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Harmony project Dead?

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  • 50% of what is posted on /. is either completely
    inflammatory, or total crap.

    99% of that 50% crap is by ACs.

    Make everyone log in and the quality of the
    dialog will increase twofold. Those who really
    have something to say will log in. Those who
    want to troll or flame will be much less likely
    to do so because now their name is associated.

    -Pez
  • JamesKPolk wrote:

    Now his place in history is secure, following in Andrew Johnson's footsteps.

    Yeah, there are lots of parallels. Andrew Johnson was impeached also from a political witchhunt. In Clinton's case, the rules of due process were unconstitutionally suspended in the hopes that something resembling a crime would appear. In Johnson's case, the Democrats passed an unconstitutional law to make Johnson's firing of a cabinet member illegal.

    Both impeachment trials were embarrasing farces. In both cases the President's behavior was just as embarassing as the behavior of those trying to "get" the President. However, at least Clinton was sober when he gave his inaugural speach :-).
  • here is nothing wrong with the windows desktop, it works ok andlots of people are happy with it, but YES, the underlying windwos OS is crap and shit, but the idea/design of the front end shell is workable and usefull!, cant say that for many WM's or crapp CDE or so called other poor attepts by lamers at semi usefull filemanagers/environments....
    What is KDE?

    A file manager? Here is my filemanager. I say it is not only more powerful but, for me, easier to use than the kfm.

    Wed Jan 27, 23:28:13 - 0 mesgs. 022-erich.users-/var/media/mp3
    fozzi:169->

    KDE has an application launcher panel? I have an application launcher, too. I say it is more powerful than yours, and I feel it is more elegant. It looks something like this:

    Wed Jan 27, 23:28:13 - 0 mesgs. 022-erich.users-/var/media/mp3
    fozzi:169->

    You say KDE has a window manager? I have one too. You can get it here [wiw.org]. You say KDE has a crappy web browser? I have one too, it's called ``netscape.'' And it only loads when I tell it to.

    I wish someone could explain to me why it is so much better to be able to double click-on-your-mp3-directory-then-double-click-on-y our-catagory-folder-then-double-click-on -your-artist-then-drag-a-box-around-your-titles-th en-double-click-then-wait-for-x11-amp-to -load-and-play-your-mp3 then it is to type amp mp3/Cl<tab>Bee<tab>9th*<enter> I just don't understand. Maybe easier to learn but certainly not easier to use.

    So, what you're saying is that KDE is a substitute for learning how to do things better. I can see that. I don't think it's right, but I can see that.

  • Um, the beauty of all the Unixes is that one can choose any sort of interface they want. If you like something else, great. If some people like KDE, they can use it.

    What's with this attitude of, "I don't like it, therefore no one shall use it?" With Windows, you're stuck at one interface, basically. The wide array of choices in Unix environments is what many people like.

    And some of KDE's programs are great at simplifying certain configuration. Take kppp. I already have pppd setup and running, but I went ahead and took a look at what all the excitement was with it. I must say, it's a pretty cool tool. I had my net connection up and running in a couple minutes, no headaches. But, many people still don't want things like Linux to spread to new groups of people (who have been coddled to death with Windows), so they hate anything that does this.

    Anyway, my point is if you don't like it, don't use it. But why demand it be wiped from existence?
  • by vertigo (341)
    The majority of the posts in this forum make even the zdnet forums look like a place of common sense, intelligence and well-formed opinions.
    At first i was agreeing with Katz' latest column about the value of anonymous cowards. Maybe he's right that Anonymous Cowards are neccesary, but no more than shit is neccesary. And i value the posts by these lame morons even less.

