Mozilla CEO: Windows 10 Strips User Choice For Browsers and Other Software 371
puddingebola writes: Mozilla CEO Chris Beard has sent an open letter to Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella complaining about the default settings in Windows 10. Users who upgrade to 10 will have their default browser automatically changed to the new Edge browser. Beard said, "We appreciate that it’s still technically possible to preserve people’s previous settings and defaults, but the design of the whole upgrade experience and the default settings APIs have been changed to make this less obvious and more difficult. It now takes more than twice the number of mouse clicks, scrolling through content and some technical sophistication for people to reassert the choices they had previously made in earlier versions of Windows. It’s confusing, hard to navigate and easy to get lost. ... We strongly urge you to reconsider your business tactic here and again respect people’s right to choice and control of their online experience by making it easier, more obvious and intuitive for people to maintain the choices they have already made through the upgrade experience.
If you think Windows is bad (Score:5, Interesting)
Try using a non-Safari-based browser in iOS
Re:If you think Windows is bad (Score:4, Insightful)
Or try using a non-Firefox browser with the Firefox OS.
Or try using a non-Chrome browser with the Chrome OS.
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Pretty much this. GP forgot that mobile !=desktop, and Firefox/Mozilla was complaining about the desktop restrictions.
Re:If you think Windows is bad (Score:5, Informative)
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He meant 'case in point', a common expression.
Re:If you think Windows is bad (Score:5, Funny)
So supposably, for all intensive purposes, he meant "case in point", right?
Here, here.
Re:If you think Windows is bad (Score:5, Interesting)
Its almost like... in those cases the OS is a specially crafted web browsing tool instead of a GENERAL PURPOSE operating system.
Nobody's assuming that a phone / tablet / netbook have unlimited control (though it is nice when given), but for a general purpose OS, you expect fluidity. I guess some of the big shifts in Windows since 8 (maybe earlier, but in much smaller doses) has been their ham-strung proprietary and irreplacible components that lock down more and more of the OS. This may well be my last Windows if Linux Gaming becomes more of a thing. If the last couple years' growth has been any indication, it looks like a real possibility now.
Not lock down, "cash in!" (Score:3)
I remember reading an article several years ago which covered some internal leaked MS memos. In essence it said that MS was going to monetize every component of an OS, including hardware access. Have a high end graphics card? Want graphics acceleration in a game? Pay the subscription rate for DirectX. Want an update, pay the subscription rate for the portion of the OS you want to update. Have 2x8 core CPUs and want to use them? That is an extra fee. Have memory you want to use? Past a certain point
Microsoft against the common good. (Score:3)
"The Halloween documents comprise a series of confidential Microsoft memoranda against open-source software". [wikipedia.org]
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Garbage as in Microsoft? You surely can't be claiming that internal leaks are garbage, especially since they have already started their attempt to "cash in" on some of what those memos discussed.
You also can't be claiming that history is garbage. MS was found to treadmill from Win3.11-98B, that is factual. Applications like Netscape and Bordland Compilers received scarce resources and would randomly be crashed by the Kernel. Binaries with a Microsoft copyright header received favorable resource allocati
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Nobody's assuming that a phone / tablet / netbook have unlimited control (though it is nice when given) ...
Like hell I am not. I expect full control of a tablet and a netbook. What is up with you people relinquishing control???
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Or try using a non-Firefox browser with the Firefox OS.
Or try using a non-Chrome browser with the Chrome OS.
Point of clarification. 99.999% of Chrome/Firefox OS users voluntarily chose that OS to get the fuck away from IE/Microsoft and prefer the browser that comes with it.
I thought that was rather obvious to most.
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> Not at all. iOS is UNIX.
I love UNIX. I hate iOS. What were you saying again?
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Sorry but UNIX with all caps is the trademark, while many non-certified systems are Unix. For example OpenBSD and DragonFly are BSD Unix (and many would argue of higher quality and security than the certified UNIX(tm) systems)
Re: If you think Windows is bad (Score:2)
You really think the trademark only covers UNIX and that a none certified version can call itself "Unix" without getting sued?
Open BSD on their home page don't describe Open BSD as Unix. They describe it as "Unix Like".
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Huh? Running Chrome works on iOS 6.1.2 -- sure it will crash but that is due to running 50+ tabs.
I've had Safari crash too.
Both problems are related to low memory conditions.
