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Object Blocking Giant Tunnel Borer Was an 8" Diameter Pipe 141

Posted by Soulskill
from the at-least-it-wasn't-zombies dept.
An anonymous reader writes "A few weeks ago we discussed news that a tunnel boring machine measuring 57.5 feet in diameter was halted underneath Seattle after running into a mysterious object. Project engineers have now figured out what the object is: an 8-inch-diameter pipe. In 2002, researchers for another project — the replacement of the Alaskan Way viaduct — drilled down into the ground to take water samples. They used the 115-ft-long pipe as a well casing. As it turns out, this well site was listed in the contract specifications given to all bidders for the tunnel's construction. In addition, the crew manning the machine noticed that it was chewing up pieces of metal, and they removed part of the pipe and kept going. Only later did they realize that significant damage had been done to the machine's cutting face. Officials aren't sure how long repairs will take, or how much they will cost."
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Object Blocking Giant Tunnel Borer Was an 8" Diameter Pipe

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  • by petteyg359 (1847514) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @01:52PM (#45865881)
    Looks like somebody forgot to RTFM.
    • by cold fjord (826450) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:11PM (#45866023)

      Looks like somebody forgot to RTFM.

      In this case they get to RTFM: Repair The Fine Machine

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Good news, everybody! We finally found that pipe we lost 2002! I've felt so guilty about not recycling that, but now I can sleep at night. Carry on.

    • by Dogtanian (588974) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:47PM (#45866267) Homepage

      (From article summary):- "As it turns out, this well site was listed in the contract specifications given to all bidders for the tunnel's construction. "

      Looks like somebody forgot to RTFM.

      Looks like they should have had a "Brown M&Ms" [snopes.com] clause in the contract for just that reason.

      And if anyone doesn't get the reference (or even more so if you think you do, but don't get what the archetypal ludicrously demanding rock band rider has to do with tunnel boring), read the linked article.

      • For those that don't want to RTFR (read the fucking reference) some band use to put at the beginning of the contract that they wanted M&Ms in their room and then at the end of the contract put all the brown M&Ms must be picked out. If they arrived and saw the brown M&Ms they knew the contract was not read and would check to see what else was forgotten and/or cancel the show since the contract was not followed.
        • by Dogtanian (588974) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @03:43PM (#45866533) Homepage
          Unfortunately, your summary omits or misrepresents several aspects of the article and in the process dilutes (if not entirely misses) the point, as well as making it less interesting. Honestly, it's only a single-page Snopes article [snopes.com]- if you don't know the story already, it's worth spending a minute or two reading.

          Anyway:-

          (i) The "brown M&Ms" clause *wasn't* at the end of the contract- where it would have been more likely to stand out- it was (presumably intentionally) hidden amongst all the other countless (but important) technical requirements.

          (ii) The clause also stated that if it was not followed *the entire show would be forfeit*. That's a rather major penalty, and one anyone who'd actually been paying atention would be almost certain to want to avoid by following it to the letter. Hence its effectiveness as an indicator.

          (iii) You also omit *why* it was so essential that the technical requirements were followed closely. (I could summarise that, but I'd probably just end up rewriting paragraphs that are more effective in context anyway; just read the blooming thing! :-) )
          • by Anonymous Coward

            TL;DR version.

            *Van Halen concerts need a LOT of amperage for their very heavy equipment.
            *Venues aren't providing amperage, circuit breakers are blowing, and concerts are ruined. Floors are also being damaged by said heavy equipment and venues are unhappy.
            *Van Halen put their exact requirements in their contract so this doesn't happen.
            *Van Halen inserts "M&M clause" as a mine canary to deal with bullshit venues that can't read simply documents.
            * Brown M&Ms mean call in an electrician to check everyth

            • by Dogtanian (588974)
              Same mistake as the previous guy- in an attempt to "summarise" the article you've omitted details that make clear the logic behind the clause, and introduced inaccuracy.

              Van Halen concerts need a LOT of amperage for their very heavy equipment.

              Still misleading; makes it sound like the amperage was needed because the equipment was "heavy". Also, you're extrapolating things that weren't actually mentioned in the article.

