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U.S. Senate's Big Immigration Bill Seeks Centralized Database For H-1B Jobs 251

Posted by Soulskill
from the because-centralized-databases-are-always-a-good-idea dept.
dcblogs writes "The U.S. Senate comprehensive immigration bill, due Tuesday, will allow the H-1B cap to rise from 65,000 to as high as 180,000. The bill, overall, contains some interesting provisions. It will require the U.S. Labor Dept. to create a website of H-1B job openings that employers must post to. The jobs must be posted least 30 calendar days before hiring an H-1B applicant to fill that position. The bill also raises wages for H-1B workers to make them more competitive, although the amount wasn't specified. One provision that will affect India, in particular, limits H-1B visa use to 50% of a firm's U.S. workforce. The provision may prompt India firms to buy U.S. companies to expand their U.S. presence."
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U.S. Senate's Big Immigration Bill Seeks Centralized Database For H-1B Jobs

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  • why? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by v1 (525388) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @06:47PM (#43467235) Homepage Journal

    The bill also raises wages for H-1B workers to make them more competitive, although the amount wasn't specified.

    So they can encourage foreign outsourcing? Doesn't anyone see this as having a negative impact on domestic unemployment? (as well as a trade deficit effect as they ship their US$ off to India)

    Why is this necessary???

    • Re:why? (Score:5, Informative)

      by GodfatherofSoul (174979) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @06:52PM (#43467283)

      Corporate America's solution to unemployment is importing cheaper labor from other countries. I watched mouth agape as Bill Gates suggested this in an interview when asked about his ideas on how to deal with the Recession. Of course, corporate media never challenges their masters when they make these ludicrous statements.

      • Re:why? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Mitreya (579078) <mitreya@gmail . c om> on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:07PM (#43467417)

        Corporate America's solution to unemployment is importing cheaper labor from other countries.

        Oddly enough, they have a completely different view on importing cheaper products from other countries
        See DVD region encoding, out-of-country textbooks, software, etc.

        • Re:why? (Score:5, Informative)

          by ebno-10db (1459097) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:33PM (#43467637)
          Be reasonable, that affects the Great and Holy Intellectual Property that's the wealth of our nation. We're merely citizens.
        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward

          I feel the same way, and have made my position clear many times.

          If $large mega corp$ feels it is in their best interest to outsource jobs in this "global economy" why are our DVD's still region coded?
          Please dont give me the "top releases are sent to the US first"... I think the real reason is to prevent re-importation.

          This "one way street" stuff needs to end. Either we have a global economy and you should charge $4 for a DVD and $10 for a school text book (same they often charge other regions) or we dont

          • If $large mega corp$ feels it is in their best interest to outsource jobs in this "global economy" why are our DVD's still region coded?

            Or why can't I buy medicine from the lowest cost worldwide provider?

            Why? Rules are of, by, and for those with control of the government.

        • by readin (838620)
          Good point. The tell us that we have to import workers to fix the wage disparity, but that we can't bring in cheaper products to deal with the price disparity of, for example, DVDs.
      • If you've got at least $1B, or regularly appear before bobbing heads on the news, you could say that 2+2=5 and have your views solemnly acknowledged and endorsed by the Very Serious People who discuss these issues.
      • So...their idea of dealing with a need for more homegrown STEM candidates (haha, try raising the salary offers a little) is to shoot a nuclear torpedo into their home country's universities' STEM programs? Increasing supply tapers off demand...duh! That's like basic economics...it'll perma-fuck anything at home...it takes like a decade to establish a CS / SE program, let alone the other kinds...less kids attending those programs because of dropping salaries (this includes kids who drop out of the program or

      • by sycodon (149926)

        Don't think this is limited to the Corporate world.

        Immigration reform advocates talk a good game of human rights and crap like that but what the really want is cheap labor to mop their office floors and pick their vegetables.

