Sweden Moving Towards Cashless Economy 447
cold fjord writes "Sweden is rapidly moving towards a cashless economy. How will Sweden, and other countries in the future, balance efficiency, privacy, government control, and civil liberties? Or will they do all that technology allows? 'Bills and coins represent only 3 percent of Sweden's economy, compared to an average of 9 percent in the eurozone and 7 percent in the U.S. ... The Swedish Bankers' Association says the shrinkage of the cash economy is already making an impact in crime statistics. The number of bank robberies in Sweden plunged from 110 in 2008 to 16 in 2011 — the lowest level since it started keeping records 30 years ago. It says robberies of security transports are also down. The prevalence of electronic transactions — and the digital trail they generate — also helps explain why Sweden has less of a problem with graft than countries with a stronger cash culture, such as Italy or Greece, says economics professor Friedrich Schneider of the Johannes Kepler University in Austria. The flip side is the risk of cybercrimes. According to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention the number of computerized fraud cases, including skimming, surged to nearly 20,000 in 2011 from 3,304 in 2000.'"
Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't care what sort of up sides it has. The government being able to track every last penny spent is far too frightening to even consider.
Woe Be The Day Cash Becomes Illegal (Score:4, Insightful)
Meanwhile... (Score:5, Insightful)
Visa and MasterCard couldn't be happier.
Re:Scary (Score:4, Insightful)
Here in glorious America, we will naturally let Visa track every last penny spent, because the private sector is superior, and they will simply sell that data to law enforcement, among other interested stakeholders, as part of their process of 'monetizing consumer metrics'. Free as in 'Free Market'!
I've been "cashless" for ~5 years (Score:5, Insightful)
I never carry it, just by debit cards. An additional benefit is that all your expenses are right there on paper via bank statements so you can evaluate your spending habits. I'd say that 95-99% of the time it's not a problem for my lifestyle, but I do have to hit up an ATM occasionally for the car wash. Now, when it sucks is when you don't realize you'll need cash (cover charge at a door), vending machine snacks, etc.
I can see it not working for younger people and their more dynamic, partying lifestyles but it works well at the micro level.
So how do they intend to handle... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't care what sort of up sides it has. The government being able to track every last penny spent is far too frightening to even consider.
Add to that the title of the previous story on Slashdot: The Risk of a Meltdown In the Cloud
Well. What could go wrong?
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
We understand your concern, citizen.
Here in glorious America, we will naturally let Visa track every last penny spent, because the private sector is superior, and they will simply sell that data to law enforcement, among other interested stakeholders, as part of their process of 'monetizing consumer metrics'. Free as in 'Free Market'!
It's not like everyone's oblivious to the fact that when you use Visa your purchases can be tracked. I'm aware of it every single time. But right now I have a choice to use cash if I want some discretion.
What about weed? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
explains why they have less trouble with graft (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is crime rate even mentioned? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I've been "cashless" for ~5 years (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why is crime rate even mentioned? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's such a poor point to argue, why even mention it?
Because there's no legitimate reason for eliminating cash, so they have to make something up.
If not for patents we would probably be using anonymous digital cash right now, but they delayed the introduction so long that credit cards ended up being the primary means of purchasing online.
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
Monetary lesson: Our economy is based on goods and services. Money is only a medium for the exchange of those items. What you are suggesting is really going back to a barter system.
Second lesson: The "devaluation" that you speak of is called inflation. Yes, over time an individual dollar is worth less. We also make more of these dollars for our time. This is not some giant conspiracy.
Third lesson: Gold and land do not have a constant value. That is complete lunacy. Like every other good and service its value is relative to other goods and services
Fourth lesson: If you want to use gold as a curency, go for it. It doesn't change the underlying issue that it only stands in for the goods and/or services you wish to buy/sell.
Re:Woe Be The Day Cash Becomes Illegal (Score:5, Insightful)
Gold is a terrible currency, the most overvalued material on earth. It has almost no real value. Its only practical use is as a corrosion resistant connector in basic electronics.
The currency that has had the most steady value in terms of a laborers wage over the last 4 thousand years is beer.
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
And not real money.
Gold is no more "real money" than anything else. The only value gold has is what people think it's worth, just like regular dollars.
We need to get back to sound money that "connects" to something of constant value, like gold or land.
No, we don't.
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, there's the difference between mostly cashless and completely cashless. My salary is paid direct deposit, pretty much all my bills are paid electronically. I don't really care that the government knows I pay rent and insurance and electricity and broadband and groceries and that I purchase clothes and furniture and computer equipment and whatnot. But if I don't want the government to keep track of how much liquor I drink I can pay in cash at the liquor store. I can pay in cash when I'm out partying all night. Cash is for all those transactions which I don't think it's any of the damn government's business to know about.
Every so often people come up with the "now 9x% of all trade happens electronically, we should go cashless" but it's meaningless to measure it by volume. At work some 9x% I'm in the presence of coworkers, that doesn't mean I don't want privacy when I make a bathroom break. Same with all the shit people share on Facebook, even for those that share 9x% of their life there the rest matters. Yeah, it's annoying with the black market that doesn't pay taxes, but then put the effort into tracking those who make a living that way instead of taking everyone's privacy away. I don't know if I follow every detail of every paragraph in the tax code and I don't know if anyone could but it's 95%+ correct. And that damn well better be good enough.
Re:Some disadvantages as well... (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree there are many advantages to a cashless society but one weakness has bothered me for a while.
It's not the only weakness. Try paying some kid to mow your lawn, shovel your driveway, dig a ditch without cash. Not to mention the real reasons Citizens want cash (easily accessible, accepted everywhere and untrackable) - so they can loan money, barter/trade goods without tax burden (yard sales, craigslist, etc), gamble/wager or anything else you can imagine.
