Mandatory Brake-Override Proposed For All Cars 911
Hugh Pickens writes "The LA Times reports that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration wants to require automakers to include a brake-throttle override system in all their cars and light trucks to help drivers regain control when a vehicle accelerates suddenly when the throttle becomes stuck or jammed. 'America's drivers should feel confident that any time they get behind the wheel they can easily maintain control of their vehicles — especially in the event of an emergency,' says Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. The move came after a fiery 2009 Lexus crash after a floor mat was improperly installed and may have trapped the accelerator pedal, causing the vehicle to race down California Highway 125 outside San Diego at more than 100 miles per hour, crashing and bursting into flames, killing an off-duty California Highway Patrol Officer and three members of his family. That crash led to a recall of 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles to fix the floor mat problem, and Toyota issued millions more recall notices to fix sticking gas pedals and other issues. Now Toyota has made a brake-override system standard, implementing it in all vehicles the company sold by the end of 2010, and most other automakers offer such a system on many of their vehicles or are adding it. Other automakers would have about two years to comply with the proposal (PDF). 'We learned as part of the comprehensive NASA and NHTSA studies of high-speed unintended acceleration that brake-override systems could help drivers avoid crashes,' says NHTSA Administrator David Strickland."
Just turn off the car? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly, the only downside is the steering wheel lock. But, that is still a better option than crashing at 130mph.
That's what brakes are for (Score:5, Insightful)
A properly functioning brake system will be able to overcome any force the engine can can produce. If you stand on both pedals, your car should go nowhere.
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:5, Insightful)
How about just put it in Neutral? The brakes will still work even if the accellerator is forced all the way down. Ray LaHood has been in the news more than any previous SecTrans, and has been at the forefront of all sorts of questionable new regulations (ban on text messaging, ban on using a phone at all even if it's hands free, ban on any sort of moving display like a GPS, etc.) He's definitely trying to make a name for himself, and it's costing us money as well as freedom.
This is going ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Fortunately, they seem to be accounting for certain intended accelerator/brake operation in the design. Or they'll just screw up the drag racing off a traffic light tradition. I just hope they leave it off cars with manual transmissions and clutches. If you can't figure out how to stop one of those, you deserve all that Darwin has to offer.
It's confirmed (Score:5, Insightful)
The government wants cars to be unaffordable. They want to ladle so many requirements on building them that you'll need a six figure income to buy one. Sheesh.
I grew up in the 70's with a VW beetle as our family car. It didn't have anti-lock brakes, a third brake light, air conditioning, air-bags, a computer, or annoying "Door Ajar" voice. It had thin doors. Hell, it didn't even have a radiator.Those old bug engines were air-cooled. They were so light and easy to maintain, my dad overhauled one in our yard. He literally unbolted the engine from the motor mounts, lifted it up and out with his own hands, worked on it, then put it back. All without the help of pulleys, computer analysis kits, or microchips. You could drive to forever and back on a tank of gas. It was the most reliable car we ever owned.
And now, you couldn't build one in America if you wanted to, because the government would forbid it. "Inherently unsafe", they'd call it. They'd produce 3,000 pages of requirements to be filled before you could actually make one. And yet my family drove one for almost two decades, and it was safe, cheap, and reliable. So yeah, I do think that the government wants to price Americans out of the auto market sometimes.
A bit excessive (Score:4, Insightful)
I can help but think this is a bit excessive. I could imagine if this were a common occurrence to where one had a reasonable chance of the accelerator being stuck, but I dont imagine it is.
I only know one person in San Diego driving a Toyota where that happened. Granted, he and his family were killed, but there are lots of people killed in freak accidents.
We cant make the world totally bubble wrapped. I dont want to pay for it at least.
I don't know how it is in the US.... (Score:4, Insightful)
But in Europe, all cars have to have (by law) brakes that have enough stopping power to overcome the engine. The result is that hitting the brakes will slow you down despite full throttle. This will eventually lead to a stall of the engine and a complete stop. You will damage your car, but at the point you're using this lives are at stake. Does this not apply in the US?
Then again, I've only ever really driven manuals, where in such a situation (not that it ever happened to me) I can just lift the clutch and coast to the side. Can you not shift an automatic transmission from "D" to "N" when accelerating? I've never tried tbh, but I can't think of why that wouldn't work...
Also, what is wrong with turning off the engine? Turn the key so the ignition is off, and then turn it part way. This is usually enough to stop the steering lock engaging, while still not starting the engine again.
I've never heard of this being a problem in Europe, honestly. We have automatics here too, but I've yet to hear of any runaway cars. Is this a US specific problem? If so what would cause it to be so? (or have I just missed out on these events in Europe)
Also, the BBC provide a nice article on what to do if you are in a runaway car: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8498257.stm [bbc.co.uk]
seriously?? (Score:4, Insightful)
How often does this happen? (does it statistically matter?)
NO!
There are so many other things which should be recommended as mandatory.
