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Oracle and Google Spar Over Whether Programming Languages Can Be Copyrighted 316

Posted by Soulskill
from the makes-perfect-sense-minus-the-sense dept.
pcritter writes "With the Oracle v. Google trial date set for next Monday, the Judge has asked Google and Oracle to take a position on whether a programming language is copyrightable. This presumably relates to whether Google violated copyright by using a variant of the Java language and its APIs in the Android framework. Oracle, who thinks it can be, has used J.R.R. Tolkein's Elvish language as an examples (PDF) of a language that can be copyrighted. Google disagrees (PDF)."
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Oracle and Google Spar Over Whether Programming Languages Can Be Copyrighted

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  • My ass (Score:2, Interesting)

    by HBI (604924) <pelander@eyemu d . c om> on Friday April 13, 2012 @02:33PM (#39677339) Homepage Journal

    A! Elbereth Gilthoniel!
    silivren penna míriel
    o menel aglar elenath,
    Gilthoniel, A! Elbereth!

    We still remember, we who dwell
    In this far land beneath the trees
    The starlight on the western seas

  • What is Java? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by swm (171547) * <swmcd@world.std.com> on Friday April 13, 2012 @02:39PM (#39677461) Homepage

    The technical definition of the Java language is "the set of all Java programs".
    This is an infinite set.
    Therefore, it cannot be fixed in a tangible medium.
    Therefore, it it is ineligible for copyright protection.

  • by slew (2918) on Friday April 13, 2012 @02:43PM (#39677539)

    Of course Java can't be copyrighted, but Go, Renderscript and the Android library interface can be copyrighted?

    IANAL, but on the other hand, if no computer language or library API can enjoy copyright protection, then it appears to me that it doesn't have GPL or Creative Commons protection either (since being required to follow these licences follows from the copyright holder's discretion)...

    Be careful what you wish for google...

  • Any lawyers here? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nine-times (778537) <nine.times@gmail.com> on Friday April 13, 2012 @02:46PM (#39677563) Homepage

    I'm totally baffled by this and would like an explanation of how a language could possibly be copyrighted. Is Tolkein's Elvish language copyrighted, and if so, what does that mean? I can understand specific phrases from his books being copyrighted, but if I translated this post into Elvish, does Tolkein's estate suddenly own the copyright to this post? Or what?

    Sorry, but the idea of owning the copyright to a language seems silly. I might understand patenting a use of a language or patenting a method of translation, but the language itself? Doesn't copyright need to apply to a specific expression? Like... I can copyright the image of a painting, but I can't copyright paint.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 13, 2012 @02:50PM (#39677609)

    I believe they refer to the language itself, not the implementation. The current C Programming specification (C11) is available for download. I think you have to pay a fee to download it, earlier drafts should be free. It is then up to X, Y and Z companies to implement the C programming language and libraries according to the specification. It is then those implementations the ones that are copyrighted.

    In other words, if tomorrow we decide to wake up and write a new Java compiler and Java runtime, we just need to follow the specification. We may however, as part of our license dictate that every time you run our Java virtual machine you must wiggle your left foot over the top of the monitor whilst drinking a hot cup of Java [don't try that at home]. We can do this because this is our implementation.

  • by Coffeesloth (669850) on Friday April 13, 2012 @03:07PM (#39677827)
    I agree. You can copyright a derivative work of the language but not the language itself. For instance, you can copyright a book written in English but not the English language.
  • Re:goto: Elbereth ? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by tepples (727027) <<moc.liamg> <ta> <selppet>> on Friday April 13, 2012 @03:15PM (#39677925) Homepage Journal

    to the extent that it might be copyrightable, it would be the non-Latin alphabet

    I was under the impression that alphabets, typography, and calligraphy weren't copyrightable in the home country of Oracle, Google, and Slashdot. Code of Federal Regulations, Ch 37, Sec. 202.1(e); Eltra Corp. v. Ringer; Copyright Office Practices 503.02(a). See Wikipedia:Public domain#Fonts [wikipedia.org]. Fonts can be subject to a design patent, but unlike a copyright, a design patent has to be applied for, and a design patent expires.

  • by JamesP (688957) on Friday April 13, 2012 @03:17PM (#39677955)

    Yes

    I sincerely think Google should quietly buy the copyright to C/C++ before this

    Then let Oracle go ahead with this.

    As soon as Oracle gets copyright protection on languages google does 2 things:

    1 - (motion to) Block the sale/usage of anything Java since Java comes from C/C++
    2 - (motion to) Block the use of anything written in C/C++: Oracle products, JVM, etc, etc

    Losing Android at this point is merely an annoyance.

    Congratulation Oracle, if that's what you want, that's what you get.

