Comparing Firefox 3 With Opera 9.5 On Linux 489
Joe Barr writes "Mayank Sharma has two recent stories on Linux.com; one evaluating the performance of Firefox 3, and the second comparing it to Opera 9.5. Which is better? For most people, it's probably more a matter of familiarity or personal preference, but these stories provide hard performance data to consider as well. Sharma notes, 'In terms of rendering JavaScript, Firefox 3 had the edge over Opera 9.5 in the SunSpider JavaScript Benchmark, which has an error range between +/-0.8% to +/-11.3% depending on the type of test. In the JavScript Engine speed test, Opera 9.5 scores over its peers when it comes to error handling, DOM, and AJAX.'"
Slashdot shares a corporate overlord with Linux.com.
First post... (Score:5, Funny)
I was using Lynx!
Re: (Score:2)
I prefer links :-)
Re:First post... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:First post... (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know what middle-click menu you're talking about, and the find functionality works fine for me, so it may be a bug specific to your system. How are the developers supposed know there's a problem if you don't tell them about it?
Choice is a Good Thing (Score:4, Interesting)
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To the best of my knowledge there's never been a monopoly on Linux/UNIX web browsers. I think at one point Mozilla dominated, but it's never been like Windows.
Also: KHTML, Opera, and Firefox/Gecko are only three. Unless you're including ones based on those and/or text only browsers?
Re:Choice is a Good Thing (Score:5, Funny)
The fourth is an underpowered and little used browser called Internet Explorer [spacesurfer.com]. I'm not really surprised you haven't heard of it; it's rarely used on Linux at all, for good reasons.
Re:Choice is a Good Thing (Score:5, Funny)
You said "four GOOD browsers".
(Slow down, cowboy! It's been twelve hours since you last posted a comment.)
Re:Choice is a Good Thing (Score:5, Funny)
The four GOOD browsers:
Links, Lynx, wget, curl.
Re:Choice is a Good Thing (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Choice is a Good Thing (Score:4, Informative)
What, no w3m?
In all seriousness, I've been stuck without X a few times (for several weeks at a time), and w3m blows all other text-based browsers out of the water. I used to like links, but w3m has spoiled me too much...
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When I'm stuck without X, I like the web browsers, but honestly, what has more often saved me is irssi. This being because when I am stuck without X, usually my first priority is to regain X.
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You forgot netcat. ;-)
Re:Choice is a Good Thing (Score:4, Funny)
You forgot the best one of all: telnet.
It's one thing to have it all INTERPRETED for you. It's another thing to see things in native code.
There's way too much information to decode the Internet. You get used to it, though. Your brain does the translating. I don't even see the code. All I see is blonde, brunette, redhead.
Wait till you actually view your Porn Flash video as an ASCII-presented binary!
GET /midgetswithwidgets.flv HTTP/1.0\n\n
Baby! You aren't a natural red-head, are you?
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Elinks, elinks, elinks, and...
python -c "print __import__('urllib2').urlopen('$URL').read()"
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Opera.
When viewing pictures in an image gallery (warning: rather NSFW... that was the first link on The Hun that was obviously images) [teenagedecadence.com], the fast-forward button on the toolbar automatically changes to a mode that steps through the images in the gallery one by one. In short: one-handed browsing without having to move the mouse much.
Re:Choice is a Good Thing (Score:4, Informative)
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Yes, I'm afraid market share still rules - and Opera still barely moves the needle for reasons unfathomable to me. I used early versions and liked it a lot. I switched to FF only because I have an overwhelmingly strong preference for libre software.
However, with Apple making significant inroads into the PC marketplace, Safari is slowly becoming a significant player. And if web developers eventually have to code for three browsers, they might as well just go ahead and use the standards - and we all win.
Opea is awesome! (Score:2, Insightful)
I've used Opera for more than two and half years on Windows and Linux. It is hands down the best browser and the most useful cross platform program available, for a variety of reasons.
9.5 is fine, once you move the New Tab button back to its rightful place on the LEFT!
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Mod parent up!
Re:Opera is awesome! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Opera is awesome! (Score:5, Funny)
Both Firefox and Opera?
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Re:Opera is awesome! (Score:4, Insightful)
BAH! Who uses the keyboard anymore? It's hold right-click, move down, let-go. Mouse gestures all the way, baby!!!