              If you read the article, the heavy equipment (which could- and did- damage floors that weren't designed to take it) was the *only* specific, detailed example given

        • And for those of you who are really interested, you can read where it is mentioned in the the actual backstage rider here [thesmokinggun.com].

          The bit about the M&Ms is on page 9.

          Actually, a rather fun site. Apparently Dick Cheney's contract [thesmokinggun.com] required that his hotel room have the TV set to Fox News. And Iggy Pop's [thesmokinggun.com] contract is pure rock'n'roll.

          Anyway, the point of it all is that it is important to read the whole contract and then follow up with the agreed upon conditions. It's as true for venues signing Van Halen as it is for

      • by denzacar (181829)

        And if anyone doesn't get the reference (or even more so if you think you do, but don't get what the archetypal ludicrously demanding rock band rider has to do with tunnel boring), read the linked article.

        Iggy Pop has taken that to a whole new level. [thesmokinggun.com]

    • It seems retarded that each day or during each little bit of down time that Bertha isn't cutting that the surveyors don't perform a forward looking ultrasound / radar / metal detection. They're cutting 50 feet a day, they can reasonably look forward and see if there is anything coming up that might be an issue.
      • It would be even easier to check for refined metal from the cutting face or a foreign object in the conveyer waste. Situations like these have me convinced that the contractors intentionally ignore warning signs so they can milk contracts for the overages.
    • RTFM? I thought it'd be to RTFSIR.

  • Even recent stuff tends not to be recorded in a nice way, like a computerized 3d model that can be used to keep all the data in one place and plan excavations. Instead it's often just a list of things in freeform text, like "well site at [lat,long], dug 2002, depth 115 ft". And older stuff is even less well documented; nobody really has an accurate map of what's under NYC.

    • by Mashiki (184564) <mashiki@gmail. c o m> on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:40PM (#45866225) Homepage

      You're spot on with that, look around quickly and you'll find dozens if not hundreds of stories about fiber, water, sewer, and NG being cut because *insert company* laid it out differently than what was in the plans, then refused to update said plans, or even come out and mark. In my own backyard(southern ontario) we still run into things like wood sewer pipes, in use but unmarked. Plank roads with the cast belting retrofit anywhere between 8" to 4' under the road surface, and early 1930's cast iron water and sewer pipes that are still in use, but not documented.

      • by davester666 (731373) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @03:42PM (#45866531) Journal

        We intentionally don't update plans, or even have plans to begin with, because terrorists will use the plans to, well, plan how to attack us.

        The only solution to plan less, and destroy all existing plans.

      • With some cities existing for >1000 years and having been dug over in WW2, there is often no knowing of what to expect when digging through the underground. Recently a builder operating a digger was killed [n-tv.de] by a WW2 era dud. Experts estimate that there are still 100k duds lying around and each year about 5k are being found.
        • Seems to me that those are dud duds.

      • by sjames (1099) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @05:15PM (#45866975) Homepage

        That's why you should always carry a foot of fiber in your pocket.

        If you're ever stranded in the middle of nowhere, just bury the fiber. When the backhoe shows up to break it, hitch a lift.

        • by volmtech (769154)
          I bought some farm land that had a major electrical transmission line run across it. We just farmed between the poles. While cleaning out a drainage ditch, with my backhoe, I noticed a length of (not cable, thank God) red marking tape that read "Warning! Fiber". Apparently there was a cable burred underground along the path of the power lines. It must have been quite deep because I had dug a deep ditch on the other side of the field and hadn't hit it. There were no warning signs anywhere indicating cable
          • And you are a jackass for not using the onecall service to see if it is ok to dig.

            • by Mashiki (184564)

              And you are a jackass for not using the onecall service to see if it is ok to dig.

              In some places, not everyone has "onecall" or it's equivalent. Just as a helpful point, here in Ontario it only came into existence in the last year or two. Where in other parts of the country it's been out for a decade or so.

            • by volmtech (769154)
              Rural area, miles from nowhere, No idea the phone company was piggy backing under the utility easement. The cable was buried deep with a warning tape so tragedy averted.
          • by Vrtigo1 (1303147)

            I noticed a length of red marking tape that read "Warning! Fiber".

            There were no warning signs anywhere indicating cable buried.

            You realize that these two statements directly contradict each other, right?

