Internet Responds To Racist Article, Gets Author Fired 1208
In the wake of the Trayvon Martin tragedy in February, many publications posted articles about "the talk" — a phrase denoting the conversation many black parents have at some point with their children to explain the realities of racism. Last Thursday, writer John Derbyshire penned an article titled "The Talk: Nonblack Version," which codified a similar set of lessons he had given to his children over the years. Unfortunately, those lessons turned out to be horribly racist themselves. "The remarkably long list of how to teach children to stay safe by avoiding black people goes on for two pages and Derbyshire contends is a true lifesaver. There is no irony or clarification that, perhaps, this is a joke, no matter how much you may want to find a disclaimer after you’re done reading." Reader concealment writes to point out that the internet and the media vocalized their disgust quickly and at length, and now Derbyshire has been fired from his position at the conservative National Review magazine (the offending article appeared in a different publication called Taki's Magazine).
This seems a bit one-sided... (Score:3, Interesting)
Why is one list racist and not the other? Is it because the color of skin each list is warning you about? Isn't that really messed up? I mean, making those kinds of judgments based on skin color is really messed up in the first place. That's a given. But isn't really weird for it to be somehow OK to warn against one skin color but not the other?
Re:Few to admit it, but a lot of parents teach thi (Score:5, Interesting)
Humans are as tribal as they want to be. In Ireland there has been a HUGE influx of immigrants from places like Eastern Europe and sub Saharan Africa, something like one in six people were born outside the country according to the most recent census. And this is just in the last ten or so years. Backlash? None. Rise of right wing groups? None. Race riots such as have graced the streets of most European countries and the UK? Zero. And if there's one thing guaranteed to bring out any latent xenophobia its a sudden massive influx of foreigners.
Its a very open and inclusive society. So much for the stereotypes.
One time... (Score:5, Interesting)
... (and I suppose everyone has these kinds of stories) but when I was a teenager I used to live in this really dumpy run-down apartment block. We had befriended a black family that lived downstairs and I used to play basketball frequently with the two boys. They were quite a bit younger than me - I was 16-17 at the time and they were 10-12. Anyway, one day we're playing basketball at the elementary school playground across the street and I said, just joking around, "blah blah blah, my brother" and the youngest kid said to me, almost angrily, "you AIN'T my brother." That really threw me. Here was just a little black kid hanging around with this older white boy from the neighborhood and it was all fun and games up to a point but when I referred to him as "my brother" it was like everything hateful he'd been indoctrinated in - and, yes, it was clear he'd been carefully indoctrinated - about whites came up. I learned reverse-racism was alive and while and I must say it shocked me. One can think everything is hunky-dory and that one is being all culturally enlightened by regularly hanging out with black people, but there is a whole separate side to the culture that is never revealed to you and certainly nothing about how they really tend to feel about whites (which, admittedly, is often justified by narrow-minded and racist whites which an average white kid doesn't ever experience). The racial divide still has a very, very long way to go.
Holy fuck (Score:5, Interesting)
Among your fellow citizens are forty million who identify as black, and whom I shall refer to as black. The cumbersome (and MLK-noncompliant) term “African-American” seems to be in decline, thank goodness. “Colored” and “Negro” are archaisms. What you must call “the ‘N’ word” is used freely among blacks but is taboo to nonblacks.
While it's dangerous to make generalizations across an entire section of the population, especially one that is only defined by a superficial characteristic (I imagine that there are quite a few black people who are seriously offended by the use of the word "nigger" even if it is uttered by another black person), it seems to be largely the social norm that the word is OK to use if you're black, and offensive if you're not. That's a bullshit standard, and it bothers me. Either it's OK for everyone, or it's OK for no one.
Also, he's absolutely right about "African-American" being a stupid term that needs to die. Not only does it fail to recognize that many people feel no particular connection to their ancestry, African or otherwise, but it assumes that every person with dark skin is of African descent. I went to college with a (black) dude who was from Jamaica. Should he have been called "African-American", even though he was neither African, nor American? Stupid.
Re:Holy fuck (Score:2, Interesting)
it seems to be largely the social norm that the word is OK to use if you're black, and offensive if you're not. That's a bullshit standard, and it bothers me. Either it's OK for everyone, or it's OK for no one.
