GM Working on Feasible Electric Car

WindBourne writes "While Ford wants to simply offer cosmetic changes to automobiles interiors and exteriors, General Motors has finally gotten the message about electric autos. They are about to introduce the Chevy Volt, a plug-in hybrid which gets 40 Miles on a charge, but has a generator that can keep the auto going up to 640 miles range. From a styling POV, it is not a tesla, but it is also not a focus or a pinto. From the Rocky article: 'GM did not release cost estimates but said they recognize the Volt's price will have to be competitive. Company Vice Chairman Robert Lutz said in a statement that more than half of Americans live less than 20 miles from their workplace and could go to work and back on a single charge.'"

The thing to watch:hybrid full size truck platform

Also coming from GM in model year 2008 is the full hybrid GMT900 [wikipedia.org] truck platform [1 [auto123.com], 2 [automobilemag.com], . This encompasses the Chevy Tahoe and Suburban, the GMC Yukon and Yukon XL, and the Cadillac Escalade and Escalade ESV, among others. The hybrid uses the GM/DaimlerChrysler Advanced Hybrid System 2 [wikipedia.org].

The hybrids will feature:

- 5.3L FlexFuel Vortec V8 (able to run using E85 [wikipedia.org], a blend of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline)
- Active Fuel Management (AFM)/Displacement on Demand (DOD), disabling cylinders as needed for cruising
- Two 30kW electric motors inside of the same physical space as the normal automatic transmission
- A continuously variable automatic transmission
- Conventional 110VAC power outlets on board
- Hybrid system derived from the advanced system on already in use on GM's Allison transit buses

This advanced hybrid system, while not plug-in, will be offered on all model year 2008 GM full size SUVs, as well as pickups and fleet vehicles. The expected fuel economy gain is 30% over today's figures on the gasoline/FlexFuel-only AFM variant, approaching 30mpg for city driving. That's a damned good improvement. And when used with FlexFuel, they're using less fossil fuels - even including the fully burdened fossil fuel costs of ethanol - than Prius and Civic hybrid drivers, in addition to contributing to lower overall greenhouse gas emissions. As the process efficiency increases over the next few years, these numbers will improve.

Whether or not one likes or dislikes SUVs, or thinks people should be able to be told what types of vehicles they should or shouldn't be driving, or think subjective judgments can be simplistically made about what other people "need" or don't need, it's still an excellent step forward. While the Volt is very interesting (conspiracy theorists: think of some way the Volt is really still a GM plot to "keep electric vehicles down" or to assist big oil) and using centralized power generation and leveraging the existing electric grid and production capacity is a necessary step to the future, the full hybrid SUVs will be one of the big things that people buy in the short term, not to mention being one of the major things - if not the thing - that may make or break GM in the next decade.

On part, at least, I call bull

And when used with FlexFuel, [GM full size SUVs are] using less fossil fuels - even including the fully burdened fossil fuel costs of ethanol - than Prius and Civic hybrid drivers, in addition to contributing to lower overall greenhouse gas emissions.

I really doubt it. Why?
  * Prius and Civic hybrids get 55 [fueleconomy.gov] and 50 [fueleconomy.gov] MPG combined, respectively. The 2007 Yukon XL 1500 2WD gets 15/21 gas, 12/16 ethanol [fueleconomy.gov]. The 2007 Suburban 1500 2WD gets 15/21 gas, 12/16 ethanol [fueleconomy.gov]. Even give 'em 30% gain and they're nowhere near Prius and Civic.
  * As for the petroleum content of American made ethanol: given that petroleum is used all over the refining process (from fertilizer to transportation), and given that a gallon of gasoline has 124,000 BTU [doe.gov] of energy but the net gain in a gallon of ethanol is a mere 20,000 to 40,000 BTU [gm.com] you get to use 6 gallons of E100 for the fossil fuel cost of 3 to 5 gallons of E0 (gasoline). Let's use the 40,000 BTU number: by using ethanol you can use 4 gallons at the "carbon gasoline cost" of 3 gallons of gas.

