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Tech Looks To Obama To Save Them From 'Just Sort of OK' US Workers 441

Posted by Soulskill
from the right-in-the-pride dept.
theodp writes Following up on news that the White House met with big biz on immigration earlier this month, Bloomberg sat down with Joe Green, the head of Mark Zuckerberg's Fwd.US PAC, to discuss possible executive actions President Obama might take on high tech immigration (video) in September. "Hey, Joe," asked interviewer Alix Steel. "All we keep hearing about this earnings season though from big tech is how they're actually cutting jobs. If you look at Microsoft, Cisco, IBM, Hewlett-Packard, why do the tech companies then need more tech visas?" Green explained why tech may not want to settle for laid-off U.S. talent when the world is its oyster. "The difference between someone who's truly great and just sort of okay is really huge," Green said. "Culture in tech is a very meritocratic culture," he added. "The vast, vast majority of tech engineers that I talked to who are from the United States are very supportive of bringing in people from other countries because they want to work with the very best."
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Tech Looks To Obama To Save Them From 'Just Sort of OK' US Workers

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:17AM (#47728921)

    They aren't interested in building up or maintaining US employees; they want to have foreign countries foot the bill for the training of their workers so they can sit around and reap the benefits of advanced training without laying out money to make it happen--and further, they want these employees dependent upon their employment with the company to remain in the country, rather than being able to move about at will.

    Indentured workforce, in other words.

    • by NotDrWho (3543773) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:40AM (#47729199)

      And the best thing about hiring a vIsa worker isn't even the low pay or the way it artificially drives down wages even for your American workers. It's the fact that you can threaten to have them deported if they complain or ask for a raise. They're the perfect indentured serv...oops...I mean "workers."

    • by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 22, 2014 @11:23AM (#47729667)

      Speaking as an H1B worker at one of the major tech companies, I can tell you right now that I'm anything but indentured. If you have {Apple | Facebook | Google | Microsoft} software engineer on your CV, you are not going to have trouble finding a job, willing to offer you another H1B, at the drop of a hat (in fact, you tend to receive dozens of emails from recruiters every single day). There's no issue at all with feeling like you're locked into one company, other than the normal golden handcuffs that large tech companies give you ofc.

  • by pecosdave (536896) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:17AM (#47728925) Homepage Journal

    This isn't a tech report, it's political propaganda. There's plenty of awesome U.S. techs to do the jobs that are out of them, just as good as the imports, they just want U.S. wages.

    • by loonycyborg (1262242) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:29AM (#47729061)
      Beside, best techs from other countries are already in demand at home, no need for them to move. "The best" is not someone US would get from H1B visa program.
      • by mjwalshe (1680392)
        Only up to a point if you have seen some of the stuff that employers get away with in India you would not be surprised they want to run a way - also not having property stolen by AK toting gangsters is a plus as happened to a college of mines family back in India - or if your a Muslim or a low caste person American even on h1b term seems like the promised land
    • by sjbe (173966)

      This isn't a tech report, it's political propaganda. There's plenty of awesome U.S. techs to do the jobs that are out of them, just as good as the imports, they just want U.S. wages.

      That last bit is the flaw in your argument. You mistakenly think there is such a thing as "US wages". The talent pool is global and what matters is your productivity versus your price. If you demand more in wages you had better be significantly more productive and able to prove it. Your economic value to any company is based solely on productivity per dollar spent. If an overseas worker can do the work needed and is willing to do it for less money then you had better find a way to increase your value e

      • That's because corporations are parasites shopping for employees on a global market, but fraction the markets for their own products deliberately to counter precisely the thing they themselves are doing.

  • by The Last Gunslinger (827632) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:18AM (#47728939)
    "The vast, vast majority of tech engineers that I talked to who are from the United States are very supportive of bringing in people from other countries because they want to work with the very best."

    I've worked in tech (SE) for 15+ years now, and I don't know of a single colleague that would agree with the sentiment expressed in that quote.
    • It's not colleagues, duh. It's subordinates.

      You ask them: "Do you want to be fired today for saying no, or fired in 6 months when they let us hire a cheaper replacement for you?"

    • by deKernel (65640)

      Exactly...what a load of crap. It has gotten real hard to find employers that are willing to cultivate people from within these days which is a real shame.

    • It's the bosses and PHB's who have that line.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I've worked in SE for a bit over ten years. The best IT people I have worked with have been from America or Western Europe (England, France, etc.), but I can't say that any country has produced better IT folks than the other.

