Apple Disables Egyptian iPhones' GPS 278
floydman writes "Apparently the Egyptian government is paranoid about its community using GPS devices, to the degree that it demanded Apple remove any GPS functionality from its iPhone 3G.
They claim that 'GPS functionality should be limited to military purposes.' Egyptian blogger Ahmed Gabr brought this issue up in another article, and talks about how this does not make sense, since Google maps and the like can be used. I also happen to know for a fact that most of the modern cars in Egypt have built-in GPS systems."
Why do Egyptians need GPS anyway? (Score:5, Funny)
Can't they just look around and figure out which pyramids they are standing between and go from there?
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Can't they just look around and figure out which pyramids they are standing between and go from there?
But they all look alike. This wouldn't be a problem if they had listened to my idea of bulding a square pyramid.
Re:Why do Egyptians need GPS anyway? (Score:5, Funny)
Pyramid based triangulation...? No, that will never catch on.
K.
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There's even a nice Qibla Finder [app-to-date.com] for iPhone which always will show the direction to mecka for your afternoon prayer.
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------> The Joke
O ---> My Head
I guess I don't get that joke...could you please elaborate? I confess I don't keep up much with things going on in Egypt...
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Swell plan (Score:5, Interesting)
In a country that consists to a good deal of desert and other not too pleasant terrain where getting lost means dying it's a really, really good idea to disallow tools that allow you to find out where exactly you are.
Is it me or is this already beyond stupid and paranoid? What "advantage" could a terrorist/communist/boogymanoftheweek gain from knowing where he is? I guess those people are
a) knowledgeable enough of the area to know where they are.
b) Usually not interested in blowing themselves sky high in the middle of nowhere and
c) Not too picky of where they strike, as long as it causes enough people to get terrorized (hence their description).
So I'm waiting for a really good explanation why a potentially life saving function should be turned of for "security" reasons. I know, "national security" means "whatever keeps the government in power" these days, but shouldn't we at least keep the pretence up that it's about keeping the people safe?
Re:Swell plan (Score:5, Funny)
grab your iphone.. fire up urban spoon...
shake...
Choices are sand, sand, sand...
Hmmm.... I think we'll have sand today.
Re:Swell plan (Score:5, Insightful)
True, but let's imagine you have a car, a tank full of gas and are lost in the middle of some desert. You have enough fuel to reach anything within 100 miles but what is within 100 miles? More important, is there anything within 100 miles (hopefully you were clever enough to only use up to half your tank's contents...)?
But let's imagine your car broke down and you're in the middle of the desert. Let's also assume you were smart enough to bring along a sat phone for emergencies (like this one). What do you want to prefer to tell a potential rescue team? "I'm in the middle of the Sahara, try to find me" or "I'm at xxxx'N, xxxx'E, come pick me up"?
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What do you want to prefer to tell a potential rescue team? "I'm in the middle of the Sahara, try to find me" or "I'm at xxxx'N, xxxx'E, come pick me up"?
Well, it probably wouldn't matter anyway, since the rescue team probably wouldn't be able to figure out where they are, because satnav has been banned in Egypt for all but the military.
Wait a minute...
Re:Swell plan (Score:5, Insightful)
True, but let's imagine you have a car, a tank full of gas and are lost in the middle of some desert....
Full tank? Ask the guy at the station for directions.
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iPhone-style assisted GPS uses cell towers to help get a quicker fix but does not require anything besides the pure GPS signal from the satellites. It's just that the pure satellite signal will require ~30 seconds to get a fix instead of the 1 second you get when the cell network helps out.
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True, but IIRC the location request on the iPhone Google Maps app times out long before a non-assisted GPS fix can be achieved.
And the point is moot anyway, until an application comes along with maps stored on the device, as opposed to being downloaded on the fly (the Google Maps app does cache its maps, but I wouldn't trust that caching with live-saving information).
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You could use one of the free apps that gives you lat/lon and then combine it with a (gasp) paper map.
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It would take about ten seconds to write an iPhone app that gives access to the raw data, and indeed a trivial search of the App Store reveals many such apps already there, several of which are free.
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Which is why "smart enough to bring a sat phone" was included...
Try reading next time.
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Re:Swell plan (Score:5, Funny)
Preamble: English is not my native language
"Let's also assume you were smart enough to bring along a sat phone for emergencies (like this one)"
How can that be misinterpreted to read that he meant the iPhone was a satellite phone?
Simple substitution:
"Let's also assume you were smart enough to bring along a sat phone for emergencies (like the iPhone)"
Ahhh, so the iPhone is an emergency! Err, wait.