So, lets do the math: 30% fuel efficiency gain on 15/21 (we'll pretend that we should be working off of their gasoline and not ethanol numbers) gets us to 19.5/27.3. But, don't forget about the "4 for the cost of 3" -- so the carbon release would be equivalent to a car that gets 26/36.4. Now, sure this is back of the envelope, but I've been really generous -- giving the full 30% on the gasoline numbers (not the ethanol numbers), and giving the very highest estimate for BTU increase.

We're still at 26/36.4 mpg for the GM SUVs vs 50 or 55 mpg for the Civic and Prius hybrids. You're still off by a factor of 2, sport.

I hope this isn't more GM vaporware. I hope this stuff works, and sells. I hope ethanol improvements increase that 40,000 BTU gain. I hope the 30% efficiency gains are just the beginning.

But even with those gains, (telecommute / walk / bike) > (bus / train / subway / carpool) > (high mpg) > (mid mpg) > (SUV) in terms of mpg, roughly speaking.

Re:The thing to watch:hybrid full size truck platf

Where are the turbine/electric hybrids? Why are we still dealing with pistons?

You can't put an effective muffler on a turbine engine. Most drivers would be unwilling to wear hearing protection to drive to their local Safeway. Plus, the vehicle would violate many city's noise ordinances.

It's not like the hybrid concept is really all that new. Diesel locomotives have been "hybrids" for decades. So has "super-sized" construction equipment, like those gigantic dump trucks. They all use piston engines. If turbines were practical in a vehicle, they'd already be in use.

Re:The thing to watch:hybrid full size truck platf

They don't have to. The idea is you have a turbine that can be switched on or off to charge the batteries. This turbine is in no way hooked to the drive train. The car then runs purly in electrical mode all the time. The turbine can be run at peak efficiency.

And yes running all electric this way is actually very efficient, several modders have disconnected the drive train on their prius and showed gas miliage improvements.

Re:The thing to watch:hybrid full size truck platf

Something the parent poster may have been getting at is that turbines tend to be rather loud at speed, have to dump a lot of waste heat, and having parts spinning around a thousand times per second in your car may prove to be a safety issue. That's not to say that a workable turbine design couldn't be done, just that there are some formidable engineering challenges to be met.

Re:The thing to watch:hybrid full size truck platf

Well, it's not thousands of revs per SECOND, it's usually around 10,000 RPM (minute).

But the makeup of a turbine is much different than an typical internal combustion engine. (My dad has worked on both for over 30 years in the aircraft industry as an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer).

A turbine does NOT do well with constantly starting up and shutting down, it will work much better if it's just turned on and left to run forever.

If a turbine "blows up", you better run for cover. If a normal piston engine blows ub, meh, no big deal... it's all pretty well contained in that monstrous engine block and is not generally such a big deal... just expensive.

Tolerances on a turbine are much, much tighter than the piston engine. Maintenance is a MUST.

And yes, turbines are LOUD, and smelly, and generate a lot of heat, and won't do well on current pump gas.

Turbines are not yet ready for the general masses, only a select few, IMO.

Re:Don't be silly

Don't forget there's also the question of 'Who has the most to gain?'. If you think about it a moment, you realize that SUVs, being larger vehicles than a car, stand to save a larger amount of gasoline than a small car. Going from 12mpg to 30 mpg will save more gasoline than 30 to 40 mpg. The larger vehicle also has more space to put the necessary equipment because many of the parts will be about the same size whether it's in a Honda civic or Ford Escape. Oh, and electric motors tend to be more efficient the larger they are, so you can gain a few percentage points there. Add in the systems end up costing less as a percentage of the cost of the vehicle as a whole, and I wonder why they didn't come out with hybrid SUVs sooner.

Basically, it actually makes more sense to put hybrid systems into SUV's than compact cars. It's part of the reason that locomotives have been effectivly hybrids for years(major reason is the elimination of the transmission, of course).

Re:Don't be silly

Actually, stop and go is the best case for hybrids. Reciprocating engines are most efficient when they can be designed to work at fixed rpm. Starting from a stop in your car or diesel truck is very inefficient. It is much more efficient to use an electric motor for the initial start. Electric motors make max torque at 0 rpm and love low-speed operation.

