The Aging of Our Nuclear Power Plants Is Not So Graceful 436
Lasrick writes "This is a very thoughtful article on nuclear power plant aging: how operators use early retirement of plants to extract concessions from rate-payers and a discussion on how California's 'forward-looking planning process' has probably mitigated disruption from the closing of San Onofre."
NIMBY (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:NIMBY (Score:5, Insightful)
1. The reason reactors are not being built has to do with the cost -- they're not cost-effective for utilities unless they get huge subsidies.
2. Where are you going to put the nuclear waste? No, seriously, stop joking around: where are you *really* going to put the waste? This has been well-studied, and there's no good answer.
3. Improving efficiency is faster and more-effective than increasing output in the near term. Sure, we do need increased capacity, but instead of burning money in the form of subsidies lavished on for-profit energy companies, let's commit real public expenditure on real efficiency initiatives.
Re:NIMBY (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:NIMBY (Score:4, Insightful)
1. The reason reactors are not being built has to do with the cost -- they're not cost-effective for utilities unless they get huge subsidies.
Like, say, burning coal and oil? Let's see what the price of those would be if you had to store the waste.
2. Where are you going to put the nuclear waste?
Burning coal produces a lot more of radioactive dust which is simply put into the air. Almost any solution for (relatively) easy to secure barrels is better to that. Oh, and besides radioactive stuff, you get carbon dioxide, sulphur oxides, nitrogen oxides and a laundry list of other pollutants.
So any comparison that is not biased towards combusting carbon-based deposits by many orders of magnitude shows that if we had any shred of rationality we should replace those with nuclear power. Geothermal is better where it's available, wind not really.
Re:NIMBY (Score:2, Insightful)
So demand side methods turn us all into nice model citizens under threat of removal of service?
Wait, what you just described was turning everyone into model citizens by removing service! No threat needed.
Re:This subject is shill ridden (Score:3, Insightful)
wat to obfuscate real data
How else would someone get big expensive nuculer reactors installed??
Re:NIMBY (Score:0, Insightful)
These consumption reduction plans are voluntary but can get you a lower rate. So if you agree to a demand management system where your hot water heater might delay going on for a little while on the hottest days then you get a lower electric bill. The reason for this is that a peak kilowatt hour is much more expensive than a baseload kilowatt hour, so by shaving off the peak of your personal demand, you can save the utility from having to supply as much power on a peak day from a plant that sits idle 99% of the time. (Yes these plants exist - they're called "peakers.") It is not about behaving like a model citizen. It is about responding rationally to available economic incentives.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:NIMBY (Score:5, Insightful)
With all due respect, you appear to fail to understand the distinction between base load plants and topping plants.
Base load plants supply the huge amount of power that MUST BE THERE 24x7. Topping plants supply the variable amount that is or is not needed depending on seasons, weather, uncharacteristic heat waves, sudden cold snaps, Pink Floyd concert light shows...
MOST of the power demand is base load demand. Heating and cooling don't stop. Water pumping doesn't stop. Hospitals run 24x7. Ditto traffic lights.
For topping plants, there are lots of choices, natural gas being a popular one. For base load plants, there are at the moment exactly three viable choices: hydroelectric, coal, and nuclear (to be precise, negative void coefficient pressurized water reactors). We are maxed out on hydroelectric power: every dammable river in the country has already been dammed. Coal is about the dirtiest power generation technology known to man, as well as one of the most dangerous (Google "black lung disease" someday). That leaves nuclear as Hobson's Choice, if you actually care about environmental and safety issues. (Hint: Of the three, only one emits significant quantities of carbon dioxide.) (For that matter, if coal plants were held to the radiation release limits applied to nuclear plants, it would be impossible to light up a coal plant, because of the radioisotopes in the coal (carbon-14 being the big one) that go straight up the smokestack and into the atmosphere.)
*ANY* base load plant costs a lot of money and takes a long time to build, because, by their very nature, they are BIG.
Finally, observe that wind and solar are utterly unsuitable for base load, because the wind doesn't always blow, and the sun effectively "goes out" for several hours every day.
