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eBay Australia Makes PayPal Mandatory

Posted by samzenpus on Thu Apr 10, 2008 04:04 AM
from the what-about-dubloons dept.
The Internet The Almighty Buck
An anonymous reader writes "Australian press are reporting that eBay is using Australia as a guinea pig to trial a new policy where all other modes of payment are barred except for PayPal. If successful, eBay will roll it out to other markets."

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Firehose:eBay makes PayPal mandatory by Anonymous Coward
[+] Aussie Reserve Bank Eyeing eBay's PayPal Policy 63 comments
Bulldust writes "Regular readers will recollect the recent story that eBay is forcing Australian users over to PayPal or COD as the only forms of payment in June 2008: eBay Australia Makes PayPal Mandatory. It now appears that the Australian Reserve Bank will consider throwing its weight behind users, should the eBay policy be deemed to breach trade practice and competition laws."
[+] Your Rights Online: eBay Australia Delays PayPal Change Indefinitely 56 comments
Daehenoc points out news that eBay Australia has postponed their ban on all forms of payment other than PayPal. The ban had already been delayed once, but eBay Australia has now decided to simply wait for the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission to determine whether or not the move is acceptable. We discussed the beginnings of this story back in April.
[+] News: EBay Abandons Plans For PayPal Monopoly 241 comments
An anonymous reader writes "eBay's has lost its fight to ban all payment methods except PayPal. When Paypal originally announced the scheme it was to be global, but they began with a dry run in Australia to test the reaction of government and consumer authorities. In the public slanging match that followed between eBay and the regulatory ACCC, eBay spammed users claiming it was fighting for 'safety benefits for consumers.' Fortunately the consumers won. Conceded eBay vice president Simon Smith, 'While we disagree with the ACCC's draft notice, we have decided to withdraw the notification to stop any further confusion and disruption among the eBay community.' Nevertheless eBay insists PayPal is now always offered as a payment option. Have big corporations finally learned that they can go too far? More chillingly, if eBay had launched the scheme in America would they have gotten away with it?"
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  • From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Informative)

    by afaik_ianal (918433) * on Thursday April 10, @04:04AM (#23021740)
    It's not just in the media, either. They emailed us all the following:

    Hi

    Because you are a valued seller we'd like to let you know about some changes to eBay.com.au [ebay.com.au] that are going to make our marketplace an even safer place for you to buy and sell.

    These changes will be introduced in two stages:
    From 21 May you must offer PayPal on all your listings as well as currently permitted payment methods.

    From 17 June you will only be able to offer PayPal on your listings and pay on pick up (i.e.paid for when picking up the item).

    Pay on pick up can only be offered in conjunction with PayPal. No other payment methods will be permitted.
    A small number of exclusions [ebay.com.au] will apply to these changes.

    Get the lowdown on how these changes will affect you.
    "These changes may have some significant implications for how you trade on eBay.com.au, which is why we're organising a series of Q & A events to discuss them with you in person.

    Come along and hear from me about why eBay is making these changes. We'll have a number of eBay and PayPal staff available to answer your questions and explain the changes in more detail.
    We are also conducting a series of online workshops about the changes throughout April and May, so keep your eye on the announcement board for details."

    • Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Informative)

      by ranulf (182665) on Thursday April 10, @04:24AM (#23021840)
      Also, Ebay UK looks like they're not waiting for the results of the Australia experiment. From an e-mail from them this morning:

      Starting in late April, eBay will now ask all sellers to offer PayPal on their listings. This means that even more items on eBay will offer buyer protection.

      This is one of many new initiatives that eBay and PayPal are doing to make it much more difficult for bad sellers to operate on eBay. As a result, you'll notice a dramatic improvement in quality when buying on eBay.

      • Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Informative)

        by Bert64 (520050) <bert&slashdot,firenzee,com> on Thursday April 10, @04:36AM (#23021908) Homepage
        Except that many of the worst sellers actively use and are supported by paypal...

        See http://www.ev4.org/wordpress/category/fastmemorymanscam/ [ev4.org]

        Basically if you buy an item from a seller, and it's wrong, defective, etc, paypal will give you a refund but only if you ship it to the seller's "registered" address, using a shipping service with online tracking. Because of this, sellers can register an address in a foreign country, sell low value goods, ship you garbage, and then it becomes uneconomical to send it back so the seller keeps your money.

        Aside from the fact that that when selling something, i'd prefer *not* to use paypal, as i have to increase the cost of the item and shipping to cover paypal costs. I much prefer personal collection, i can demonstrate the item to prove it works, and i receive the full amount i sold the item for in cash.

    • Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Funny)

      by catwh0re (540371) on Thursday April 10, @04:52AM (#23021994)
      Hey ebay,
      It was nice hanging with you when we were younger, but since then I can feel we've grown our separate ways. I still remember our first dot com bubble burst like it was yesterday.

      But, sadly it seems that you're hanging out with a new crowd these days and you've changed, I can't put my finger on it, but you're somehow different. It seems like you don't really care about me anymore, and you don't seem to have coped very well with some of the new people in town. [ebay.com]
      I'm sorry to say it, after all of this time, but I'm seeing someone new [google.com] they're so much quicker and dealing with each individual companies policies still feels easier than dealing with your friend paypal.


      I'm sorry it couldn't work out between us.
      Signed,
      The Internet.

    • Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Insightful)

      by eiapoce (1049910) on Thursday April 10, @05:23AM (#23022142)
      Read as:
      "You have been giving already a lot of money to us. Nevertheless starting 17 june we want to get more money from you, just because we can.

      We are so confident that we don't even feel the need to justify it by adding the usual bullshit about security issues with other payments methods.

      Take note that the purpouse of these innovations is ultimately to fuck you, our loyal user, in the ass. So you are welcome to join us to discuss your "position" on our Q&A Forums where our dedicated masters will educate you (in bdsm techniques)

      For those of willing to submit without futile resistance we will grant some recreational activities including the online brainwashing course on how we did successfully turn a user supported community into a pyramidal scheme lookalike wich will benefit your ebay masters for a loong time"
      I guess it's not far away the time when google gets the slight hint of business opportunity.
  • Well, I guess its definitely time to look for an alternative, and pull my highly rated account from ebay :(

    I refuse to use paypal due to having bad experiences with it in the past.

    In Australia i'd say paypal for paying for ebay auctions is hardly use AT ALL since in Australia its far easier and quicker and cheaper to pay using direct deposit with netbanking. That is THE standard pay to pay here. Why use a middle man? And now to be FORCED to use one? I don't think so.
    • I no longer use my paypal account. After getting burned bad by paypal i was done. My paypal account was linked to my ebay account. My paypal account was emptied and left with a negative balance. Had i used ebay again paypal would have just took all the money. Remember people they are not a bank. They are just some people holding onto your money. How would you trust someone you dont know to hold your money?

      Maybe you think my story is isolated but read online. Paypal routinely freezes peoples accounts only to never let them have their money.

      Check out paypalsucks.com

      • Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (Score:5, Interesting)

        by johnw (3725) on Thursday April 10, @05:58AM (#23022256)
        The similarities between Paypal (not a bank) and eBay (not an auction house) are quite marked. They both seem to want to desperately defend there "not a ..." position because it means they can have the benefits without the responsibilities. Like so many others I have long refused to use Paypal because of their shifty behaviour. Until Paypal is a proper bank (with all the safeguards that that requires) and eBay admits to being an auction house (ditto) I won't be using either.

  • Legal status of Paypal? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kupfernigk (1190345) on Thursday April 10, @04:10AM (#23021766)
    I refuse to use Paypal because I am not convinced it is covered by banking regulations. These may not be perfect (understatement of year to date) but are surely better than nothing. Can anybody explain to me in what way entrusting funds to Paypal offers any real and accessible legal protection against fraud?

    • Re:Legal status of Paypal? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by edwardpickman (965122) on Thursday April 10, @04:24AM (#23021838)
      Don't worry they aren't covered under bank regulations and you are largely at their mercy since there aren't specific regulations covering them. I'm amazed the government has turned their back on them since they are functioning as a bank but are unregulated. They scare me and I've canceled my account several times but certain things require them already. I largely let the account stand inactive. If we loose other options with Ebay I'll probably drop them myself. The whole thing is so dodgy I haven't hardly bought anything on Ebay in years. It used to be pretty cool but I don't trust ebay, the buyers or sellers, I've been screwed by all of the above. Just not worth the hassle and risk.

    • Re:Legal status of Paypal? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Bashae (1250564) on Thursday April 10, @04:31AM (#23021874)
      When Paypal europe moved to Luxembourg last year, due to EU regulations it had to become subject to banking rules. More information here: http://www.finextra.com/fullstory.asp?id=16927 [finextra.com] I don't think it's a bank outside europe though.
  • From a sellers perspective I can see the desire to take other forms of payment, but as a buyer there is massive appeal for the use of PayPal. With how its integrated into eBay it makes conflict resolution much simpler and gives you a means of tracking and proving receipt of funds.

