Oracle and Google Spar Over Whether Programming Languages Can Be Copyrighted 316
Posted
by
Soulskill
from the makes-perfect-sense-minus-the-sense dept.
from the makes-perfect-sense-minus-the-sense dept.
pcritter writes "With the Oracle v. Google trial date set for next Monday, the Judge has asked Google and Oracle to take a position on whether a programming language is copyrightable. This presumably relates to whether Google violated copyright by using a variant of the Java language and its APIs in the Android framework. Oracle, who thinks it can be, has used J.R.R. Tolkein's Elvish language as an examples (PDF) of a language that can be copyrighted. Google disagrees (PDF)."
My ass (Score:2, Interesting)
A! Elbereth Gilthoniel!
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar elenath,
Gilthoniel, A! Elbereth!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees
The starlight on the western seas
What is Java? (Score:5, Interesting)
The technical definition of the Java language is "the set of all Java programs".
This is an infinite set.
Therefore, it cannot be fixed in a tangible medium.
Therefore, it it is ineligible for copyright protection.
Go, Renderscript, and Android (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course Java can't be copyrighted, but Go, Renderscript and the Android library interface can be copyrighted?
IANAL, but on the other hand, if no computer language or library API can enjoy copyright protection, then it appears to me that it doesn't have GPL or Creative Commons protection either (since being required to follow these licences follows from the copyright holder's discretion)...
Be careful what you wish for google...
Any lawyers here? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm totally baffled by this and would like an explanation of how a language could possibly be copyrighted. Is Tolkein's Elvish language copyrighted, and if so, what does that mean? I can understand specific phrases from his books being copyrighted, but if I translated this post into Elvish, does Tolkein's estate suddenly own the copyright to this post? Or what?
Sorry, but the idea of owning the copyright to a language seems silly. I might understand patenting a use of a language or patenting a method of translation, but the language itself? Doesn't copyright need to apply to a specific expression? Like... I can copyright the image of a painting, but I can't copyright paint.
Re:Go, Renderscript, and Android (Score:2, Interesting)
I believe they refer to the language itself, not the implementation. The current C Programming specification (C11) is available for download. I think you have to pay a fee to download it, earlier drafts should be free. It is then up to X, Y and Z companies to implement the C programming language and libraries according to the specification. It is then those implementations the ones that are copyrighted.
In other words, if tomorrow we decide to wake up and write a new Java compiler and Java runtime, we just need to follow the specification. We may however, as part of our license dictate that every time you run our Java virtual machine you must wiggle your left foot over the top of the monitor whilst drinking a hot cup of Java [don't try that at home]. We can do this because this is our implementation.
Re:What About Machine Language and Assembly? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:goto: Elbereth ? (Score:4, Interesting)
to the extent that it might be copyrightable, it would be the non-Latin alphabet
I was under the impression that alphabets, typography, and calligraphy weren't copyrightable in the home country of Oracle, Google, and Slashdot. Code of Federal Regulations, Ch 37, Sec. 202.1(e); Eltra Corp. v. Ringer; Copyright Office Practices 503.02(a). See Wikipedia:Public domain#Fonts [wikipedia.org]. Fonts can be subject to a design patent, but unlike a copyright, a design patent has to be applied for, and a design patent expires.
Re:This case suddenly became a lot more important (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes
I sincerely think Google should quietly buy the copyright to C/C++ before this
Then let Oracle go ahead with this.
As soon as Oracle gets copyright protection on languages google does 2 things:
1 - (motion to) Block the sale/usage of anything Java since Java comes from C/C++
2 - (motion to) Block the use of anything written in C/C++: Oracle products, JVM, etc, etc
Losing Android at this point is merely an annoyance.
Congratulation Oracle, if that's what you want, that's what you get.
Re:What About Machine Language and Assembly? (Score:5, Interesting)
A - this instruction affects some registers
B - This instruction does not affect some registers
etc
Hint A = Add, B = Branch (which means jump) but only real gurus knew this, because the documentation did not bother to tell you.
Re:Yes. (Score:4, Interesting)
IMHE it is every bit as functional as Lisp.
Re:What About Machine Language and Assembly? (Score:2, Interesting)
A programming language is not copyrightable because it's not copyable. There's no fixed form into which it can be put to say, "This is the language." You can write a description or specification document for the language, but then that exact document is subject to copyright, not the language itself.
Copyright applies only to an enumerated set of types of creative products that have copyable fixed forms.
It's possible to copy a song, or a novel, or a computer program, or various other copyrightable works. It's possible to distribute those copies.
These notions break down when talking about a programming language. It's at a higher level of abstraction.
Re:Any lawyers here? (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't buy that argument at all. If that were true, then people would also be able to copyright new English words they coined.
Oracle's Elvish example undermines their own point (Score:5, Interesting)
So not only does their own citation say that it is likely Elvish is not copyrightable, it also says that computer languages are not copyrightable – directly undermining Oracle's own specific case! Did the attorney who included this citation assume no one would check it? I expect this kind of practice from desperate college students, not high-priced corporate lawyers.
Re:Sure. (Score:5, Interesting)
A programming language has a syntax and a semantics. The semantics is generally considered mathematics. The language itself is not math. There are no reduction rules telling you how to compute in the language as opposed to, say, the lambda calculus (note the name calculus).
Consider the type system for a compute language. Where do the types exists? In the language? Nope, they are in a mathematical system into which the language must be interpreted.
That said, Oracle can suck eggs, Java isn't copyrightable because languages shouldn't be copyrightable. Their implementation may be, but language is an abstract thing. Being an abstraction does not make something mathematics, i.e., love.
Re:Sure. (Score:4, Interesting)
Just don't expect anyone to take interest in your language if you copyright it.
I'm pretty sure Sun never made any ludicrous claim that they held a copyright on the Java language rather than specific implementations of it. There's a long history of independent implementations (as opposed to Microsoft's derivative of Sun's code) based on the good public specifications from Sun that they never attacked. The fact that Oracle is completely reversing this stance is not only illogical, but extremely anti-competitive. We've been worried about Microsoft patents on DotNet stuff for a long time, but it seems we were looking at the wrong anti-competitive behemoth. Perhaps the deepest irony is that while Sun sued Microsoft because Microsoft's version wasn't compatible with theirs, Oracle is suing Google because Google's implementation is compatible with theirs at a source level.