  • Hey, maybe it's just my not ever having used Windows, but I _don't_ think the windows desktop is workable and useful. I detest almost all the decisions made in it. I used a Mac for years, and still use one, and I'm posting from one right now- and I _don't_ want a window manager that acts like a Mac, either. (impossible to get anything even vaguely close as far as consistency etc).
    On Linux, I use Window Maker, after also having enjoyed Afterstep. Some of the Window Maker decisions I absolutely love- most of all, I am fond of the clean uncluttered nature of it. If I want lots of additional tiles I'll make many workspaces and keep different apps docked on each one... the idea that I need to be subjected to a taskbar, and a start menu, and a certain way of handling virtual desktops (I'm undecided which is better, Afterstep or WM- Afterstep's mini iconic version is very nice, but WM's 'you put it there, you remember it' is gratifying, and the clip 'switcher' is damned elegant in practice)
    My point is that I am really pretty hostile towards KDE, due to its stated objectives and obvious goals. If I wanted the Windows desktop _I_ _WOULD_ _USE_ _IT_. Instead I used (and use) a Mac for years- and don't intend to try and change it into Windows or into WM- and using Linux, I went for Window Maker and don't intend to change it into the Mac, or into Windows.
    I'm really sick of the notion that we should make Linux better by making a shell that acts like Windows, only without crashing. Is that the best you can do? Do you have _any_ _idea_ how very specific that approach is? It's not that way by accident. The taskbar is there because people used to launch apps on the Mac and not understand when the app waited for them to select or create something- or switch to another app, hide the first and 'out of sight, out of mind'. The concept of relying on the user's ability to know what the hell they are doing is laughed off by this approach- it's always luser-friendly in Windows land, until you want to scream. I'm sorry, but even if I'm only some Mac weenie with a hacking gene from somewhere, I'm still not going to sit around quietly as people try to pass off the design of Windows as workable and useful.
    Build your own, or stay home.
    There already _IS!!!_ a Windows. It is obscene to attempt to build another one. Build something original.
    *hehe* goody, I can get flamed by KDE people for the rest of my life for _this_ one ;)
  • If I want One True Way I can tell you right now what I'd be using. MacOS ;) MacOS is seriously consistent, has a massive supply of apps with very long lifespans, and is easily fixed if anything goes wrong with it. Boot off something and shuffle stuff around in the System Folder, bam- 'no huhu'.
    I _don't_ _want_ 'One True Way'. I want many different ways. Currently I'm a Window Maker fan on LinuxPPC, but I also liked Afterstep. I never managed to get Enlightenment working, but if I had I'd have played with that too. I played with twm, for God's sake, and enjoyed it! (wow... it's like the void of meditation...)
    The KDE people are really beginning to annoy me with this attitude. I know where they got it- Microsoft- and since in their world my years of happy Mac use are a delusional fantasy and mirage, clearly they are sincere in feeling that there has to be just one 'winner' and everything else must die.
    Personally, I'd like to see them take that attitude right back to Windows, and LEAVE it there, and not pollute Linux with it. Linux is a 'world' where I can try out and use lots of interesting apps, the authors of which had no _clue_ they'd be having their tools compiled and run on a Powermac. It's a world where I can love the Afterstep animated backgrounds- and I'm not the only one to be impressed by, say, 'Swarm'- and can find that hack works perfectly in Window Maker- that it's more general than I thought!
    And it's a world in which I can use kppp to dial out from Window Maker- and struggle for days to figure out what is broken that I can't get wmppp to do the same- and find out that kppp is making _temporary_ changes in important files, so that the configuration data GOES AWAY when you stop using KDE tools!
    I find that little bit of 'lock-in' hard to forgive, and I wonder how many people have enough of a hacker gene to work out what's being done and look at files being used, figure out what's happening. It's fine not messing with systems that already work, but KDE has sometimes been the system default- like with the linuxppc I began using- and this is not behavior suited to helping people understand how the system really works, this quiet adding and erasing of entries in config files.
    I don't find it unthinkable that someday I'd treat KDE tools and applications like Microsoft code and eradicate it upon discovery- it wouldn't take much to reach that point, after my merry hunt for the pppd gremlins.
    The frothing, deadly advocacy of some of the KDE advocates does _not_ help. Maybe some of the less ruthless ones can try to cool off the problem cases and make 'em get with the program? Their 'KDE will march on a road of bones!!!' attitude is absolutely unacceptable.
  • Sure, Qt is Open Source(tm), but it still is not GPL-compatible, making linking KDE with it still illegal.
  • Unless KDE took GPL source from somewhere else, this just plain isn't true.

