Ask Slashdot: Why Aren't You Running KDE? 818
First time accepted submitter mike_toscano writes "At least some of us have recently seen Linus' most recent comments on his experience with Gnome 3 — he didn't have many nice things to say about it and as you know, he's not the only one. On the other hand, there have been some great reviews and comparisons of KDE with the other options (like this one) lately. Sure, early releases of 4.x were painful but the desktop today is fully-functional and polished. So the question: To those who run *nix desktops and are frustrated by the latest Gnome variants, why aren't you running KDE? To clarify, I'm not asking which desktop is better. I'm really talking to the people who have already decided they don't like the new Gnome & Unity but aren't using KDE. If you don't like KDE or Gnome, why not?"
Found happiness elsewhere (Score:5, Interesting)
You can’t completely break something for a long time and expect people to jump right back when you fix it. I, like many others, had to go elsewhere when kde3 became impractical to keep running and kde4 was completely broken. What I have now works great, and more importantly, kde4 doesn’t have any killer features that appeal to me that I don’t already have in my openbox/xfce4 setup.
All I really want is good multi-monitor handling (including separate panels for each monitor) and the expected standards for managing windows. KDE 3 provided that with minimal fuss KDE 4 initially didn’t. My openbox+xfce4 setup provides it with a little work and minus all the eye candy I disabled anyway.
People will gradually migrate back. I might give kde4 a try the next time I build a machine... but for now, I’m happy with my setup and have no reason to switch back.
fwiw (Score:5, Interesting)
much further down in the thread Linus says, "And for all the people wasting everybodys time with "Why don't you use Unity/KDE/xfce/xyz" - I've tried them. They are even worse, and equally importantly they aren't the normal window manager. I'm really not that odd." - There is a lot more in the comment and if I could figure it out I'd link directly to it - but if there is a way to do it, I couldn't figure it out. Scrolling through this thread made me think there is room for lots of improvement in g+
As for me - I do run KDE and love it. I have for years and stuck with it even through the switch to 4, which was a touch frustrating at times but not nearly as horrible as so many made it out to be - in my opinion.
I am running KDE. (Score:3, Interesting)
I use KDE 3.5.11 courtesy of the trinity project. I never liked gnome and I despise KDE 4.x.
LK
I am (Score:5, Interesting)
I was using kde 3.x - migrated to gnome. Hated unity. I tried mate, cinnamon, lxde, xfce and then thought I'd given kde 4.8 a try.
It's much improved from 4.0!
Because GNOME is too stupid and KDE is too slow. (Score:4, Interesting)
I completely gave up on GNOME back in the 2.x range as I saw features get continually moved, removed, or just made harder to configure. I loved KDE3 and tolerated KDE4 between crashes (now, thankfully, gone in newer versions) until I realized that as KDE versions got newer and newer, they also got slower and slower on my, admittedly aging, hardware. I've since switched to XFCE and haven't looked back. Much.
Unwilling to (re)implement --geometry (Score:5, Interesting)
KDE would be more usable for us developers if the KDELibs crew would (re)implement the basic --geometry command line feature. Removed in KDE 4, available everywhere else. It has been listed as a bug since the release of KDE 4.
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165355 [kde.org]
Please vote for this and maybe the KDE developers will take notice.
Because ROX (Score:4, Interesting)
Because I've been using RiscOS on X [roscidus.com] for awhile and see no reason to change. It's not "gnome" (though it uses gtk). It's interactively very fast even on slow hardware. It's functionally very fast; apply all sorts of filters, selections, and commands to the current window, or bring up a shell in the window's cwd by typing "x". It's an augmentation of the terminal, not a UI for casual users. It's extremely screen-space efficient, since I can do everything and keep all the menubars and toolbars off, and the icons small. It offers a nice direct-manipulation-oriented interface (i.e., comprehensive DND).
Even if KDE offers all of this, it would have to offer quite a bit more in addition to make it worth switching.
Re:Between Personal Life and Work (Score:5, Interesting)
I use xfce on mint (lmde).
I tried several flavors of kde, I really like it, but it just isn't good enough. I had huge problems with Kubuntu (several years ago: kde 4.2, I think): no simple tool available to set up wifi connection, an update that broke my desktop entirely... I decided I'd try it again later.
Some months ago, I installed an opensuse with kde on my work laptop (a dell e6510). I had some performance issues and I didn't know where they came from: some database update scripts took almost 2 times as long as on my coworker's similar pc to complete, and sometimes the load would freeze the desktop for several seconds.