        Bottom line is there are plenty of American Citizens that are willing to work all jobs. Anyone who says otherwise is actually saying that that there are Americans who won't work for less than minimum wage (Agricultural) so we should bring in these poor schmucks from other countries to d

    • Re:why? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by icebike (68054) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @06:56PM (#43467317)

      The bill also raises wages for H-1B workers to make them more competitive, although the amount wasn't specified.

      So they can encourage foreign outsourcing? Doesn't anyone see this as having a negative impact on domestic unemployment? (as well as a trade deficit effect as they ship their US$ off to India)

      Why is this necessary???

      Well it might have a positive effect on domestic employment as well.

      If it makes US firms use of foreign workers very visible people (and congress) will be able to see to what
      extent these companies are using H1B workers in place of US workers laid off.

      Right now this is pretty well a hidden level of replacement that no one agency has a good handle on. Immigration may know the numbers, but Dept of Labor only knows about the unemployed.

      By making a public website where these jobs are listed, it can be used for in-country job search as well.
      Expect the H1B employers to fight this tooth and nail.

      • Re:why? (Score:4, Informative)

        by mabhatter654 (561290) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:35PM (#43467651)

        I think this is really the break point for the bigger guys like IBM. That's why it's discussed now.

        The horse is long out if the barn. For companies like IBM they have moved "outsourcing" in India to being just like an office across the country. IBM has basically bet the company on US sales forces selling Indian labor. You get a "US contact" for the first few months, but all the work is done by Indians.

        I guess if you can admin your server room from your bed at 3am (and still work at 8am) your company can just pay an Indian guy to be awake at 3am and don't need you. The REAL money is in Project Management... Which quite ironically is not part of the MBA track-- to BUILD NEW THINGS? Of course Project Management is the skill of making yourself replaceable.. So the fact IT has embraced it is really going to bite us in the ass.

    • by Trepidity (597)

      For cultural reasons, Americans aren't willing to sanction unlimited immigration. So there is going to be some limit. How to allocate it? Currently it's first-come, first-serve. But why not allocate it by economic benefit? And how better to measure economic benefit than wages?

      If one company claims there is a shortage of domestic workers, and offers $60k to hire a foreign worker; a 2nd company claims the same and offers $90k; and a third claims the same and offers $120k; which should get the slot? I would ar

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by anubi (640541)
        I honestly do not know what to make of this. I have just done my state and federal tax. I owed the feds nothing. I owed the state $57. I do contract engineering work in things like analog and microprocessor control.

        I have been working with one small company trying to build it up. I have been working there for six months now, and have been paid a little over $2000. Just yesterday the owner gave me an agreement (NDA) he wanted me to sign, which transferred any and all IP I come with to the company alo
        • "Just yesterday the owner gave me an agreement (NDA) he wanted me to sign, which transferred any and all IP I come with to the company along with a commitment from me I will not work for any of his customers or competitors for 24 months after termination."

          I don't have a big problem with NDA, except I would want a provision to keep something for my professional portfolio.

          By the way: if it transfers all "IP" (I hate that term because it's grossly inaccurate) it's far more than just an NDA. A plain NDA is just "non disclosure", it has nothing to do with actual ownership.

          The document you were asked to sign was actually a combination of 3 agreements: a NDA, an agreement about copyright or patent, and a non-compete agreement. Generally, these will be separat

      • by Cyberax (705495)
        Currently it's not "first-come-first-served". It's a lottery - literally. This year USCIS received more applications than the statutory cap in the first week, so they held a lottery to select the applications for further review. That's so unbelievably fucked up...
    • Re:why? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:12PM (#43467459)

      So they can encourage foreign outsourcing?

      H1B is already all about out-sourcing. The top 10 H1B employers, accounting for roughly half of all H1B visas, are out-sourcers. They bring people in on H1B, train them up and send them back. H1B is encouraging out-sourcing, not stopping it.

      http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134694/Whos-Hiring-H1-B-Visa-Workers-Its-Not-Who-You-Might-Think [npr.org]

      • " H1B is encouraging out-sourcing, not stopping it."