But what about plug-ins such as Flash? (Score:4, Interesting)
The real challenge/merit is whether Opera 9.5 is accepted by webpages as being able to display all the content correctly, rather than insisting a component isn't there and demanding its download only to be told it's still not there.
That's my complaint about the last version or two of Opera (and I've been using it since 3.5), that I wind up having to break out IE or FF for some pages because just being adherent to the HTML 4 standard isn't enough of a claim anymore.
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RightClick, Edit Site Preferences
[Network] Tab:
Browser Identification:
MASK as FireFox | MASK as Internet Explorer
Which is different than just "Identify as..."
Re:But what about plug-ins such as Flash? (Score:4, Insightful)
Just remember to switch it back when you don't need the option anymore, otherwise you are contributing to the various Browser Market Share/User Share statistics with wrong info.
I try to avoid using that, because then when some web admin looks at the logs, he'll see a slanted perspective of how many users are using which web browser, and just continuing the problem - "meh, not enough Opera users to really bother fixing it"
Re:But what about plug-ins such as Flash? (Score:5, Informative)
You can enable it on a per-site basis.
Honestly, if a site is designed to tell you that it won't allow use of a browser that can render it perfectly, it is one developed by people who obviously didn't even bother to test the functionality of the site under those other browsers. Developers who are that lazy aren't going to look at weblogs and give a damn about removing meaningless browser restrictions.
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"My browser is fully capable of displaying your content, but I am unable to do so due to your restricted access. Please tell your overlords to consider using web standards, and checking compatibility at www.w3.org, so that users of all browsers and OSes will have access."
Except replace "overloards" with whatever term best fits depending on your mood and the site, like monkeys, poopfaces, or
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No, I have honestly seen people argue that it's not worth supporting anything but Internet Explorer because all of their users use Internet Explorer, when the reason all of their users use Internet Explorer is because the site in question is Internet Explorer-only by design or has massive bugs in other browsers. It's less about a lazy attitude and more about a stupid, head-in-t
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Can this be set per-site? I know I can do the user-agent per-site, at least, in Konqueror.
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load gmail! (Score:2)
I've never had the chance to use opera, but I'd consider switching if I knew it would load Gmail properly. ARgh! Firefox 3 STILL requires you to occasionally delete all cookies, cache, forms, etc. for gmail to load proper.
And don't tell me "all you have to do is select 'clear private data' and it loads fine." Sure that works for 2 or 3 days max, then you gmail starts screwing up again. "Just clear your private data" is a temporary fix AT BEST. It's really annoying to have to wait while all my sites re-
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I've used Gmail (and Google Calendar and reader etc) with Firefox on Linux for some years and never ever had a problem that required what you describe. Perhaps you want to be a bit more specific about the problem or post some links to other reports like it. Otherwise......
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You know, I have a feeling it's "on your end". I can't offer a solution, but I can offer my own anecdotal evidence. I've been using GMail daily (and often several times daily) since the early betas of the service. I have never once had to delete cookies or cache to make GMail load - it's loaded every time for me, just fine.
Now, my mother (50+ computer luddite) uses GMail as well, and gets the problem "You know, it doesn't come up, and I have to go back and click it again, but usually I have to type in 'gmai
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I'm not sure what you mean by "proper" but ive never had any problems with GMail on Opera.
(waits for FireFox to load)
Ok, so the only differences I found were:
Opera just has the [Loading...] box, whereas FireFox has the username@gmail.com with a progress bar...
second, the (select all / none / etc) appears above the [Archive/Report Spam/Delete] buttons at the bottom of the page, but Opera has it underneath like it is at the top of the email list...
FF3 Vs. Opera 9.51
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Re:load gmail! (Score:5, Informative)
Opera loads old version of GMail and that works fine, if you want the new version you need to navigate to this link: https://mail.google.com/mail/?nocheckbrowser [google.com] (which also works fine in Opera)
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What are you talking about? I've been using Gmail with Firefox for years without ever having a problem that sounds even remotely like what you're describing...
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Gmail specifically targets browsers -- it "compiles" different versions of the page (and the javascript) from the original Java source in a different way for each supported browser, and then the proper "compiled" version is selected based on user-agent.