Re:If you think Windows is bad (Score:4, Insightful)
It's the javascript engine that's the problem, not the rest of it. Opera on iOS, for example does not use WebKit, or at least it doesn't in turbo mode. They do the javascript execution on the server side and feed you the results. The downside is lower compatibility, the upside is it can be MUCH faster when you're on a really slow or shoddy connection.
Re:If you think Windows is bad (Score:5, Informative)
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It was those fat French* who demanded that Microsoft deliver an OS without a web browser at all, wasn't it?
* I'll assume Gerard Depardieu represents all French people, just like McDonalds represents all American cuisine and heavy drinking represents all Irish.
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Depardieu is Russian now, so you are barking up the wrong tree.
Re:If you think Windows is bad (Score:4, Informative)
funny, plenty of those 'fat americans' use that linux distro known as "Android" without problem
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Android is to Linux what OS X is to BSD.
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Nope, in fact it is the opposite situation. OS X has the BSD userland
But a Linux distro only need have the Linux kernel, period
Android is a Linux, deal with it
Re:If you think Windows is bad (Score:5, Insightful)
Despite it being very easy, not every person who owns a car knows how to change the oil, change a tire, or replace brake pads. Not every computer user knows how computers work, and I would suspect that many people who drive cars consider internal combustion to be a black box process.
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IE all over again (Score:2, Insightful)
So basically they're doing the same thing with Windows 10 as they did originally with IE? Making it part of the OS and claiming it can't be removed?
Sorry, Microsoft ... but everything I hear about Windows 10 is making me say "fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1".
When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers, and they simply can't dictate to us what software is on our computers and how we use it.
And, like every other Microsoft produc
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Re:IE all over again (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:IE all over again (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm pretty sure this was arrogance, but not malice, on MS's part: they really want to shift the IE userbase to Edge and drop IE support in some future release. Can you blame them? But in their arrogance they didn't remember (or didn't care) that quite a large portion of Windows users don't run IE in the first place.
Re:IE all over again (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's the problem - Firefox/Chrome/etc ask you if you want them to be the default browser. The ability for the program to set the preference is the problem.
If you don't see the problem, let me rephrase it. I create SuperWebBrowser. I think it's so super, I will make it the default browser on everyone's machine. So I do that. Why should I ask the user? It's so super they'll want it.
If you still don't get it, then how about, I create WebBrowserSpy and set it as default. It launches an instance of your normal web browser but hooked so it can spy at your traffic and even get at HTTPS data after it's been decrypted.
Just because the good guys ask, doesn't mean everyone else has to. In fact, if you're particularly nasty, if that setting is changed, you can always reset it back.
And you'll be surprised, but both scenarios are common - many management types can't understand that people might just want to use your software as necessary, and they don't need or want it to be the default shell, the default web browser, to pin itself to the task bar and start menu and all sorts of other things. After all, after buying a copy of SuperApplication, why wouldn't you want it in your face everywhere you look? I mean, it's a great application.
It's why Microsoft doesn't provide APIs to pin applications to the task bar, start menu and a few other things. Heck, I'm surprised no installer decides to go change your desktop wallpaper on you after you install an app. After all, it's super, and you'll not want to live without it...
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My personal issue with all this is that when you upgrade a machine to Windows 10, it resets the default browser to Microsoft Edge instead of migrating the existing setting from the old OS. It migrates tons of other settings, so there is no technical reason they could
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The problem is that too much shitware was changing the browser defaults out from under users. You'd install some piece of crapware and they'd hide a checkbox telling you it was bundled with Chrome or Mozilla or whatever and you'd end up with a new browser you didn't want.
So to stop that, now only the user can change the default browser. Mozilla shouldn't be blaming Microsoft for improving the user experience, they should be blaming the assholes they allowed to bundle Mozilla for money.
While that in itself may be commendable (I've fixed hijacked computers before, it's a pain) that still doesn't excuse MS for changing the already set preferences of the user during the upgrade. It should very simple for the upgrade to leave that registry key essentially untouched, or export/import it as needed.
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"fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1". ----- giahwaaaht?
I like MS but not their new stuff? I brain froze on the rest of what you had to say...
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Sorry, Microsoft ... but everything I hear about Windows 10 is making me say "fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1".
That should be "I'll stick with my Windows 7", just like "I'll stick with my Windows XP".