      Now let's talk about India. India seems to be a popular source for software engineers, testing services, documentation, etc., and I cannot for the life of me understand why. Building anything takes forever; standards are ripped apart and tossed to the wind; things crash, don't log, don'

    • by pla (258480) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:35AM (#47729143) Journal
      I've worked in tech (SE) for 15+ years now, and I don't know of a single colleague that would agree with the sentiment expressed in that quote.

      Ditto, this!

      He clearly means "I have talked with CTOs" and doesn't grasp that that title just means yet-another-stuffed-shirt, not any sort of actual engineer.

      Because, while I have no doubt that good engineers exist outside the US - They don't need to come here to work as indentured servants. Thus we have exactly the wrong sort of selection bias in who applies for H1Bs in the first place.


      "Tech Looks To Obama To Save Them From 'Just Sort of OK' US Workers"? No. Real tech (as opposed to "pointy-haired cat herders") wants Obama to clamp down on importing "Just Sort of OK" foreign workers to displace equally qualified American workers. Simple as that.
    • by digsbo (1292334) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:48AM (#47729279)

      I guess I have karma to burn.

      I have no problem with the many talented Indian and Chinese engineers and programmers I worked with at my last job. Most of them were excellent. That job was a pretty high-tech joint that didn't just employ software people, but also hardware, RF, scientists, etc.

      It was strange when I came to my current job that the Indian programmers applying for jobs here were CLEARLY underskilled hacks, with recruiter-edited false resumes. This place is basically a web shop with a database backed product. Some interesting problems, but nothing like the last one. The guys here couldn't even relate to what I was telling them about the highly talented Indian and Chinese programmers at my last place.

      I was once asked point blank, by a union employee of the public school system, "What do you think of the immigrants coming and taking your jobs and lowering your salary. My honest response was, "Without the kind of talent the people I'm working with bring to this country, my company wouldn't exist."

      I'm not saying there aren't obvious profound flaws with the rest of what the tool in this article is saying, but I will admit that I am perfectly willing to invite top talent to this country if it means businesses operate here. That's hugely different from the 95% of trade school hacks who account for most of the visas, but I'm still happy to welcome those 5% (or 1%, or whatever).

      • It's not karma to burn. You're just talking about a completely different aspect (and I agree there are plenty of good foreign engineering resources to be found).

        I was taking issue with the surreal falsity of the quote...the guy specifically asserted that the "vast, vast majority of tech *engineers* supported..." blahblahblah.

        To me, that's a bald-faced lie. The decision to hire offshore "talent" is driven by MBAs, not MSes or PhDs. Now if he'd said "tech execs" or "CTOs," I would have believed him i
        • by digsbo (1292334)
          Yeah, I have no disagreement with what you say. It feels sometimes like some of these guys WANT low-skill, low-pay workers not only because they're cheap, but because it helps them reinforce their notions of superiority. Or something. Like they get more of a kick out of underpaying for poor quality work that treating someone as a quality employee worth investing in and having a better business for it.
      • "What do you think of the immigrants coming and taking your jobs and lowering your salary. My honest response was, "Without the kind of talent the people I'm working with bring to this country, my company wouldn't exist."

        Wait.... you understand that "most of the visas" are "trade school hacks", "clearly underskilled", with "false resumes". That most of this program is just to undercut the local employees. You are fully cognizant of this.... and when someone asked you what you thought about that... you ignored the question and how themajority of the system operates, and focused on how well the system worked for your company.

        Huh.

        As a tangent, why aren't you working for the high-tech joint anymore? Did they replace you with an

        • by digsbo (1292334) on Friday August 22, 2014 @01:37PM (#47731131)

          "What do you think of the immigrants coming and taking your jobs and lowering your salary. My honest response was, "Without the kind of talent the people I'm working with bring to this country, my company wouldn't exist."

          Wait.... you understand that "most of the visas" are "trade school hacks", "clearly underskilled", with "false resumes". That most of this program is just to undercut the local employees. You are fully cognizant of this.... and when someone asked you what you thought about that... you ignored the question and how themajority of the system operates, and focused on how well the system worked for your company.

          Huh.

          Yeah, you pretty much nailed it, honestly. I've got about 20 years work experience today. At the time I was asked (not quite 10 years ago), I was pretty lucky to have worked at shops where we had mostly good talent, and there really weren't enough trade school hacks for me to recognize the larger pattern.

          As a tangent, why aren't you working for the high-tech joint anymore? Did they replace you with an Indian PHD and force you to move down into the trenches of web-dev? What do you think of that?