It is really a matter of context. It would not make sense to call someone that word when they could not call you that same word too. If you are content to be called that word in a group, then it would be ok.
Help! (Score:5, Interesting)
This is The Talk that never ends... (Score:4, Interesting)
I went to the Trayvon Martin March held in the city closest to us. As a white woman, I walked up to the City Hall thinking I'd be on the outside looking in. When I made my leave, I realized that one day, I would have to give my blond-haired, blue-eyed son The Talk--not because he'd be a target for discrimination, but he will no doubt witness acts of racism and discrimination. He will have friends of all races as our once White Bread Town, USA has become much more diverse. I want him to know that I got 'The Talk' from my racist grandmother, someone too stuck in the 30's to understand where the world was going in present-time, and how that was wrong. We talk about the curse we give our kids with religious indoctrination, and that should apply to any views: political, racial, etc.
And if I may add, if given the choice to walk down a dark street with a group of black guys on the left, white boys on the right, I'm hanging a louie. Especially if the white guys are of the frat-boy variety. I've dealt with this first-hand. Walking around on the dangerous North Side of the city I marched in is seen as an incredible risk, but I've never been harassed in doing so. I go there all the time, just for a Puerto Rican bakery, ffs. Walking by a fraternity on a prestigious college campus? They were yards and yards away, and I walked away feeling dirty. From everything I've dealt with in life, 'The Talk' given to black men seems to include more lessons about respect than what the white 'n rich boys get.
Re:Few to admit it, but a lot of parents teach thi (Score:5, Interesting)
It's really more complicated than even that. If you just look at the stats alone, they paint a really unflattering picture of blacks - it's only when you control for socioeconomic factors that things get muddier. Black parents have black children, poor (financially) parents have poor children - even some time after the end of segregation, it continues to have lingering demographic effects.
What shall we do with the Negro? (Score:5, Interesting)
by Frederick Douglass, a freed slave and prominent statesmen before, during, and after the War Between the States.
"What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us!
Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us!
If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall.
And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!
Re:Few to admit it, but a lot of parents teach thi (Score:5, Interesting)
And white men make up the vast, vast majority of serial killers and pedophiles. I guess we shouldn't let them be teachers, etc, right? It's just 'fact-based statistics', right?
Right about the serial killers but wrong about the paedophiles [wordpress.com].
Re:Few to admit it, but a lot of parents teach thi (Score:2, Interesting)
With the black population, the big blinking correlation that racists like to ignore is to poverty. Blacks are overwhelmingly poor, and given the power of generational wealth in this country, there is every reason to believe that hundreds of years of slavery and racism have contributed a great deal to their poverty. They, like other poor people, score lower on IQ tests and commit more violent crimes. Practically any other remarkable statistic about the black population can be explained by historical racism leading to current poverty.
I submit that most practical benefit people think they are getting from their racism is purely accidental. They are inadvertently using skin color to screen people by economic status. How sure are you that you wouldn't have also your ass kicked if you had instead transplanted into an impoverished, rural, predominantly white school for being the rich, suburban white kid? Think back on all of your past experiences that you believe vindicate your racism. Do you believe that poor white people wouldn't have been capable of the same?
NPR shell game (Score:3, Interesting)
NPR claims to get a tiny amount of money from the government. But every time Congress talks about cutting their budget NPR claims it would put them out of business.
Which is it? Well, it depends on how you define "government funded". Basically, NPR plays a shell game to launder most of the money they get (indirectly) from the government.The donations from listeners go back to NPR to make it look like they're funded from that source, then the local stations and producers of NPR content get government funding to replace it, which NPR keeps off their books. It's a Byzantine accounting system that obfuscates where money is really being used.
Re:This seems a bit one-sided... (Score:4, Interesting)
No, they both explicitly mention skin color, not attitudes like racism. I resent the implication that because I'm white I'm any more racist than anybody else. And most of us (black, white, whatever) are racist to an extent. We all prefer people who 'look like us' or look like the people we're used to.
Now, the 'good black people' section I think is where he starts being really ridiculous. In my experience in living in predominantly black neighborhoods, the number of people who will be decent to you far outnumber the ones who will hurt you for being in the wrong neighborhood. But the ones who will hurt you for being in the wrong neighborhood are numerous enough that a bit of extra wariness is worthwhile. And, in my experience, those neighborhoods do tend to be more violent on average.