Given that, unless Opera is explicitly targeted by Google, good luck. Despite Safari being more or less supported, I believe Konqueror does best when identifying as Firefox... weird.
Easy. (Score:2, Insightful)
They're similarly capable, but Firefox is FOSS. Win.
Re:Easy. (Score:5, Informative)
Frankly, with as many features Firefox has copied from Opera, it'd better be good. Don't get me wrong here, I love FF, but there's no denying that some of their "latest greatest" features are ripped straight from Opera.
If Opera was FOSS, the Firefox team wouldn't have had to write nearly as much code. (insert smiley for people who will inevitably think this is completely serious)
"copying" (Score:2, Insightful)
You're implying that Firefox is somehow inferior to Opera (or that their devs are somehow inferior to Opera's devs) because they "copied" features from them. I'm really tired of that sentiment.
If fridge manufacturer A came up with this revolutionary technology ("not only can it make ice, it can make iced COFFEE!" or some other stupid idea like that), and if fridge manufacturer B likes the idea and puts it into their own fridges (let's put patents aside for the moment), is it still inferior?
This applies not
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Opera loads faster, GUI is more responsive, many people don't care about the license... for them Opera is a better choice.
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Most people also don't care about security. I do, so I use Firefox with NoScript.
Re:Easy. (Score:5, Informative)
Opera can disable scripts per page or globally, and you don't need a plugin to do that.
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Can you tell me how or link to a page that does? Last time I asked I was recommended I use some proxy software which was anything but as easy as NoScript.
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That's nowhere near the functionality of NoScript. On this page there are 3 JavaScripts that want to run, but I'm only running 1 of them (the slashdot one).
Also wasn't the awesome bar suppose to be stolen from Opera as well? If so, where is it?
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True. Very True.
Opera 9.5 is the fastest browser i have seen.
Firefox has features, but speed belongs to Opera.
Plus Opera never crashes.
Firefox 3.0 crashed two times in two days,
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They're similarly capable, but Firefox is FOSS
So? Opera has been free (as in beer) for a long time now, and the guys developing it actually made an excellent work of porting it to several OSs/architectures; it works as good and snappy on Windows, Linux and MacOS. It's small, very fast, rock stable and packed with a lot of useful features (a.k.a, not bloat). FF3 is very nice on its own too, yes, but the more competition the merrier. What's not to like?
People dissing Opera because it's not FOSS are missing on
Opera screen real estate vs Firefox (Score:5, Informative)
I've been organizing the bars like that since I started using FF, and I find it makes for much better use of that space than just a gray, blank area.
Re:Opera screen real estate vs Firefox (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Opera screen real estate vs Firefox (Score:5, Informative)
There's a back button, forward button and an addressbar next to help. Not technically what you said but close enough that it shouldn't matter. Probably technically cheating aswell as it's not the 'real' menu bar.
You're right that you can't put stuff in the menu bar in Opera though, and you should be able to. It is a waste of screen space. In order to make that screenshot (without manipulation), I used the custom buttons page on http://operawiki.info/CustomButtons [operawiki.info] to add each of those menu items to the "Main Bar" (after clearing it), then I added the back button and decided to go a step further and add the address bar and forward. I had already used the toggle menu bar custom button to hide the actual "Menu Bar" (I normally don't have a menu bar even, the panel is enough).
If you look closely I have the entire main menu as a button in the tab bar (labeled "Menu" with a black arrow next to it). If I click that I'll get a menu with all the main menu bar items in it. Over on the right I have a view button which will display the "view bar" where I've hidden the menu toggle button.
I could have combined everything on the menu into the tab bar instead but it wouldn't have looked like the main menu colorwise. I could have everything in one bar like the great-grandparent has in their firefox screenshot. Less than their screenshot even if I put everything in the tab bar instead of a seperate one.
Also there is a panel toggle on the left of the screen. I typically don't use the main menu except for the File-> Import/Export menu options so hiding the entire thing makes sense since all bookmarks, history, widgets, mail and newsfeeds are available in the side panel and most settings are accessible via keyboard the shortcuts F12+none, ctrl, shift.