    The only thing I would want to see added to the service is an escrow option. But the idea of sending a wire transfer, check or money order to some unknown entity on the internet sounds like a bad idea.
        • Nope. If it were a bank, the merchant would pay for the loss or the bank will bear it.
          As banking laws go, once the money is in your account, nobody (except by court order) can debit your account except you.
          Nobody.
          Similarly, they can't suddenly block access to your account without informing you in writing.
          PayPal OTOH can debit your account and drain it fully and then refuse to explain why plus put you in call waiting.
            • Not exactly. When a credit card holder disputes a debit, the bank contacts the merchant first and asks him to verify the debit he made. It also gives the merchant details about who disputed what, etc, plus a specific time.
              Within the time, if the merchant cannot produce proof, the cardholder's complaint is sustained.

              At NO time has the bank the legal authority to debit or even block access to the funds in merchant's account.

              This is different from paypal, which is under no obligation to contact you, can and will block your account, and withdraw funds from it without due process.

              And that is why paypal is different from a bank.

        • What do you think would have happened if it had been purchased with a stolen credit card, check book, etc? Same thing.
          Bullshit. CC companies have insurances against fraud. Once you get the money it is yours. Only exception is that you participate in the scam, in this case you get a prison term, wich is something that paypal is NOT providing to the scammers.

  • Is Ebay out for suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mcrbids (148650) on Thursday April 10, @04:16AM (#23021788) Journal
    Ebay's success comes because it's a moderator - a broker in a sale. It connects two parties together, and nothing more. When it does that, Ebay is golden. It's UI is nice, it's search feature generally works, and that's why it's a multi-billion dollar corp.

    But if they cram paypal down my throat, I'll swallow something else. I'm already at the point where Ebay is my LAST resort, since their ratings have been so thoroughly gamed I have no idea who I'm really dealing with, anymore.

    Forcing paypal? No way. I refuse. What's the next halfway decent auction house? Truthfully, I've already moved much of my online purchasing to froogle.com....

  • Competition laws (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mikechant (729173) on Thursday April 10, @04:22AM (#23021824)
    If successful, eBay will roll it out to other markets.

    If they roll it out in the EU, this could fall foul of competition laws; the credit card companies/banks could presumably complain of being shut out, given Ebay's near total dominance.

    (Obvious the same could apply in other countries, but the EU currently seems keenest on actually enforcing competition laws.)

  • If its mandatory it should be free (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Chrisq (894406) on Thursday April 10, @04:25AM (#23021844)
    If its mandatory, make it free (for use on payment for ebay items, charging for other uses is OK). How can they justify a double charge?

  • Of course.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nitelord (824762) on Thursday April 10, @04:32AM (#23021878)
    "If successful, eBay will roll it out to other markets." Of course they'll be successful, all other modes of payment are barred!

  • Not just Australia (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mattbee (17533) <matthew@bytemark.co.uk> on Thursday April 10, @04:38AM (#23021914) Homepage
    In the UK (3x as many people as Australia) I got an email to say that Paypal *must* be offered as a payment option, not that it must be the only payment option. So I imagine they are testing different policies in different smaller markets. It makes sense to try to streamline it and get a few more % of each sale - eBay is still complicated compared to Amazon's sales process and Amazon seem to get away with taking almost 10%.

  • hmmm. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by apodyopsis (1048476) on Thursday April 10, @04:40AM (#23021924)
    blam! the sound of eBay shooting itself in the foot.

    as a buyer paypal has some good points - limited protection, traceability, etc.

    but as a seller it sucks big time as just adds another set of fees to your sale.

    eBay nicks nearly 5-10% of the sale price including paypal.

    if they made paypal free and just part of the eBay service then there might not be so many arguments, but to enforce it and then make additional money is such a blatent money grab that this will backfire big time.

    buyers may like it, but if there are no sellers then there will be no buyers. it will be interested to watch how the number of items for sale changes in ebay.au after this is enforced. anybody know how we can plot a graph of items for sale vs. date to track the impact?

    I'm guessing that there will be such a negative impact in .au that they will not dare make the same change to .com .co.uk etc.

    from eBays point of view they are being pressurized to add more traceability into their system by law enforcement worried about fraud and fencing - so they are really between a rock and a hard place here.

    one thing is certain - behind every internet giant is a number if "would bes" who will seize every opportunity to steal business, so eBay will have to tread carefully here.

  • ACCC can determine this is anti-competitive (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ivi (126837) on Thursday April 10, @04:43AM (#23021934)
    Doesn't eBay -own- PayPal...?!?

    Well, forcing your customers to use your subsidiary company (or any supplier, for that matter) sounds pretty anti-competitive to me... and - if the Aussie comtetition watchdog barks loudly enough, eBay may have to play fair again.

    I'm sure credit card vendors will scream "Fowl!" soon...

  • Isnt this a violation of competition laws? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jonwil (467024) on Thursday April 10, @05:18AM (#23022118)
    How is this NOT a violation of the trade practices act?
    Anyone know the right way to get the ACCC to investigate this?

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