I also don't feel this is about people's skin color. I would feel very differently about living in a neighborhood dominated by recent immigrants from Africa, for example. But I strongly suspect the author does. I think the author really is being not-kosher. But his list is not the reason why.
Re:This seems a bit one-sided... (Score:4, Interesting)
He did not say that one race was better than another. He said that people of one race in a particular country statistically have different behavior patterns than another race in the same country, and then made a few inferences.
Instead of calling him a racist, point out the flaws in his data and logic.
Re:This seems a bit one-sided... (Score:5, Interesting)
I think it's the content of the end of the list, 10f-h, and the specific calling-out of black people in events where any person should be considered a threat (10i).
I strongly agree with this. I felt the exact same way reading the list. It was like "Well, that's reasonable, and that..." followed by "WTF?! You have to be dangerously prejudiced for thinking that."
Re:Few to admit it, but a lot of parents teach thi (Score:2, Interesting)
The world != the United States.
If we are collecting personal anecdotes, I would like to talk about my experience in Benin, West African country between Nigeria and Togo. Benin used to be one of the most important sources of black slaves, so I guess (I'm not an expert) that many African Americans have roots there.
I was there for a month doing volunteer work and travelling, part of it on my own. Often I would look in every direction and I would be the only white person in sight. And everyone could recognize that I was a foreigner from a mile away. Never had any problem or was harassed by anyone (besides a guy trying to sell me sunglasses), and I received a lot of kindness and honest interest from locals. Well, once a woman started shouting at me because I took a picture in her direction (I did not realize she was there), which I know well it is very offensive in their culture.
So don't talk about how blacks hate whites and viceversa. The racial conflict in the US is the product of US history.
Re:Few to admit it, but a lot of parents teach thi (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe the quote from Juan Williams you're looking for is the following:
Look, Bill, I'm not a bigot. You know the kind of books I've written about the civil rights movement in this country. But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous.
It may be a bit pedantic, but that statement is definitely not racist. You can argue it's bigoted, but I wouldn't say it's racist at all. Muslim is not a race, and if you take his statement at face value, it's not even Muslims that make him nervous. Only Muslims that choose to wear Muslim garb on a plane. Not to mention that saying he gets worried and nervous doesn't seem to me as if it should be very controversial at all. Even the claim about identifying primarily as Muslims is still just presented as what's going through his mind when he sees them.
I'll admit to not having the whole context around the statement, but from what I see he never claimed any of those thoughts were fair to the person in question. It speaks of an instinctive response that could speak as much of the culture of country and the nature of what our mass media exposes us to that it would have become an instinctive reaction. Nor is such a statement without merit in discussion.
If that sort of reaction is normal, perhaps we need to rethink how the topic is presented in the media. Or maybe that information would actually be appreciated by Muslims who might not even have considered how their choice of clothing could influence people's first impression of them. They would still have the right to choose to wear that garb, but perhaps for some of them, it isn't important and they want to avoid it. Regardless, I think discussion of this level should be encouraged rather than squelched.
A Talk, sure, just not That one (Score:5, Interesting)
(10g) Before voting for a black politician, scrutinize his/her character much more carefully than you would a white.
(11) The mean intelligence of blacks is much lower than for whites. The least intelligent ten percent of whites have IQs below 81; forty percent of blacks have IQs that low. Only one black in six is more intelligent than the average white; five whites out of six are more intelligent than the average black. These differences show in every test of general cognitive ability that anyone, of any race or nationality, has yet been able to devise. They are reflected in countless everyday situations. “Life is an IQ test.”
(13) In that pool of forty million, there are nonetheless many intelligent and well-socialized blacks. (I’ll use IWSB as an ad hoc abbreviation.) You should consciously seek opportunities to make friends with IWSBs. In addition to the ordinary pleasures of friendship, you will gain an amulet against potentially career-destroying accusations of prejudice.
(15) Unfortunately the demand is greater than the supply, so IWSBs are something of a luxury good, like antique furniture or corporate jets: boasted of by upper-class whites and wealthy organizations, coveted by the less prosperous. To be an IWSB in present-day US society is a height of felicity rarely before attained by any group of human beings in history. Try to curb your envy: it will be taken as prejudice (see paragraph 13).
