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Mozilla Founder Slams Mozilla Foundation For Adopting Cryptocurrency Payments (twitter.com) 130
A user writes: Jamie "jwz" Zawinski, famous for being one of the original Netscape developers, being a founder of the Mozilla project, and for this axiom, has laid into Mozilla after the Firefox developers announced they was accepting Dogecoin, Bitcoin, and Ethereum cryptocurrency payments, via Bitpay, for Mozilla's services and donations. Quote jwz: "I'm here to say fuck you and fuck this. Everyone involved in the project should be witheringly ashamed of this decision to partner with planet-incinerating Ponzi grifters."
UPDATE (1/6/2021): Days later the Mozilla Foundation announced they were instead pausing cryptocurrency donations to review whether the idea "fits with our climate goals."
UPDATE (1/6/2021): Days later the Mozilla Foundation announced they were instead pausing cryptocurrency donations to review whether the idea "fits with our climate goals."
Exquisite prose! (Score:2)
Ouch, however you feel about our ability to "incinerate" the planet, that's as memorable as the "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" [wikipedia.org] was...
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I prefer "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher
Well he is not wrong. (Score:2)
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Re:Well he is not wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
It lets extortionists extort, speculators speculate, and grifters grift.
It hasn't, to my knowledge, facilitated any of the things that money is good at -- like letting me exchange my ability to program computers or teach science or play music for bread or a place to live. US dollars do that, though.
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That does sound remarkably like the history of oil exploitation.
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Yes, it does. And the burning of oil is contributing to climate change, and we need to stop doing it.
But that doesn't change the fact that burning oil has advanced human society in some pretty significant ways.
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The problem with taking analogies too far....
Until quite recently there wasn't a realistic alternative to oil, never mind superior ones. Crypto currency is such a poor currency that it's very rarely used that way, and most of the people who have tried have quickly given up. So if you're expecting it to revolutionize the world, you should probably think about backing something more realistic. Like the EM drive.
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Bitcoin uses enormous amounts of electricity and does nothing, while EM drive uses moderate amounts of electricity and does nothing.
So this begs the question: with a thousand EM drives, could you mine bitcoin?
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This is a fascinating question, clearly worthy of some advanced project grant funding.
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So does USD.
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Yes. But dollars also let me exchange my labor for turnips. I cannot get paid for my labor in bitcoin (unless I am a cybercriminal, I guess) and cannot go to Wegmans and exchange said bitcoin for turnips.
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I have received and paid for both goods and services, all legally, in Bitcoin. It's not the default, but it's certainly not impossible.
(Though, in hindsight, I do rather regret spending 2 BTC on mybackpack I bought from Overstock way back when. It's an excellent bag and I use it often, but I rather wish I'd held onto it a bit longer. ;) )
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There are legitimate employers that will give you the option to accept all or part of your salary in the form of bitcoin or other crypto.
There are legitimate companies as well as individuals who will accept bitcoins or other crypto in exchange for goods and/or services.
There are plenty of legitimate companies that will not pay your salary in USD, and will not accept USD as payment for goods or services. Most companies will only pay your salary or accept payments in whatever native currency is used in the co
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Re: Well he is not wrong. (Score:2)
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You can buy some pretty good drugs with it.
Re: Well he is not wrong. (Score:2)
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The main advantage is this: it's always accessible and you don't need any particular party's permission to use it. 99% of the world can have the attitude of "fuck that business and its customers" and you still get to perform the transaction anyway. You can't do that with proprietary payment forms such as credit cards or paypal (and in fact their proprietariness means you really only need epsilon% of the world to say "fuck you" for you to lose).
Some businesses simply won't ever
RTFL (Read The F*** Links) (Score:5, Interesting)
Jamie "jwz" Zawinski, famous for [...] this axiom ["now you have two problems"]
... then links to an article that debunks it and says David Tilbrook is the actual author.
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This post is completely incorrect it debunks nothing and does not say Tillbrook is the actual author.
Then you didn't read the whole article either:
As cute as the “now you have two problems” quote is, it seems that Jamie wasn't the first to come up with the idea. The same quote (but with AWK rather than regular expressions as the punch line) shows up in the sig of John Myers post from 1988, where he credits a “D. Tilbrook” for it:
“Whenever faced with a problem, some people say `Lets use AWK.'
Now, they have two problems.” -- D. Tilbrook
and the December 16th, 2020 update, which quotes Tillbrook saying he came up with that phrase in a conference in 1985.
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None of your words are unique to you. They've all been said by somebody else before.
