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The Military

Russian Military Forces Have Now Invaded Ukraine 848

Posted by timothy
from the or-maybe-it's-a-1000-person-picnic dept.
SpzToid (869795) writes Those plucky "Ukrainian separatist's" ambition to join Russia have now been given Russian military support, as the Russian Army with long columns of armor have invaded Ukraine and have opened up a second warring front, in a big way. The Reuters report, interestingly, quotes a member of Putin's own advisory council on human rights describing the move as an invasion: "When masses of people, under commanders' orders, on tanks, APCs and with the use of heavy weapons, (are) on the territory of another country, cross the border, I consider this an invasion."
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Russian Military Forces Have Now Invaded Ukraine

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  • lulz (Score:5, Funny)

    by NoImNotNineVolt (832851) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:21AM (#47775177) Homepage
    In Soviet Russia, border crosses troops [duffelblog.com]!
    • Re:lulz (Score:5, Insightful)

      by aralin (107264) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @04:06PM (#47778897)

      It is interesting that everybody just repeats this. The source of the "confirmation" is Ella Polyakova, which is a chairman of organization Soldier's Mothers and opposition politician. She has an advisory role on human rights. This is a person with an axe to grind at the very least. It is hard to take her as some official spokesman of the Russian government and definitely not someone in-the-know about the situation. All the articles make her seem like some member of Putin's inner circle of advisors.

      The amount of disinformation that is coming from Russia, but also Ukraine and the NATO command is vast and it is very hard to sift through it to get to the truth. Very likely Russian troops are somehow involved in the conflict, but trust me that if Russia started an invasion of Ukraine, they could take Kiev the next day. So Occam's razor applied, this is not an invasion.

      • Re:lulz (Score:5, Insightful)

        by flyingsquid (813711) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @04:55PM (#47779335)

        Very likely Russian troops are somehow involved in the conflict

        Given that Ukraine actually captured a group of Russian paratroopers, showed them on TV, and the Russians admitted they were in fact Russian troops, yes, I kind of think there are Russian troops in the Ukraine.

        • Re:lulz (Score:5, Interesting)

          by aralin (107264) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @05:23PM (#47779631)

          There are also Ukrainian troops in Russia. In far bigger numbers as well. Last time there were 400 soldiers who strayed to Russia, now there is a report of about 1000 soldiers encircled by the separatists that might be seeking refuge in Russia after being abandoned by their commanders. It is not as simple as some news outlets let you believe. Most of the headlines are sensationalist anyway, that's how you sell newspaper. There is also 300 US active military "advisors" embedded with the Ukrainian military, helping with tactics, logistics and strategy. But I don't see you being upset over that.

          I am mostly upset that nobody is talking, they could have had a week long cease fire couple months ago to at least talk through what each side wants, but Ukraine pushes for a complete victory in the east. Maybe that is a good strategy, maybe not, but US is the only one benefiting right now. Ukraine, EU and Russia are all losers in this conflict. And I am also upset with the rhetoric of people that drive us into a military conflict with Russia. It is almost as if everyone forgot the 2000 nuclear warheads aimed at pretty much the entire world. But let's say they won't use them. Won't they maybe sell them? Or sell the technology to make them? What is their incentive not to?

          • Re:lulz (Score:5, Insightful)

            by drolli (522659) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @05:40PM (#47779759) Journal

            I worked with Ukrainians, and i worked with Russian, and we worked all together. Most of the normal people on both sides have no problem friends to each other, or being married with each other.

            I am deeply worried about some polititians (on both sides) being more conderned about economics than about saving the lives of many civilians, and soldiers. Russia could have stopped a long time destabilizing the region, and the West made some big mistakes about 9 months ago in not giving Russia guarantees for their safety and constructive influence, and instead of insiting in finally "winning" the cold war.

      • Re:lulz (Score:4, Interesting)

        by werepants (1912634) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @05:10PM (#47779473)

        The amount of disinformation that is coming from Russia, but also Ukraine and the NATO command is vast and it is very hard to sift through it to get to the truth. Very likely Russian troops are somehow involved in the conflict, but trust me that if Russia started an invasion of Ukraine, they could take Kiev the next day. So Occam's razor applied, this is not an invasion.

        if Russia started an invasion of Ukraine, and wanted to provoke immediate international retaliation they could take Kiev the next day. FTFY.