Prejudice = fear (Score:4, Interesting)
At least it does for me. Look, I grew up in a small isolated town of 3000 or so. All white population. Very little overt prejudice against anyone of another race. It just didn't come up. OK, I grow up, go to college, then move to a large (1 million +) city. Since I'm fresh out of college, I live in a poor black neighborhood where I'm threatened at bus stops, had my car torched, had bottles thrown at me and been mugged. 7 incidents of that nature in 7 years there. 6 out of those 7 incidents involved a black person.
So, I wasn't raised to hate anyone. Before I got to the city, I wasn't scared on anyone based on race. After 7 years, however, I had developed a finely tuned paranoia regarding young black men. I avoided them on the subway, bus and especially bus stops. I would cross the street to avoid crowds of them. Each incident (other than the white panhandler who tried to beat me with an umbrella and caused me to start avoiding street people) made that fear a little worse.
Is that fair or rational? No. There were plenty of exceptions, and plenty of decent, friendly black people too, but the little reptile in the back of my brain doesn't work that way. He's all about survival and he frightens easily. He's got nothing else to go on but appearance, and black skin with "African" facial features in a bad neighborhood is a "be scared" signal. And this little reptile in my head, he's got a great memory, but he's not under my conscious control.
As long as there's no fear, I have no problem when I go to lunch with black male co-workers, but then, we're not in a bad neighborhood, my co-workers are all smart, well educated and funny, and while at least one of them could take me apart with one arm, he is as about as threatening as the average teddy bear.
Some people on both sides need "the talk" to be scared. Others of us come by it quite by accident. Sad, but true.
Re:Few to admit it, but a lot of parents teach thi (Score:2, Interesting)
> So to answer your question: Yes.
You do capture the reality correctly. But should it be? An opinion writer fired for expressing an opinion.... at a completely different forum that the one doing the firing? Juan Williams fired from NPR for saying something on FNS or Derb fired from NR for writing something at Taki. I can totally understand when NR fired Ann Coulter for her 9/12 column since it was published on NR. But really, this fire at the first politically incorrect thought has to stop. Of course it only works one way. Lefties get away with saying the most vile things and if the stink is really bad they issue an apology and move on.
Funny thing, every few months some lefty (like the POTUS or AG Holder, etc) issues a call for a 'frank discussion of race' or some such, or calls white people 'cowards' for refusing to have a 'dialog on race' yet the second somebody actually takes them serious and issues a response to some of their race baiting (as Derb was doing btw.) the trap is sprung; they are branded a 'racist' and expunged from polite society. Meanwhile Rev. Sharpton incites riots that actually KILL PEOPLE, launches race baiting hoaxes and is using his perch as an MSNBC host to attempt to incite mass riots and nobody is saying a damned word... and if he succeeds will almost certainly go unprosecuted. It is the imbalance that is objectionable. Were Rev. Al as unwelcome in polite society as David Duke we would be making progress toward a color blind society.
But now lemme add a few notes here. Defending Derb's (or Juan Williams) right to say what he said doesn't imply I agree with it. On the other had I do agree with everything Ann Coulter wrote on 9/12, especially in light of her personally losing a close friend the day before. And on the gripping hand agree NR had to sack her, that wasn't the sort of thing that NR does. Such is life. Especially didn't like Derb's bits about IQ since that is underdetermined at best.
Intelligence testing was at about the level of phrenelogy when all serious inquiry was halted by political correctness from the 'rational, scientific progressives' as CrimeThink of the first order. So we can't say anything of value on the subject because it is forbidden to even ask those sort of questions. I believe it is obvious that progressives believe blacks are inferior, both when they were mostly overt racists themselves (look it up people, it IS) and now when they design policies based on an assumption black people are incapable of making it without the constant assistance of white limousine liberals. But that is more likely a defect on the progressives part than anythng connected to reality. At any rate the whole American experiment depends upon "All men are created equal..." so any system that requires treating people differently based on things like race, color, gender, etc. should be avoided to the maximum extent possible. (Can't be entirely because some corner cases simply can't be handwaved away, especially gender. But for most practical purposes it can be abstracted away and should.)