Re:Woe Be The Day Cash Becomes Illegal (Score:4, Insightful)
The currency that has had the most steady value in terms of a laborers wage over the last 4 thousand years is beer.
Beer is difficult to transport (bulky compared to its value) and spoils rather quickly. Distilling it to whiskey is a better option. The Scotch-Irish figured that out a few centuries ago.
Re:So how do they intend to handle... (Score:4, Insightful)
Well you know... waiting an hour or even 8 is not really the end of the world.
So basically your argument is: 'yeah, if we eliminate cash you might have to wait a day before you can buy anything, but who cares? It's not like you need to eat or anything, is it?'
Re:Scary (Score:4, Insightful)
If you have a non zero population growth, there is no such thing as a constant value for any thing.
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not. I use cash whenever I can.
As per the article: so do the greeks and italians (and outside the euro zone, indians, arabs, bangladeshi's, pakistani's etc).
Cash sounds like a wonderful privacy tool. It's so wonderful that you can use it to dodge tax. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/goa-education-minister-detained-with-10-mn/770712/ For example.
That's kind of the thrust of the article, cash based societies are more corrupt than electronic ones, because with electronic ones you can actually track where the money is going to and from.
From TFA:
"If people use more cards, they are less involved in shadow economy activities," says Schneider, an expert on underground economies.
In Italy — where cash has been a common means of avoiding value-added tax and hiding profits from the taxman — Prime Minister Mario Monti in December put forward measures to limit cash transactions to payments under euro1,000 ($1,300), down from euro2,500 before.
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Oscar Swartz, the founder of Sweden's first Internet provider, Banhof, says a digital economy also raises privacy issues because of the electronic trail of transactions. He supports the idea of phasing out cash, but says other anonymous payment methods need to be introduced instead.
"One should be able to send money and donate money to different organizations without being traced every time," he says."
So fair enough, you think your privacy is being invaded by using electronic payments. But the government thinks you're using cash to dodge legally required taxes. And if you're both right who wins? The only way this is going to play out is asking for privacy rules surrounding the record keeping on transactions, because it's not fair to anyone when people dodge taxes, and if there's a way to track that, governments will (as they should).
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not just track us all, because it's not fair to anyone when people commit crimes? Once we lose an underlying presumption of innocence, any invasion of our privacy or erosion of personal liberties seems to make sense.
It's not my job to help the government do theirs. They can catch tax cheats with good, old fashioned detective work. To presume that my heavy use of cash is somehow illegal or fraudulent is ridiculous.
Maiden? (Score:3, Insightful)
did you mean to reference the Iron Maiden song 22 Acacia Avenue with your sample address?
anyway, I don't see how people knowing that you bought hamburger buns is a big deal.
It's not the government .... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Woe Be The Day Cash Becomes Illegal (Score:5, Insightful)
No, actually, consistent quantity is a big problem for currency because it leads to deflation and you really don't want that, it can hamstring an economy badly.
Simple example:
Suppose you and 3 friends decide to create your own little currency of sorts. You have favour tokens. Each time you do a favour for someone, they pay you in a token, and likewise you pay them when you want them to do a favour for you. Makes sure everyone is contributing. So you each start with 2 tokens.
Things work well, your little economy burgeons as you all do favours for each other and the tokens move around quickly. Other people notice this and want in. So you let them, however new joiners don't get any tokens to start, they have to earn it. Soon you have 8 people. Now there's only one token per person total. So if someone does a favour, someone else is left with no tokens. The economy start to get hamstrung. You have cases where someone wants to do a favour for someone else, but can't because that person has no token and nobody needs a favour from them at the moment.
Then it grows larger, you get 12 people. Now at best there will be 4 people without tokens at all times, and there can be more. Your economy is stalling in a bad way. People have to wait around until the person who wants them to do a favour can do one for someone else and get a token so they can do their favour.
Now all this could be solved simply be expanding the amount of currency. If as the economy grew, more currency was added, this problem would be avoided. This might not only happen when new people join, but just when more is being done. You start doing so much for each other that 2 tokens per person just isn't enough, you need more to keep things flowing quickly.
Money is just something to facilitate trade, no more no less. It needs to do so well and for that, it does need to grow, at least until your economy stops growing.
Re:Scary (Score:4, Insightful)
but gold and land do have a constant scarcity,
They don't. Gold definitely undergoes supply changes (what do you think happens when a company finds and opens a new gold mine?), and even land undergoes supply changes: land is lost and gained from the sea, becomes unusable due to natural and man-made disasters, and has its use changed due to social and regulatory changes. And finally, the challenges you refer to in your parenthesis are the reason we aren't on the gold standard anymore.
I agree that an all-digital economy makes electronic robbery of various forms much easier and much more invisible. But that's where regulations and laws can help. The question is: are we willing to support the laws necessary to have a smoothly running digital economy, or are we going to throw our hands up, say "government is evil" , and have the worst of both worlds?
Re:Scary (Score:4, Insightful)
For me, the convenience of being able to track my own spending far outweighs my ability to care if the government can subpoena where I buy my morning coffee from. I understand (and agree with) your concern, but using payment cards offers a huge number of incentives that cash does not and can not.
And FYI, plenty of criminal transactions occur in the plastic world - and the red tape imposed by the government in trying to prevent that makes my job a lot more painful (and risky) than it needs to be. Criminals are always going to ruin things for everyone else; doubly so when it comes to getting paid. Sorry, that's just reality. Blame stupid law enforcement (see also: war on photography)
Re:Woe Be The Day Cash Becomes Illegal (Score:3, Insightful)
Apparently, the main problem with your tokens is that you can't pay a fraction of a token.