I did not think it was kde, but I tried and installed xfce. The performance problems disappeared instantly. And they came back if i chose kde as my desktop manager when turning my computer on.
More recently I decided to change distribution, and went for lmde with xfce. I don't think I'll try kde again.
Pretty damn simple (Score:5, Interesting)
When I open a movie from a network drive, it copies the entire file first as it is incapable of simply passing a network url to the movie application. Something that every other desktop manager out there can handle.
It is this kind of "wtf" that is rampant throughout KDE. To me, it is the kiddy desktop, where people spend ages on getting some cool feature working but the basics are falling apart. In theory, it should be highly capable but in reality, it is so fragile and its defaults so inane, that to get it working just takes to long.
That is part of the reason Ubuntu and Gnome 2 were so popular. They finally just worked. I am using Linux to be productive, KDE does not help me be productive.
Oh and one final thing KDE team, learn that EVERY single app you build has a far superior solo version out there. I don't need a complete office suite with my desktop thank you very much.
I can't describe it exactly (Score:4, Interesting)
There's just something about how KDE's UI is laid out that rubs me the wrong way.
Long-time Gnome 2 user here, probably switching to MATE. Don't care for Xfce and LXDE is too basic for my taste, as are most of the standalone WMs. Window Maker is fugly.
My two favorite computer UIs today are Gnome 2.3x + Compiz and Windows 7 + Cygwin. They mostly just work, are good about staying out of my way, and have nice UI flourishes like live preview and Aero Snap.
Re:Because I don't like Linux (Score:4, Interesting)
You are wrong. The desktop is not an OS feature, it is a program run and selected by the user. And customized by the user to his/her needs.
So what you need is consistency on your own desktop. Whether it looks completely different for somebody else is no issue at all. So find the one window manager that works best for you, configure it as you like and then continue to use it for the rest of your life with your configuration. I have been using the same desktop (with minimal changes) for > 20 years on multiple machines and even multiple OSes. How is that for consistency?
Re:Between Personal Life and Work (Score:3, Interesting)
Diablo III seems to play fine under Wine: http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=25588 [winehq.org]
And I heard that netflix works on Android. Presumably you could install Android x86 in a VM.
Why the GNOME logo? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Found happiness elsewhere (Score:5, Interesting)
You can’t completely break something for a long time and expect people to jump right back when you fix it. I, like many others, had to go elsewhere when kde3 became impractical to keep running and kde4 was completely broken.
+1 this. I'm sick of distributions which I've gotten used to and liked who suddenly throw themselves (and my productivity) off a GUI cliff. I don't care if you're putting in place the building blocks for some super duper new GUI, I use my computers to get things done and don't like having a "WTF?" moment when I upgrade.
I used and really liked KDE for a long time, and along came 4.x . Suddenly I was left with a half working GUI, and was told that "well you shouldn't have upgraded should you?" and "it'll get better when we fix all the bugs". This is my problem now is it?
MS are about to run into the same issue with Windows 8. Taking a well known and, maybe not loved but tolerated, GUI paradigm of a desktop and discarding it. It's going to cause chaos and resentment amongst their user community, many of whom will look at alternatives.
I greatly respect everyone who contributes to open source, and I know you put your heart and soul into it, but for most of us our computers are not toys that we sit and tinker with endlessly to display snazzy new GUI effects, they are the tools we use to get things done. Once you lose the trust of the user that they can rely on you to provide a stable and easy to use OS you will have an incredibly hard job getting them back.
Re:Two words: nepomuk and akonadi (Score:4, Interesting)
Nepomuk and akonadi, whatever the hell they are, seem to break KMail for me. Sometimes just for a few minutes, sometimes until a reboot, sometimes for an entire version.
Now, I'm sure I could google around a little more than I have already and possibly figure it out what they're for, but frankly I don't care. They appeared at some point after KDE 4 (at least that's when I learned of their existence) and promptly started crashing and breaking things and bringing up system crash feedback dialogs. Really? If they worked properly -- that is to say, I wasn't aware of them -- I'd be just fine. But I'm not interested in beta testing an email client/contact organizer.
Complaining doesn't seem to help. The KDE forums are full of KMail bugs that are "unreproducible" according to the developers.
The system default email client really should "just work". If newer technology isn't quite ready for prime time, then don't use it until it is. Email is a pretty mature class of application, and doesn't really need to be on the bleeding edge of anything. Sure, it's free. But that was no reason to break it.