Re:NIMBY (Score:3, Insightful)
I invite you to observe that the quantity of nuclear waste per kilowatt-hour generated is very very small, compared to the quantity of carbon dioxide and other pollutants, including radioactives, emitted per kilowatt-hour by a coal-burning plant.
You COULD figure this out by noticing that a coal-fired plant takes many, many freight trains of coal per year to haul the fuel in, while a nuclear plant takes on semi-trailer I think every two years or so.
It is also worth noticing that the United States is the only country doing nuclear power generation that does not recycle (reprocess) the spent fuel rods, so that more energy may be extracted, leaving less total waste.
Retirement isn't bad (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:NIMBY (Score:5, Insightful)
I have no idea where your 1.2 GW per person figure comes from
Turn in your nerd card. [youtube.com]
Re:How about some actual research? (Score:4, Insightful)
What I find utterly baffling is that research in this field appears to be dead in the USA, Europe and Japan.
Why would any company in their right mind research new reactor designs in countries where the government won't let them be built?
Re:This subject is shill ridden (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think they're shills. Fanboys, perhaps, but not shills. Honestly, the nuclear industry just doesn't seem big enough to warrant forum shills. Talking heads or TV experts, yeah, possible shills, but not Slashdotters. We're not that important.
I, for one, think nuclear is something we need to be using more, but I'm advocating a nuclear+hydro+geothermal+solar+wind+tidal as a replacement for coal+gas+oil, not as a pure nuclear solution (at least, until we get fusion working - if fusion delivers on its promises, I would have zero issue with a pure-fusion power grid). But if you want to advocate a pure-renewable system, I wouldn't downmod you (I've actually got mod points right now).
Just a suggestion, though? Saying "we need more studies" or "what's the *real* cost?" tends to come across more like FUD than actual debate, particularly when you're coming from a position that is just as questionable in those areas. Maybe they're thinking *you're* the shill?
Re:NIMBY (Score:5, Insightful)
Citation needed.
Oh please, really? Do you honestly believe that environmentalists don't deliberately delay power plant construction (especially nuclear) in the United States? Give me a break. Also, I said that it was a substantial cost, not the only cost. The problem is legal and economic, so it cannot be solved by a new reactor design because it wouldn't matter what design was proposed to the environmentalists, they'd still be against it. The legal problems require political not technical solutions and the economic problems are largely caused by the legal and political problems. Dragging out engineering projects, in the courts and through political maneuvering, is expensive and that's were the delays deal economic damage. The environmentalists wouldn't use those tactics if they weren't effective.
please explain how the failure of WPPSS in the late 70's and early 80's was the result of this versus economic, technical, and competency factors.
Are you going to tell me that there wasn't a single lawsuit filed or political agitation conducted by environmental groups opposed to a new reactor? I don't believe that the problem is entirely caused by technology or lack of engineering competency.
Then please explain how the new designs will escape this fate. After all, since there must be places which don't have this problem, these new designs must be operating successfully in large numbers. Where are these places?
Of course new designs cannot solve what amounts to a problem of politics. As for where nuclear power is widespread, how about France? I think that there are three basic reasons why France was able to build many reactors, using a modified US design (Westinghouse I think) no less, while things have been more problematic here in the US. First, France has almost no natural deposits of either coal, natural gas or petroleum and few rivers to be dammed so for the French it was pretty much nuclear or nothing. Second, the French have a much greater faith in their scientists and engineers than we do here in the United States. The French scientists and engineers in turn work hard to earn and sustain that trust by doing good work. I cannot recall there ever being a serious nuclear accident in France for example. Finally, it seems that the French legal system doesn't allow for NIMBYs to get in the way of projects that are deemed to be in the national interest whereas anyone with money for the filing fees can cause no end of legal trouble here in the United States.
In any case, it will still take decades for them to come on line in significant numbers at BEST (based on production estimates).
Wah, wah, wah it's too hard and it takes to long to get strated so why even try right? There's a productive attitude. You could use that argument against just about anything worth doing. Indeed, just imagine where we might be as a nation today if we allowed that objection to override all good sense. The difficulty of the task should inform our long term planning, but it shouldn't be taken as a reason to do nothing or not to get started. I could trot out that same argument for why we should do nothing about global warming, why bother to do anything now when the benefits won't be seen for decades, but I suspect that you wouldn't like the argument as much in that case.