        Not only that, but studies have shown that the companies' excuse that H1-B workers are "the best and brightest" is nothing but hogwash. On average, they do not perform up to the level of the average Americans in the same positions.

    • So they can encourage foreign outsourcing? Doesn't anyone see this as having a negative impact on domestic unemployment?

      No. Any job that can be offshored either has been or will be, because 3rd world countries are even cheaper than guest workers. The jobs remaining here are the ones that can't be offshored so readily.

    • by readin (838620)
      What we need to understand is that some jobs can be exported and some can't. If the job can be exported, it makes sense to bring the foreign worker here where he'll earn an American wage and compete with Americans on an equal footing. It will lower the wage here of course, but not as much as exporting the job to the foreign country would do. Anyone know how much it costs to ship a piece of software from a factory in Poland to America?

      If the job can't be exported, like cleaning hotel rooms, gardening,
    • They essentially have two options here. One is to import people that are actually skilled enough to do the work, since the US education system doesn't seem to provide them but focuses on burger flippers and waitresses instead. The other option is to let the companies either offshore the work completely, or go bankrupt because some foreign company comes up with a competing product and takes over the market. The short term solution is to import people, the long term solution is to put government money in educ
  • Wrong Solution (Score:5, Insightful)

    by litehacksaur111 (2895607) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @06:52PM (#43467269)
    Instead of giving people H1B visas, why don't we just give them green cards, so they have the same employment bargaining rights that US citizens have so it becomes impossible to undercut local wages. Also, for student visa holders who finish school here with MS or PhD degrees we should just grant citizenship for an upfront fee of $8000 so we keep talented people in the US.
    • by Mitreya (579078)

      Instead of giving people H1B visas, why don't we just give them green cards, so they have the same employment bargaining rights that US citizens have so it becomes impossible to undercut local wages.

      I think you answered your own question :)
      In that case H1B visa holders would not be cheaper and who's going to hire them?
      A very large majority of H1B holders are brought in as cheaper labor and a tiny minority are hired as "unavailable talent".

    • Ph D in STEM can already do that. Science Tech Engg and Math grads can jus apply for green card based on their degree. No employer sponsorship is needed. No offer of employment is needed. They already have full bargaining power.

      STEM Masters get an additional 15 months of post completion practical training on top of 12 months of practical training period of other fields, They can work legally for any employer for 27 months. Then the employer has to sponsor them for Green card. The masters come in EB2 categ

      • Ph D in STEM can already do that.

        Thank heavens for that, because almost half of the STEM Ph.D.'s in this country have jobs that justify their degrees. Anything else and we might actually see their pay rising! When that happened back in the 1980's the NSF wisely suggested a vast increase in student visas (with the express and stated purpose of driving down salaries).

      • by Mitreya (579078)

        Ph D in STEM can already do that. Science Tech Engg and Math grads can jus apply for green card based on their degree. No employer sponsorship is needed. No offer of employment is needed. They already have full bargaining power.

        No offense, but I believe you are just making shit up. Do you care to cite a reference? A number of my friends got a PhD and all they get is OPT which is good for 12 months and requires a (relevant) employment offer to match it those 12 months. My roommate is out of US now, because he had no way of staying here after graduating with a PhD.

        You cannot apply for green card based on your PhD degree (unless you come from the parallel universe where common sense prevailed -- as that would be a great idea to allo

        • by Kwyj1b0 (2757125)

          No offense, but I believe you are just making shit up. Do you care to cite a reference? A number of my friends got a PhD and all they get is OPT which is good for 12 months and requires a (relevant) employment offer to match it those 12 months. My roommate is out of US now, because he had no way of staying here after graduating with a PhD.

          You cannot apply for green card based on your PhD degree (unless you come from the parallel universe where common sense prevailed -- as that would be a great idea to allow this).

          Actually, the OP is right: Reference [greencardforphd.com]

          However, the process is hard - the OP made it sound easier than it is. You need to show that you are an extraordinary asset, with skills that are of national merit. You need several reference letters, a lot of top-notch publications (I have heard that you need more than most faculty positions require), and having contacts helps a lot (say, you had a famous advisor with lots of contacts during your Ph.D.).