            • by volmtech (769154)
              My mistake, no readily visible signs. This tape was BURIED three feet under ground. Only after making a deep gouge with the backhoe did this tape appear in the teeth of the digging bucket. The warning was, " Don't dig any deeper! "
        • by oobayly (1056050)

          Personally, I carry a deck of playing cards - whenever I get lost I start play a patience game. When someone looks over my shoulder and says "you should put the queen on the king" I ask for directions.

      • by pspahn (1175617) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @05:23PM (#45867011)

        Part of my line of work involves calling in "locates" prior to digging. This is generally done on behalf of our customer. Most of the time, people are happy and welcome the security of knowing where things are in the ground behind their house. On occasion, there's the idiot individual that refuses based on some kind of principle or that a locate was already done five years ago. In those cases, we tell them we can either leave the trees in their yard for them, the install costs forfeited, and they can dig the holes and plant the trees themselves, or they can have the locate done so none of the crew guys have to worry about smacking a natural gas line with a skid steer.

        Maps and plans are useless. The only way to know what is in your dirt is to have a locate done and most municipalities will/should do this at no cost to the home owner. This also gives you indemnification in the event that you do end up hitting something that needs repair (so long as you dig within the time frame allowed).

        • by Anonymous Coward

          As someone that does the locates. Typically the major utilities are covered by a one call system (digsafe) you make one call to digsafe, and digsafe notifies all the utilities in the area. ie gas, water, phone, tv, electric, major pipelines.

          Propane is the one that I've run into that doesn't get covered by digsafe. You can hire private utility locators for a cost.

          The utilities own the pipes in the ground for the most part, its their infrastructure, they send people out to locate it. Its the law. In M

      • by Solandri (704621) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @06:16PM (#45867221)
        That happened at the hotel I used to work at. One of the tour buses entering hit and knocked over a gate, which hit an electric utility pole. I never got the next part of the story straight, and probably nobody knows for sure. But the underground piling holding the gate bent and burst an unmarked gas line as it shifted underground, and somehow a spark from it or the power pole lit the gas.

        The ensuing fire required 2 fire trucks, 4 Gas Company trucks, and one Edison truck on-site as they tried to figure out what to do. The hotel was over 100 years old and the break was before the meter so in a section of pipe that was the Gas Company's responsibility. They couldn't find any records of where they had originally installed the gas lines, so they couldn't simply go upstream and turn a valve to shut off the gas, at least not without shutting off gas to the entire neighborhood. They had to bring in special equipment to trace the pipe underground several hundred feet upstream to the main pipe under the road. They determined no shutoff valve had been installed when the line was first constructed. So they picked a good spot between the fire and the road, dug down (with shovels so as not to cause another break), and spliced in a new shutoff valve. The fire burned for over 2 days while they did all this. The gate was ruined. The power pole was a write-off and Edison had to install a new one. I spoke with the Gas Company guy in charge of the whole thing and he said this was the biggest incident he'd ever been involved in in his 30 year career, and it was the main topic of discussion for several days among all the Gas Company branches in the entire Southwest U.S. We were just fortunate the fire was in a remote location and didn't spread.

        Always document your work.
    • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

      by cold fjord (826450)

      Even recent stuff tends not to be recorded in a nice way, like a computerized 3d model that can be used to keep all the data in one place and plan excavations.

      This incident is more than a little surprising given the proliferation of geospatial information systems, which Seattle has [seattle.gov]. Of course it doesn't matter if the data exists if you don't use it.

      What is Geospatial Information? [linz.govt.nz]

      Geospatial information is information describing the location and names of features beneath, on or above the earth's surface. At its simplest this can mean the basic topographical information found on a map, but also includes different location-related datasets combined into complex layers that show information such as land use and population density.

      Geospatial information supports a wide range of business, government and community activities, and the use and re-use of this information has significant productivity-related benefits.

      The terms "geospatial information", "spatial information" and "location-based information" are often used interchangeably.

    • by chrismcb (983081)
      Too bad it is impossible to take a list of lats and longs and depths and generate a map.
      For a project this size, you could hire a few people to read the paper work and pull the lats and longs out.
    • Most stuff actually is fairly well recorded "somewhere". No work gets done without getting locates before (yellow, orrange, blue lines etc), that are generated by surveyors based on both as-built plans, and confirmed on-site from geophysical investigation instruments, be it metal detercors or ground penetrating radar etc.