          No, while you nailed the first part, you got this 100% wrong. I'm thankful to have worked with the talented people I did, and I left voluntarily. I left because I was moving back to a regulated product from an unregulated one, and I felt my skills withering when I worked on the regulated stuff because 80% or more of my time was in meetings getting documents approved and very little time coding. I am in fact a full-stack web dev now and though I miss working on high tech, I realize that I have broader employability in my geographic region in case my current employment stint doesn't work out. I do miss the awesome test lab and "gee whiz" factor sometimes, but I'm WAYYYY better at actually writing code, because I do it almost all day, almost every day.

      • by StikyPad (445176) on Friday August 22, 2014 @12:36PM (#47730459) Homepage

        Exceptional workers don't need H1Bs. H1Bs are not designed to bring talent to the US; they're (ostensibly) designed to meet a temporary demand that cannot be adequately met by the domestic workforce. That's why they are temporary permits. Talented workers get first priority [state.gov] in immigrating, and I welcome them along with you. I welcome anyone who immigrates here, TBH. More power to them. But that doesn't change the fact that H1Bs are being exploited [fromdev.com], and it's negatively impacting the labor market for citizens as well.

  • by olsmeister (1488789) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:18AM (#47728941)
    Business lobbying for what what will be best for them. News at 11.... Hopefully, voters make this an issue.
    • by bwcbwc (601780)

      One reason I route all email from my company's PAC to my junk folder. Why should I help fund legislation against my own interests as well as those of the country.

      Now if there was a permanent residence visa program, I might go for it. The foreign workers would have more bargaining power over their salaries/benefits and they would be long-term paying payroll taxes and other things that would help the US economy and budget.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Why would they? Most voters have bought hook, line and sinker the demonization of employee rights. Anything that is seen to not benefit the corporations and their profits is "socialism" and must be stopped at all costs.

      Which is amazing because people like Henry Ford realized a century ago that raising pay and benefits made for better employees and ones that were willing and able to buy his company's products. But this attitude is now considered "socialism" and will obviously bankrupt the economy. *rolls eye

  • Translation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Major Blud (789630) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:19AM (#47728949) Homepage

    "The difference between someone who's truly great and just sort of okay is really huge"

    Especially when you want to keep that person tied to the company for the duration of their visa and pay them less than someone with a non-visa.

  • by jtseng (4054) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:21AM (#47728963)

    We're too cheap to hire a less experienced person and train them to do their job properly.

  • Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jandrese (485) <kensama@vt.edu> on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:21AM (#47728965) Homepage Journal
    Of course they want to hire the "very best", where "bestness" is measured by how little money they are willing to work for.

    I don't disagree that there are some really smart people around the world who want to work for Google, but really valuable people don't need special programs to come over to work. The existing system is already set up to admit them. This is a smoke screen to hide the true purpose of the program: finding more people who don't know the value of their skills, preferably ones without many existing relationships that are easier to overwork.
    • Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Informative)

      by netsavior (627338) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:33AM (#47729111)
      When Google offered me a job, I could not believe how little they wanted to pay me. 67% of what I was making at a megabank doing a small amount of very high level innovative stuff, but mostly brain-dead SOAP integrations and listening to conference calls.

      That is why I laugh when I get a recruiter or ex-coworker that tells me I should go work at amazon or yahoo or netflix. The bigger the name, the bigger the h1bribe pool, the lower the salary.
      • Did you include the value of stock and bonuses in what Google offered, when you compared it to your current salary?
      • by sdguero (1112795)
        Two coworkers of mine recently left to work for Google. THey both took a significant pay hit. I visited one while on a bix trip and all he did was bitch about the commute, long hours, low pay, and high rents in the bay area. But he did feel pride in his work like no other job, and said the food was really good as he had put on the typical "freshman fifteen" at the google campus.
    • Of course they want to hire the "very best", where "bestness" is measured by how little money they are willing to work for.

      ALL companies want to hire the maximum performance for the minimum price. What else were you expecting? If someone else can do the job and demands less money to do it why wouldn't the company hire them instead of you? Labor is judged solely on productivity versus price at the end of the day. You can maximize that equation by increasing productivity or decreasing price but either way the question is what will maximize that ratio. Where the workers are from is irrelevant in the equation beyond how it af

  • by i kan reed (749298) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:22AM (#47728975) Homepage Journal

    Let's be honest here: no it isn't.