  • by Scottingham (2036128) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:21AM (#47775179)
    With hastily spray-painted Ukrainian flags!
    • by LordLimecat (1103839) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:34AM (#47775367)

      Im not 100% clear why we wouldnt want to get involved here, if ever there were a time to get involved.

      Ukraine disarmed itself in 2006 at our urging, with the understanding that we would come to their aid if ever it were needed. At the same time, having a superpower like Russia going into full imperialism mode is good for noone but Russia. A tepid response like the one theyve been given will only encourage further aggression.

      • We shouldn't...just our drones :-p
        • by flyingsquid (813711) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @05:46PM (#47779807)
          There is a saying, attributed to Napoleon, 'never get in the way of your enemy when he is in the process of destroying himself'. Putin may score points at home by annexing the Crimea and invading Ukraine. Internationally, however, Russia moving towards becoming a pariah state, like Iran, North Korea, or Libya under Qaddafi. He's invaded and annexed part of his neighbor, shot down a civilian airliner, imprisoned political opponents, clamped down on free speech and murdered journalists, criminalized having a different sexual orientation. If the long-term goal is to politically isolate Russia, to help contain Russian influence like during the Cold War, well, Putin is doing a fantastic job of it.

          War has been called "politics by other means". Putin has launched this war because he is desperate not to let the Ukraine fall into the Western political sphere- probably the best analogy would be the way the U.S. got defensive about having communist governments in Cuba and Central America. At best, he'll manage to carve off the eastern edge of Ukraine to create some tiny, pro-Russian buffer states. In the process of gaining this territory, Russia will isolate itself and its political sphere of influence will shrink. Putin will never give up power, and the West will never trust him again, so we could be looking at another 10-25 years of this sort of behavior, before eventually someone succeeds him and tries to normalize relations with the West.

          • by unixisc (2429386) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @08:26PM (#47780943)

            Putin may score points at home by annexing the Crimea and invading Ukraine. Internationally, however, Russia moving towards becoming a pariah state, like Iran, North Korea, or Libya under Qaddafi.

            Maybe, but Russia would be the world's largest 'pariah' state - too big to ignore. People will acquiesce, just like they did the Chinese conquest of Tibet. Not just that, there are major countries in Russia's corner, including China and India. If Russia has those 2 trading partners, what else do they need?

          • by anyGould (1295481) on Friday August 29, 2014 @12:16PM (#47785575)

            A slightly more cynical view:

            Putin is going to grab Ukraine (or as much as he can), because he's willing to put boots on the ground and the Western World isn't. He's correctly surmised that the West has overextended itself a wee bit (both in terms of materials and willpower and moral authority). After all, he's "liberating", ain't he? Isn't that what the US did in Iraq? And Afghanistan? He's even invited by the locals!

            Ukraine likely doesn't have the forces to stop them (if they did, they woulda kept them out of Crimea). The western world doesn't care enough to put skin in the game. As long as he doesn't heat the water too fast, I'd bet on Putin getting his Ukrainian lobster dinner.

      • by Opportunist (166417) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:41AM (#47775469)

        I don't know how Russia, you know, the big one, reacts if the US decided to support (and possibly occup... I mean liberate) a country right at its border.

        I mean, how'd you feel if Russia took over Mexico?

        I'd be quite careful how to react to that. Putin doesn't have as much leeway to do what he pleases as it seems. Russia likes big, strong, tough men at the top. Men who give in have a pretty hard time to remain in power.

        • by pla (258480) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:56AM (#47775671) Journal
          I mean, how'd you feel if Russia took over Mexico?

          About the same way we'd feel when they tried to put nukes in Cuba?

          But at least that one went well...
          • by stoploss (2842505) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @12:05PM (#47775807)

            I mean, how'd you feel if Russia took over Mexico?

            About the same way we'd feel when they tried to put nukes in Cuba?

            But at least that one went well...

            Right. In that case they were simply reacting to our aggressive positioning of Jupiter missiles in Turkey. We offered to remove those if they pulled back from Cuba. Balance of MAD restored.

            What's the quid pro quo play here?