Re:Found happiness elsewhere (Score:5, Interesting)
This being said, I 100% agree with your "WTF" moments, and the fact that I don't like the GUI I've spent so much time with may change radically. In fact, I'm currently using GNOME 2, and I still think KDE 3.5 was better. I'll probably switch to LXDE when I'll have to upgrade form Squeeze to Wheezy. It's getting worse on each upgrade...
Re:Found happiness elsewhere (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm thinking, the more I see Microsoft adopt Linux solutions and begin accepting Linux as a competitor, that maybe they've realized this is one thing they won't be able to extend out of existence once they've embraced it. Maybe they're purposely trying to kill Windows and hoping it will die just in time for them to release their own Linux distro?
Far-fetched, yes. But, a lot of what MS has done in the pas has been.
Re:Why am I not Running KDE? (Score:5, Interesting)
olwm (OPEN LOOK Virtual Window Manager) is quite old too... http://xwinman.org/olvwm.php [xwinman.org]
Re:Found happiness elsewhere (Score:5, Interesting)
I've found XFCE to be a VERY sweet spot for me as well. I use the default WM, just heard of OpenBox via this thread.
My favourite thing is raw speed. Absoloute unquestioning speed. XFCE doesn't get it my way, it doesn't take time to play an animation whenever I do something. It snaps to attention and that is a BIG deal when I'm developing. Alt-Tabbing around, switching virtual desktops (with keyboard shortcuts, natch), raising and lowering windows, etc are all things that should happen fast. The next screen update if possible. The other desktop environments have forgotten that. I like animations and all the eye candy at first, but when I went to get something done they just got real annoying. Not to mention all the things that they want to change just... because? I don't know.
Unity wants me to change my workflow, lack(s|ed) basic configuration, has the "unified menu" (really hate those) and a whole slew of other problems that I never found because when I realized it wouldn't let me launch more than one instance of an application (a terminal, for example) without performing some ritual (I never found out how) I restored from backup as quickly as I could. Unity, in my experience, is slow braindead garbage designed with goals nearly orthogonal to my own needs.
Gnome I've not tried since it arrived stillborn in Ubuntu 11.10? (I think? It crashed for me hourly. Didn't take long for me to change when that started). The last time I looked at KDE it simply didn't give me controls to do certain things, forget what but it was keyboard shortcuts for window management. It might have been virtual desktops but I could be wrong. I like to be able to swtch desktops with *absoloute* keyboard shortcuts instead of relative ones. I don't give a half a rat's tail about the "geometry" of my work spaces. Hint: There isn't one! Its all just an abstraction! I don't want to have to give a moments reflection on "where I'm at" in my virtual desktop space to know how to get to my "destination"! I know that I want to get to virtual desktop 3 so I hit ctrl+alt+down and I'm there. I make habits of putting certain things in certain places so it is reflex to jump to the right place to find them, no thought required and no distraction from my train of thought.
Anyway, KDE seemed incomplete. Lack of controls that irked me (and I DID try. I like the look of it and I recall it being speedy enough. Just felt like I was typing one handed, for lack of a better analogy)
XFCE fit the bill for me in every single way. Right now everything else seems like a pain in the neck that is trying to get in my way, change my workflow to a painfully slow one, or is jsut plain broken / incomplete.
Re:Found happiness elsewhere (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Found happiness elsewhere (Score:5, Interesting)
A majority? Probably not. The terminal is fine for lots of things, but when it comes to things like developing, email, browsing, etc. it does not cut it. Sure, I could sit and create a long list of aliases to make access to those things easier, but.. then I have to worry about things like window placement when I launch something, and managing the running applications. Also, how do you show someone from Windows world how Linux is friendly when that's your option? How much of a performance hit is it trying to hand manage all your applications?
I have been an avid KDE user since it first started shipping with RedHat (yeah, I'm an old mother f&*ker). KDevelop is an awesome IDE, window management and performance have always been better than Gnome, it's extremely flexible, and for businesses a very important feature is the Kiosk controls (Gnome was supposed to have these in version 3, however after a year of waiting for a management tool and bug fixes I gave up.).
The other nice thing with KDE is that I have graphics that look better than Windows, but similar enough that people can follow what you are doing. Most of the time, after an hour long session with Engineers I have them asking what I'm running so they can ask their boss for it. If I want to be flashy, I can hot key Compeze and make people "ooh" and "ahh", especially those in Windows that are used to Aero's poor performance with effects if the effects work at all.
Were there changes that were maybe too drastic from V2-V3 then V3-v4? Hard to say, I mean.. they are trying to build something that competes with the massively adopted MS Desktop. All in all, I'll take a day learning curve in a new version when weighting the pros and cons.