  • by Anne Thwacks (531696) on Friday April 13, 2012 @03:38PM (#39678235)
    In the 1960's there were a bunch of law suits over this, which is why many modern assemblers have Really Stupid (TM) mnemonics. I remember TI as deliberately using stupid mnemonics so they could copyright them. This strategy was assisted by very poorly designed documentation:

    A - this instruction affects some registers

    B - This instruction does not affect some registers

    etc

    Hint A = Add, B = Branch (which means jump) but only real gurus knew this, because the documentation did not bother to tell you.

  • Re:Yes. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anne Thwacks (531696) on Friday April 13, 2012 @03:40PM (#39678259)
    Elvish is not "functional", and thus is copyrightable.

    IMHE it is every bit as functional as Lisp.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 13, 2012 @04:23PM (#39678853)

    A programming language is not copyrightable because it's not copyable. There's no fixed form into which it can be put to say, "This is the language." You can write a description or specification document for the language, but then that exact document is subject to copyright, not the language itself.
    Copyright applies only to an enumerated set of types of creative products that have copyable fixed forms.
    It's possible to copy a song, or a novel, or a computer program, or various other copyrightable works. It's possible to distribute those copies.
    These notions break down when talking about a programming language. It's at a higher level of abstraction.

  • Re:Any lawyers here? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mrchaotica (681592) * on Friday April 13, 2012 @04:41PM (#39679095)

    The words are under copyright because Tolkien created them and defined their associated meaning. You would be perfectly fine with using the script (typefaces are not subject to copyright in the US, they are in the UK) but because all of the meanings for the words come from Tolkien having defined a combination of sounds/letters as "meaning" something a translation would be a derivative of Tolkien's creative work.

    I don't buy that argument at all. If that were true, then people would also be able to copyright new English words they coined.

  • by JDG1980 (2438906) on Friday April 13, 2012 @05:17PM (#39679589)
    Oracle's reference to the Tolkien Elvish language is exceptionally weak. They note that Tolkien's estate claims that Elvish is copyrighted, but they provide no case law to substantiate that claim. Instead, they cite a link to the personal Web site of a lawyer who is also a Tolkien fan [theodoramichaels.com]. And the page includes the following:

    I'm not the first to look at this issue. Back in 1999, some Tolkien scholars wanted to publish a journal entitled Tyalià Tyelelliéva, which was to include original poetry written using Tolkien's languages, but they didn't want to run afoul of copyright law. So they solicited a legal opinion from Robert P. Wade, former General Counsel, National Endowment for the Arts. This opinion is available online. He researched the law and concluded that this use would not violate any Tolkien copyrights, for a few different reasons. I won't have time to go into all of them, but here's one: The copyright law specifically says it does not protect any procedure, process, or system.12 A language is a system.13 In fact, there have been cases saying that computer languages are not copyrightable.14 Computer programs are copyrightable, but not the languages used to write them. Would a court find that a language intended for use by humans -- or elves -- falls into the same category? I can't say for sure, but I think there's a good chance of it.

    So not only does their own citation say that it is likely Elvish is not copyrightable, it also says that computer languages are not copyrightable – directly undermining Oracle's own specific case! Did the attorney who included this citation assume no one would check it? I expect this kind of practice from desperate college students, not high-priced corporate lawyers.

  • Re:Sure. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gtall (79522) on Friday April 13, 2012 @06:54PM (#39680637)

    A programming language has a syntax and a semantics. The semantics is generally considered mathematics. The language itself is not math. There are no reduction rules telling you how to compute in the language as opposed to, say, the lambda calculus (note the name calculus).

    Consider the type system for a compute language. Where do the types exists? In the language? Nope, they are in a mathematical system into which the language must be interpreted.

    That said, Oracle can suck eggs, Java isn't copyrightable because languages shouldn't be copyrightable. Their implementation may be, but language is an abstract thing. Being an abstraction does not make something mathematics, i.e., love.

  • Re:Sure. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Jonner (189691) on Friday April 13, 2012 @09:28PM (#39681855)

    Just don't expect anyone to take interest in your language if you copyright it.

    I'm pretty sure Sun never made any ludicrous claim that they held a copyright on the Java language rather than specific implementations of it. There's a long history of independent implementations (as opposed to Microsoft's derivative of Sun's code) based on the good public specifications from Sun that they never attacked. The fact that Oracle is completely reversing this stance is not only illogical, but extremely anti-competitive. We've been worried about Microsoft patents on DotNet stuff for a long time, but it seems we were looking at the wrong anti-competitive behemoth. Perhaps the deepest irony is that while Sun sued Microsoft because Microsoft's version wasn't compatible with theirs, Oracle is suing Google because Google's implementation is compatible with theirs at a source level.

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