Ask Slashdot: How Would You Convince Someone To Give Up an Old System? 379
First time accepted submitter Vanderhoth writes "I'm currently serving as a new member of a board for a not for profit organization. The board currently has a few other members, and a couple of vacant positions. One of the issues I've noticed since joining the board is the method in which they conduct business is very out of date. The member that maintains our web presences (Bob) has developed a system over the last ten years to allow us to store documents, such as agendas and minutes on a website server.
Some of the big issues are:
1.) The system is very disorganized, there are documents from the late 90's that aren't relevant, but have to be sifted through to find more current stuff.
2.) Often documents are not where they should be and are difficult to find.
3.) No one except Bob really knows how the system works.
4.) No one really wants to use the system because of the monster it's become.
My concern is if Bob decided to leave the organization no one would be able to maintain the existing system and we would be scrambling to put something new in place. I feel, for what we want to do, Google Docs would be an excellent platform for collaborating and sharing documents. The other board members, except Bob, have agreed with me, but are worried that bringing the issues with the existing system may cause offense and ultimately cause Bob to leave. Other than being overly vested in a system he developed, Bob is an important part of our board and a very valuable member.
We're already having a difficult time finding members to serve on the board so it's very important that we don't lose any existing board members. I'm hoping that I can convince the Bob to start supporting some Google docs objects on the site and try to wean him off his existing system to something a bit more manageable and collaborative that can be passed on to new members and maintained easily.
I don't want this to turn into old dogs and new tricks. I'm not that far behind Bob in years and can appreciate the difficulty of being told it's time to give in to something more modern. I'm wondering how the situation could be approached tactfully so maybe Bob will see how much easier a new system could be for everyone, including him."
Some of the big issues are:
1.) The system is very disorganized, there are documents from the late 90's that aren't relevant, but have to be sifted through to find more current stuff.
2.) Often documents are not where they should be and are difficult to find.
3.) No one except Bob really knows how the system works.
4.) No one really wants to use the system because of the monster it's become.
My concern is if Bob decided to leave the organization no one would be able to maintain the existing system and we would be scrambling to put something new in place. I feel, for what we want to do, Google Docs would be an excellent platform for collaborating and sharing documents. The other board members, except Bob, have agreed with me, but are worried that bringing the issues with the existing system may cause offense and ultimately cause Bob to leave. Other than being overly vested in a system he developed, Bob is an important part of our board and a very valuable member.
We're already having a difficult time finding members to serve on the board so it's very important that we don't lose any existing board members. I'm hoping that I can convince the Bob to start supporting some Google docs objects on the site and try to wean him off his existing system to something a bit more manageable and collaborative that can be passed on to new members and maintained easily.
I don't want this to turn into old dogs and new tricks. I'm not that far behind Bob in years and can appreciate the difficulty of being told it's time to give in to something more modern. I'm wondering how the situation could be approached tactfully so maybe Bob will see how much easier a new system could be for everyone, including him."
Smart Guy (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds like Bob has found a way to ensure his continued employment and everyone around is too spineless to play that game of chicken with him.
What about Bob? (Score:4, Insightful)
Kidding aside, have you tried bringing it up with Bob?
Careful (Score:5, Insightful)
-A Jaded Board Member
Re:Smart Guy (Score:5, Insightful)
"Not for Profit" does not always mean "unpaid volunteer", and that includes the board.
And even when it does, you can still have the gatekeeper syndrome. People do this sort of thing for many reasons not just money.
Re:Smart Guy (Score:3, Insightful)
Bringing him along without killing his ego (Score:2, Insightful)
Bob has probably spent countless hours sweating and toiling on this in relative obscurity. The key to pulling this off in my opinion is to recognize his work and talk about the features you'd like to get added to the website. Constructing the right feature requests will help him come on board with an alternative solution.
Bob's value (Score:5, Insightful)
From your description, Bob may have a vested interest in the old system. Security, self worth, whatever. Bob may feel that his value is tied with the old system. So going after the old system is going to feel like going after Bob, to him.
So don't fight that battle. Turn it around and make it so that Bob has an interest in the new system. Ok, that's obviously easier said than done. But there are several ways it can be done. Here are two approaches:
1) Let Bob be the hero. Talk to him privately about how he's managed miracles with what he's been given. Then ask him what he would do different if he could start over. Ask him what it would take. Offer to back him in his proposals. In short, put him in charge in a way that makes him indispensable and proud to do a good job.
2) Let him be the mentor. Similar to letting him be the hero, but with the twist of having someone else do the grunt work under Bob's wise and benevolent guidance.
3) Black box it. Ask Bob to come up with a new system, but don't get into the details. That requires a lot of trust, which may be what Bob is after anyways.