KDE is the future of Linux on the desktop (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a long time Linux desktop user. I watched all the different desktop environments evolve over the past 15 years and KDE has become far and above the best with Mint Linux's GNOME based MATE and Cinnamon a solid 2nd place. Lightweight desktops still are viable alternatives too but I wouldn't put desktops like XFCE, LXDE or Enlightenment in the same class as KDE, GNOME 3 Shell, MATE/Cinnamon and Unity. Not because the lightweight desktops are inferior but because they serve a different purposed and to that end, serve it really well. Overall KDE is well polished, simple and intuitive enough for beginners but doesn't get in the way of power users. If you haven't tried the latest versions of KDE I would recommend you do. You might be presently surprised.
KDE is outstanding (Score:4, Interesting)
KDE's current version is outstanding. We could spend all year talking about history, but KDE4.8 works pretty well, and frankly is a great option over Unity, Gnome and some of the lightweight desktops if you value functionality over light weight. If you like lightweight, don't go with a desktop, go with a window manager.
Incidentally, you can tell someone who hasn't really used KDE by comments like "it lacks refinement" or "it isn't pretty" or "kde4 is slow". There's really not much I can say for people who say "I don't want to customize my desktop" as the default isn't bad and KDE's biggest feature is it's customization capability.
That said there are two components that need to be better explained and left to the user to decide if they want them: symantic desktop and Akonadi. Symantec desktop (nepomuk) is basically text search engine and tagging toolkit that lets you rate, comment on and tag files. The search engine works now, but for people with networked home directories, it is not the right answer. Akonadi is the backend for the personal information manager applications. If you are not going to use Kontact (the KDE outlook clone), Akonadi probably doesn't need to run. If you are using Kontact, Akonadi offloads sending/receiving so the front end applications can be light and fast.
I'm a python developer most of the time these days I use emacs, Wing, iPython, yEd (for charts and process diagrams) and do some documentation and proposals in LibreOffice. There are a few that have been part of KDE for a long time that make it especially nice:
* opens a terminal in many apps. Handy.
* KIO - allows you to open files pretty much anywhere without the need to mount drive. You get very used to being able to open and save files on all kinds of remote systems and services from the highly functional file save/open dialog.
* Dekstops and workspaces - multiple desktops and multiple dashboards. Most are an away.
* Plasma Desktop - You can pretty much customize it however you like. Want a start menu and panel ? OK. Want a mac like menubar? OK (xbar) MacOS like dock? OK. Mac style dashboard? Got it. Windows style widget bar, ok, you can do that. Want a quicksilver like launcher? (that's been there for almost a decade). Want files on your desktop? OK. Want remote files on your desktop? OK. Don't like the look? Change it.
* Konsole, the KDE terminal app just works. And has a ton of features with an easy to detach tabbed GUI and some pretty nice automation features.
* If you did a file manager shootout, it would probably finish Dolphin, Konqueror, Finder, MS Explorer, Kommander and everything else. KDE's file managers give you a lot of flexibility and outstanding integration with tools. Dolphin is designed for ease of use, Konqueror is an MS Explorer style kitchen sink and Kommander is a Norton Commander style app. All leverage KIO to be able to browse remote systems as if they are local and launch background tasks to move files around.
* Amarok - Music player. Very well done. Probably the best one out there short of iTunes...
* Kmail - A very well done feature rich mail client.
Is KDE perfect? No. KDE went through its rearchitecting four years ago, and has emerged to be very, very good.
I haven't encountered any dealbreakers (Score:2, Interesting)
I've used GNOME2, GNOME3, KDE4 and XFCE each for at least a year (some 2 or 3), and I've enjoyed all of them. I felt GNOME2 was solid and featured, though perhaps a little stale in some areas. XFCE was fast and efficient, though at times felt a little cold/empty. GNOME3 feels solid and has plenty of interesting ideas that are worth developing, but I found it hard to feel grounded (perhaps due to it being so unusual). I'm currently using KDE4(.8) and have been impressed by the k* range of software. It certainly has the most in common with the Windows 7 experience (as a result I tend to encourage new users towards Kubuntu), and has an average bugfix turnaround I've been very pleased with. In my opinion KDE is also by far the prettiest (I judge by the default "theme" since I deliberately avoid heavy customisation (I don't enjoy it)).
I haven't used other DEs for long enough to comment fairly (LXDE, Enlightenment, Fluxbox, etc), but I've come away with a strong opinion that debating the best DE is as pointless as debating the best Linux distro. We all have different tastes and priorities, and different solutions must exist to cater for them.