When I drove transit in Seattle, I was lucky enough to drive their new New Flyer diesel-electric hybrid [metrokc.gov] articulated buses. Because the big diesel didn't have to yank the bus away from a start, the buses were more fuel-efficient and much, much quieter. The lack of transmission made them unbelievably smooth. They were also the quickest transit buses I've ever driven despite being heavy 60-footers. The dynamic brakes made for a low-effort brake pedal, very smooth stops, and almost no brake wear. A full hybrid powertrain, while expensive, is absolutely ideal for urban transit buses -- which see more stop-and-go operation than any other vehicles. Fast, quiet, smooth, and fuel-efficient.

Re:Idiotic rational

I find it interesting that so many people in this kind of discussion ignore customer preferences. We are not East Germany, whose government said, effectively, "Drive this Trabant or nothing!" We are America. We give people choices. And, I might add, even our biggest SUVs are cleaner than the Trabant was. A LOT cleaner.

So the problem is that most people - at least most Americans - like big, heavy cars and trucks better than small and light cars and trucks.

Many will buy what they want even if it gets 7mpg.

If technology can take a car that goes 7mpg and make it go 27 mpg, that's an enormous win - much more so than increasing an econobox from 30 to 40mpg.

I don't think there's anything wrong with giving people what they want. In fact, I think it's a big virtue of the USA that we do.

I don't like big SUVs myself - my car is the big, heavy Mercedes-Benz S-Class, that flies and gets about 20mpg in my hands. I'll probably drive something like that for the rest of my life, because I love driving that particular kind of car.

And you're not going to prevent me from doing that -- at least as long as we're still America. A hybrid S-Class would give me better acceleration and fuel economy. It would be cool. I'd buy it. And I would save fuel and money doing so.

(Although I might find the Tesla roadster hard to resist thanks to its audacity).

D

Re:Don't be silly

I've been looking at a lot of motorcycles. The vast majority get only 25mph from what I have seen. This includes Hondas and Harleys.

I call bullshit.

I've been riding motorcycles for 12 years and I've never owned or personally seen a motorcycle that got worse than 35mpg. Most bikes for the US market get somewhere in the range of 40-45mpg. So, either you're doing a horrible job of reading motorcycle specs or you're some sort of incompetent big-oil astroturfer. Your assertion might be true if you limit your search to highly modified huge touring cruisers or racebikes driven by ham-fisted idiots, but even then...

(numbers are from the manufacturer's website, motorcycle.com, or my own personal experience).

All Harley Davidson Sportster 883's are rated 50-55mpg. There are a lot of models in there.
Sportster 1200's models are rated 40-50mpg depending on the exact model.
Evolution engine models are rated right around 40mpg, a smooth hand on the throttle will keep you around 43mpg (personal experience).
Most of the Buell line up (highly modified Sportster 1200 engine) is rated around 45mpg.
600cc Hondas will get better than 40mpg, up to 45mpg depending on how you ride (personal experience). This includes 600f4i, 600rr, and 599.
The Honda Goldwing 1500 is rated at 42mpg. The one I personally know of routinely gets 45mpg. This is a huge luxury tourer.
My wife's Honda Rebel 250 gets 60-65mpg depending on which roads she takes on her commute.
The Suzuki DL-650 is rated at 55mpg and will get almost 60mpg (personal experience).
Suzuki DL-1000 is rated at 45mpg.
Suzuki Hayabusa 1300 is rated at 35mpg and is able to do 200+ mph off the showroom floor. This is the most ridiculously overpowered sportbike on the market.

You should also visit India or anywhere in southeast Asia, where the motorcycles are 80-150cc and the scooters are 50cc. Most of those motorcycles handily exceed 100mpg. The scooters approach 200mpg. In order to achieve these mileage numbers, keeping an average speed at or below 45km/h and shutting off the engine at stoplights becomes important.

The only motorcycle I've heard of that might do as badly as 25mpg is the Boss Hoss. But then they strapped a small-block chevy V8 into a motorcycle as some symbol of excess, so what do you expect.

Only two of three models that I have seen get 50mpg. I've heard this is due to the smaller engine being less efficient than that larger car engine.

Ummmm, yeah. That's why all of the new high-efficiency vehicles are using huge displacement V8's. Don't know what you're smoking, but (1) motorcycles get substantially better mileage than anything but non-diesel cars and (2) it's fundamentally due to the smaller quantity of air/fuel mixture burned per mile. Which directly equates to geared displacement. Small engines can be just as efficient per cc as large engines, and ultimately, having the smallest displacement ticking over per mile results in the highest efficiency.