If you really want to get bitchy about wasted space you could put all the menu options, the addressbar and everything normally in a toolbar into a custom panel and get rid of every bar (even the tab bar if you want) and just have the panel toggle at the edge of the screen. Hide it when you don't need it. You can't get much less wasted space unless you changed the theme for your desktop to use less space for the window decorations (I think that would be going a little far). The entire window would be space for the page except for the small scrollbar on one side and the panel toggle on the other (not necessary with keyboard shortcuts).
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So I have to grant a small point to Firefox for UI configurability. I still prefer Opera's look overall, though.
Tip for you to save more space, though- get rid of the Google bar and just set up a search shortcut.
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So is Opera.
I've gotten used to Opera's changeability so much that I can't stand using a browser where the tabs are on top. The bottom is a _much_ better place for the tab bar. Opera lets me do that. Firefox doesn't.
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Re:Opera screen real estate vs Firefox (Score:5, Informative)
Excluding the Menu Bar (Opera uses the standard/forced top one) Opera can do that aswell, you can drag/drop any button/checkbox/dropdown/etc to any other bar (excluding the main side panel buttons)
You can also quicky drag a webpage, or an image onto a toolbar, to create a temporary "favorite" of sorts... its not particularily useful, but ive used it, mainly so i dont accidentally close the tab.
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Oh I know, already have my own custom version, plus I have the Main menu under the right-click Context menu...
But I didn't wanna have to explain all that to someone who isn't even familiar with the basics of the Opera layout.
And now with 9.5x I can do away with an entire toolbar by just moving a few things to the status bar since stuff gets scaled to 80% there, instead of increasing the status bar size to encompass the added button/item...
Re:Opera screen real estate vs Firefox (Score:5, Informative)
Firefox has been able to do this for ages. In fact it gives you a menu with all the recently closed tabs and you can pick which one you want to restore.
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I have mine almost exactly the same (forward/back, reload and stop are on the left of the location bar with home removed completely while I have kept my bookmarks bar below it). I sometimes forget this isn't the default GUI for Firefox.
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The thing I like about Firefox is how changeable it is:
Screenshot [imagevenue.com]
I've been organizing the bars like that since I started using FF, and I find it makes for much better use of that space than just a gray, blank area.
Agreed, I hate wasted screen real estate:
http://www.dotancohen.com/images/examples/firefox.png [dotancohen.com]
Notice that the File | Edit menu has been collapsed into a single root menu on the right (My language goes from right to left, sorry). The Google search box is gone (I can google directly from the aweso^W location bar) and the tabs are on the side. Perfect for making use of this widescreen monitor's unusual geometry, which means that half the horizontal space usually goes to waste yet there is never enough vertica
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You should look into Personalize Menu, or if someone has updated it for FF3, "Tiny Menu".
Both of these collapse that large list of menu entries into one icon that then has File Edit View etc as submenus.
Personalize Menu even lets you configure the menu so you can put the things you actually use where you'll get to them easily.
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Pretty good (Score:4, Interesting)
I gave Opera 9.5 a whirl last week and was highly impressed. It's packed with nice features (Where do you think Firefox and IE get most of their ideas?) but still pretty fast and light. Other versions of Opera never did much for me, but this is the first proprietary application that I've run across in a long time that I would seriously consider using on a daily basis. The only areas where it's really lacking are modularity (extensions, instead of everything being built-in to the browser) and of course the fact that it's not free software.
My priority is not speed (Score:3, Interesting)
The fact that most of my extensions are un-installable in the latest version did not help matters.
This made me wonder...Why haven't the coders ported these extensions to Firefox 3.0 if it has been in development for a long time?
I also thought I would be in position to play live CNN streams but I was wrong! Firefox plays the commercial OK but will display a balck screen with sound when it comes to the actual content! Not good enough.
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Did you let your favorite site authors know that they're driving away business by restricting he browsers people can use to access their sites?
Re:My priority is not speed (Score:4, Insightful)
That's an elephant in the room that nobody seems to want to talk about. If you are praising extensions, then apparently it's a huge advantage Firefox has over other browsers, but if you are complaining about extensions, then they are all third-party developers that have nothing to do with Firefox. It's a win-win for Mozilla - all of the credit, none of the blame.
This is never more apparent than when a new major version of Firefox is released. Mozilla break compatibility and wash their hands of the mess, and if the extensions you use aren't maintained any more, then, well, tough.