          The process is still quite long, so you might as well get a job a

          • by TheSync (5291)

            The annual allocation of EB-1 visas is approximately 40,000. In FY 2009, approximately 40 percent of allotted EB-1s went to workers and approximately 60 percent went to spouses and children. EB visas also have a country limit of 7% per country (~2800), so China and India fill these up quickly.

            EB1 has not traditionally had a long backlog, but now it does. In FY 2013, there were 48,639 valid EB-1 applications, and the pipeline is getting more full.
             

          • by readin (838620)
            I remember a few months ago the Republicans were offering a bill to make it easy for foreigners to earn PhDs from American universities to stay. To keep it from affecting overall immigration levels the bill would have cut the number of other people allowed in by the same number.

            The Democrats killed it.
    • by TWX (665546)

      ...so it becomes impossible to undercut local wages.

      The more people available to do a job, the less that job can pay, as any one candidate is now competing with a larger number of other candidates for the same job.

      I'm honestly much less worried about low-paying jobs being filled by immigrant or migrant workers than I am about high-paying jobs. Low-paying jobs have an artificial floor for how much they can be paid, in the form of the Federal Minimum Wage, even for jobs that arguably aren't worth that mi

      • The more people available to do a job, the less that job can pay, as any one candidate is now competing with a larger number of other candidates for the same job.

        When you add more people to the system in general, they don't only take up a job, they also create new jobs by spending the money they earn on goods and services that they need. Were that not the case, all countries would have faced rapid increases in unemployment as their population grew by natural means.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    I've been in IT for 15 years and never have I seen a more anti-American approach to hiring than the H-1B visa debacle. I've seen firms literally taken over by foreigners and every American basically leave because it became uncomfortable to work there.

    The law should be hire Americans first. If no one in the city or state can be found, create a jobs database like the one proposed and people in other states can apply. Once the company has shown they cannot find a qualified applicant in CONUS, Hawaii, Alaska, P

    • need to get rid of fake / bloated qualified lists where they can make so that no one will be qualified.

      • It is illegal to pad the requirements or to tailor it for a pre selected individual. But the companies don't ask for general things like degree in computational physics or chemical engineering. It is always, "Masters in Aerospace engg or equivalent + C++ and/or Java + computational fluid dynamics + navier stokes equation + k-epsilon turbuence modeling + unstructured tetrahedral mesh + time marching" At this point, people who know know it is a tailored requirement. But the dept of labor bureaucrat does not k
        • We have been denigrating, insulting and making fun of civil servants for some 30 years now.

          30 years? More like forever. I don't think that's the problem. TPTB make sure that government employees turn a blind eye to this. Any attempt to seriously cut through this garbage would lead to some very nasty phone calls from some very generous "campaign contributors".

    • by afgam28 (48611)

      Disagree all you wish. We have gave the farm away. All of these people come over here, work for American companies, go home, start companies, and then compete with American companies. It happens all the time.

      OK, I disagree. I'd like to see you name a big non-American tech company that was started by a former H-1B holder.

      I'm not talking about tiny littles ones that employ a few people; I'm talking about foreign multinational tech companies. These are the only companies that will ever "compete with American companies" like Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook and Microsoft.

      Can't think of any? That's probably because it never happens.

  • Get off your butts! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Billly Gates (198444) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @06:56PM (#43467303) Journal

    Instead of whining in a slashdot post go email, call, tweet, or whatever to your senator [senate.gov]! The link I provided is all 100 of them.

    If your senator is a democrat tell them how much wages have not went up and how job ads actually state "H1B1 rates in salary and how employers are abusing the system as it was designed to only allow an employer to hire someone at a comparative rate. Never as a way to lower costs.

    If your senator is a republican tell them it is an assault on the free market as employers get to choose where to hire, but you do not have the choice to do the same. Mention government interference and tax dollars wasted, then close with the same line I had above in your own words how it is not going as intended.