      After something is installed you have to provide detailed plans of location depth etc. usually in the form of drawings (both plan and profile for line structurese such as utility pipes or c

  • by K. S. Kyosuke (729550) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @01:59PM (#45865931)
    But it turns out that the boring machine found a boring object! (Why am I not surprised?)
  • From TFA:

    Chris Dixon, project director for contractor group Seattle Tunnel Partners, said the builders presumed there would be no pipe in the way, because casings are customarily removed after use.

    When I dig in hole in my backyard, I may presume there's nothing in the ground. That's because if I hit a snag, my cost will be the price of the shovel.

    But for a $1.44B hole in the ground, I'd want to make damn sure every inch I dig through presents abolutely no risk whatsoever. And since that's taxpayer's money,

    • by gman003 (1693318) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:06PM (#45865987)

      But for a $1.44B hole in the ground, I'd want to make damn sure every inch I dig through presents abolutely no risk whatsoever.

      And how do you suppose they are to do that? The only real way to see exactly what is underground is to dig a hole. Sonar only gets you so far, records are sketchy and incomplete, at the end of the day the only way to be 100% sure there's nothing in the way of digging a hole is to dig the damn hole.

      This was a fuckup, sure, but it's on the scale of "we hit something we knew we were going to hit (although not exactly where), we removed it when we hit it, but it turns out it fucked up the drill head when we tried to drill through it." I wouldn't bet on this causing the whole billion-dollar project to fail - it's most likely to be a couple hundred grand, maybe a few million in repairs. And that's coming out of the contractor's profits, not from the state, most likely.

      • by mc6809e (214243) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:16PM (#45866055)

        This was a fuckup, sure, but it's on the scale of "we hit something we knew we were going to hit (although not exactly where), we removed it when we hit it, but it turns out it fucked up the drill head when we tried to drill through it." I wouldn't bet on this causing the whole billion-dollar project to fail - it's most likely to be a couple hundred grand, maybe a few million in repairs.

        The problem could be serious in terms of time and effort, though. The machine is meant to only go forward -- there is no reverse. Repairing the bits on the face of the machine will require excavating a large void in front of the machine just to create room for the repair work itself. That probably means old and slow classic mining techniques will need to be used.

        • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 04, 2014 @03:03PM (#45866349)
          The cutting bits are designed to be replaced; it's a PITA process but it's very much a normal operating procedure. (They're bolted in from the back; the top picture on the tunnel boring machine [wikipedia.org] wikipedia page shows a machine with all the bits removed.)

          The problem is if there has been damage to the rest of the face, the support structure around the bits. This is not accessible while the machine is in operation, particularly for an earth pressure balance machine like they're using [djcoregon.com]. (Required when there's lots of groundwater or a need to minimize surface disturbance, such as in an urban area.)

        • by Anonymous Coward

          I'd be rather surprised if there wasn't limited reverse (usually about 3-4'), as that's how you get enough working space in front of the head to replace worn cutting discs.

          • by ZosX (517789)

            Did you even read the grandparent? The cutters can be replaced from inside the machine. If there is damage to the face, they may find it impossible to replace the cutters. The area where the cutter is located is under high pressure and inundated with water. Yeah, they can back it up, but that still leaves the pressure and water to deal with.

      • And how do you suppose they are to do that?

        In this case, it's just a matter of making a phone call. As in "Hello, Alaskan Way Viaduct project officials? This is STP. The DOT says you bore a hole in the ground in 2002. We're just calling to make sure you guys removed the pipe."

        One quick phone call. Just like that...

        I'm not saying each and every danger can be predicted in a project like that, but in this case, the hazard was known and could have been fully assessed.

        Also, while all potential problems can't be

        • by Cryacin (657549) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @02:39PM (#45866215)
          Yeah, that'll probably work something like this...

          Welcome to Alaskan Way Viaduct customer support. Your call is important to us. We are receiving a higher than expected level of calls at the moment and thank you for your patience. You're approximate waiting time will be 30 minutes.

          4 hours later
          Pleased to be welcome to Alaskan Way Viaduct customer support, how may I help you?