    There's quite a lot of GPL source from other places in KDE, which is the reason I made my original comment. I'm quite aware that the authors can do whatever they want with their own source, but they can't do whatever they want with the GPL'd source of other people. They do not have the permission of every single code contributor to make an exception to the linking part of the GPL, so therefore linking KDE with Qt remains illegal.
  • by Trepidity (597)
    I have no problem with KDE or the KDE developers, and could care less whether it looks like Windows or not. The problem I have is that the GPL is a license agreement, and it needs to be respected. When the GPL says you cannot link GPL'd code with non-Free libraries, it means exactly that. Of course, the KDE team can write an exception for the Qt libraries into the license for their code, but they do not have the right to amend the license of code which is not their own. They take quite a bit of GPL'd code from other people, and the license of that code must be respected, whether it is convenient or not. They can't just decide to ignore the GPL because they feel like it.

    It seems to me that KDE wants to be GPL in name, so they can use source from other GPL'd apps, but not in practice, so they can continue linking to non-GPL-compatible libraries. If they want to do so, making KDE LGPL would solve that problem, and would be fine with me. However, they have not done so, so they are violating the GPL, which is illegal. I don't care if their interface is better, more advanced, or the best one possible, but it's still illegal.
  • by HoserHead (599)
    I've used Linux fulltime since 1.4.xx
    Really? Wow. What an accomplishment, especially considering there was no 1.4 series of kernels. It went straight from 1.3 to 2.0, and that invalidates everything you say, moron.
  • Posted by Mephie:

    So all the people who wish to be anonymous would just choose an account that many people can use, such as cypherpunks. Then you would demand "BAN CYPHERPUNK!!!" and they would just make another account. It's just way too much trouble.
    --Mephie

  • Posted by timtan:

    Well, it's sad whenever something people care for dies. But's that's just natural selection.

    Harmony had good intent but it wasn't really going anywhere. Developers really should spend their time writing useful software rather than bicker about license-this;that.

    Nobody's going to all of a sudden pull a fast one on the free-software community. The community really ought to know that it's powerful enough to counter anything unethical by Troll folks.

    ====
  • ...am very sad to see the Harmony project die. I followed the mailing list for a long time. I wish I had the time and the know how to work on the project. Today is a sad day.

  • I count myself a KDE person (as a spectator sport, anyway). These flamers are not "KDE people," they're just adolescent imbeciles.

    Personally, when I have time and bandwidth and the GNOME library situation is straightened out (I understand it's much better now), I plan to get it, play with it, and make whatever constructive criticism/contribution I can -- as I do now with KDE.

    Competition and choice are good things. These children are simply confused by their hormones, and would flame over shoe sizes ....

    Craig

  • you'll have to dig a bit, and it's alpha, etc. etc., but someone has of course cooked up a way to use GTK in multithreaded applications.

    I have it lying around *somewhere*, unfortunately I'm dorking out with Perl and Java and databases instead of doing any real programming so I can't comment on whether it works well.

  • The only reason it started was to encourage acceptance of KDE. Between Trolls kind-of-open license and GTK+, the project doesn't need to continue.
  • You're right Pez. I mostly lurk nowdays because a) I'm too busy to post, and b) half of the posts are just crap. Slashdot is becoming a home for the socially challenged and clueless. Back about a year ago /. was cool, and there were some interesting threads, and people exchanged some good ideas. Lately it's been more like IRC.

    TedC

    PS. KDE 1.1 looks pretty cool; I like the Mac menubars.

  • Unless KDE took GPL source from somewhere else, this just plain isn't true.

    The authors released the code which inherently had to link to GPL-incompatible code. That means that KDE is not GPL, no matter how many times anyone calls it GPL--including the authors.

    The action of releasing it with that dependency changes the license. This is very basic law; getting it wrong would fail a contract exam in law school or on the bar exam. The law doesn't tolerate absurdity, and holding the authors to violate their own license would be so. Like LyX, KDE is quasi-GPL, not GPL.