Saying, "I'll stick with my Windows 8.1" is like saying, "I'll stick with my Windows Vista".
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So basically they're doing the same thing with Windows 10 as they did originally with IE?
No, basically Mozilla is bitching that Windows 10 has default settings, and people might not change it to the ones they want.
When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers, and they simply can't dictate to us what software is on our computers and how we use it.
Nothing is stopping you from setting any browser you want as a default, or installing any legitimate software you want. Hopefully something is stopping illegitimate software from being installed without your permission though.
You might even find the DoJ knocking at your door if they ever grow a pair and stop doing whatever industry demands of them.
If the DOJ is going to go after criminals in industry, there are a lot better choices than this phantom hysterical one.
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>> So basically they're doing the same thing with Windows 10 as they did originally with IE?
> No, basically Mozilla is bitching that Windows 10 has default settings, and people might not change it to the ones they want.
No, Mozilla is complaining that if you have already changed your defaults, when you upgrade to Windows 10, it changes those defaults back.
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...Keep alienating your customers, see how that works out for you....
A good case study in that area might be Mozilla and Firefox.
Re:IE all over again (Score:5, Informative)
When I upgraded to Windows 10 yesterday, there was a screen that came up that asked me if I wanted to reset the default apps. I said no for my browser and media player, and when it completed, Chrome and VLC were still the default applications. I think it's a little underhanded, but not as underhanded as the article suggests.
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When I upgraded to Windows 10 yesterday, there was a screen that came up that asked me if I wanted to reset the default apps. I said no for my browser and media player, and when it completed, Chrome and VLC were still the default applications. I think it's a little underhanded, but not as underhanded as the article suggests.
Mozilla is whining anyway; when they switched search providers from Google to Yahoo I had to go through and specify it on EVERY INSTANCE of Firefox I have. Since I use --no-remote and segment my web browsing this was actually a royal pain in the ass. Granted, Google was the old "default," so I had never changed it, but it was still an undesired change in behavior. If they're going to whine about Microsoft doing the same thing then they ought to look at their own behavior.
Firefox is still my browser of c
Re:IE all over again (Score:4, Insightful)
I actually really like the way they implemented it in Window 10. As far as I can tell, It's no longer possible for the browser to change the default browser for you. They can bring up the screen to change the option, but the user has to change the option themselves. This is much better than the old functionality where applications would constantly be setting themselves as the default application either with no warning or with a simple yes/no dialog. Making it take more clicks is a good thing.
Re:IE all over again (Score:4, Informative)
Yeah, I agree. I think this issue is a little overrated.
When I installed FF on Windows 10, it was slightly more difficult to make it my default browser, in that I had to click maybe 3 times instead of only 1 or 2 times as I would have on Windows 7.
The way it looks to me, MS is trying to make it harder for hijackers to silently take your defaults.
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Whatever MS's justification, they do actually ask you if you want to change your current apps for certain functions during the final stage of the upgrade phase. What I don't like is that it is essentially an "opt-out" rather than an "opt-in".
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Every browser install is set up this way, at least from what I have seen.
Re:IE all over again (Score:5, Insightful)
Launching another browser presents the usual "do you want me to be default" dialog. It's completely trivial to change your browser preference. Yes, I would have preferred if Microsoft had left my browser preferences alone with the upgrade, but this is blown a bit out of proportion.
It's also a bit disingenuous to compare today's situation to the Internet Explorer case that's literally 20 years old. I find it improbable to believe that anyone using Windows 10 is unaware of alternative browsers availability.
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However I have seen that Microsoft do some strange stuff in some cases when downloading files using the browser from another application. Only way to make it work is to set IE as default browser. I have seen this when using Visual Studio trying to download an update to Visual Studio won't work until browser is set as IE default.
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Not while they can dictate to us (and they can, except for the exceptionally knowledgable) and make money doing it.
Re:IE all over again (Score:4, Insightful)
Nope.
Apparently it's too hard for a CEO to parse the upgrade page where it asks "Do you want to use the windows defaults or your old defaults for opening programs?". I wasn't paying the most attention to the part after, but I vaguely recall maybe even a mini tutorial on rightclick > open with > set as default from the list after clicking OK from the keep my default settings page.
