GM, Utilities Partner To Advance Plug-In Hybrids

chareverie writes "General Motors is forming a team with utility companies nationwide to create a charging infrastructure for electric cars. Their goal is to improve the design of charging stations — making them weatherproof and child-proof, for example — in locations such as public garages, meters, and parking lots. They're also working on ways to avoid overwhelming the utilities during peak hours. Their goal is to have these improved charging stations implemented by 2010, when the Chevy Volt is introduced. Everyone recognizes however that a national car-charging infrastructure would be far from complete at that time."

We do.

Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?

With GMs luck.

The volt will come out just in time for Oil to hit $45 a barrel.

Re:With GMs luck.

If the Volt is everything it is rumored to be, I would buy it even if gas were back down at 50 cents a gallon. The reasons are simple: not only is it better for the environment, but it requires far less (maybe even none depending on how you drive) of a non-renewable resource like oil. So long as oil remains a non-renewable resource, any dips in price will be strictly temporary.

I would hope that at least some of us have learned our lesson from this most recent fuel crisis: oil is simply not a sustainable way to get our energy over the long term.

Re:With GMs luck.

... The reasons are simple: not only is it better for the environment, but it requires far less (maybe even none depending on how you drive) of a non-renewable resource like oil.

Neither of those is a decent reason in the face of hydrocarbon alternatives. Here's a good reason even with them:

Electric cars are simpler and more reliable than internal combustion cars, and will cost less for the same utility.

Re:With GMs luck.

Sure, which is why we need to invest in renewable alternatives for large-scale power production. Getting the non-renewable fuels out of our cars is one step in the process, getting them out of our power plants is another step. Just because we haven't perfected the second step yet doesn't mean we should not be trying to solve the first step.

The Volt, as advertised, is a big step in the right direction. It is not the whole solution, but it's at least getting us on our way to part of the solution, which is better than what we've got so far.

Re:With GMs luck.

If you live in the US. In Quebec, almost all power is hydro. Ontario is a mix of nuclear, hydro, and coal. Many places in the US also use nuclear. France is almost completely nuclear. While nuclear is not 'renewable' it's at least not pumping out CO2 and smog.

Re:With GMs luck.

No, just weapons-grade spent uranium. That's all...

Not unless you reprocess it. Good luck making a bomb using an old fuel rod.

Re:With GMs luck.

I don't know where you live, but where _I_ live, most power is either coal, hydro, or nuclear.

I checked the US as well, oil was the source of only 3% of the nation's power in 2005.

http://www.teachengineering.com/collection/cub_/lessons/cub_images/cub_earth_lesson08_figure5.jpg [teachengineering.com]

Re:With GMs luck.

Even better, use hydraulic hybrids instead of these expensive batteries that are a bear to recycle.

I thought that GM tried and gave up on hydraulic hybrids?

One last point, won't charging a bunch of cars require all of the coal plants to go into overdrive?

Yes, but coal doesn't come from the Middle East, is a more efficient way to produce energy than burning gas in an internal combustion engine, is centralized and easier to scrub the emissions, and can be replaced by a different source in the future.

Re:With GMs luck.

For your last point, my understanding is that you need to think about it in terms of point-source pollution. It's easier to mitigate 1000 pounds of pollution from one source than it is to mitigate 1 pound of pollution from 1000 sources.

Re:With GMs luck.

They are going to use LI/ION so they are not a bear to recycle.
Most of the charging hopefully will be done at nite and not at peak. A lot power is wasted while base load plants are just idling.

Finally even if they are using coal there should still be a savings. Modern coal plants pollute less than a car per unit of energy.
Of course if you are on a nuke or hydro then you are even better off.

That being said I am not a big fan of hybrids but they are not as bad as you might think.

Remember Kids:

You'll need a GM Certified "Super VOLT-adapter" for just $499.99 for any non-VOLT electric car to use this grid. (Licensing and Taxes may apply, adapter not sold in California or Alaska).

Super Capacitors.

The biggest barrier to pure electrics right now is the time it takes to charge a vehicle.

Super Capacitors are supposed to change that by allowing charge times equivalent or less than the time spent at the petrol pump.

Last time I heard about them was early this year as they were seeking to scale them to the industrial level.

That technology is what will make electric cars "feasible"

Time for government to step in

Just as Eisenhower signed off on the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act to kickstart the roads system in the US so too should the government act to fund this.

We have to go electric in the future, gas power isn't a viable long term solution and oil is going to be too valuable in the future to waste on driving around. But the 'free market' isn't going to fund the kind of network we need in the short term. Sure, they'll build the cars but infrastructure costs are beyond them.

Without a national infrastructure program the move towards electric transportation will be slow and patchy. This really is a case of if we build it they will come.

Quick charge is all I want...

I just read an article about the Lightning electric vehicle on elReg

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/22/lightning_fast_charge_supercar/ [theregister.co.uk]

This may make electric cars practical.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7081 [newscientist.com]
Imagine: 200 miles/charge and a 10 minute "fill up" at a commercial charging station (overnight at your house with 50 amp service)

I'd much prefer this over the "hydrogen economy" that people tout as the future. Also, it would be easier to build out a high voltage charging infrastructure than a hydrogen dispensing infrastructure. The only problem I see is everyone charging their vehicles during peak usage instead of at night causing even greater peaks, but there is no reason people (with garages) can't trickle-charge the car at night.