    But then, it was undisputed for 612 years, 1386-1998, that perjury was not only impeachable, but one of the most serious impeachable offenses, and there's folks that are suddenly claiming it isn't

    hawk, esq., who isn't sure why he bothers.
  • Given that KDE isn't GPL to start with, but quasi-GPL, the patches fall under the same license. To hold that patches come under a different license than the code itself gets back to the legal absurdity problem.

    It would take true GPL code from another project, not patches to KDE, to bring up a GPL & linking issue.

    Oh, and LyX (and therefore KLyX) aren't GPL, either. Though putatively GPL, they're also quasi-GPL. And at the moment, we're putting together a license clarification (not change) to avoid the KDE-style fiasco.
  • Bump the level up one. Usually the crap doesn't get a rating. Isn't that why it's there?
  • Actually, you coudln't be more wrong. Most PC's today have processors which can easily outrun the I/O subsystems to which they are attached. Multithreading allows the CPU to continue to work on other tasks while it waits for the I/O systems to get back to it. Sure, multi-processing does this too, but multi-threading can be the more correct approach in many situations.

    Your point about threads vs. multi-threading is quite correct. This is because a Unix process is essentialy a thread with it's own memory address space. As I said before, this can be a great way to get the job done in many situations, but it's not always appropriate.
  • Actually, the guys who developed SML/NJ made a multi-threaded version of the language. As I recall, they developed a multi-threaded X/Server as a demonstration app.

    In general, you have to keep in mind a few things: threads have only become a standard part of Linux since glibc2 was adopted (some say that process is still ongoing ;-), Linux threads still have some annoying limitations and aren't 100% posix compliant, XFree86 designs their server to run on a plethora of OS's, some of which I suspect either lack threads or have non-standard thread models.
  • Huh? I love GTK+, but I was under the impression that it was virtually guaranteed to go up in flames if you used it in a multithreaded way..

    Daniel
  • The day you have a product of any kind, I would
    love to see you guarantee you won't sue me.

    Guess what? Nobody that has a product ever does that.

    The FSF won't guarantee it won't sue me either.
  • -----------
    While that is technically true, (certainly here in lawsuit-happy USA), I don't think the
    parallel is valid. A company saying "we don't guarantee we won't sue" implies, in many
    peoples mind "if you cross a line that you are very close to, we will sue you". I'm sure
    the thought of a likely lawsuit did not help encourage Harmony developers to stick around.
    -----------

    So basically what you say is that you believe the
    people at Troll Tech having a lower moral standard than the people at the FSF, and that such prejudice has affected your reading of that quote.

    Troll Tech is not in the US. You should not taint
    their statements with the weird idea US people have of lawsuits as a tool to opress.
  • by Roberto (1777)
    The Kimp was *never* distributed, so it can hardly have been removed from distribution.
  • Not for me. And I run on a slower system than you: a P133, 64MB RAM. I use Enlightenment, have two panels, and lots of applets. I've run StarOffice and Netscape at the same time as well, and not felt too bad - although I wouldn't recommend playing MP3s at the same time unless you have a Rio. :-)

    Part of it is tuning. I've found that sound support is a CPU hog. But, one click in the control center and that's no longer a problem.

    I've also got it on my laptops: a P90, 16MB RAM, and a 486/66, 16MB RAM. You definitely feel the lag, but it's still usable.

    (Once, for a demo at a users' group meeting, I had both KDE and GNOME running on separate X sessions on the 486 laptop. If you want to know lag, that's one good way to get real familiar with it. :-)
  • by Candy (2257)
    I fully agree to cease that project.
  • I just bumped up the threshold to 1, and there were a total of 5 comments. Just one of which was a reply...
  • Yeah, but the opinions were somewhat more well founded. *Shrug* I don't have anything better to do than read through all the comments though, so...
  • It's that simple. Reading throgh the posts here
    there is nobody saying "Ohh the QPL stinks so I am
    going to take up this code and help finish Harmony."

    This means that the only valid coments are from
    people whoe say Harmony no longer has a purpose.
  • Just to interject a bit of fact here, libart is definitely not proprietary, nor does it belong in any way to RedHat (though I do realize that the R and H in my name might be confusing :).