The most useful JavaScript performance parameter (Score:2)
I didn't see anything about the one JavaScript feature I use more than anything else in Firefox: the ability to turn it off selectively (via the noScript extension, so one could argue that it isn't in Firefox at all, of course). Useful as JavaScript is, the way it is used to sneak adverts and other unwanted stuff on to your browser can sometimes make a website useless - at least to me.
I wouldn't be on the Web at all without it. I wonder how many depend on it the same way.
Re:The most useful JavaScript performance paramete (Score:2)
I love NoScript. Browsing without it is painful. That being said, if it (and everything like it) didn't exist, I would still browse the web. But I wouldn't have flash installed.
Sounds good but how about actual usage (Score:2, Troll)
I run both Opera and FireFox however Opera never FEELS faster to me. Perhaps it is the default settings, or perhaps the sites I go to Gmail, Gcal, Slashdot, etc, all feel a lot faster in FireFox.
Also, FireFox feels easier to use.
And then, FireFox has all of the plugins I now love, and can't get rid of.
Opera is doing good, but they need to focus on their target markets needs over their speed or standards compliance.
mis-match (Score:5, Interesting)
But Opera 9.5 is no less revolutionary than Firefox, matching its open source rival feature for feature,
That should be:
But Firefox is no less revolutionary than Opera, matching its proprietary rival feature for feature
Do we really need to break out the list of things that Opera developed that are now taken for granted by other browsers?
Opera 9.5 is a good browser (Score:5, Informative)
Yet Opera 6.5 runs GOOD, whether Firefox 3 won't run or just takes ages to start. Only/main advantage of FF is that it's customisable, with all the addons to 'improve the browsing-experience'.
I really appreciate OSS but at the moment Opera is the best browser for my older machines. My 2 cents.
The one thing that gets me... (Score:4, Interesting)
Opera mem leaks when you use flash =/ (Score:3, Interesting)
And yes I will be filing a bug report.
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Re:awesome bar = f u bar (Score:5, Informative)
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Simple way to disable the horrible "awesome bar"
about:config
browser.urlbar.maxRichResults = 0
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The fact that you have to download a third-party add-on to even resemble the original functionality shows how little respect the Mozilla Corporation has for its users.
Firefox without extensions is ridiculously barebones. I'm glad I'm an Opera user.
Speaking of stuff that's not in stock Firefox, one of the things about Opera I almost can't do without is Tools->Quick Preferences->Edit Site Preferences. So bloody useful. Oh, and the Cookie Manager in the regular preferences dialog is pretty awesome too.
You can open the Quick Preferences with F12.
That way it's just Quick Preferences->Edit Site Preferences
That way you don't have to navigate through so many menus.
I rarely ever use the menu as the panel or various shortcuts provide the same function (Ctrl-F12 for Preferences, Shift-F12 for Appearance, etc).
Nice thing is that I can completely eliminate the menubar from the application, saving even more space vs Firefox. All I have currently is the tab bar and the URL bar.
Re:awesome bar = f u bar (Score:5, Insightful)
Replacing old features with new ones has nothing to do with lacking respect for users, it's about trying to improve the user experience. Not everybody is going to like them, sure; that's true of just about any change you make. The fact that it's possible to download an extension and get pretty close to the behavior people complain they no longer have isn't a strike against Firefox, it's a sign of the robustness of the extensions and community. Apparently extensions aren't permitted to drill so deeply into the core browser that they can change how things are looked up--at least I assume that's why the extension isn't quite the old behavior. That may be good or bad depending on your perspective, but it's certainly safer.
More to the point, most of the posts seem to be: "I just downloaded Firefox and I fucking hate this new address bar!@" I thought we were supposed to be reasonable people here? What happened to giving something a chance before you spit on it and declare Mozilla to be disrespectful of its users for ever having implemented it? For that matter, if these people ever bother to actually give details about what they don't like about it it seems to be basically the order it's returning the results. For example, lots of people complain that typing "en" is no longer bringing up "en.wikipedia.org" as their first result. For one thing, this behavior can be mirror even more closely with a configuration option. It's not in the GUI; bitch about that if you want, but it's there. Beyond that, it's simply more proof that they haven't bothered to give it a chance. The search results are adaptive. The more you type "en" and select "en.wikipedia.org," the more it learns that's what you want. Sounds like a feature to me. All it takes is patience, but clearly most people have none and would prefer to rant about it on forums like this one.