I may even give up my venerable diesel if I can drive coast to coast in the same time frame and same expense on batteries as on diesel.
(only slightly off topic because I was talking electric vehicles instead of hybrid)

All they need to work on next

Is making GM cars not TEH SUCK.

Just imagine, a Electric Cavalier, sweet!!!

If it leads to a standard then I am all for it.

If it leads to a proprietary method which other automakers and utilities must license with fees then I am hoping someone else comes along and whacks them.

I still think while we are doing our typical over reaction; c'mon Europeans put up with prices higher than this; at least this over reaction is leading somewhere good. Granted it may mean life with even more SUVs as the technology will make their mileage acceptable. Since the majority of SUV/CUV don't do any heavy towing it can easily be adapted to their increased carrying capacities.

I guess giving up the "frivolous" luxuries was too much to ask

Re:Would a plugin hybrid actually save money?

Yes, but 90% of the energy from gasoline ends up as heat, not in moving the car. Electric motors have much higher efficiencies.

Re:Would a plugin hybrid actually save money?

Of course, this leaves out difference in conversion efficiency of gas v.s. electricity.

That is a pretty big glossing over of the realities, especially since the efficiency of a gasoline powered ICE is around 18% [washington.edu] - not including additional losses in the transmission.

Re:Would a plugin hybrid actually save money?

Congratulations, you just compared the retail cost of electricity to the retail cost of gasoline. Retail prices are set by demand, and WOW, you discovered that the demand for electrical energy is pretty close to the demand for automative fuel energy. So Brand X is priced in line with Brand Y.

Which proves nothing.

And more importantly, it already effectively INCLUDES the conversion efficiencies of both gas and electricity, as it is the retail price, which is based on final use, not creation.

If you were talking about creation costs, that would be a different story.

Most importantly, there are areas in the US where electiricty costs as little as 6.24 cents instead of 10, and other places where it costs as much as 14.31 cents.

But most importantly, all those numbers are based on getting the electiricity at peak times (noon). Smart utilities offer discounts to those that buy from midnight to 6 AM, which would be the most intelligent time to charge your vehicle.

Re:What Charging Infrastructure?

Very, very few people will pay new-car prices for a car that will go 150 miles then require a 3-hour recharge...

Back in the late 20th century the EV1 [wikipedia.org] had a waiting list.

Re:What Charging Infrastructure?

OK, first, the Volt is larger than the Prius, faster, has better acceleration, and will only cost a couple grand more, easily saved on the back end with infinite MPG on trips shorter than 60 miles, and at 60-80MPG when running on the engine. Electric costs are increasing, but at a fraction of the rate of oil, and electric power is renewable (or at least, the renewable portion is increasing, and can eventually be 100% of energy used).

The lack of electric cars on the market? mostly, we've been waiting for slightly better CPUs to run the car on, and improved energy to weight ratios in the batteries. Li-Ion by itself could have done this, if it wasn't for the potential of catistrofic cell collape (aka, battery explodes). Li-Polymer, and Li-Tit batteries just recently developed do not have this problem, and additional safteys with on-battery chip technology further improve saftey.

Also, 2-3 hours is no longer an issue. Li-Tit batteries charge to 80% in 3 minutes, 100% in less than 10. A simple 3 phase 400 amp connection is required (available at almost any auto shop). Don't believe the hype about how much the cable weights for these either, look at the cable on an electric welder; same cable...

Sure, at home, 3-4 hours will be the norm, 8-10 on 110 volt outlets. Of course, saince the car will have a gas backup, and can go 360 miles on 10 gallons of gas AFTER the battery dies, who cares? On a side note, if you popped for the upgrade to rapid charge at home, hooking up a 220 volt 100 AMP cable, you can actually run your HOUSE off of your CAR in the event of a power failure, without needing a generator, for 3-5 hours, or just your fridge and AC for about a day.

People DO want them. Patents, mostly, and a few technical hurdles were standing in the way. I WILL pay 30K for a car that gets the USD converted electrical equivolent of 150MPG average for my driving habits and takes 3 minutes to recharge.

DO RESEARCH BEFORE SPREADING FUD NEXT TIME!

Re:What Charging Infrastructure?

Very, very few people will pay new-car prices for a car that will go 150 miles then require a 3-hour recharge.

Yeah, because my friends and I all drive more than 150 miles every day.

Right. And all those people had to have SUVs because of all the off-roading they do.

What people need doesn't enter into it.

Re:What Charging Infrastructure?

I don't drive 150 most days, but I DO drive 150+ miles SOME days. And since I can't afford two cars, my one car needs to be able to go as far as I need to go, including vacation trips.

Re:Home outlet?

All you need for this is an electrical outlet at home.

This to me is one of the biggest obstacles to our plug-in future. Those of you who live in the 'burbs where everybody has their own two-car garage may be shocked to hear this, but millions of us live in urban areas where we park our cars on the street, can't be gauranteed to find a spot in front of our houses, and wouldn't be able to run an extension cord across the sidewalk even if we could.