If he wanted things to read like the iPhone was a satellite phone, he'd write:
"Let's also assume you were smart enough to bring along a sat phone (like the iPhone) for emergencies"
However, if you unsubstitute that:
"Let's also assume you were smart enough to bring along a sat phone (like this one) for emergencies"
Then you'd have to scan around for what "like this one" would be referring to.. his post doesn't refer to any specific phone at all.. if this wasn't slashdot with its auto-domain-appendage bits, I would move my mouse over the "like this one" expecting to find it linking to a satellite phone.. I would not assume he meant the iPhone.
Going back to the original line, however, "like this one" easily finds context in "your car broke down and you're in the middle of the desert."
That's not to say the original phrasing can't be improved...
"But let's imagine your car broke down and you're in the middle of the desert. Let's also assume you were smart enough to bring along a sat phone for such emergencies."
But to think he meant the iPhone was an example of a satellite phone? hm.
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English is my only language (UK). FWIW I read it as 'emergency', but I see how, at a stretch, it could be read as 'iphone'.
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Maybe turning off the GPS is how they ended up in the middle of the desert...
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You deal with tourists at a regular base or are otherwise experienced in dealing with stupid people?
The second one.
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I think the answer is armed kids in knock-off Versace.
Don't forget... (Score:2)
This CLEARLY means that since they removed the GPS functionality from the Iphone that no terrorist will have ANY access to a GPS. It's foolproof! After all... any GPS system can be used to... umm... well, it makes bombs go where you want and stuff! TERRORISTS ARE BAD!!!!111!
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it makes bombs go where you want and stuff!
So do suicide bombers. So, for the sake of humanity, outlaw humans!
Re:Swell plan (Score:5, Insightful)
GPS and GSM is the first thing countries like China cut off when a riot occur.
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I don't really know the actual explanation, and I certainly don't discount sheer stupidity when it comes to the actions of the Egyptian government, but I suspect it has something to do with those vast deserts you mention. I think there's a fair amount of cross-border smuggling of weapons/contraband at the Libyan and Sudanese borders, and a cheap/portable GPS device like the iPhone 3G could give smugglers a huge technology advantage (or eliminate a disadvantage) relative to the border patrols.
Of course, smu
Re:Swell plan (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe the simplest of looters could find the coordinates of valuable archeological digs. Before GPS and Google maps, they would have needed maps, survey equipment and access to the journals. Now they could just surf the web and find the coordinates from a research paper.
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Actually, the way it works with most people is that they use their GPS to get to where they are going (or at least part way). The battery then dies and so they can't get back. This is especially true of GPS built into a phone since (at least in my case) the GPS normally dies because I talk so much.
It's probably much safer to force people to use a map and a compass. GPS should only be there for convenience and/or backup. I guess you've almost come up with about the only sensible argument why the Egyptian
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I can think of a place that is even more featureless: The Pacific Ocean. I've been on the ocean in a sail boat and purposely have left the GPS off. It only takes a few hours of training for anyone to learn how to not get lost and actually to get to places, even on the ocean.
Once in a class an instructor took us out at night in a good sized cruising sail boat when the Coast Guard small craft advisory in effect. He put a dut on the chart and asked "how long until we are there?" This was not some feat of s
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In the example, the danger is the bomb, not the GPS. In terms of procurement, the difficult bit is getting hold of the bomb, not the GPS.
On a more serious note, how do they know that you're in Egypt in order to turn it off? Perhaps they use GPS...
Re:Swell plan (Score:4, Insightful)
Because of course any terrorist who's planning to build a GPS guided missile to blow up a market will suddenly change his mind and start growing flowers and raising puppies when he discovers that GPS receivers are banned by the government.
Re:Swell plan (Score:4, Insightful)
"Other than, say the ability to drop a UAV bomb on government buildings or open markets from hundreds of kilometers away ?"
Please design and execute this plan, while delivering more destructive power than a suicide bomber with pockets full of hand grenades... or an RPG (for government buildings). Oh, and do that with the economics means and know-how of terrorists... and make sure no one knows about it.
There is a reason why UAVs are JUST getting into the fray in modern warfare. They are not EASY to build or guide. And even the most advanced UAVs, have a fairly limited payload... and we're talking about large craft, that cost hundreds of millions to design.
Finally, GPS is available to terrorists through a billion other sources. Apple's position here nothing more than a publicity stunt. Kind of reminds me of handgun bans.