Re:Few to admit it, but a lot of parents teach thi (Score:5, Interesting)
I went to a 100% minority school (I'm white. Even while there, it was 100% minority, as a desegregation plan had me attending classes there while not enrolled there, since so many incorrectly point out the contradiction/inconsistency of a white person talking about their experiences at a 100% minority school). I walked home with a friend one day. Children (up to about age 14) in the neighborhood ran back into their homes and shouted loud enough for everyone to hear "there's a white person walking down the street." If anyone had wanted to do anything bad to me, I'm sure nobody would have seen a thing, despite the fact that almost everyone there at that time walked out of their homes or peeked out the window at me. For most, their school teachers, welfare workers, and the police are the only white people they see. There was no animosity. I'm sure most were just making sure I wasn't a government employee wanting to do them harm.
You are right that there is a difference between "should be" and "is" but that doesn't mean "is" should be taught as if it's somehow "right." The rules are the same everywhere. Blend in or stand out, and standing out can get you in trouble. Doesn't matter if you are in Israel, Texas, Iraq, California, or either of the two unnamed areas you reference in your story.
. I'm not sure, as I learned to avoid these situations altogether by keeping my dumb ass out of where I wasn't wanted.
You found the racism. It isn't "stay away from blacks". It's "stay aware of your surroundings." Racializing it by your dad was wrong. It's incorrect (though generally good enough), even if easier to express. I felt safer as the one unusual white person in a black neighborhood than in many of the hick white areas I've been.
Re:Few to admit it, but a lot of parents teach thi (Score:5, Interesting)
When someone starts a statement with:
"I'm not a bigot." it means you are
It's just like "I don't want to offend, but.." to which the person goes to say something offensive, or when someone says "It's not about the money" when it's actually all about the money. People do this all the time and once you spot it, it's pretty difficult to ignore.
--
BMO
No the GP has a good point (Score:4, Interesting)
It isn't a matter of fairness, but of effectiveness. If you want to make a word harmless, you have two choices:
1) Stop using it, and pressure everyone to stop using it. Eliminate it from people's vocabularies. Over a few generations, the word will stop being spoken, and it'll start to sound old fashion. It'll be the kind of thing less and less people even know, and those that do will see it as an anachronism, the kind of thing you only hear in old movies. You will have then succeeded. An example would be the term "Nip" to derogatorily refer to Japanese people. It comes form the shortening of Nipponese which comes from Nippon, the romanticized version of the native name of Japan. In WWII, it was a popular slur, particularly with troops. Now most people don't know what it means (hence my need to explain it) and those that do find it sounds antiquated, and don't use it in normal speech. It is a dead word and thus not used to hurt people.
2) Make the word a term of endearment and your own. Make it something that everyone says as a compliment for a certain set of characteristics/action/whatever. Make it the kind of thing that is ok for everyone to say, everyone to be called, and then the venom has been drained out. It is very ineffective at an insult because it is used so often as the opposite. Geek (and nerd) would be an example. It used to mean a fool or freak, later particularly circus freaks. Then it was used as an insult to overly intellectual/bookish individuals... Who decided to own it. We are now proudly geeks, we are happy about it, it is a good thing to be. People want to be geeks, they like geeks and so on. It doesn't work as an insult because it has become praise. Everyone is free to use it.
Those are the only two effective options. If you have a word and say "Only certain people can use it, it's ok for them and is a good thing, if others use it it is racist/mean/harmful/whatever," then you are being ineffective. You insure it doesn't die out, yet retains its negative connotations and can be used as a slur. So if you want it dealt with you have to pick one, doesn't matter which they'll both work equally well (so the choice should be based on other merits) and go with it.
Re:Few to admit it, but a lot of parents teach thi (Score:5, Interesting)
Lets be honest folks...how many here think that the average white person, just minding their own business, would walk through say Harlem or Watts or any other major big city all black neighborhood unscathed?
The bar I go to most often is a redneck bar smack in the middle of the blackest ghetto in town, I stagger home from there often. The worst that happens walking home is some black guy trying to sell me dope, or a bum begging for spare hope and change. Almost every shooting in the last year has been within six blocks of the place, but it's always either black on black or white on white.
Now what if it were the other way? in most places the worst that would happen to the black man would be a cop asking him what he was doing
Tell that to Travon Martin's mother. And had it been Martin who was a neighborhood watch guy and shot Zimmerman while Zimmerman was unarmed, you can bet your ass he'd have been in jail that very night, probably held without bail.
And it isn't just blacks who fear the police. All poor people fear the police.