Next time you use a cliche... did you provide a citation?!?!?!?
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Ponzi grifters (Score:2)
I'm using that - Ponzi grifters...
Molotov Cocktails instead of Regular Expressions (Score:2)
Some people, when confronted with a problem, think “I know, I'll use regular expressions.”
Now they have two problems.
Quoting Jason Mendoza [youtube.com] in The Good Place [wikipedia.org]:
I'm telling you, Molotov Cocktails work.
Any time I had a problem, and I threw a Molotov cocktail ...
Boom, right away, I had a different problem.
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I guess (Score:2)
Bitcoin (Score:1, Insightful)
Don't wanna talk about other cryptos but if you study Bitcoin's history just a tiny bit you'll quickly realize it's never been a Ponzi scheme or even something remotely related to it. None of bitcoin's developers has ever advertised it or offered to invest in it and get more on your investment.
Re: Bitcoin (Score:5, Informative)
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Hi, a very big "if" don't you think? ;-)
There are so many things about Ponzi schemes which are not present in Bitcoin, comparing them is kinda ... illogical to put it mildly:
Bitcoin's only promise so far has been: "An attempt
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But they do promise insane ROI based on very dubious logic. Bitcoin is _deflationary_. There's a finite supply of it. Bitcoin is also designed to get harder over time, thus making its supply/demand ratio skyrocket over time.
It has an insane amount of advertising - this advertising doesn't have to come from the primary developer. The deflationary nature of it insures that those that jumped on early will tout it for you.
The ledger aspect of it is merely a side-effect in that transactions have to be rec
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No one on Bitcoin's team has ever done that. Media does, media hypes but that's media, not Bitcoin developers. The rest of your comment is very much beside the point (of a Ponzi scheme).
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of course BTC and other coins qre Ponzi scams, whether it is explicitely stated or not, this is their entire purpose. In 2021 all gains in BTC happened early in the year, since then whenever new people purchased it, they only saw the prices drop. Also major TV network entire business model seems to be pumping Bitcoins (and other crypto currencies), developers don't have to do it, many other people do.
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What worries me is that they seem to be trying to pivot away from making a browser. They keep trying different things until one works.
Re: Bitcoin (Score:2)
This is like arguing whether Beanie Babies were a pyramid scheme. I think the only correct answer is "no," while simultaneously nodding.
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So if I sell you a car that will likely explode but don't claim it "won't explode", I'm not selling you a dangerous car?
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The bitcoin developers just made available a system, the fact that some *other* people misuse that system for fraudulent purposes has nothing to do with the system itself.
There are plenty of ponzi schemes based around fiat currency too.
Grifters (Score:1)
partner with planet-incinerating Ponzi grifters
Why is he so opposed to US fiat currency?
There's your pullout quote (Score:2)
planet-incinerating Ponzi grifters
That's golden.
I like Jamie (Score:2)
I just wish he wasn’t so reserved. It’d be good if he learned to occasionally come out of his shell and let us know what he *really* thinks.
Energy Usage (Score:1)
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Yea but we have way more efficent money transfer systems now. For every 1 bitcoin transaction you can do 1,200,000 Visa transactions [statista.com]
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Bitcoin is 13 years old. When VISA was 13 years old it couldn't process any transactions in real time. In fact, fees were so high up until the 90's that even though you could process them individually, companies would wait til the end of the day and batch process them all to save money. Some companies still do this and it can take DAYS for your transaction to process.
Just like the first credit cards, it took some time for it to evolve into a system that works for most everyone. I expect the same from c
Planet-incinerating Ponzi grifters .. (Score:2)
Nice
Or... (Score:2)
Ponzi scheme (Score:2)
If you can define a criteria by which crypto is a Ponzi scheme, that same criteria will show that traditional cash too is a Ponzi scheme.
JWZ... (Score:1)
... has Woke Mind Disease.
Basic Leftist (Score:1)
JWZ is just your basic leftist. Of course he'd be against crypto and be a supporter of establishment govt. fiat currency.
Emotion (Score:2)
"Reason cannot defeat emotion, an emotion can only be displaced by a stronger emotion" --Baruch Spinoza (b. 1632)
Compared to what? (Score:2)
If you're going to criticize a thing, organization, or person, it's helpful to be able to answer the question: Compared to what?
National currencies can also be used for ransoms, bribes, etc. In some circumstances one is better than the other for a criminal's purpose. The same is true for beneficial uses of currency.