You get the idea. Play to what Bob wants and make it work for you.
The system is not the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a political problem, not a systems problem.
After over a decade in systems administration, I just a job where for six years I was an IT manager. There, I learned that the skills involved in managing projects and people are a vastly underrated skill among systems specialists. The belief is often that the right system - new hardware; new software - will somehow solve an organization problem that's inherently political in nature. By that I mean, a people problem. And I think you've got a people problem here. Which doesn't mean your documentation system isn't out of date, doesn't need a refresh, etc. It means that a core member of your team is out of step with the needs of the organization, as defined by a majority board vote.
You have three choices:
A) attempt to persuade this board member that his system needs a revamp, set a series of goals to achieve that he'll buy into, and give him the project to manage. Specify benchmarks and a timeline to achieve these goals and have the board review the project on a regular basis. Then the board must fulfill its obligation to the organization by grading project success on an honest but fair basis. If he honestly works toward these goals, then the issue will resolve itself in time. Otherwise, the board must consider the possibility of transitioning him off a leadership role in that project.
B) Fire him. Do it now. Accept the fallout and hire someone else to clean up the mess.
C) Do nothing.
---
Option A: keeps someone in place who has shown himself to be an important team member who has strayed from the needs of the organization, but who recognizes this and shifts course as a result. This is the preferred course.
Option B: cuts your losses now and takes the hit quickly, while the problem is fresh. This is a harsh course, but at least is a response to the problem at hand.
Option C: 'do nothing' is a total loser. A problem recognized and yet not pursued to resolution festers until systems collapse, often at the worst time while leaving the organization unprepared for the consequences.
But the first thing you've got to realize is that Google Docs is not your solution. Google Docs may be a fine system, and a worthy systems choice. But your problem is not 'the system'. Your problem is that one person in a leadership role in the organization has strayed from board consensus, and as a result has assumed command responsibilities he does not legitimately hold. That's what you and the board must address.
Don't squabble with Bob (Score:4, Insightful)
new member
Bob has it all over you. You can make a brilliant case and Bob will quietly pigeonhole enough support to get his way. In the meantime you'll squander whatever little political capital you have squabbling with Bob. Don't squabble with Bob.
convince Bob
Bzzt. Wrong. Bob is not the guy you need to convince. You need to convince everyone else. Here are some ideas on how to do that.
First, demonstrate the weaknesses. Place legitimate demands on Bob's system that you know it can't handle (revision control, secure remote access, ACL, etc.) Make him squirm and come up with excuses. Don't offer an alternative because that just leads to squabbling. Don't squabble with Bob. Just make the system and Bob's advocacy of it look bad.
Do something "new" in your prefered alternative system. It has to be something that does not require or even suggest that it belongs in Bob's baby, because otherwise you're back to squabbling. Don't squabble with Bob. This is where you show how inadequate Bob's system is. This has been how middle managers sneak solutions into institutions for decades; go around IT. If the system is really as bad as you say it is then this is already happening anyhow. Look carefully for those cases. You may be able to adopt them.
Wait. Eventually some happy user of your alternative system, armed with knowledge and frustration with the inadequacies of Bob's system you carefully surfaced, will begin to argue for your solution. "XYZ can do it, why shouldn't we use that instead?"
Wait. Eventually Bob's system will crumble a bit because Bob doesn't scale (medical problems, boredom, incompetence, whatever) and you're there ready to go with a proven solution, advocates and everything.
Google Docs Ain't Magic (Score:5, Insightful)
1.) The system is very disorganized, there are documents from the late 90's that aren't relevant, but have to be sifted through to find more current stuff.
Google Docs won't fix that.
2.) Often documents are not where they should be and are difficult to find.
Google Docs won't fix that.
3.) No one except Bob really knows how the system works.
Google Docs will fix this.
4.) No one really wants to use the system because of the monster it's become.
Google Docs may not fix this. See #1 and #2.
Besides the passive aggressiveness in this post, you might have bigger communication issues on your board than just the document collection system. If you want a more concrete suggestion: convert Bob's entire system into Google Docs, fix it up so it provides the same member benefits as Bob's system (no, one big "oldshit" folder won't cut it) and then give him a demo. And really dig into #1 and #2 - that's a problem with any document collection system ever built.
learn how a board works (Score:5, Insightful)
Learn how to be a proper board member.
In short: submit an agenda item to discuss resolving issues to the document management system. Either ask Bob if he'd like to present a plan of his own to resolve the problems along with your own, or let the board discuss the problems and request plans of action from you, Bob, and anyone else. At the next meeting, the plans are presented and one is selected by the board.