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Why an RPG for government buildings? Just use two suicide bombers. The first nukes himself at the checkpoint, the second goes in a few days later before the sniffing device can be replaced and does whatever was planned.
When there is a will, there is a way. And when someone is already willing to kill himself to kill you, there's a damn lot of will...
Re:Swell plan (Score:5, Insightful)
Other than, say the ability to drop a UAV bomb on government buildings or open markets from hundreds of kilometers away ?
Meh it's cheaper to have a true believer strap explosives to himself and guide himself there. When you have that kind if resource at your disposal why would you pay for iphones and predator drones.
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An iphone 3g (or any gps device, but iphone 3g is sturdy, cheap and available) controlling a low flying bomb would be a terrorist's dream weapon.
Or maybe they could import a couple of failed Xbox360s, these should be cheap and the fans in those would surely be powerful enough for an ICBM? Just solder in a couple of fan-less old AMD-chips to and let the fun begin.
Personally I'd take a canister filled of whatever flammable petroleum product, a piece of textile to use as fuse and a pair of shoes suitable for running ..
Add gravel/glass/.. to the container if you also want to hurt someone. Should work, no?
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Yeah, sure, those terrorists capable of turning an iPhone into a cruise missile will be stopped in their tracks by this measure. The would never dare to smuggle in an iPhone *with* GPS, and would never get the idea to buy a $20 GPS module for this purpose.
No, your scenario is complete nonsense. There are much simpler and cheaper solutions when you want an programmable embedded GPS system.
However, what you can do with an "off the shelve" iPhone is to it use as tactical computer to coordinate the movement of
Re:Swell plan (Score:5, Interesting)
Ah, that explains it then. Cruise missiles and other long-range delivery methods are easy and cheap to obtain, while a GPS navigator is the nigh-legendary top-secret techical marvel only rumoured to exist...
GPS + terrorists = terrorists who can locate themselves.
Most countries don't have the capability of detecting bombs taped into the bottom of a random car, set up to go off during rush hour.
Yeah. And with a GPS-enabled phone, all they are lacking is the flying bomb.
I truly hope you are trolling. Otherwise I'm starting to get a bit scared, and not of terrorists. Maybe we should start a war on stupidity next ?
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Maybe we should start a war on stupidity next ?
Now THAT's an unwinnable war. :)
Re:Swell plan (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe we should start a war on stupidity next ?
No point. We would not stand a chance.
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Well everyone else seems to have pointed out that you're an idiot but I'll chime in with- terrorists are like lightening. Sure they kill people but they kill so few that it really really isn't worth selling your freedoms in order to completely fail to stop them.
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What? anyone can find out where any city is, down to the street.
It's not a problem.
You don't have to go some place to find it's GPS location.
Oh well At least I can go there with my G1
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Apparently you don't have a hobby store down the street.
There's been this whole hobby of building and flying UAVs that's been around since at least WWII.
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You've obviously never seen anything other than a park flyer. There's some quarter and half scales that could be used by children or midgets.
What do you need a 200 km range for? They don't need to launch these things from the next country over. Heck, as long as there's a tall enough building to put your target within glide range you don't even need propulsion.
Terrorists wouldn't have the same needs as the military. They don't need extreme stand off range. People aren't going to be aware of the terrorist unt
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true, but it wasn't like they fired one and one hit.
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You americans is hilarious, stop being so fucking scared.
Eh? I thought the article was about Egypt banning GPS, not the US being frightened of it. The rest of the discussion, as far as I can tell, is about guessing the rational of the Egyptian government for doing so, with an emphasis on national security (Egyptian, obviously), since that theory makes the most sense.
So where do you get the scared American bit from in this discussion? We're scared of a foreign country banning GPS within their own borders,
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To put this as politely as possible, some people need to get their liberal heads out of their asses and realize that the danger of terrorism is very real in some countries, and protection is absolutely required.
You misunderstand the comment, methinks. The problem is not that we do not believe in terrorism, or that it is a Bad Thing (tm).
What we are saying, from within our 'liberal asses', is that clamping down on the freedom to know where one is will do nothing to stop terrorism.
Therefore, we are arguing that one should not clamp down on that freedom.
In fact, some of us outrageous 'liberals', have this odd idea that _whenever taking away some freedom will do nothing or next to nothing to prevent some harm,
Location, location, location... (Score:4, Interesting)
If the above is the case, it's a pretty dumb approach, since a GPS-enabled iPhone could just be smuggled in. Either way, it would be interesting to know what the real motives behind this ban are.