    Also, mention one of the organizations was a fraudalent fake one by Microsoft looking for cheaper workers. Not an actualy organization of I.T. professionals who are lobbying for this as this is self centered and not in the will of your constitutions. Call them too as the staff checks the amount of calls everday and a spike is certainly noticed by the senator.

    Remember the DMCA 2.0 law requiring DRM TCPA chips in every computer sold? It was thrown out after we at slashdot put down such links. Senators got so much of an earfull that was cancelled. Slashdot generates 10,000 if not 100,000 of views for stories. So spend 3 minutes and do your part.

  • Simple solution (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Ukab the Great (87152) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @06:57PM (#43467319)

    Why not just mandate a H1B be paid at least $100,000 a year, no exceptions. If they're really so good, they deserve the money and $100k would be a bargain.

    • They've no fixed value like $100k, but must prove they're paying more than the average pay for that job. It works extremely well, a shockingly huge proportion of Swiss residents are foreigners. In effect, if a Swiss company wants anybody in the world they know exactly what they need to do to hire them, no bullshit, just prove you want them by paying them more.

      Amusingly, the Swiss immigration law exists at three levels, federal, canton, and local, so theoretically you might encounter really messy local imm

  • by PortHaven (242123) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:04PM (#43467387) Homepage

    Can us Americans apply for those jobs?

    Won't that be the irony. H1B visas because there are not enough qualified Americans to work those jobs. But I wager, they'll make it so that Americans can't use the site to apply for those very same jobs.

    *fumes*

    • by ebno-10db (1459097) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:20PM (#43467537)

      Sure, but it won't do you any good. Any self-respecting company has legal staff that's seen the "How to not hire an American" video.

      Interestingly, you can get links to that video from either DailyKos [dailykos.com] or Free Republic [freerepublic.com] (actually the first two sites in a search) so you can see that the outrage covers a pretty broad part of the political spectrum. Not that our congress cares - we're just the @#%#^! voters and citizens of this country.

      • by byuu (1455609)
        They don't have to care. When both parties are doing the same thing, and everyone votes for one or the other (with amazing vitriol about how evil the other party is), why should they?
    • There are very strict rules about advertising in USA and demonstrate that there are no qualified Americans for the job before the employer gets an H1B. The pay should be in par with smiliar skill levels, You can not tailor the requirement to fit a candidate you have in mind or the candidate who is already working for you (in practical training).

      Having said that, many companies find ways to work around this and there are lawyers who specilize in crafting the requirements that pass the muster with the govern

  • by ebno-10db (1459097) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:13PM (#43467469)

    It will require the U.S. Labor Dept. to create a website of H-1B job openings that employers must post to. The jobs must be posted least 30 calendar days before hiring an H-1B applicant to fill that position. The bill also raises wages for H-1B workers to make them more competitive, although the amount wasn't specified.

    Pure window dressing. Is there anyone dumb enough to think this will make a difference? The H-1B has had various "comparable wages" and "no American worker available" provisions for years. It's meaningless because it's never enforced, and I don't expect any magic pixie dust in this bill to change that.

    One provision that will affect India, in particular, limits H-1B visa use to 50% of a firm's U.S. workforce.

    This may actually have some effect, but it's frightening to say that. A crackdown means limiting it to 50% of a company's U.S. workforce? U.S. does mean United States, right?

    • by lgw (121541)

      crackdown means limiting it to 50% of a company's U.S. workforce? U.S. does mean United States, right?

      That will break the model of the current evil consulting firms that exist only to abuse H-1B workers, and have no US citizens employed at all (at the coder level), while having little effect on legitimate firms supplanting their workforce with a few H-1Bs. It's a very cool idea IMO.

  • by Skapare (16644) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:20PM (#43467535) Homepage

    What should be added is to allow H-1B holders to be free agents in the market.

  • also force them to give HB1 full benefits at a level that is same or better then what most of there us workers get.