    Tech skills are hard to objectively verify. Technical results are hard to objectively verify. We collectively proxy that by having lots of tests, competitions, selection, and other heuristics. But that's not a symptom of us respecting skill more than other jobs(maybe more than other specific office jobs, but not more than lawyers, doctors, manufacturing technicians, similar things), it's a symptom of it being really hard to tell.

    These companies are looking to take shortcuts. And some are looking for excuses to cut salaries. That's it.

  • by kheldan (1460303) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:24AM (#47729007) Journal
    Is this article a troll? If it is then I give it 10/10, gr8 b8 m8, and all that shit, because it makes me want to punch someone. In the face. Repeatedly. I've never heard such total bullshit in my entire life. So, what, I'm supposed to sit back and accept an attitude of 'fuck U.S. workers, they all suck, we'll hire from overseas because they're better'? Bull-fucking-shit. Know what I think? I think they like getting anyone they can that will work cheaper, that's what. I work with engineers, I live in the same house as an engineer, and they all tell me how it really is: They'd rather hire younger workers from overseas, regardless of their lack of experience and education, because they can get them dirt cheap, and to hell with quality.
    • by bwcbwc (601780)

      More politely - if these guys spent as much (re)training each US worker as they spend on lawyers, visa fees and other costs related to bringing in the replacements, they wouldn't have a problem.

    • So, what, I'm supposed to sit back and accept an attitude of 'fuck U.S. workers

      I think what all of "just OK" tech workers are going to have to do is form our own companies and route around the big corps. The big guys seem hell bent on taking the path they want to take, and it doesn't include us. The only viable option for the normal people is to form communities and support each other in these communities. Maybe the Republic of Texas whack jobs were on to something...they just went about it the wrong way. M

    • by Lumpy (12016)

      "and to hell with quality"

      This has been the mantra for American Corporations for well over 3 decades now. Look at GM for a perfect example of this.

  • If its anything like the UK, the foreign workers won't all be the very best. I've worked with some top rate foreign workers on visas, but most of them are of an "OK" standard. Almost the same with native British workers, I've worked with some who are the very best, but most are "OK". The one difference is I have seen a couple of really bad native British workers who shouldn't be in the job. I've never seen a foreign worker that bad - presumably they fail to get out of their country.
  • Really? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pslytely psycho (1699190) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:26AM (#47729029) Journal
    "The vast, vast majority of tech engineers that I talked to who are from the United States are very supportive of bringing in people from other countries because they want to work with the very best."

    Show me ONE.

    Just fucking ONE.

    He or she must have a pulse,
    be conscience,
    have an IQ over 30,
    full citizenship,
    NOT A POLITICIAN,
    NOT A CEO,
    NOW SHOW ME ONE.
    • I am an engineer. I appreciate the folks from other countries I work with, who are smart and capable engineers.

      Now, I have no idea why my employer chooses to recruit at certain international engineering schools, nor do I know why they choose to sponsor some people for work VISAs. I interview who I'm told and make no distinction in my recommendations based on their national origin (because I'm a professional, not just because it could be illegal). Those I recommend for hire based on their technical skills

      • No, I, like most here wouldn't have a problem with bringing in truly top notch people. However, it seems that this has been abused to bring in people LESS qualified than the local talent. While at the same time reducing the local workforce in favor of an immigrant force just to enhance their bottom line.

        Great people enhance the environment for all, diversity of ideas and points of view can have a major positive impact.

        Too many though, are using this to take advantage of people who are willing to work for fa
    • by bmajik (96670)

      *raises hand*

      I've posted about this before many times.

      I have a pulse
      I am not sure about having a conscience -- that may disqualify me.
      I have an IQ over 30
      I am a citizen
      I am not a politician
      I am not a CEO.

      I've been an engineer at Microsoft since 2000. I've worked on developer tools and ERP products. I've worked in Redmond; I currently work in Fargo.

      I have interviewed hundreds of people for Microsoft positions. I am not a manager, but I've played manager at times. I understand the compensation system quit

  • as long as there is a high min wage + OT pay for them.

    As some places use them as cheap workers chained to the job.

    also if they want to use them as the best then they should be locked to that job with just about no time to find an other (h1bs have to get out as soon as there job is over) if they get fired or layed off.