National currencies can be devalued via inflation, with devastating effect on the populace -- modest with moderate inflation, severe with hyperinflation. In a country where, on payday, you a
Maybe it’s time for an energy use fact check (Score:1)
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Fax and phone machine operators? What planet are you from?
That can only be Golgafrincham [fandom.com].
Re:Has Been Says Words (Score:5, Insightful)
Who cares what a has been thinks?
By your logic we should only listen to famous people and not care what you think either. At least he is a has-been, what is your claim to fame ? Joking aside, the beautiful thing about internet is that everyone can have a voice. One of my favorite memes applies to this situation. It is a picture of Kermit the frog, drinking a cup of tea and saying "Not everyone knows this, but you can read something on the internet that you don't agree with and just go on with your life."
Re:Has Been Says Words (Score:4, Funny)
you can read something on the internet that you don't agree with and just go on with your life."
No you can't!
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Did you try to make this into some kind of buzzword bingo?
I suggest you take the night off reading online and do something about that temper.
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This appears to be the digital currency actually being used for its purpose though, rather than as a speculative investment casino. Before the value of Bitcoin first exploded, I don't think anyone would have had this kind of reaction to allowing payments with it. Receiving payments in it still might have been derided, but mainly because of it's perceived lack of value or a future. It seems like the actual scams that have occurred should get most of the derision today rather than the simple act of allowing p
Re:Has Been Says Words (Score:5, Insightful)
Who cares what a has been thinks?
everyone should care when decent people speak out, only the unethical resent criticism
face facts, greed, selfishness and irresponsability are wrecking the biosphere
Re:Has Been Says Words (Score:5, Insightful)
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Do you have any strong arguments for Bitcoin as a pyramid scheme that distinguish it from any other fiat currency?
The value of a Euro or US Dollar is based solely on what others are willing to exchange for it. There hasn't been any kind of commodity backing for either of them for decades.
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I'd rather hold Bitcoin or some other solid Crypto like Ada or Ethereum over Fiat.
Fiat currency trends towards zero over time, due to inflation:
https://www.statista.com/stati... [statista.com]
Crypto is decentralized, censorship resistant, independent of banks and other middle men, faster and transparent. Yes, there are some crypto "whales" who control a lot of coins, but this is no different than in the "real" world of assets like stocks, real estate or gold - a small minority owns a disproportionate amount of the wealth.
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The dollar and the Euro do have a commitment from the respective governments to maintain their value. This is far from ironclad, but it a lot more than bitcoin has.
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I'm not well informed on the mechanisms underlying the Euro, so I'll take your word for that.
To my knowledge there is no such commitment by the US government vis-a-vis the dollar. Is that a law or rule I've missed? The best I have is "It's in the interest of the government to maintain some reasonable inflation to maintain both office and order." That's not significantly different from the interest of bitcoin miners, holders, and users to also maintain their buying power.
Bitcoin is by no means perfect. Min
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(This is an area of my current interest. Thanks for asking!) The Fed targets an inflation rate of 2% per year, and generally have managed to remain below that. Unfortunately, there are significant questions about the
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My apologies if it came across as projection. I initially typed "Bitcoin is no different than any other fiat currency.", but I stepped back from that and asked myself if there could be some point I've missed. I haven't heard any truly compelling arguments, yet, but I am still listening.
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I can see why people would think the first, although frankly you just have to see the damage caused by the extraction of gold (probably the closest conventional analogy to BTC) to realise that isn't a clear cut thing. There are profitable mines running that dig out, transport, c
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That seems like a strange thing for a Russian troll to post. Have things gotten so bad that all the Russians need to do to fuel the flames of social disharmony in USA is to make reasonable posts about the dangerous of global casinos?
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Not to defend those Crypto currencies but it's hardly like the USD, GBP, EUR, and RMB are distributed equally and operating their financial systems is planet-friendly.
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This is also the guy who was quoted saying "Linux is only free if your time has no value" back in 1998. He's not exactly a friend of the Slashdot crowd.
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This is also the guy who was quoted saying "Linux is only free if your time has no value" back in 1998. He's not exactly a friend of the Slashdot crowd.
He's definitely not an enemy of the Slashdot crowd. He is prone to pretty harsh criticism of just about everything though. That includes, for example, operating systems and programming languages that he actually uses. He's been a critic of existing digital currencies for a while, so this objection isn't really much of a surprise.
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Guessing you didn't use Linux back in 1998 because if you had, you more than likely are thinking "welp, Jamie is 2-for-2".
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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If you already had some random hardware and wanted to put Linux on it then it can be painful, but if you are buying hardware specifically to run linux even back in `98 it wasn't too bad.