Everything is above board, he's given a completely legitimate/fair shot at fixing the problems, and if the board fairly discusses and votes against him, he at least should feel he was treated fairly, and it won't impact his desire to help the organization.
IF and ONLY IF he's treated fairly and he goes off in a huff about the whole thing, then so be it. He's toxic.
If you go sneaking around trying to build support for switching to google docs (which you've kind of already done - you need to buy a copy of Robert's Rules of Order and read up about polling, and why you don't do it), then ambush Bob at a meeting and throw up a motion to switch to Google Docs - he's rightfully going to be angry and defensive, and it will definitely impact his contributions or cause him to leave.
Re:Tell him (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly, it is quite possible he has wanted to update, wanted to relenquish administration, but has not wanted to go through the process or speak up about making the change.
Re:Bob's value (Score:4, Insightful)
All good ideas. I think a lot of people are actually open to change as long as they feel their skill and experience is being valued. Suggest that it would be good to simplify and modernise the process and find out what ideas Bob has and the challenges he sees in implementing any changes.
Also be clear on what you want to achieve, without dictating the route to go. Suggestions are fine, but don't make is sound like you've already decided - people generally take pride in what they do and want to have input into how changes proceed. And buy-in breeds better morale. :)
Two problems I've encountered are top down dictators who ignore people's skills and experience; and unclear goals which make it extremely hard to move forward (e.g. "make is snazzy" is not clear enough. "Allow collaboration and make it easier to locate relevant information" is better.)
Re:Smart Guy (Score:3, Insightful)
I would then introduce it, show how much easier it is, and then let them chose.
Re:Non profit (Score:5, Insightful)
Not knowing what system Bob currently has in place, Google Docs may (or may not) be an improvement.
However, there is no such thing as a document management system that can't be screwed up for it's effectiveness by poor data hygiene processes.
Any system needs to have a high level plan for how the data will be structured and organised. Meta data needs to be agreed upon and used. The information architecture needs to scale and be flexible to be restructured if something changes in how you want to access it (say in response to mandatory reporting requirements being changed).
The tool in most cases is the least important part. It's how intuitive the navigation is and how well everyone sticks to using the agreed (and published) naming conventions and saving files in the agreed locations. Even simple things like naming your files YYYYMMDD_Agenda.doc can help make things easier to find and simpler to sort.
This does not end well. (Score:5, Insightful)
i want to see if I understand this clearly:
Bob's experience and competence in other areas are regarded as indispensable to a board that is struggling to fill at least two critical vacancies .
Bob built this system on his own time for an NPO that appears to have no IT staff or competence whatever and a board which seems almost too eager to embrace an alternative solution --- any solution --- proposed off-stage by its most junior member.
How you avoid the blow-up to come, I can't even begin to guess.
Ask Bob (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Don't put a square peg in a round hole. (Score:2, Insightful)
What is wrong with geeks...
DO NOT bring the alternative straight into a board meeting - that's a really dumb idea. If he identifies with the system you are effectively publicly pointing out his failings. At best he will likely be crestfallen and his resignation will follow shortly. At worst there will be shouting and old grievances long put to bed will be brought out for another run up the flagpole.
You have two options, and given your description it seems you want to keep Bob onside, so you really only have one option.
Step by Step:
1. Build some rapport with Bob so he doesn't think you are out to f*#& him. If you can't do this then see step 8.
2. Get him to tell you about the problems with the existing system.
3. Find a good alternative.
4. Introduce him to the alternative privately and give him a chance to convince himself of its merits.
5. If he convinces himself ask him if he would like to bring it to the board's attention (you can get a lot done provided you don't want the credit).
6. If he doesn't convince himself ask him how he would feel about you showing it to other board members - he will probably say "okay", but the tone of his voice will tell you whether he is really fine with it, or is digging trenches around his position.
7. If he seems okay with it, be open about who you are discussing it with.
8. If he is not okay with it, then, understanding that your next step may well see him leave, start quietly building support if you really think it is that f#*&ing important.
Re:Tell him (Score:5, Insightful)
This. Except don't use Google Docs. I can't imagine using Google Docs to store 20+ years worth of documents. Google Docs is good for collaborating to create/modify a document, then allow you to take that out when you are done, and organize it how you want. Create a file server (probably what you currently have), and put things into folders in a sensible way. By year, by topic, by whatever will make it easier to sort through. I'm sure Bob realizes the mess that has been created. Just say "This has become disorganized over the years, let's make a conscious effort to organize it." It's not Bob's fault, it's everyone who didn't say something sooner that is to blame.