  • by ryanmc1 (682957) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:34AM (#47729129) Homepage
    Here is a study that was done a long time ago (1985). Skip down to section 5. It states that the most productive engineers were given 78 sqft of dedicated floor space, thought of there environment as quiet, private, and could silence or divert calls, were not interrupted, and thought they were appreciated. Skill had nothing to do with whether the engineer could finish the project they were assigned. http://teaching.davearnold.ca/... [davearnold.ca]

    Maybe tech companies need to develop culture that encourages good engineers rather than hiring foreign workers.
  • by Opportunist (166417) on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:35AM (#47729147)

    So that means that tech workers from abroad are better than tech workers here? Well, that must then mean that schools abroad are better than schools in the US because, hey, where would they get their knowledge from. And that of course must mean that we'd also find much better managers in India and Pakistan than we can find here, for obviously the same reason.

    I fail to see a lot of H1B visa applications for CEOs, though? I really, really wonder what could possibly be the reason. I'd really want to work for a great CEO for a change, I can tell ya. I mean, when we all want to work with superior colleges, I can only assume that we would all just outright LOVE to work for a superior CEO!

    • by JustNiz (692889) on Friday August 22, 2014 @11:12AM (#47729561)

      >> Well, that must then mean that schools abroad are better than schools in the US

      I am a Brit now living in the US, and have a young son. Honestly my own (fairly average) school education in England makes that provided to him by public schools in the US look _very_ poor and low quality by comparison.

      I'm sure you made your comment with some degree of self-evident sarcasm intended, but based on what I have seen first-hand I'd be very surprised if there actually isn't a lot of truth in it, especially in comparison to many EU countries.

  • Facebook's Wealth Demands Unlimited Slaves

    I bet it was intentional, you know the Zuck loves to mock people right in front of their faces.

  • Response Bias (Score:5, Interesting)

    by meustrus (1588597) <meustrus.gmail@com> on Friday August 22, 2014 @10:48AM (#47729277)

    "The vast, vast majority of tech engineers that I talked to who are from the United States are very supportive of bringing in people from other countries because they want to work with the very best."

    I guarantee you that "the vast, vast majority of tech engineers" would not assume that "other countries" automatically meant "the very best". The general consensus in my neck of the woods is that engineers of foreign origin are about on par with our native engineers. The consensus I've seen in pop culture is that the foreign engineers are generally much worse. I can only imagine the question that would lead to the response above:

    Q: If faced with a choice between a top foreign engineer or a mediocre American one, which would you hire?

    A: The foreign one. I'd want to work with the very best.

  • So why can't *I* do the same thing with a lawyer, notary, accountant? You telling me *there* I have to use a local person? 2+2=4 in China too.

    Oh that's different.

  • As others here have already posted, I call BULLSHIT of this quote by Joe Green. This is nothing more than political propaganda. I worked in the computer industry over 35 years for DEC, EDS, HP, Loral Aerospace, and others. My roles ranged from component repair at customer location (soldering iron & oscilloscope), customer service manager, system engineering project manager, database admin, sales support, system admin, and virtualization work. As also stated by an early poster, I don't know of a singl
  • Anyone who has worked in the IT field long enough knows this truth -- there are rockstar, mediocre and just plain awful tech workers in both the foreign and domestic camps. However, other than people complaining in general about how awful people they have to work with are, I've never heard anyone say anything like "All US engineers/programmers/IT guys are universally bad and so my company should hire foreign workers so I get to work with the best of the best." (I've seen a lot of people who *think* they're

  • ...Like this idea. Let the immigrants come and do the work. Hell they can have the nightmare that has become the technical industry. I quit my job over a year ago, just because of how ridiculous doing work for a technical job has become.

    Inherently built into the supporting factor(s) of the tech industry, is the eventual collapse of workers that want to work. Using the same business practices that are practiced today, the overseas folks that are going to be taking these jobs will eventually need to be
  • by bazmail (764941) on Friday August 22, 2014 @11:05AM (#47729479)
    Most of our foreign (European) contractors are better developers (and all round co-workers) than the home grown US developers, unpopular thing to say but there it is. Add to that they are better educated in general than the US devs and US developers have the highest sense of self-entitlement and things start to look clear. I am a senior sysadmin and I prefer to deal with the foreign devs and select them for projects as they are not obsessed with position and work place politics, they just get it done.
  • by Cajun Hell (725246) on Friday August 22, 2014 @11:06AM (#47729491) Homepage Journal

    The vast, vast majority of tech engineers that I talked to who are from the United States are very supportive of bringing in people from other countries

    That's easy to believe. I feel the same way.

    Yet sometimes I hear people bitching about immigrants in other contexts. If they're agricultural workers instead of tech workers, somehow they're undesirable. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. It makes so little sense to me, that I think it's just plain stupid.