The only actual efficency argument for cars and against motorcycles is that the aerodynamics of a well designed car can trounce the aerodynamics of the best designed motorcycles. So at high speeds, cars begin to catch up to bikes on the efficiency curve. However, for 99.9% of day-to-day driving, the speeds are low enough that the motorcycle mass advantage is much more important than the car's aerodynamic advantage (somewhere around 100-120mph a 600cc sportbike may have the same mileage as a sports car at the same speed). As a result of this reality, I spend about $4 a week on gasoline while being able to pull away from 95% of the cars on the road. My wife spends about $2.50 a week on gasoline and can pull away from 75% of the cars on the road.

Please choose to inform yourself before continuing this conversation.

Ross

In the showroom in 5 years... maybe.

General Motors has finally gotten the message about electric autos. They are about to introduce the Chevy Volt, a plug-in hybrid

From the article:

GM officials stressed that development of the battery pack is critical to the concept vehicle reaching showrooms, and the technology likely won't be available until 2010 or 2012.

So it's due in 3 to 5 years - assuming GM doesn't change its commitment to the project, and that the battery pack development goes as well as it's hoped to.

Just start building EV-1's again.

GM, just start building EV-1's again. Stop with this "always four years away" nonsense. Just get started. You already have a feasible, marketable car. Just start building it and marketing it.

The EV-1's were by all accounts practical, peppy, fun to drive, reliable, the lease terms were affordable, and when the leases expired the lessees wanted to buy them, and they had a waiting list a mile long of people who wanted them.

The R&D has already been amortized. What's this fixation with needing a 400-mile range? Sure, plenty of people do. Don't try to sell them an electric car. Sell electric cars to the people who don't. Duh. Sell convertibles to the people who want convertibles, sell trucks to the people who want trucks, and sell EV-1's to the people who want EV-1's.

Just get started. Get the things on the market. Get the charging stations in place. Sell cars with an 80-mile range this year, then two years from now bring out models with improved batteries and a 120-mile range, or whatever.

ford?

While Ford wants to simply offer cosmetic changes to automobiles interiors and exteriors

Ford is showing a 65mpg diesel hybrid - with supplemental solar power, no less. I'm not sure why 50mpg hybrids from GM are a revelation but a 65mpg diesel hybrid from Ford is "cosmetic", but there you go.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID= /20060104/FREE/60103014/1115 [autonews.com]

The new green pintos...

...will still occcasionally burn the occupants alive, but a sophisticated emmissions system will only release water vapor with a hint of pork.

Nothing quite like a million cars recharging....

... to push the California power grid six feet under during the summer. This will guarantee year-round brownouts, blackouts, and other power problems. Of course, that means plenty of "repair work" for IT staff.

When they talk about electric/hybrid cars with more nuclear power plants nationwide, *then* we'll have a plan. Otherwise, it's trading one problem for another.

Rest assured, California is not the only state with barely enough power-generation capacity. This could be "just the ticket" to justify hugely higher electric rates nationwide. Has anyone quantified the "recharging load" on the grid? Many people would have to recharge at work during the day to make it back home in the evening. Not all recharging could occur at night. Don't get me wrong. I think it's the right direction. But, the whole system needs to be planned and made to happen. Not just the cars.

A little answer

Who Ignored the Facts About the Electric Car? [gmblogs.com]

GM's EV1 -- Who Killed Common Sense? [edmunds.com]

Re:What is GM doing?

So how can Tesla, a startup company with little manufacturing and car experience relative to GM, build an electric car that can make it 200 miles on a charge

The Tesla's sticker price of $92,500 makes it possible.

We're making progress, though. The only real remaining problem with high performance electric cars is battery cost. The necessary energy density is available if you pay enough.

Re:What is GM doing?

Actually the range for the Volt is 600 miles, not 40 due to the generator. The build cost for that is more reasonable than 5x the batteries, and allows for longer trips. It looks like a smart idea. The electric portion of the car can be generic, while the generator could be gas, diesel, biodiesel, hydrogen or fuel cell. I doubt GM's plan is to sell the car for $100K

Going longer on batteries is nice, but not everyone would agree that going a big further per charge is worth it if it reduces the ability for actual long distance driving. Some people have resorted to pulling trailers with generators for "pure" electric cars for long trips, so this is a much tidier solution. A car only useful for short trips would work for some people, but one that can directly replace an existing car where you don't have to worry about where the next charging location is will have much greater appeal.