Not saying there is nothing wrong with Windows 10, the start menu for instance is NOT worth a shit.... it is just a list in alphabetical order of programs with no sane grouping. Thankfully classic shell has a build that works with 10. Other than the one 8.1 laptop I upgraded I think I will keep my win7 machines for a while.
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Real freaking difficult.
On the other hand, it's not MSs responsibility to ensure that old versions of other peoples software is compliant with their new OS, so yes, it makes sense to have upgrades change the default to one they know will work. That way the users that prefer the other browsers can use the default one to download a new version of the one they prefer, even i
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When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers
Did you never wonder who the 'My' in 'My Computer' is referring?
Heres a hint; its not you.
Heres another hint; it originally meant "My, Bill Gates's, Computer
Oh the irony! (Score:5, Interesting)
Lemme repost directly from HN for convenience:
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I can't see that I recognize that problem on my Firefox installation, it looks more like they did have an infected system by some unwanted program/virus/adware.
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Yeah quite. This is rich coming from Mozilla. "Removing user choice" has pretty much been their UX team's modus operandi for years now (and telling users they never really wanted that choice anyway; they wanted Chrome). Now they go whining to Microsoft about a lack of user choice? Go fuck yourselves, Mozilla. Only Pale Moon gives a shit about what you guys used to.
European Union (Score:4)
Pot, meet Kettle (Score:2)
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I don't even see the problem.
My Browser default (under Windows 7, at work) is IE-whatever.
If I want to start browsing, I fire up my browser of choice and get to it. IE does not get a look in.
Mozilla had better gear up... (Score:5, Interesting)
.
Microsoft has caught the smell of Firefox's current weakness and is exploiting it.
What to watch: will Firefox's marketshare drop to the point where Firefox no longer has any impetus in pushing for, or moving towards, new web standards? A browser's marketshare needs to be over 20% (some say, well over 20%) for the browser to have that amount of gravitas.
Perhaps this default settings quarrel is Microsoft trying to grab a lump of marketshare for Edge, giving Edge a big boost towards that 25% mark and cementing Edge as a replacement for Firefox in setting web standards.
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And what alternative browser do you think that we shall use that actually supports some of the add-ons that Firefox have?
The fact that Firefox is getting bloated - blame the development of the web, like HTML5 support needed.
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The fact that Firefox is getting bloated - blame the development of the web, like HTML5 support needed.
Or Pocket....
EU Antitrust (Score:3, Interesting)
Recommended Reading (Score:2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog
Pot Meet Black Kettle (Score:5, Insightful)
Just like how a semi-recent firefox update forced a new search engine on users by changing my long accepted default. The irony is delicious!
Misleading (Score:2)
The upgrade process asks you if you want "express settings" or if you want to make choices. If you're wanting to keep certain apps as defaults, you go the non-express upgrade route. It takes a few minutes at most. The only reason for Mozilla to be worried is that MS has the new lightweight browser while Mozilla now has the bloated piece of crap. The only problem with MS's new Edge browser is the lack of ad block.
Just change it back. (Score:2)
FTFY!
Mozilla lies. (Score:5, Informative)
-5 troll article here.
I just installed Windows 10 last night. After the install was complete and you log in the first time, it asks you which of the installed browsers you would like to use. It still had Chrome, I selected it and it has since used it.
Does Mozilla want theirs to be at the top of the list? Do they expect that Windows 10 will carry over every setting from 7, 8, and 8.1?
Did the Mozilla CEO even try to install Windows 10 before firing off a message complaining?
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AC has your answer. The Express install changes the defaults, as it redefaults many settings. If you do Custom, it asks after the first login.
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Did the Mozilla CEO even try to install Windows 10 before firing off a message complaining?
Well, maybe, but who cares? The really important thing is that he didn't contribute to any anti-gay-marriage whatevers.
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Well, I installed a Windows 10 (preview) from scratch and installed firefox/chome. Both asked me to make it default, both got a windows prompt telling me the program wanted to be default, and both times I clicked yes. Default browser after this: The microsoft one. The only thing I could do to change the default was to specifically go to the default applications settings panel and update them specifically to use chome/firefox.
Now mind you, this was a recent pre RTM version so I can't say specifically if that
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This was fixed from what I have read. MS changed the behavior of the default applications applet to prevent the application from doing the change to stop malware installers that change your defaults.
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I upgraded.
You have to select express install for the change to happen. If you choose custom install instead, it asks you which you would like to use. I upgraded a laptop from Windows 8.1 Pro to Windows 10 Pro.