    But that's just, like, my opinion, man. We don't open the borders. Every election we nearly unanimously scream that we want highly restricted immigration consisting of very few people, and the thought of making any moves toward meritocracy makes us so incredibly angry and resentful, that we go out of our minds with blind rage.

    So, tech workers and tech industry customers (i.e. most of America), if this is how you really feel, then you need to live with the consequences. You can't say justice, fairness, and efficiency are important, yet also things you totally don't care about. Make up your fucking mind. If you speak about programmers from India in a fundamentally different way than farmers from Chihuahua, maybe you are the problem, psycho.

  • All they want H1B visa's will be granted, each one hired must be paid at least 50% higher than the national median or local median, whichever is higher, for that job.

    If they REALLY need higher skilled workers, make the fuckers pay for them.

  • by gurps_npc (621217) on Friday August 22, 2014 @11:13AM (#47729573) Homepage
    Look, I've met geniuses before. They are not the key to business success.

    Lots of geniuses FAIL. They fail spectacularly.

    To be truly successful, you need to be a genius and be lucky.

    I don't care how smart you are, you need the luck - if for no other reason than being born in the right country, not having a debilitating disease, and not having family that desperately needs your help. Because sometimes good luck is simply not having bad luck.

    But that's beside the point. Lots of genius just had the wrong timing. There was this guy - a real genius. he came up with a great idea to help kids tie their shoes. But someone else came out with Velcro shoes that year. If he had his idea one year earlier, he would have made a couple of million and the Velcro guy would end up selling the idea to the Kid's Shoe King, instead of becoming the Kid's Shoe King.

    Genius is not that rare, and the difference between the best and the second best guy is for all purposes irrelevant. Other things matter more than creativity and intelligence.

    Timing, luck, and hard work matter just as much as genius.

  • Scum of the earth (Score:4, Insightful)

    by 0xdeadbeef (28836) on Friday August 22, 2014 @11:27AM (#47729723) Homepage Journal

    The vast, vast majority of tech engineers that I talked to who are from the United States are very supportive of bringing in people from other countries because they want to work with the very best."

    He's right, I have said that. Of course, I always follow it with "but only if they have unrestricted visas that give them the same freedom I have to shop the market and work for whomever they want", and I suspect everyone he's talked to (presuming he isn't making it up) have said something similar.

    Because when the best of the best make $200k a year, it kicks the wind of out the whiners who complain about the the average programmer salary. But when they work for $80k and they can't switch jobs, that depresses my salary, and that is precisely why lying fuckwits like Joe Green and Mark Zuckerberg want to bring them here.

  • "We want A workers at C prices."

  • "The vast, vast majority of tech engineers that I talked to who are from the United States are very supportive of bringing in people from other countries because they want to work with the very best."

    Ah, so any American engineer who disagrees with you obviously doesn't want to work with the very best, and since most of them are going to disagree with you, they prove your point that they're all mediocre.

  • "The vast, vast majority of tech engineers that I talked to who are from the United States are very supportive of bringing in people from other countries because they want to work with the very best." Replace tech engineers with chemists or biochemists and that is absolutely not true.
  • by wonderboss (952111) on Friday August 22, 2014 @01:22PM (#47730953)

    As a manager at a company that does to hire the best and the brightest, I can say that people calling for more H1-B visas are full of s#!t.

    The biggest users of H-1Bs are consulting companies, or as Ron Hira calls them, "offshore-outsourcing firms."

    "The top 10 recipients in [the] last fiscal year were all offshore-outsourcers. And they got 40,000 of the 85,000 visas — which is astonishing," he says.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/allte... [npr.org]

    Here is the break-down of my reports.
    15 - born in the USA.
    3- naturalized citizens when I hired them.
    2- from Egypt on L1 visas (we have an office in Cairo)
    2- from Korea that had green cards when I hired them
    1- from China that was a grad student that we supported. F1 students visa changed to H1B by obtaining a sponsorship position with an H1B sponsor company.
    1- from India that was a grad student we supported. F1 students visa changed to H1B by obtaining a sponsorship position with an H1B sponsor company.

    It is fairly easy to convert F1 visa for a student that has completed graduate school in the USA to an H1B, and as far as I can tell there is no limit.
    (I am not an immigration lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.)

    If tried to hire highly qualified individuals from outside the US and was told that I would not be able to get them H1B visas because they were all taken (by the body shoppers). These people had PhDs from prestigious Universities and years of relevant experience. They made the unfortunate mistake of not attending a US
    graduate school.

    So the solution is quite simple. Stop giving H1B visas to "consulting companies".

If it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money.

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