            • by Matheus (586080) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @12:47PM (#47776529) Homepage

              How 'bout we just let them have Mexico if they give up on Ukraine? ;-)

            • by superwiz (655733) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @01:03PM (#47776787) Journal
              None. Russia will continue its aggression until the first nuclear exchange. No one thinks this is for real. And no one will until it gets real.
        • by neoritter (3021561) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:59AM (#47775729)

          What a skewed analogy. I think you mean, how would we feel if Russia came to the aid of Mexico at their request after we were sending troops to support rebel secessionists?

          Seriously get bent.

        • This isnt difficult. Ask Kiev if they would like 1000 US troops to assist at a military base near the fighting. What, do you suppose, would happen if Russia then attacked an area where American troops were?

          You know how you deal with a playground bully? You stand up to his crap, get people behind you, and call his bluff.

          • by gstoddart (321705) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @12:38PM (#47776333) Homepage

            You know how you deal with a playground bully? You stand up to his crap, get people behind you, and call his bluff.

            Which works really well right up until you discover the schoolyard bully is a little unhinged, and is playing out of his own book because he believes his own story.

            And then you discover it's not a bluff, and then things get really hairy.

            Chairman Mao, Ho Chi Minh and Hitler, not so much with the bluffing.

            And I'm not so sure about Putin either.

            • by times05 (1683662) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @01:01PM (#47776765)

              So USA isn't a bully? You do realize US started the whole deal in Ukraine right?

              I'm asking you this as a US citizen for 15 years, who has lived in US for 20 years, served in US army for 7.5 years, will almost certainly live out the rest of my life here (as in very much invested in US and its future), but I was born and grew up until 13 in Ukraine. Thing is I damn well want the best for United States and Ukraine. At the same time I realize very well who started this conflict, and know that Ukraine will be much better off with Russia. Putin is doing everything 100% right (this article about invasion is total BS by the way). He is staying out of direct conflict, while supporting the rebels. US has done this countless times, difference is there is an overwhelming support for Putin in Ukraine (most Ukrainians are literally Russians in every way that matters), so he will succeed. Country will split in half, more likely majority of it will be Russian. The rest will join EU and will unfortunately suffer as EU is in a really bad position themselves and can't afford to help.

              You don't hear these things because US/EU/Kiev controlled press suppresses a lot of information, and Kiev government is suppressing the people (election were completely bogus). People that voice disagreement against Ukrainian government are thrown in jail, beaten, sometimes burned alive, forced to go to front lines to die without support. Maidan 3.0 is beginning.

              I have a lot of relatives and friends in Ukraine. I read news from all sides. I understand the bond between Russians and Ukrainians, there simply is nothing like that in America. It's a hell of a lot closer than US and Britan/Canada/Australia, but you don't have any idea what that's like. You also don't know what it's like to have your countrymen carrying portraits and flags of someone who greeted Nazi's as friends. Might want to look up Lviv Pogrom 1941 where the people you support killed 4,000 jews in one day to celebrate Hitler. They did way more than that later. I also know very well how Americans view anything outside of their own city/state, I served with them, I was one of them in Iraq for 3 combat tours 1 year each.

              • by Coffee Warlord (266564) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @03:32PM (#47778515)

                And on the flipside, my neighbor is Ukrainian. Ukrainian Independence Day was this past weekend, and they invited me over for a few drinks. (Which, as a side, do not drink with Ukrainians on Ukrainian Independence Day if you like a functional liver). None of them speak English terribly well, but they made it abundantly clear it's bad over there right now. They've still got family & friends there, and they're naturally worried.

                Several shots later, they taught me the phrases, "Fuck Putin" and "Fuck Russia" in Ukrainian. Fans of Russia, they are not.

      • by bobbied (2522392) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:42AM (#47775485)

        It is the tepid response given to atrocities elsewhere that has sent the message that Putin can do this with impunity. He knows he can get away with this and only risk getting Russian assets frozen world wide. That might tick off the rich guys some, but Putin isn't really elected by them anyway.

      • by SpankiMonki (3493987) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @12:05PM (#47775813)

        Ukraine disarmed itself in 2006 at our urging, with the understanding that we would come to their aid if ever it were needed.