Re:Google Docs Ain't Magic (Score:4, Insightful)
Ultimately, nobody knows how Google Docs are stored either.... And his system has DONE THE JOB for longer than Google (has been around) his system has met the basic needs quite well if you still have docs from the 1990's.
The FIRST thing you need is a GOOD reason to update the system. The SECOND thing you need is to get RESOURCES. Those resources need to come from the TOP and be given to Bob. If you don't have those, then you are just another person with a big idea and wants Bob to back it up.
The goal should be to find a canned system Bob can build now but anybody else can also understand. My advice, call a local tech university and talk to a professor. You will either come up with something top-to-bottom like Microsoft Small Business Server with SharePoint running. It's trees blue and not geeky, but if the school TEACHES Microsoft, you got a steady stream of volunteers in the future. Alternately, find a web portal Bob would like in a language the school teaches. You don't want to TOUCH a single line of code, but you want a canned system like Wordpress (just an example) that any student can set up, and any ISP with hosting will have on their default setup.
Ultimately you have to get Bob help with the grunt work. Bob has been nursing this baby for decades... Bob wants his baby to grow up. Bob doesn't want a NEW BABY .... You better offer serious help moving all these files over and building a new structure. This is where the Tech school comes in... Somebody always needs an internship credit... And you are non-profit... Just give good references!
Step back, Stop, and Re-Assess (Score:5, Insightful)
Your'e new. Too new to be suggesting anything dramatic unless you have been explicitly drafted to do so. If you're not 100% sure that is the case, then it's not. All that you'll do is piss people off.
You're new. It will take you at least 18 to 24 months to really understand how the organization works. And that much longer until you know the history behind the way things work. Now's the time to sit tight, keep your mouth shut, and listen and watch.
Ignore Bob's stuff. Almost certainly 95% of anything really important exists on paper - primarily minutes and budget docs. The rest is historical stuff that's nice to have, but not mission critical. I once stepped into a non-profit which, after twenty years, had exactly one banker's box of records. Someone had purged everything else in the place. We survived.
Start from scratch. Seriously, just start creating records in a new organised format. Leave the old stuff on the (virtual) shelf. If you really need it, there will be a back-up somewhere, or someone will have printed a copy.
Finally, You're brand new. Two seats are open. Records are in a mess. I'll wager that there a lot more pressing problems than just record-keeping.
Finally again, the stuff that really, really matters - minutes, budgets, grant and funding documents - should exist on paper, in a file cabinet. As much as a I love e-docs, some things are just better in a permanent, uneditable form.
Re:Don't squabble with Bob (Score:5, Insightful)
I wasn't ever Bob. I have never worked in IT, or maintained any system that wasn't for my own personal use. But I've known a few Bobs, and every one of them was doing the best they could to deal with a situation that had grown too complex for their abilities and yet not complicated enough to justify paying someone to fix it properly. If you walk in and start asking the moon, you'd better be able to deliver it with zero downtime and zero retraining. Because otherwise, Bob's system is better.
Full stop. (Score:4, Insightful)
At some point, one of the following will happen: (a) Bob will quit. While not ideal, this gives you the opportunity to bring someone in to dump the content out of his code, sort it, drop old documents, and move it to Google Docs.
Bob isn't a staffer you can fire and forget.
He is a senior member of the board, an advocate and fund-raiser, a very familiar face, representing an important constituency of his own among the agency's clients and financial backers,
Re:Smart Guy (Score:5, Insightful)
This wouldn't be tactfull, would it? To quote the original post:
I'm wondering how the situation could be approached tactfully so maybe Bob will see how much easier a new system could be for everyone, including him
If being considerate to Bob as a valued member of the group is important, perhaps a better way would be to try to persuade him to teach his skills to others? Maybe his way really is good, and it would be valuable to learn, or it is crap and it could turn into a way of addressing the problems in some way. Also, putting him in a teacher position gives him the feeling of higher status, which probably makes him more open to letting go of the old system.
Re:Smart Guy (Score:3, Insightful)
"Well, maybe it's time the organization brought in The Bobs to find out exactly what everyone's role is, and trim the fat a little."
Yes, BUT...
It is not enough to say the old system is bad. Good must be introduced to replace it.
Personally, at this time (late 2012) I would not put anything important out "in the cloud". Google Docs is slow, compromises your security, AND, quite frankly, is a pain in the ass to use.
None of the others are much better.
Get yourself a good kid who knows Ruby/Rails, or Django, or some other Web framework with database back end. Pay him a couple of hundred bucks, or maybe hire him a hooker. Make sure he's not finished until it's all writtent down. Job done.
Re:Smart Guy (Score:4, Insightful)
maybe hire him a hooker.
Or get a volunteer.