Re:20 miles from work?

Is this actually true? I would like to ask Mr. Lutz for a cite or three to back this assertion.

It seems reasonable at first blush, after all, unless you just LOVE sitting in your car idling down the freeway for hours a day, you probably want to live somewhere close to work. The average distance from home to work in Los Angeles is 8.2 miles [ucla.edu] (pdf), which includes claims that this is "consistent" with census data (except that it looks like the Census doesn't report distance, they report travel time [census.gov]) and compares with other metropolitan areas. This [cwru.edu] (another pdf) says that the average first job for people going off welfare is 6.5 miles away. This PDF [trb.org] claims that work causes people to drive an average of 12 miles per day. This site [transact.org] says that over 1/3 of workers in the 100 largest cities drive more than 10 miles to work.

Re:WTF is the point, though?

RTFA. Gasoline motor drives electric generator which is what moves the car. This is NO different than how locomotives work today. All trains are moved with electric motors, each engine being essentially a large power generation station on wheels. It's actually rather efficient.

Re:Is electric really better?

Depending on the length of the cable run, up to 50% of the electricity is lost

Not even close.

Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 7.2% in 1995 [2], and in the UK at 7.4% in 1998. [3] [wikipedia.org]

Re:Is electric really better?

Larger, centralized electricity production is more efficient than having tons of little internal combustion engines running around. On top of that, it's much easier to control pollution at a power plant than it is on all those cars on the road. As I understand it electric cars themselves should be more efficient (fewer moving parts and such, in some designs they can do away with a transmission altogether). Also, we can burn less coal and gasoline, and process less uranium, if more of the power production systems move to renewable sources (solar, wind, hydro-electric).

On top of that, hydrogen is not an energy source. Hydrogen is an energy storage/transmission medium. You have to get hydrogen from something first, and at the moment, I think many producers of hydrogen get it from fossil fuels. So you'd end up with similar problems unless the grid switched to mostly renewable sources. However, I still think it's better than having all those individual little gasoline engines.

Re:Is electric really better?

Also, we can burn less coal and gasoline, and process less uranium, if more of the power production systems move to renewable sources (solar, wind, hydro-electric)

I just saw someone on TV same the same thing and I wanted to mention that the best solution would to keep the nuclear power, but using a better process than is currently in use. Here is why we won't be able to switch entirely to those types you mentioned:

• Hydro: well first off you need a large moving water source. In order to build a dam, you will be changing the ecosystem that is currently in place. You may need to divert the river, possibly greatly changing the ecosystem it supports currently. You will also be creating a large reservoir right in front of the dam.
• Wind: Loud, ugly, possibly changing the climate and environment around them. Same problem as nuclear - no one wants them in sight
• Solar: I like it. However, currently power output isn't enough. That might change in the future, but of course you will still need the sun to power these. Sorry, Seattle.

The future I would like to see still includes nuclear power; just with more modern processing and recycling. My wish is people who claim to be environmentalists, would simply do some research and then perhaps they wouldn't be so afraid of the technology.

Re:Is electric really better?

Electricity generation via fossil fuels may generate pollution, but consider:

• The centralized power plant can be specially tuned to run at a constant speed with optimum efficiency, since the workload is very different from that faced by an automotive engine (e.g. stop/go traffic).
• By running constantly, the centralized powerplant is able to avoid the emissions generated at engine startup, when the catalytic converter hasn't heated up yet
• A central power plant is likely to be much better maintained than most car engines. That also goes for the emissions control equipment. Fluid leaks are more likely to be properly contained and addressed promptly.
• The centralized power plant does not *have* to be driven by fossil fuels. Nuclear power is very viable. Localized solar panels may become an option too, as price / performance improves
• Don't forget to consider the fuel used to truck gasoline to your local gas station, as well as the resulting emissions from that truck.

Re:Is electric really better?

However, in the USA, a lot of electricity is made by burning coal, which is not exactly a clean process.

There, fixed that for you.