I specifically bought hardware known to be well supported by Linux and everything worked pretty much out of the box - including sound and ethernet, no wifi at the time.
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There was always plenty of non terminal based applications where it made sense.
Browsers, games, image viewers/editors, graphical document editing, diagramming tools, IDEs, messaging applications, even graphical file management tools (although i tend to find the terminal faster for such things). There have even always been graphical text editors although many people prefer to use a terminal one.
A lot of people actually choose to use terminal based applications in many cases because they offer advantages over
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This is also the guy who was quoted saying "Linux is only free if your time has no value" back in 1998. He's not exactly a friend of the Slashdot crowd.
I started running Linux as my main desktop in 1999. At the time I'd be inclined to agree with him. The only saving grace was that as a college undergrad, my time indeed had no value.
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He has been. You have not. Pipe down, Nobody.
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Opinions are like assholes -- everyone has one. Sometimes they even smell. Thanks for your toxic opinion that adds nothing useful to the discussion.
Why you don't you actually focus on the message instead of shooting the messenger with an inverse appeal to authority fallacy.
Specifically, WHY is this a bad idea? Or to play devil's advocate, WHY is this a good idea?
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Says Mr Anom
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Just wait til Jamie hears about environmental impact of governments and big business, farming, fishing, the gosh darned auto industry.
Like he's mad at Mozilla for smoking a cig, but ignoring the acres of burning rubbish surrounding him.
Re:Comparison (Score:5, Informative)
Where's the data about the energy costs of credit card, fiat, etc, payments. It would be interesting to see how much more Earth friendly. Or maybe this guy is saying he lives off grid and barters chickens or something instead of money and mozilla should too. ?
For the cost of mining one Bitcoin, you can do roughly 2 billion VISA transactions [marketwatch.com].
So, much more environmentally friendly to do VISA transactions than create a single Bitcon. Next question to move the goalposts?
Re: Comparison (Score:1)
Visa is centralized, and can censor transactions, among many other negatives.
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You keep saying this and it continues to be misleading and untrue.
Mining one bitcoin is not the same unit as a Visa transaction; and some time in the future, you won't be able to mine bitcoin at all. You have to compare transactions to transactions.
One transaction on the Bitcoin network costs about $1.80. This is about what you'll pay to process a $140 Visa card transaction, or to power an average US home for 12 hours.
Excessive energy consumption is not essential (Score:4, Insightful)
While it is a good point to criticise this excessive energy consumption of the first generation, it is a sign of stupidity or malice to generalize that criticism and paint all cryptocurrency, now and forever, as being somehow evil because of it.
As to "Ponzi scheme". Clearly the author of the remark is unaware that all currencies obtain their value only through wide-spread consensus agreement that a certain well-known and well-used token shall have, fairly stably, a certain amount of exchange value. There is literally nothing else, and never has been. I mean gold is not good for much, certainly not for as much as "objectively" (<-meaningless in this context) justifies its consensus-maintained high value. Ooh! Shiny! Ooh, rare! What are we? Magpies? No. It's the meta-level value of establishing stable shared-consensus about exchange value of a measurable (weighable in gold's case) token that gives it the value. Gold was an easy one to establish, I guess, because it has this superficial lustre that can be promoted, and it was rare so inflation (reduction of its exchange value through a simple mechanism of quickly mining more) was not a problem.
Currencies are ALL Ponzi schemes, but schemes which, if they have properties to eventually achieve exchange-value-stability by widespread consensus, have a significant social value, namely, facilitating accountable, transferrable exchange of anything valued by people.
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Re: An economy behind the currency (Score:2)
Because the economy (portion) that will be USING cryptocurrency is global, and the best cryptocurrencies would be massively decentralized, there is no need for a military to defend the said economy, not to defend the stores of
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While it is a good point to criticise this excessive energy consumption of the first generation, it is a sign of stupidity or malice to generalize that criticism and paint all cryptocurrency, now and forever, as being somehow evil because of it.
To be fair, the guy is only complaining about Mozilla supporting the cryptocurrencies which currently exist. Maybe he'll be happy with some future crypto currency?
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There are now carbon negative blockchains that process transactions in 2.5 seconds with finality and cost $0.001 per transaction.
Carbon negative! Brilliant, you can run it off subsidies.
The fact that these exist does point to the current mainstream Crypto not being a long-term investment. Why use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, when there are better ones out there. (Better in every respect it seems, other than notoriety, and amount of sunk cost).