Or bloated, depending on who around here you ask. That alone should clue you in that it's nothing more than a matter of perspective. But let's play along and say you're right. All that goes to show is that there are two camps with regard to things like this: One who believes the best stuff should be merged in or included by default with the browser, and one that believes the browser core should stay as lean as possible and let this functionality be done with add-ons. Opera tends to the former, and Firefox is a bit of a hybrid but tends to the latter. So what? If you really can't be bothered to customize things to your liking, that's fine--use Opera or whatever else you find that suits you. That's really what it's all about in the end. That doesn't mean that the alternate perspective is wrong, though.
Well, you're certainly free to use whichever browser you prefer for whatever reasons you prefer it--I just hope you have better reasons than "default Firefox is barebones," which seems to be all you said here. That smells a bit too much of zealotry to me. At the end of the day I guess it doesn't even matter what it is. *shrugs*
Anyone who's done any work with end-users.. (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, if you throw in too many of these you can simply kiss your user base good-bye..
I'll keeps on trying to get used to the awesome (??!) bar but I'm sure as I type this SOMEONE is creating a brand new shiny add-on to *truly* revert the behavior for those who feel the need it (oss, beauty eh?)..
I applaud the developers for the innovat
Re:awesome bar = f u bar (Score:5, Funny)
Dev 1: Man, what should we call the new multifunction search-address bar?
Dev 2: I dunno, I've been calling it the "awesome bar" in the code.
Dev 1: Damn that's stupid.
Dev 2: Yeah I know, but I can't think of anything better.
Dev 1: Me either, just leave it for now.
And then, over time, everyone just got used to calling it that, and it ended up released that way.
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Am I the only one who thinks of this picture every time I hear "Awesome Bar"? It just seems like one of those things that was a placeholder name that never got changed.
Reminds me of 'OS/2 Warp'. Ugh. I'm not sure which company was more stupid - IBM not knowing what to do with OS/2, or Commodore not knowing what to do with the Amiga. *sigh*
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I initially read this as momentarily. Perhaps this is more accurate?
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Firefox 1.8???? (Score:2)
Re:awesome bar = f u bar (Score:5, Informative)
Here's the best example I can think of for this awesome feature.
1) Go to this page in a new tab [myth-weavers.com]
2) Now close that tab.
3) In a new tab start typing "Warlord Tiefling" in the location bar.
4) Notice how a link is coming up and how it is highlighting the word as you type it. But if you select it and hit enter, you'll see that the words "Tiefling Warlord" do not appear in the URL.
This is the awesomeness of the awesome bar. It doesn't just search the URL of your history and bookmarks, it searches the page title as well! So while trying to remember the URL for the Warlord Tiefling page would be impossible, the awesome bar means you don't have to.
Re:awesome bar = f u bar (Score:4, Informative)
Opera's awesome bar goes a step further, not only does it search the URLs and the titles of your history, but also the content. If I type Warlord Tiefling in Opera 9.5's address bar, I get this page as one of the results, because you motioned it, aussie_a.
Would that be more of an OS function? (Score:2)
I ask because I honestly don't know, but in Windows, Firefox uses the same font settings as the system. If I change the Windows' option, everything changes with it, including Firefox. This is because, near as I can tell, Windows is giving all the fonts to FF anyhow. It looks ever so slightly different on Vista, as does everything since Vista has a slightly tweaked font anti-aliasing engine.
Is that not how it works on Linux?
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What version are you using? I'm using it right now on an Ubuntu 8.04 laptop with absolutely no issues.
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I myself doubt that any browser behaves that way, but there are a lot of people who are paranoid about the internet, and I don't see their concerns as particularly invalid.
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The easiest thing to do is to use the Ubuntu software repository, but its only as up-to-date as the people who update it, which can be slower then the people who update the actual software.
Re:Easy Install (Score:4, Informative)
Not easy? Okay, so it has "extract" in there, but it's basically the same as a Mac:
Mac: dump application file in location, run application.
Firefox/Linux (since they mention tarball): extract application in location, run application.
Okay, so they used a couple of techie words, but it's not exactly rocket-science (or even make scripts) to use it.