    In point of fact, I've been in e-mail communication with Roberto Alsina, a KDE developer, about the possbility of using libart to make an antialiased version of Qt's QPaint widget. Since the current libart is entirely LGPL, there are no licensing problems. I personally would love to see this happen. The more wins for libart, the better chance I have making some money licensing libart into the commercial world.
  • Mozilla is using gtk+ with threading enabled, and have been for a couple months now.

    Of course, Mozilla (SeaMonkey, Gecko, ... whatever) isn't a very stable creature at the moment, but I don't think that's the fault of GTK.

  • > Hey, maybe it's just my not ever having used
    > Windows, but I _don't_ think the windows
    > desktop is workable and useful.

    Using Windows would not change your opinion -
    trust me on that. And I'd also add 'aesthetically
    pleasing' to the list of attributes the Windows
    desktop does not possess.
  • If you watched the Harmony lists, Harmony was effectively dead in the water the day QT declared the next version would be Open Source. Any one who cared about making an original toolkit was working on GTK or their own. The people working on Harmony wanted an open source version of QT. They have that. Why would they continue?

    If you really care about this, the source is listed on the page. Take it and continue.
  • The KDE project uses a widget library called Qt. It provided stuff like buttons, scrollbars, text
    areas, etc. Qt is made by a company named Troll Tech. For a while, Qt wasn't Open Source. This caused a lot of problems in the Linux community because KDE, which was to be the standard desktop, was using a proprietary toolkit. Harmony was started to rewrite Qt as Open Source. Since the, Troll Tech has made a new liscense which most people accept as Open Source. So, you can understand why the Harmony project is dead.
  • The Harmony Project was a coordinated effort to get all the Linux users in the world to sing a single note on New Year's Eve 1999 at midnight UTC, thus ringing in the year 2000 in "Harmony".

    Everyone was also supposed to stand facing Redmond Washington, so the effective resonance of the millions of voices would cause Microsoft's office
    windows to shatter.

    However, no one in the Linux community could agree on which note to sing, so the project was abandoned.

  • Wouldn't multithreading force one to violate the X protocol?
  • Speaking as someone who uses KDE rather than GNOME (for the moment anyway), I'd have to say that you're a bit of a fucking moron, if you'll excuse the language.

    Idiots like you should climb back under your bridges and go play with your Windows boxes.
  • GNOME was fast when it was still using gtk+ 1.0 but now gtk+ 1.1 is ssssoooooooo ssslllloooowwww. It's painful for me to use, I thought kde was slow at first then I tried a .99.x series gnome. AAARRRGGHHH, and enlightenment is slow to, it was nice and usable in the 0.13 days. My machine is not too slow, a Pent 150 with 128MB Ram. But nooooo everyone has to go develop software for these Pentium XXIs running at 87 Kagillion megahertz. Anyway, enough of that. I'll switch to gnome when a) it gets faster or b) I get a new computer.

    Andrew
  • There times I just don't understand why these flame exist. I personally tried:

    1) fvwm
    2) fvwm2
    3) fvwm95
    4) icewm
    5) olvwm
    6) twm
    7) ctwm
    8) wm2
    9) amiwm
    10) AfterStep
    11) Window Maker
    12) Enlightenment
    13) KDE
    14) mlvwm
    15) blackbox
    16) others cannot remember...

    Sorry, never try GNOME.

    My conclusion is: Just choose what YOU like!
    window managers for Linux (or any other UN*X) are just an "interface" to the OS. If worry something is not free, just switch when they start charging. :P

    b5ghost
    ps: Currently been using Window Maker.

  • According to the estimate, quoted in the KDE 1.1pre2 announcement, about 5-6 million users!

    So eat that, Mr Twisted ACer !!
  • no, it's not because of lack of multithreading that Netscape locks up when doing a DNS request, it's because the DNS API (gethostbyname()) is BROKEN in that it doesn't have an asynchronous mode that works with select(). If it did, you would have no need at all to multithread to run something like Netscape.