How about mandatory bluetooth integration in ALL cars to prevent drivers from using their hands to do anything other than drive?
THAT would save more lives than are lost due to "speeding out of control".
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:5, Insightful)
I would rather ruin the engine than kill myself. Your results may vary...
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple, they panic. I know everyone on here thinks they are far too smart, and this could never happen to them, but it can. When your car starts accelerating wildly, your brain goes into 'I am about to be killed' mode. You do not think, you react. Your instincts take over. If you are an experienced driver, your only instinct is 'mash the brakes as hard as possible'. When that doesn't work, you get even more panicky. Now your instincts are 'curl up and hope for the best'.
Unless you have been specially trained, your instincts are not going to be 'turn off the key (but not so far as to lock the wheel)', or 'put it in neutral', or any of the other ideas people think are so obvious.
This is also why a child can think of the 'turn off the key' option: first, they are not fully aware of the terrible danger they are in, so they don't panic. Second, they have no driving instinct to hit the brakes. They are calm enough to think of another option.
My car already has one (Score:3, Insightful)
My car already has one, it is called the clutch. You press that and the engine can rev all it wants without the car speeding up.
I suggest we make all cars without this much needed safety device illegal.
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let us just keep making stuff more expensive and harder to get so that the stupidest people in society can continue to pass on their genes.
Eh? (Score:4, Insightful)
If you DO NOT KNOW how to stop your car should a component fail, you're driving without due care and attention. I'm not saying you *won't* hit anything, but if something major like your brakes fail or accelerator jams, then you should know what to do. Depending on the car and the damage you don't care about causing to it, this can be anything from clutch-down, to forcibly out of gear, to handbrake, to clipping kerbs deliberately, to double-de-clutching or just plain switching off the engine (seriously, if you're going to zoom at 100kph out of your control, and you've tried the obvious, fuck what you've heard about losing power-steering - you'll still HAVE steering but in the worse case of steering lock coming on, it's a damn sight better to brake in a straight line with no engine fighting you than careening about the place at speed trying to weave in and out of crap that doesn't know what's happened to you).
If you DO NOT KNOW what to do: Find out. Before you use the car again. Hell, find a "test track" like an empty car park late at night and try it out (GENTLY!) if you want. Be shocked by how ineffective a handbrake can be, and how much it can affect your steering on some cars. See how long it takes a non-powered car to start versus a powered one.
But if you don't do this, really, you're driving a car that you don't know how to drive. Any idiot can press the throttle in a strange car without thinking. But you should KNOW how the car works from a driver's perspective to the point of knowing what to do in an emergency FIRST. For 99% of cars, this isn't a problem - they are pretty much the same.
But if you notice that you're in an auto and you've never driven an auto before - look up what to do with it. If you're in a start/stop electric crap, LOOK UP WHAT TO DO WITH IT. Some of those cars have literally computer-like-resets - hold the button down for 5. During those 5 seconds (less than the recommended 2-second gap between you and the car in front), you're going to need to do something else too. Find out what will work, whether in theory or practice.
I find it quite horrendous that more people "know" you should wait for your car to sink to the bottom of the river and the pressure to equalise before getting out of it (WRONG! Get out of there before it dips below the waterline and you won't have any problems! Once the water pressure is on it, that door won't open until you're already in danger of drowning) than know how to bring an out-of-control car to a stop.
LEARN YOUR CAR. It's doing everything it can to save you all the time, and most of its cost is from safety featurees, and you can't be bothered to learn how to stop it in an emergency?
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:2, Insightful)
Ray LaHood has been in the news more than any previous SecTrans, and has been at the forefront of all sorts of questionable new regulations (ban on text messaging, ban on using a phone at all even if it's hands free, ban on any sort of moving display like a GPS, etc.) He's definitely trying to make a name for himself, and it's costing us money as well as freedom.
How many people died from terrorism in 2001?
How many people died from automobile accidents in 2001?
How come we're sheep about the expenditures and loss of freedoms after 9/11, but still whine about the expense and "loss of freedom" for new highway safety rules?
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't most cars today have rev limiters? Certainly the Lexus from the article had one. Not the best for the engine perhaps, but not catastrophic either (I quite regularly hit the limiter in my Acura, though to be fair, it's only engaged momentarily). Even if the result were to throw a rod, it would still be better than winding things up to very high speeds and then losing control and crashing ...
I think the big thing is how many people would be calm enough to engage the tools (such as turn off the key, put the car in neutral, engage the brake override) even if they were available.