  • This is a HUGE blessing. I have been working for a company that uses an offshore outsourcer for quite a few years. They suck the brains of the "re-badged" US employees, then let them go, then bring in kids from offshore to perform their jobs. This needs to stop. /sorry, but bitter. //seen too many good people lose their jobs then be replaced by people with no experience. ///this isn't enough.

  • by 140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:33PM (#43467635) Journal
    I came in as F1, got a H1B, got green card and got citizenship just in time to vote against Rick Santorum. Hip hip hurrey! But not all H1Bs are good like me. Some of them, gasp, become Republicans.
    • by Mitreya (579078) <mitreya@gmail . c om> on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:47PM (#43467703)

      I came in as F1, got a H1B, got green card and got citizenship just in time to vote against Rick Santorum. Hip hip hurrey!

      But how did your salary compare to that of your American colleagues while you were an H1B employee?
      H1Bs are not bad because on one ever stays in US, but because it allows for worker exploitation/underpayment (while on H1B).

      • by 140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @10:56PM (#43468953) Journal
        I compared my pay with the median reported in IEEE and concluded I got the top dollar. I was lucky, the company was run by really kind and gentle folks.
      • by shutdown -p now (807394) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @11:11PM (#43469041) Journal

        H1Bs get paid good salaries in tech firms, actually, on par with what the native employees are paid - at least based on my anecdotal evidence (as an H1B with plenty of friends on the same). Microsoft, Google, Amazon and Facebook all do that, and they also start green card applications for their H1Bs as soon as they become eligible - which wouldn't really make much sense if the purpose was to exploit the dependent status. Most people which do this see it as an immigration track towards eventual citizenship, and start settling down almost right away - some don't even wait for a green card to get a home mortgage etc.

        The places that are really abusing the program hard seem to be the "business consulting" sweatshops like Tata, for whom outsourcing is, essentially, the entire business model and their raison d'etre. Those tend to have predominantly Indian employees, who are not sponsored for green cards, and who are considerably underpaid. Also, since those employees know that they won't remain in the country in the end, they tend to spend money less and save it more, since it will have more purchasing power for them once they return to their home country (so they aren't as invested in US economy, further exacerbating the effects).

        Consequently, the obvious solution to this problem would be to ditch H1B as a temp. worker visa, and remake it as a work-towards-citizenship program. This would imply that any person coming to the country on such a visa would has to apply for a green card; and make this process easier and reduce the current (5.5 years and growing!) backlog. It would also be nice to make it easier to switch jobs while still on H1B (I'd say get rid of it entirely, except that you want to ensure that new job has the necessary qualifications - i.e. above prevailing wage, local applicants prioritized etc); most importantly, make it so that changing jobs doesn't reset the green card process, so that employers can't use it as a stick.

    • That's good for you.

      One of the big things this should allow is more people following your path to citizenship. I think one of the things Americans dislike about the H1B visa program are the number of people who don't stay, or have companies that make it difficult to obtain citizenship without having the companies boot on there necks.

      Just look at the GAO report on the issue. The largest employers of H1B visa workers are staffing firms. Quite a few of which use the H1B as a job training visa. Then they ca

  • by t0qer (230538) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:40PM (#43467673) Homepage Journal

    Last time we had this talk, I made this comment
    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3620197&cid=43374569 [slashdot.org]
    One AC response to my comment was sort of scary...

    Yeah, I see a white guy standing in a crowd of filth which probably means now you stink as bad they do. Congrats on being a traitor to your country. It was good of you to post that photo so we know exactly what you look like. After the day the people decide wipe the shit stains off our land, we'll turn their attention to those like you who betrayed their race, for special treatment.

    What the fuck? I thought this was a site of thinkers, geeks, not of xenophobic extremists.

    Rather than waste time on a lengthy post (I am at work) let me just make one simple point...

    100% of H1-B workers that I know wish they could live, work, and pay taxes here. The only issue I take with H1-b is the treatment of said workers. This is a country that once prided itself on harboring the best and brightest from around the world, giving them shelter and refuge in exchange for their knowledge and experience. Now we give them nothing for that.