    OTOH, it's silly to say that Netscape does something because it's not multithreaded, when it actually IS. Look at the source sometime, there's threads all over the place, though on some architectures they're done in user-space, not using kernel threads (clone, rfork, whatever).

  • Let's stop the name calling and get realistic. My girlfriend, who used to exclusively use windows, now likes linux better because of the ease of KDE combined with the stability of linux. She would never even considered linux had it not been for KDE's sweet graphical interface. I'm sure there are many like her. As for me, I like KDE and Enlightenment, and what I've seen so far of GNOME, I like that too. Just because you like one doesn't mean you have to hate the other.
  • This'll probably make the QPL-GPL debate even more rabid. Of course OS never truly dies...
  • KDE is usefull and good, it could easily be made with GTK

    If KDE could use GTK instead of QT "easily", why don't they? Then they wouldn't have to deal with the QT controversies. Somehow I doubt it's that simple.
  • nothing else to say realy

  • "high quality software can't be produced without commercial backing"

    This is so stupid it made me laugh!
  • You can do multithreading with both threads accessing the server simultaneously if you code the program correctly. You would need to create the X connection AFTER spawning the threads.

    Then you just have to make sure that each thread uses its own X connection. Of course this would be a lot easier if this was handled by a widget library.
  • libart is not proprietary. You can get its source off the GNOME CVS server. There is an LGPL portion that is included with gnome-libs (for the antialiased canvas) that can be used by anyone, and a GPL'd portion that can be used only by GPL'd programs.

    The author (Raph) also licences it commercially for people who don't want the restrictions on the GPL portion (this is how he makes a living -- similar to the ghostscript author). What is wrong with this?
  • MICO was replaced by ORBit because MICO generated huge stubs. This was alright if you are only having a few objects, but for the panel, where each applet is a separate object, the memory requirements went up through the roof.

    ORBit is currently C only, but C++ bindings are in development that would be compatible with just about every other ORB.

    For learning uses, first decide what you want to learn, then which language you want to program with (C or C++ are the main ones. There may be some other bindings out there). That will narrow down the choices.
  • You are a bit misguided. In the licence, the definition of the software includes all the relevant libraries (excluding those that are included with the OS, and whatever you may think, qt is not a fundamental inseperable part of linux or any other OS). Here is the relevant part out of the GPL:
    These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it.

    Now, the qt licence would not allow you to licence the complete package under the GPL, and the GPL licence on the original package requires modified versions to be distributed under GPL. Hence the package can't be distributed.

  • ..from KDE developers - I suspect that without it TrollTech would not have felt quite so pressurised to make the Qt License [almost] totally satisfy the demands of the GPL fraternity.
    This would probably have resulted in more KDE developers emigrating to GNOME, and this in turn might have killed both KDE and Harmony.
    Not that I'm saying that GNOME is bad, just that two competing desktops are better than one!
  • So that's why many X apps hang! I've noticed this on Netscape and recently on Filerunner and others. In all cases if the comms takes some time, which it can over a modem link, the whole app will hang. It gives rise to the nasty behaviour that when you switch back from another screen the original app window is blank! Yuk!
  • Isn't there a clause in the Free QT Foundation agreement that if TT ever gets bought out, the latest version of QT gets released under a BSD-type license?
    Red Hat should just buy TT :->
  • IMHO

    Well that sucks. But I guess it will only push for
    a better solution to the linux desk top. I set out one day to determine which widget set makes the most sense, so I wrote the same app in gtk and in QT. QT was a breeze to program in and was intuitive and I had no problem completing my task. But gtk was a mess, It feels like a kludge and is very non-intuitive, I never finished the application, and I refuse to touch gtk again.

    Overall
    gtk is fast, but is a mess to code in.
    qt not so fast, easy to program in, but not GNU

    But in my search I found the FOX widget set. It Rocks. It is easy to program in and is fast AND it compiles in Windows and linux with out much work. Things just make sense with FOX. It is easier to use the QT it is GNU it is cross platform, is supports MDI, it ROCKS.

    http://cyberia.cfdrc.com/FOX/fox.html


    flame me if you want.

    celer

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