Sure, it's not base load, but maybe we should be looking at a solution for that?
I don't claim to be omniscient, is there something else that we ought to be looking at? Something perhaps that all of the other scientists and engineers around the world have missed? I doubt it, but I'm willing to be surprised. Please tell us your brilliant plan for replacing all of the world's base load nuclear generation with fairy dust and unicorn farts (this ought to be good).
Re:NIMBY (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, because the utilities haven't thought about *any* of these problems.
If they have they don't seem to care. Consider their initial rollout strategy here in California: move fast and install as many meters as possible before people realize what's going on or have a chance to respond. Naturally, this sort of rough shod approach led to considerable backlash in California where the people have fought numerous political battles with the public utilities over the years. So no, I don't think that they thought about any of those potential problems. I think that they saw an opportunity to cut their costs and increase profits and rushed to get as many smart meters installed as possible, with or without the knowledge of the property owners, before opt-out regulations could be passed by state and local governments.
How about a neighbourhood with AC 'rolling blackouts'?
We tried rolling blackouts here in California during the electricity crisis [wikipedia.org] brought on by ill considered deregulation of the power market. The people of California didn't much care for them, but hey the people in your state might love them, right?
Each house is told to turn off their AC for 15 minutes every 2 hours.
Oh, that's just perfect. The all powerful government, that reads your emails and listens to your phone calls, and in whose wisdom you trust completely asks you to turn of your AC for 15 minutes every 2 hours. So of course you will just do what they ask, I mean who could possibly have a problem with that, right? Please.
nobody actually cares since AC off for 15 minutes is barely noticable.
You've never lived in Arizona have you?
Lather, rinse, repeat for other appliances. Car? Home owner decides how much 'expensive' electricity VS cheap overnight electricy to use, say "charge to 50%, but contimue only if rates fall below X".
Or they could just continue driving their used fossil fuel burning car, you know the one that's fully depreciated and still runs great, and not worry about any of that.
This actually isn't rocket science, and your naysaying is part of the problem.
If you want people to change their ways then you'll have to figure out how to offer them something better than the stick. Asking people to make do with less "for the good of all" and then forcing them to obey with government mandates and decrees is not the way to achieve energy savings or social peace. In fact, it often has the opposite effect, particularly in red states, as people use more energy on purpose to spit in the eye of big government and meddling busybodies who propose such things. You might not like that, but that's reality.
thoughtful, eh? (Score:4, Insightful)
You know, it could be that the author is somewhat biased... The entire article is about problems with the design of large nuclear plants-- hard to repair and expensive to build, it says-- so the obvious conclusion would be to build smaller, more flexible designs, right? But just to guard against Wrong Think it closes with this note:
And:
I might point out that since in fact, the safety of the nuclear industry is exlemplary by any reasonable standard -- like deaths/kilowatt -- maybe one should also be skeptical about these accusations of broken promises?
Re:Really? (Score:4, Insightful)
Is the article suggesting that in fifty years there has been little progress in making them more economical to build and run?
The biggest problem is that while specialized parts and materials may become more readily available which should translate into lower prices, regulations and safety requirements have become a whole lot tighter over time and costs associated with that have increased much faster.
You can compare this to the aviation industry where a bolt that would cost $0.10 at the local hardware store if you were allowed to get it from there ends up costing $20 because of certifications. It sounds completely nuts but that's how it is in fields obsessed with safety and regulations... if you watch Mayday (a show/documentary that recreates the story of real crashes and near-catastrophes), there are a few episodes where maintenance engineers ended up with hundreds of deaths or at the very least terrorized passengers on their conscience for things as simple as using the wrong - though seemingly identical - bolts.
Re:NIMBY (Score:3, Insightful)
There's no carbon-14 in coal.
What are you, one of those evolutionists or something? Two C14 half lives (11400 years) is longer than the age of the Earth, and that coal has fossil plants in it which means it was created after the third day of Creation. Did Jesus die for nothing?