Er, what? (Score:2)
Users who upgrade to 10 will have their default browser automatically changed to the new Edge browse
I upgraded and it gave me a clear screen showing the new defaults, and an option to keep my existing ones, which I chose.
After booting, MPC-HC was still my default video player, foobar2000 was still my default music player, and Opera was still my default browser.
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Users who upgrade to 10 will have their default browser automatically changed to the new Edge browse
NOT TRUE.. I just upgraded to 10 from 8.1, where I had FF as my default browser.. After the upgrade, my default browser was *still* FF....
The son remains the same (Score:2)
This happened with Windows 8 and both Google and Mozilla were all over Microsoft's butt about Browser lock in. It was fixed, things made clearer. Move on.
No idea what he's talking about... (Score:2)
I'm on the released build of Windows 10 and I had zero trouble with making Firefox my default browser. It was no more an issue that it was on XP/Vista/7... Guess the guy just wants to bitch at the MS CEO...
Is this what he's complaining about? (Score:2)
https://twitter.com/ubersoft/s... [twitter.com]
Windows 10 (Score:2)
Is all about cross promoting Microsoft's other stuff Bing Everything, Xbox One, MS Store, IE (renamed). At least they had the decency to not charge you to upgrade to full screen live tile based advertisements for their other offerings like they did with Windows 8. There is not much in either version that truly benefits the user it's all about improving their flat revenue by getting suckers to buy or use their other crap. And of course Cortana is just about getting people to use Bing.
Just open the browser you want to use (Score:2)
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Pot meet Kettle (Score:4, Insightful)
FTS: "We strongly urge you to reconsider your business tactic here and again respect people’s right to choice and control of their online experience by making it easier, more obvious and intuitive for people to maintain the choices they have already made through the upgrade experience.
Oh... you mean the way you guys did when you both inflicted Australis on the world and changed the default search engine to Yahoo?
Bad summary and/or FUD (Score:4, Interesting)
Users who upgrade to 10 will have their default browser automatically changed to the new Edge browser
No they won't. It popped up a screen that asked me if I wanted to change my defaults for four common tasks to the new Win10 apps for those tasks. Photos, videos, music, and browser. I clicked no on each, and my old defaults carried over.
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Yep. I can't remember the last time I chose to use Internet Explorer. I tried Project Spartan and it was all right, but on windows 10 I'm using Chrome. Works fine. Mozilla has blown for many, many years. And Chrome is starting to make the same mistakes.
And the OS I use those most? Android.
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The Chrome UI has annoted me from the start, and I trust Google about as far as I can throw their corporate HQ, but Chrome still has some neat tech.
Anyone know? Is there a chromium fork with a different UI, as Pale Moon is to FF?
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Opera?
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I know a guy with a Vista laptop (2GB RAM) and IE on it. I'm always amazed that's it's all up to date every time I check (Windows updates, antivirus)
That must be IE9, and it seems a good enough browser. Well, using IE minimizes the amount of updating and Windows would still download and install IE security patches anyway.
As far a random user PC go, this PC is a very good idiot box. I know enough to leave the fuck of it alone.
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Funny thing - I've upgraded OSX twice on my laptop, and each time, my old prefs and settings were right where I left them. Even the wallpaper was where I left it. The only settings I had to dork around with were ones attached to new features...
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Yeah, but this is a Mozilla car analogy we're talking about here.
In the current 2015.7 model, release, the UX team has decided that a 5-button hamburger menu on an AM dial (and only from 1100Khz to 1150KHz in 10KHz increments) is all that's needed. Users who want to access a wider range of frequencies in the A
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... to give away a free new version of Windows that forces users into their own browser and apps, again.
Yeah, but no-one can be forced to use Windows any more. There are far too many alternatives.
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The alternative solution is to just start the browser you want, and select to make the browser the default when it asks. That will open the default programs window where you can set which browser to use.
So even for a novice, it's one extra step to select the browser rather than just switching it like it did in previous versions.
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Thank God, as incompetent as Mozilla's management appears, they're still not that stupid.
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Microsoft is actually on the side of those corporations that want to take control of your system away from you, for marketing and advertisement and monetization purposes. You are the product, not their customer.
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In theory yes, in practice, that makes testing an upgrade process exponentially more difficult to test.