Re:Location, location, location... (Score:4, Interesting)
That sound like a more logic reason, but bluntly, it's not like building a GPS device is in any way rocket science or requires any kind of "monitored" hardware. Actually, the iPhone would be a rather poor choice for such a device, not only for its price. And it makes little sense to build such a bomb in the first place unless you plan to send it through FedEx or postal service.
Re:Location, location, location... (Score:5, Informative)
There are other options. The comparison with car GPS is interesting - ok, they don't mind people navigating and mapping roads, since they are public anyway. But small GPS devices that look like mobile phones - could these be more of a security risk? It is possible to walk to many more locations than can be reached on the public highway. It is possible that they could be used as trigger devices, just like in the Madrid train bombings [wikipedia.org]. Consider that the phones are used as timers, and that one of the standard protocols in use in security sensitive areas now is to jam RF and cell phone frequencies to block this kind of trigger. It's not a huge leap to realise that a GPS device could be similarly linked, and would provide an accurate non-blockable trigger for a vehicle based bomb.
It sounds as though Egypt bans or disables all personal GPS devices. I guess it shouldn't be that much of a surprise that a government is concerned about the military implications - remember that the United States only turned off Selective Availability [wikipedia.org] 8 years ago, and this was only after they developed new technology to actively jam GPS signals in targetted regions. And don't forget the political fallout [allacademic.com] after the EU decided to implement the Galileo M-code overlay [findarticles.com] inside the same frequency band as the US military GPS in order to ensure that there was no way to block one without blocking the other. GPS technology has traditionally been militarily and politically sensitive, but at the same time we are now seeing the rise of a new world where most human are going to have cell phones and GPS devices. This is inevitably going to cause some social conflict as societies adjust to the new reality.
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It's far easier to do that with nokia phones that are plentiful and easy to hack or [GASP] a easy to get and ready to hack GPS, than a freaking iphone.
It's called very uneducated diplomats and "leaders" freaking out over nothing.
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Note, I'm not affiliated with SparkFun in any way. I'm also not condoning terrorist action, just pointing out how easy it is nowadays with cheap and easy access to the necessary technology.
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If the above is the case, it's a pretty dumb approach, since a GPS-enabled iPhone could just be smuggled in.
Besides, there's no way Apple would allow that software into the app store.
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Besides, there's no way Apple would allow that software into the app store.
Why, does Apple already offer an official iBomb app?
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Your first candidate for a motive should always be simple stupidity - which isn't really a motive, I guess. But it's correct the most often.
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I don't get it (Score:3, Interesting)
Wouldn't most governments generally prefer that their citizens be trackable? I can't imagine the Egyptian government is somehow a beacon of light in the world of internal spying, so what gives?
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I mean really, the only "tracking" done by GPS is if said GPS enabled device has a secondary connection in it to relay that information back somewhere. In the case of the iPhone, yes, it can send GPS data back to the world somewhere via its cellular
Military Use (Score:3, Interesting)
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Which is why there is also other existing or proposed GNSS
Beidou
Galileo
GLONASS
IRNSS
QZSS
So the USA cannot "just shut it off" .....
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Sure they can [wikipedia.org]
They're afraid of something (Score:3, Funny)
and they're afraid to say what it is that they're afraid of.
Interesting.
I'm sure it has something to do with the Pyramids and geo-caching. :)
The Egyptian black hole (Score:2)
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2005/05/09/black-hole [hrw.org]
Interesting (Score:2)
Given that OpenStreetMap Cairo [openstreetmap.org] looks pretty complete I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of GPS devices already out there.
It's interesting to watch the trickle down effect of technology and grassroots efforts to harness it, coming fact to face with traditional government regulation, such as amateur cartography being illegal in Russia [lwn.net]. I guess personal GPS devices and the internet are pretty subversive.
What about tourists? (Score:2, Interesting)
I was on vacation in Sharm el-Sheikh last April, and wandered around like a stupid tourist with a Bluetooth GPS and a Nokia N800 around my neck. Nobody seemed to care. We even went through a military checkpoint.
Um, was I doing something illegal?
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Only if you didn't spend a couple of grand in hard currency and you gave material support to the Muslim Brotherhood.
Sharm el-Sheikh is the Sun City of Egypt.
My only explanaintion (Score:3, Interesting)
Is that this is due to "leadership minds'" ignorance of the current state of technology. Someone thinks that by doing this, he has acclaimed a certain power to himself only (the government) in this case.