        The only "aid" that the US is obligated to provide Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances [wikisource.org] is to seek UN Security Council action in the event that Ukraine is attacked (or threatened) with nuclear weapons.

        The agreement is a one page document written in plain language. It's hard to imagine anyone who's read it would interpret it as you do.

        • by PraiseBob (1923958) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @12:36PM (#47776311)
          Would Russia invade if Ukraine still had their nukes? Will any other nuclear country disarm in the future given this scenario?
          In the end, a treaty is just words on paper. Russia clearly isn't honoring the treaty so it goes to line 6:

          "The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments."
      • by catchblue22 (1004569) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @01:39PM (#47777289) Homepage

        Im not 100% clear why we wouldnt want to get involved here, if ever there were a time to get involved.

        Ukraine disarmed itself in 2006 at our urging, with the understanding that we would come to their aid if ever it were needed. At the same time, having a superpower like Russia going into full imperialism mode is good for noone but Russia. A tepid response like the one theyve been given will only encourage further aggression.

        Assuming that you are implying American boots/bombs on the ground in the Ukraine, are you crazy? I mean seriously. Are you? There is in my opinion a dangerous detachment from reality in some circles of American political discussion about confronting Russia. Perhaps you may feel my language is inflamatory. But I get kind of disturbed when so many people, including those in power, put forward actions which would likely lead to thermonuclear war.

        Looking back at history, there has never been a shooting war between the Soviet Union and the US. Never. The Cold War? It was always fought between proxies of the great powers. We would sell arms to pro-US or anti-Soviet interests (like in 1980's Afghanistan), or we would directly confront pro-Soviet interests (like in Vietnam). We came close to a shooting war with the Soviets more than once (the Bay of Pigs in Cuba). But such a war never happened, because those in power knew that such a war would inevitably decay into a thermonuclear war that would likely end western civilization with the press of a button.

        The proper response to this is to strengthen military forces in new NATO member states surrounding Russia, including US boots on the ground. This will make a clear line that Russia knows it cannot cross without provoking all-out war. Unfortunately Ukraine is not part of NATO. We might be able to sell arms to Ukraine, but there are risks and limitations to this. What must be made clear to Russia is that if it enters Ukraine, it will face profound economic isolation. If it goes further it must be clear that it will result in WWIII. Thus we end in a stalemate. Not unlike the Cold War.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:24AM (#47775223)

    Unfortunately for those living there a lack of control of Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia, and it always has been. This is Putin and his faction basically saying "Bring it Europe/US. What are you going to do?" They're gambling that Ukrainian sovereignty is less important to the US and Europe than getting in a shooting war with Russia, and quite frankly they're probably right.

    • by sycodon (149926) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:40AM (#47775453)

      Obama will be breaking out his Red pen anytime now...Red Line imminent!

        His phone is on standby too!

      • by xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:57AM (#47775677)

        >> Obama will be breaking out his Red pen anytime now

        I'd love to see the transcript of their next call.
        Obama: "Putin, but why?"
        Putin: "Because fuck you, that's why."

        But I won't, so I'll have to comfort myself with some classic Clinton triangulation, probably coming out on Friday.
        H.Clinton: "I knew Romney was right about Russia, but it wasn't my place to defy my President as Secretary of State."

  • by SpzToid (869795) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:27AM (#47775265)

    Wasn't it a wonderful, peaceful time, so long ago? Ah, those were the days.

  • by Daetrin (576516) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:28AM (#47775285)
    http://www.vox.com/2014/8/27/6... [vox.com]

    As someone else put it, Putin is aspiring to be a Dune character. Or more prosaically, he's learned a lot from watching US corporations and the US government manipulate the news cycle. Do something that will outrage the public, wait for the new furor, pull back a little, wait for the news to move on to some other subject, and try again.
  • by penguinoid (724646) <spambait001@yahoo.com> on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:41AM (#47775465) Homepage Journal

    This is something we saw coming, at least since the incident with Crimea. What plans were made for this? Or are they all pretending to be surprised?

    • by Rich0 (548339)

      This is something we saw coming, at least since the incident with Crimea. What plans were made for this? Or are they all pretending to be surprised?

      I'm sure everybody has both made plans and is pretending to be surprised. That's just politics. Nobody says what they really think.