          "Hello, Alaskan Way Viaduct project officials? This is STP. The DOT says you bore a hole in the ground in 2002. We're just calling to make sure you guys removed the pipe."
          Pleased to be sorry, sir, I do not know what you mean about DOT.

          15 minute explanation later...

          Pleased to be putting you through to my manager

          2 hours later

          This is Alaskan Way Viaduct level 2 support, how may I help?

          "Hello, Alaskan Way Viaduct project officials? This is STP. The DOT says you bore a hole in the ground in 2002. We're just calling to make sure you guys removed the pipe."

          The documentation states that the pipe has been removed sir.
        • "Hello, uh, ummm, Alaska Way, um, wow, I mean Seattle Viaduct, no, woowowowowo, Alaska Way Viaduct project, can I help you?"
          "This is STP, the DOT says you bored a hole in the ground in 2002 We're just calling to make sure you removed the pipe."
          "Pipe? Wowoww. Yeah, I've got the pipe right here."
          "Did you remove it from the the path of the borer."
          "Umm, wowowow, sure! Right, we did"
          "OK, thanks."
          "No problemo, dude"

          -- Click --

          "Hey, didn't Mary give you that pipe last week."

          Has anybody been in Seattle recentl

        • by hawguy (1600213)

          And how do you suppose they are to do that?

          In this case, it's just a matter of making a phone call. As in "Hello, Alaskan Way Viaduct project officials? This is STP. The DOT says you bore a hole in the ground in 2002. We're just calling to make sure you guys removed the pipe."

          One quick phone call. Just like that...

          I'm not saying each and every danger can be predicted in a project like that, but in this case, the hazard was known and could have been fully assessed.

          Also, while all potential problems can't be avoided, at $1.44Bn, they should at least try their best to minimize them.

          You're assuming that they have the 10 year old documentation and that it's accurate.

          I don't know about underground hazard documentation, but anyone that's every looked at as-builts for any sizeable building can tell you that the as-builts have only a loose connection to reality. The contract may have said that they pulled the casing out of the ground, but maybe it broke off 20 feet below the surface and they said "Good enough!" and just left the rest there.

      • by jasnw (1913892)
        I don't see this coming out of the contractor's fee. From local news reporting (I live in Seattle) this looks to me like the state is the up-gefucking party here, and if I were the state I'd be looking to avoid being sued by the contractor for providing misleading/incomplete information during the bid process. I expect that total cost of this little mishap will be well into the $1M+ range, and it'll come out of contingency money. Since we're still early in the dig process and haven't even gotten to the h
      • And how do you suppose they are to do that?

        Ground penetrating radar?

    • What, you've never seen any of those "Call Before You Dig" signs that the utilities companies pepper all over the place? The cost can be a hell of a lot higher than the price of a shovel if you're in a remotely suburban area.

    • by hawguy (1600213)

      From TFA:

      Chris Dixon, project director for contractor group Seattle Tunnel Partners, said the builders presumed there would be no pipe in the way, because casings are customarily removed after use.

      When I dig in hole in my backyard, I may presume there's nothing in the ground. That's because if I hit a snag, my cost will be the price of the shovel.

      But for a $1.44B hole in the ground, I'd want to make damn sure every inch I dig through presents abolutely no risk whatsoever. And since that's taxpayer's money, if I was Seattle resident, I'd sure as hell want to know who the fuck "presumed" stuff on my money...

      Actually, if you're digging in your back yard with any sort of power tools, you should still call your local utility locating service first to make sure there are no gas lines or other infrastructure buried in your back yard.

      You're probably safe digging with hand tools (there's usually a marker tape or cable above more recent pipes), but if you're using something like a pickaxe or hammering a rod into the ground, you really ought to check first or you may find yourself on the hook for expensive utility rep

    • by winwar (114053)

      Chris Dixon is lying, an ignoramus, or quite possibly both. Which probably means the taxpayers are screwed.

      I'd also guess that he is an engineer versus a geologist.

      You don't generally remove casings from drilled wells after use, since they have probably been welded together. If it is a monitoring well like this one, you'd leave it in place in case you want to use it again. If you decommission it, you fill it with bentonite clay or cement and cut the top off to prevent groundwater contamination. Of cours

  • Yo dawg, we heard you were digging a pipe, so we put a pipe in your pipe so you can tunnel while you tunnel.
  • You'd think someone would have a metal detector out there, to help find such things. Yeah, I know, too obvious in hindsight from an armchair.