    • I thought this was a site of thinkers, geeks, not of xenophobic extremists.

      Unfortunately you can find those idiots anywhere.

      The only issue I take with H1-b is the treatment of said workers. This is a country that once prided itself on harboring the best and brightest from around the world, giving them shelter and refuge in exchange for their knowledge and experience. Now we give them nothing for that.

      If we give them nothing, then why do they come here?

      As far as your other points, you're going too far in playing up the myth of American immigration. First, the vast majority of H-1B's are not the "best and brightest". They may be competent, and reasonably well educated, but that doesn't put one in the "best and brightest" category. I'm good at what I do, but I'm not in that category.

      Moreover, "shelter and refuge" are what you give refugees, not hi-tech g

      • If we give them nothing, then why do they come here?

        For an opportunity to earn more money, and use said money to pay for a better living, and raise the family in a safer society (while also paying for that with taxes)?

        You know, that whole "pursuit of happiness" thing...

  • Although from a US citizen perspective, they view the extra VIsas as a negative, truth to be told, In the field of programming and application architecture, you must go where the job is.

    The reason for more Visas, to me, stems from our own US talent not marketing and/or exposing themselves efficiently and more than likely a reluctance to relocate where the work is..

    However, that's not the full truth, it's more often a question of saving money.

    For the most part. Also, foreign talent can either be very ex
  • by Tablizer (95088) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @07:58PM (#43467819) Homepage Journal

    First the plutocrats #@&$'d farm workers by claiming "shortage" so they can pay sh$t wages and get slaves, and now they are #@&$ing tech workers using the same pattern.

  • The truth is (Score:4, Insightful)

    by thammoud (193905) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @08:06PM (#43467909)

    We are trying to hire Java developers in Chicago for a salary range of 80k-120k and NOTHING. H1-B or not. The market is very tight.

    • Re:The truth is (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Todd Knarr (15451) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @08:23PM (#43468047) Homepage

      Check your hiring process. I've run into times when we can't find anyone because all the candidates HR sent us were unsuitable (the ones we interviewed flunked on the basic C/C++ skills test despite claiming a minimum of 5 years experience coding in C/C++), and yet I knew there were at least 2 highly-qualified candidates that HR hadn't sent to us to review because I handed their resumes to HR myself. That right there tells me that the problem might be not that there aren't any candidates but that HR's throwing them out before they ever get looked at. Ditto for recruiters, who probably use the same process HR does to screen candidates.

      I've thought it might be amusing to bypass the HR process entirely, task some of the developers with attending the various techie get-togethers around town and collect qualified candidates that way, then give the hiring manager their resumes directly in addition to sending them to HR. Then if their resumes don't show up, the hiring manager can send them up from his side asking "This candidate looks qualified and we'd like to interview them but they weren't in the stack you sent down. I know it should be there, I had one of my devs run it over to you personally. Can you get back to me about what happened to it?".

      • by Greyfox (87712)
        Yup, I'd lay a lot of the blame for unemployed developers and companies that can't find people on the desks of HR departments around the country. They're very good at finding people who are good at gaming their system by loading their resumes up with buzz words. When you go to interview those candidates, they can never answer even the most basic questions about anything they put on their resume. Meanwhile, people whose resumes you hand to HR yourself tell you they never heard from your company. If you want
      • by chad_r (79875)

        I've thought it might be amusing to bypass the HR process entirely, task some of the developers with attending the various techie get-togethers around town and collect qualified candidates that way, then give the hiring manager their resumes directly in addition to sending them to HR.

        I thought this was normal practice in a job search. The best chance of getting past HR is to send it to an employee at the company, no matter how vaguely you know them. There is sometimes a finder's fee to the employee if you get in, which gives them more of an incentive to follow through.

        HR is crap. I think the chances have been low for a while that a human actually sees it before a keyword matching process rejects it, no matter how closely the resume matches the job description.