I once nearly drove my truck through a restaurant wall ... I'd realized I'd dropped something while getting into the truck after I'd gotten in and put the truck into reverse. I can't explain why, but I thought to myself, "I don't need to put it in park, I'll just put it in neutral, hop out and pick it up". So with that in mind I pulled the shifter from reverse down through neutral and into drive as I was hopping out. As you might imagine, the truck started forward up and onto the sidewalk. So, instead of calmly reaching into the truck and a) pushing the shifter into Neutral, b) turning off the key, c) pulling on the parking brake, I chose to d) try to jump into the moving truck and step on the brake. The truck is a little higher than most cars, so you have to step up into it ... so as I was hopping on one foot forward while trying to put my foot on the brake, the truck was climbing the curb. The result was that my foot gave the brake only a glancing blow, after which it slipped onto the accelerator ... Well, now the truck lurched forward and across the sidewalk into the bushes on its path towards the restaurant wall ... I stopped it with about 6' to spare. You should have seen the expression on the people sitting in the booth next to the window as this truck was lurching toward them. (Note that they were like deer in the headlights too ... unlike TV or movies, no one was diving out of the booth to get away, they were just there looking at a 2 1/2 ton truck coming right at them)
Sometimes people's brains (at least sometimes my brain) doesn't always arrive at the best choice of action :-(
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:4, Insightful)
You should switch to neutral. If you turn off the engine, you loose power steering, brake boosters, and if you go too far, can even lock up the steering wheel. If you're driving with a manual transmission is even easier, just step on the clutch pedal.
A car with a stuck accelerator is going to have absolutely no vacuum to assist with braking, and in case you have never tried to stop a car that has a non-functioning vacuum system, it is quite hard. Add to that the possibility that the car accelerated to a particularly high speed before you took action, and getting the car to stop even after you disengage the transmission will still be challenging.
Re:Wait, wtf, NASA again?!? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm starting to doubt this rather blunt kind of assessment. I suspect NASA could be great at rockets, if they weren't used as a political football over them. Watching a congressman try and railroad into yet another solid-fuel booster system because it happens to be in his district has really made me suspect that there's a lot of under the table bullshit they have to put up with in that regard.
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:5, Insightful)
congratulations. everyone just answered like car guys. fits in well where everyone normally answers like superior computer geeks. You're expecting the average soccer mom to respond properly to an emergency situation where the car isn't behaving as she expected. Or grandma. or the new 16 year old kid behind the wheel of a minivan.
Some automatic override of a recognized possible fault condition sounds reasonable.
Re:It's confirmed (Score:5, Insightful)
The government wants cars to be unaffordable. They want to ladle so many requirements on building them that you'll need a six figure income to buy one. Sheesh.
[...]
And now, you couldn't build [a 70s VW Beetle] in America if you wanted to, because the government would forbid it. "Inherently unsafe", they'd call it.
This is what a post based on ideology sounds like. The reality of the situation is wildly different.
First and foremost, almost all new cars are drive by wire: A brake override is just another setting in the car's ECU.
Second, if you want to drive in a tin can, go ahead. Build one yourself and get it licensed as an experimental/kit car.
Lights all around, a horn, mirrors, a speedo, a seat belt*, some wheels, and brakes. Don't violate any noise ordinances and you're set.
BTW - a 1970 beetle would cost ~$10,000 after adjusting for inflation.
Add in the optional airconditioning and you can buy yourself a Nissan Versa,
built to modern safety standards, for the same inflation adjusted price.
*optional if you're getting your creation licensed as a motorcycle
Re:Just turn off the car? (Score:5, Insightful)
The driver's biggest mistake was likely not taking the time beforehand to familiarize himself with the vehicle's unfamiliar controls. Had the driver been prepared, this tragedy could have likely been avoided.
Yes, that is true, but no, he shouldn't have had to do that. We standardize certain controls on a car for a reason. Steering wheels are in the same place, pedals are in the same place, etc.
I see no reason why we shouldn't standardize the 'Cut the car off' manner also. Keyless cars should be required to have (In addition to this brake disengage) a little switch, right where the key was, that you can twist, exactly like a key, and cut the engine off.
This isn't just for drivers. What if the driver has a heart attack or something and collapses, and a passenger is trying to stop the car? Or, here's a fun one, what if someone is working on their car and wants to make it sure cannot be turned on while they're under the hood, and that someone in the house can't innocently press the remote ignition button?
There should be a damn mechanical switch in keyless cars. It doesn't have to be a 'key' that is removable, it doesn't have to ever be used, but there should be a switch that physically disables power to the starter and fuel pump, in an accessible location that everyone knows, period.
Re:CHP officer's driving ability (Score:4, Insightful)
Not sure what this says about the "Highway Patrol Officer"'s abilities as a driver. If he couldn't manage either of those then this new system won't save him.
I have read elsewhere that the retired CHP officer's car (a Lexus) was actually determined to have an improperly installed floormat. It still begs the question of why he didn't put the car in neutral (an option even with automatic transmission). Overall, the situation suggests he may not have been thinking clearly.
The media's periodic focus on unintended accelleration always focuses on the cars, when rational observers almost always conclude the failing part of the system was the driver. Car magazines have done these articles debunking, explaining, etc a number of times with these cycles. The general public doesn't care, doesn't want to learn, and wants it to be some else's fault, preferably someone with deep pockets. Media serves up exactly that. :-(
Re:Wait, wtf, NASA again?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think a better UI would have been to just use a key instead of a stupid fiddily button.