      Does Germany want Russia invading the Ukraine? I'm sure the answer is no. If push comes to shove are they going to put principle above gas prices? Probably not, but we'll see. The downing of the airliner was taken seriously because so many of the dead were EU citizens, but even then it was just sanctions.

      I'm not entirely convinced the US/EU would commit to warfare if Russi

  • WMDs! (Score:4, Funny)

    by skaralic (676433) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:44AM (#47775521)
    Finally they will be able to find those WMDs that the Ukranians are hiding!
  • by schwit1 (797399) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:44AM (#47775527)

    Appeasement only makes the aggressor more aggressive.

    • Don't be absurd. Unlike Ukraine, the Baltics are NATO and EU countries with stable governments. If Russia invaded, nukes would fly and both sides know it. It's not even a feasible scenario to speculate over.
  • Inevitable (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hsthompson69 (1674722) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @11:53AM (#47775649)

    Once you appear weak, and unwilling to stand for your "red lines", your competition simply won't take you seriously anymore.

    Nothing Obama (or the international community for that matter) is willing to do will aver Russia from its course. At this point, the questions to be settled will be around just how much of Ukraine manages to stay independent at all.

    While people may have been all pissy about Bush, unilateral wars, and Team America World Police, the fact of the matter is that it was better than the alternative. "America, Fuck Yeah" sure looks better than "America, Fuck No" at this point.

  • History of Ukrain (Score:4, Informative)

    by Charliemopps (1157495) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @12:55PM (#47776659)

    Recent Ukrainian events summed up for those that care:

    1954 Crimea was given as a "Gift" to Ukraine by Russia/USSR and Nikita Khrushchev (an ethnic Ukrainian) as a symbolic gesture commemorating the 300th anniversary of Crimea becoming part of the Russian empire.
    1991 Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for independence from Russia
    1994 Ukraine signed a treaty with Russia and the USA to disarm its nuclear arsenal in return for a treaty that guaranteed Russia and USA would come to their aid if they were ever invaded.
    2010 Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych was elected president. He had been a minister of an eastern Ukrainian province. The US and Europe had supported his opponent, and Russia had supported him. Likely both sides illegally influenced the election with money and espionage. In the following years, there is little doubt he ran the country in the ground, he was a terrible president.
    2014 The Ukrainian parliament voted overwhelmingly to remove him from the presidential office. A poll in April showed his approval rating at 5% This event was likely assisted by the US and Europe and was basically a Coup de'etat. Russia freaked out and had Russian agents already in place in Ukraine start stiring up violent unrest. They've basically been in a state of civil war since. Russia is providing troops and hardware, the west seem a little more reluctant to provide direct support.

    Russias primary goals are to keep the strategic port in the black sea open and prevent Ukraine from joining the EU.

  • by Mysticalfruit (533341) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @01:39PM (#47777295) Homepage Journal
    Don't forget that before this whole mess, the Ukrainian president was going to the EU hat in hand asking for 15 Billion Euros to pay off debts paid to Russia and to fix its infrastructure. Speaking of which, their infrastructure is in complete shambles. When Russia first took Crimea a couple days later the Russian minister of fiance was bitching about how much is was going to cost to fix Crimea (something like 15 Billion over 3 years).

    So by all means, if Russia wants to take over Ukraine an incur the expense of actually fixing Ukraine... excellent, I suspect very quickly the whole thing will be a pyrrhic victory.

    Also, while they're expending their military forces trying to keep the Ukrainians from engaging in an insurgency against them, we're going to keep putting the screws to them on the global market, causing their currency to go into an inflationary spiral.

    As of right now, the Europeans have been hesitant about criticizing Russia too heavy because of fears about their gas supply. However, I can't imagine the Europeans will say nothing if Russia rolls in the tanks. Possibly we'll start shipping NG to the Europeans to further undercut the Russians? Who knows.

    However, now that Russia has banned food imports from the EU and the US. How long before the standard of living starts spiraling downwards? I don't imagine that Putin would starve his own people, but who knows?
  • by david.emery (127135) on Thursday August 28, 2014 @01:54PM (#47777445)

    Hurghada - odprawa paszportowa:
    -Nationality?
    --Russian
    -Occupation?
    --No, just visiting.

    (from a friend in Poland.)

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