    • Think about how metal detectors work (inductance detection) and the depth of the tunnel, compared to the amount of metal in the surrounding city at a shallower depth, and combined with the materials the boring machine is made of...
      • by drinkypoo (153816)

        Think about making the cutting face a metal detector somehow. What year is it, anyway?

        • Think of what the cutting face is made out of....
          • by drinkypoo (153816)

            Think of what the cutting face is made out of....

            It's got inspection ports. No reason it can't have more of them which some sort of sensor comes out of. Maybe you could just use sonar contact sensors: stop every few feet, extend them, and take a reading. It's better than fucking up the cutting head.

  • Well, that was a boring boring answer.
  • by Anonymous Coward

    However, Chris Dixon, project director for contractor group Seattle Tunnel Partners, said the builders presumed there would be no pipe in the way, because casings are customarily removed after use; adding, "ceci n'est pas une pipe."

  • by Alomex (148003)

    I was sure it was a buried UFO, after all it is the most likely explanation.

  • by Chemisor (97276) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @03:04PM (#45866353)

    Yes, but was it an alien 8" pipe?

    • by wjcofkc (964165)
      I didn't read the summary or the article, but I'm pretty sure that it explicitly stated that yes it is in fact an alien pipe.
    • by Meski (774546)
      The one that the aliens probe you with? Is that length, diameter or circumference?
  • by ZosX (517789)

    I still think it was aliens. They put the pipe there!

  • WW2 bomb blast kills digger driver in Germany: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25594000 [bbc.co.uk]

  • Because the last 14 committees weren't enough.

  • by ChrisMounce (1096567) on Saturday January 04, 2014 @09:54PM (#45868127)

    In 2002, researchers for another project — the replacement of the Alaskan Way viaduct — drilled down into the ground to take water samples.

    The tunnel that Bertha's digging isn't another project — the whole reason for digging the tunnel is to replace the Alaskan Way Viaduct. See here [wa.gov].

    The wells were drilled in 2002 to study the ground after the 2001 Nisqually quake. But that's a related project, because the Nisqually quake is the reason why we got to thinking about a replacement for the Alaskan Way Viaduct.

    Am I making sense? I hope I'm making sense. At any rate, the story summary needs updating.

    • In 2002, researchers for another project — the replacement of the Alaskan Way viaduct — drilled down into the ground to take water samples.

      The tunnel that Bertha's digging isn't another project — the whole reason for digging the tunnel is to replace the Alaskan Way Viaduct. See here [wa.gov].

      The wells were drilled in 2002 to study the ground after the 2001 Nisqually quake. But that's a related project, because the Nisqually quake is the reason why we got to thinking about a replacement for the Alaskan Way Viaduct.

      Am I making sense? I hope I'm making sense. At any rate, the story summary needs updating.

      I came to read the replies to see if I was the only one, nothing information wise but at this moment it's (Jan 5 1:30 am PST, Sunday morning)
      The article claims
      "A buried steel pipe is mostly to blame for stopping the giant tunnel-boring machine Bertha, which has been stuck since Dec. 6 along the Seattle waterfront near South Main Street."

      At first I thought the machine Bertha has sat for a year, looked at the date of the article January 3, 2014 at 1:30 PM...figured If nobody works till Monday, (taking the wee

      • I came to read the replies to see if I was the only one, nothing information wise but at this moment it's (Jan 5 1:30 am PST, Sunday morning)
        The article claims
        "A buried steel pipe is mostly to blame for stopping the giant tunnel-boring machine Bertha, which has been stuck since Dec. 6 along the Seattle waterfront near South Main Street."

        Oh if only there were a delete post option, you can bet it would be used here, Damn if I'm not a month off in my timing. I could blame it on a lot of things
        but it was just a brain fart.

        My apologies

  • ...we are promised things like UFO's, ancient relics, or rare treasure-filled archaeological wrecks, and we get what, a metal pipe? (or so they say)
  • And the documents show that.

    Never assume. It makes an engineering project go belly up.

Those who do things in a noble spirit of self-sacrifice are to be avoided at all costs. -- N. Alexander.

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