Tesla CEO Elon Musk: Fuel Cells Are 'So Bull@%!#' 479
Frosty P sends this quote from AutoblogGreen:
"Elon Musk is unafraid to speak his mind. Whether he's talking about other players in the electric vehicle space or sub-par reporting from The New York Times, this is a man with few filters. Musk says that fuel cells are not part of the solution that electric vehicles offer for giving up the hydrocarbon addiction. After commenting that the only reason some automakers are pursuing hydrogen technology is for marketing purposes, that lithium batteries are superior mass- and volume-wise for a given range, and that fuel cells are too expensive, Musk capped it all off with the safety issue. 'Oh god, a fuel cell is so bull@%!#,' Musk said. 'Hydrogen is quite a dangerous gas. You know, it's suitable for the upper stage of rockets, but not for cars,' he said."
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Informative)
There's a bit more to it than that, jackass. [teslamotors.com]
a Model S traveling at highway speed struck a large metal object, causing significant damage to the vehicle. A curved section that fell off a semi-trailer was recovered from the roadway near where the accident occurred and, according to the road crew that was on the scene, appears to be the culprit. The geometry of the object caused a powerful lever action as it went under the car, punching upward and impaling the Model S with a peak force on the order of 25 tons. Only a force of this magnitude would be strong enough to punch a 3 inch diameter hole through the quarter inch armor plate protecting the base of the vehicle.
As well, the firefighters made it worse before they made it better:
"When the fire department arrived, they observed standard procedure, which was to gain access to the source of the fire by puncturing holes in the top of the battery's protective metal plate and applying water. For the Model S lithium-ion battery, it was correct to apply water (vs. dry chemical extinguisher), but not to puncture the metal firewall, as the newly created holes allowed the flames to then vent upwards into the front trunk section of the Model S. Nonetheless, a combination of water followed by dry chemical extinguisher quickly brought the fire to an end."
Re:Hydrogen is indeed quite dangerous... (Score:5, Informative)
Did you forget the Hindenberg? Hydrogen can explode, as well as burn. Back to elementary chemistry for you Bubba.
The cause of the Hindenberg incident has never actually been determined. [wikipedia.org] Maybe do a little research yourself before launching the ad hominems, eh?
Thanks for playing.
Re:Hydrogen is indeed quite dangerous... (Score:2, Informative)
Hindenburg.
Re:Hydrogen is indeed quite dangerous... (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, it's so dangerous I remember them demoing it in elementary school. Indoors. Without so much as warning the fire department. They filled some balloons with hydrogen and then lit them with a match. It was so horribly explosive, students had to stay at least 10 whole feet away. So dangerous, you'd miss the fireball it if you blinked.
Re:Sorry, But He's a Douche (Score:2, Informative)
While I will agree that Elon has about all the charm and tact of the average fanboy around here I will say that your calling him out over his claims that hydrogen gas is dangerous because hydrogen is an element to be found in water is about as dumb as it gets.
Re:Hydrogen is indeed quite dangerous... (Score:5, Informative)
Did you forget the Hindenberg? Hydrogen can explode, as well as burn. Back to elementary chemistry for you Bubba.
The Hindenberg did not explode. It burned quickly, but most of the hydrogen burned outside of the frame. Of the 97 people on board, the majority survived. Many of those that died were killed by gravity, not heat. As long as your electric vehicle doesn't rely on hydrogen's buoyancy to keep it suspended hundreds of feet above the ground, you will likely be fine. The problem with hydrogen is not safety, but economics.
Re:Well, he's not wrong (Score:3, Informative)
The new infrastructure needed for charging stations is not anywhere near as great as would be needed if we switched to fuel cells for cars.
Re:Hydrogen is indeed quite dangerous... (Score:4, Informative)
Hindenburg isn't transliterated, it's German, which uses the exact same alphabet as English (with the exception of four additional characters). So spelling does matter.
If you were talking about an Arabic or Chinese name, you'd be correct.
Re:Hydrogen is indeed quite dangerous... (Score:5, Informative)
"Hydrogen fires are notable for being less destructive to immediate surroundings than gasoline explosions because of the buoyancy of H2, which causes heat of combustion to be released upwards more than circumferentially as the leaked mass ascends in the atmosphere; hydrogen fires are more survivable than fires of gasoline and of wood. The hydrogen in the Hindenburg burned out within about 90 seconds."
Hydrogen fires are some of the safest to be around. Most of the people inside on the ship at the time survived the Hindenberg disaster. The fire wasn't as deadly as many other transportation accidents with diesel or jet fuel or gasoline.
Quandary (Score:5, Informative)
As much as I regard Elon as a self-aggrandising pillock, I have to agree with him here.
The perfect fuel cell as used on spacecraft and the like burns hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity, heat and water. Fuel cells intended for use on Earth use air rather than pure oxygen for logistical reasons, air is all around us after all, and the resulting exhaust contains nitrous compounds as well as water. Sometimes the NOx, nitric acid etc. corrodes the red-hot fuel cell catalysts which can be an expensive bummer.
Fuels used in fuel cells can range from hydrogen up through assorted hydrocarbon fuels like butane, ammonia, oddballs like dimethyl ether and the like. Adding carbon gets more energy per kilo of fuel but adds CO2 to the exhaust and possibly traces of other interesting chemicals like CO, cyanogens, dioxins etc. and may cause more damage to the catalysts in conjunction with the NOx compounds.
Hydrogen is a piss-poor fuel for vehicles. It's low-density per joule stored, damages ordinary steels through hydrogen embrittlement and in gas form leaks very easily through joints, gaskets and even through the metal walls of containers given a chance as hydrogen is the smallest molecule known, the escape artist of the periodic table. Liquefying it is energy-intensive, it has to be kept very cold and LH2 is also very low density, the least dense liquid known in fact.
Re:Hydrogen is indeed quite dangerous... (Score:4, Informative)
You don't need to transliterate it, it is written on the side. [msn.com]
Re:Hydrogen is indeed quite dangerous... (Score:4, Informative)
Not really [wikipedia.org]. Among other things, the flame is invisible, which surprisingly is a major safety issue.
Beyond that, the main problems are storing enough of it (because it is so light) for reasonably long times (because it leaks through normal metal tanks).
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Hydrogen is indeed quite dangerous... (Score:4, Informative)