    • Re:The truth is (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ebno-10db (1459097) on Tuesday April 16, 2013 @08:43PM (#43468211)

      We are trying to hire Java developers in Chicago for a salary range of 80k-120k and NOTHING. H1-B or not. The market is very tight.

      Maybe the problem is that you're trying to hire "Java developers" instead of good programmers. That's a mentality that seems to have become pervasive. There was a time when people would be embarrassed to say they were looking for a "language X developer". I once interviewed at a place where the interviewer started to ask me about a specific language. Then he stopped himself right in the middle and said "sorry, stupid question".

      Can't find somebody who knows your language du jour? Hire any decent programmer on a probationary basis. If they're not up to speed on the flavor-of-the-year in a month or two, then get rid of them. If you're not willing to invest or chance a month or two then you're not in serious need.

      • by readin (838620)
        I've been doing Java for quite a few years and would like to do something different. I'm finding that employers are looking for specific languages and I'm having trouble getting considered for any job that isn't Java. The differences between object-oriented procedural languages aren't that great and my resume shows that I've learned quite a few different languages. It's pretty frustrating not being considered for jobs that look interesting just because they use a different language.
        • I've gathered that language specific crap has gotten popular, judging from the number of "Java developer" or "C# developer" ads I see. It's ridiculous. No programmer worth his salt should have any trouble learning a new language. Pardon the old fart story, but I actually go back to a time before C was the programmer's lingua franca. I'd just learned the language, and was involved in hiring about a half dozen people for a new project that was going to use it. Not a one of our new hires knew it, and we really
      • I think the issue isn't that they're seeking "Java developers' as in someone who knows basic Java, but more in that they're seeking someone who knows basic Java plus all the frameworks and related stuff (EJBs, JSPs, Spring, Struts, Hibernate, Ant, JUnit, GWT, etc.). It will take more than a few months to get fluent in all of these.
        • They want somebody who knows all the frameworks and related stuff? Good luck. More likely they need someone to work with one or two that they use in house. Yes, it raises the learning curve, but if you're serious about needing people, you'll live with that.
    • by fatalwall (873645)

      Thammoud,

      For those of us who are currently looking would you care to share where these positions are posted?

      The big issue I've noticed is that getting past HR is impossible because they are looking for key words to filter based on. You could literally replace them with a computer and get better results. The person filtering needs to understand that if you have one year in Java and 6 years with C++ and another 3 with C# that you are have significantly more value then the two or three years of java that they

    • or you are to picky about any number of things

      Some of the big ones are a BIG list of skills

      no contractors / temps aka we don't want job hoppers (even when they may of been on a X month contract and when it ended they moved to a different place / contract due to no fault of there own)

      Need X degree (even when out of place AKA CS for IT / desktop jobs) (and some times picky about what school) over experience or even a some kind of more hands on / apprenticeship system.

      X years in version X of X tech.

      resume bot

    • by Ryanrule (1657199)

      PAY MORE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Companies have no problem paying sales assholes a lot of money. Maybe pay the people who do the actual work actual money.

  • Tie H1B visas to the local tech unemployment rate and average salary rate for a given field. Don't allow any more H1B visas into a given metropolitan area until average salaries have gone up and average unemployment has gone down. If there is really a shortage than the market will respond by increasing salaries and decreasing unemployment, let the market do it's work. That would get rid of the bogus job ads that are placed for the explicit purpose of not hiring an American.

    In other words you can't get H1B v

    • Tie H1B visas to the local tech unemployment rate and average salary rate for a given field.

      Better yet, just get rid of it. We did fine as the world's tech leader without it for decades. For truly exceptional people there are always things like the 'O' series visas. People have become so brainwashed by the long existence of this program and the constant cries of "shortage" that they seem to think it serves some reasonable purpose. It doesn't.

      Now to address some of the needs of the employers.

      The employers have no special needs in this regard. Again, they did fine without it for decades. Amazing, isn't it?

      "Shortages" are a normal part of a market

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