Is he is totally unaware, that most phones (HTC, I-mate, some nokia's) have GPS's in them, and if not, it didn't cross his mind that a simple wifi connection (quiet common in cairo, lived there for a couple of years) would be more than enough to act as a GPS look alike.
Dinosaurs in control if you ask me.
Someone mentioned above that he was walking around with a bluetooth GPS device, well you are not the only one, I was for a couple of years, a lot of other people I know also did.
The question is, how come Apple obliged...thats what does not make a lot of sense to me.
Evil? (Score:2)
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Maps (Score:2)
Google maps and the like can be used. (Score:2)
For now. Expect that to be restricted.
Egypt is fucked up (Score:2)
Wake me when the egyptian population decides to stand up against their wacky leaders.
"Wahhhh! My government is corrupt and tyrannical!"
OK, do something about it!
Travel to Egypt (Score:2)
Will they be allowing GPS enabled phones into the country by travelers? If they don't this will be a huge problem for people traveling to Egypt If they do allow travelers to bring their phones, doesn't that circumvent the whole issue. What about travelers that were planning on using GPS to help them find attractions, etc. Can't have those either.
It's simple, really. (Score:2)
Granted, there are other devices currently deployed in Egypt that have GPS technology , so either a) the Egyptian government is completely ignorant of these devices (unlikely) or b) it is much more worried about the potential popularity of the iPhone (more likely). A previous poster mentioned that there are "very few cars in Egypt".
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I was also thinking along the lines of :
we can let you release the iPhone with GPS if you let us charge you ... $ching ching$
or maybe someone in a high position who saw an opportunity for some under table money (would not be surprised to hear something along these lines in Egypt)
GPS devices (Score:2)
Having just come back from there, I was suprised at the lack of GPS devices in cars etc. Aside from the size of the gap between the rich and poor, GPS devices are banned from cars because of questions over their intelligence.
If you have seen Cairo, having a GPS doesn't mean you can drive on the roads or even go in the right direction, having a death wish or a lot of faith in God / Allah does.
Wags finger at Egytptian Government. (Score:3, Funny)
Tut. Tut. Tut.
Whose our sun god?
Ra! Ra! Ra!
Thank you, I'll be here all week.
Dear boss (Score:2)
I am sorry I am late for the meeting, I have an iPhone, I am lost!
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:5, Insightful)
Non sequitur. There might be very few new cars, but most of that few might have GPS.
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The cost of a handheld GPS added to a car is next to nothing compared to the actual car - even a cheap 10 year old beater.
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I think you're missing his point. The majority of people with major budget issues cannot afford cars. Hence, most of the people who can are not so financially limited, and thus go for the luxury cars.
Again, I don't know; I'm just clarifying his argument.
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:5, Insightful)
Motre or less. Plus it's not uncommon for poor countries to have a very uneven weath distribution (yes Zimbabwe, I'm looking at you). Top of the range Mercedes with all the extras for the ruling clique, and nobody else can afford a car at all.
In that case 100% of new cars have GPS, climate control and gold-plated ashtrays.
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:5, Informative)
I'd like to illustrate your point with superbly beautiful moving graphs! It is TED so you must click it.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html [ted.com]
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They might. But they might not.
Now you used the word "since", which implies a causal relationship between being a poor country and the proportion of new cars with GPS. Clearly, the causal link is by no means certain. Hence my use of "might", which seems to cause you some confusion. I'm not saying it definitely isn't the case, but one counter-example is enough that your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the premise. That's
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:5, Interesting)
You should visit a few poor countries and note the amount of GPS devices there. I mean even in India there more than just commonplace.
Even on many things you wouldn't consider "cars" you find gps devices these days.
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GPS is great in places where streets really don't have names...
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Like New Orleans??
Actually...the streets here DO have names, trouble is, so many times at a given intersection, the street signs are missing. A GPS can really help getting around down here at times when on unfamiliar streets...
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For large parts of Africa and especially Northern Africa, used cars, often originally imported from Europe in a used state, are the default for most people. This is being changed a bit by cheap cars from China / India but I think it's still true. You can reasonably guess most "new" cars are bought by people who are richer than you are. As such they can probably afford GPS.
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Re:fr1st pst (Score:5, Funny)
their nefarious plot is most transparent. by banning GPS the Egyptian government clearly means to induce a perpetually lost state in the population. this in turn would emasculate the entire civilian male population by forcing them to ask the military for directions, in essence surrendering every shred of their manhood to the Egyptian government in the ultimate act of sexual submission. the government, meanwhile, would have their throbbing virility cemented by their exclusive control of GPS technology--their GPS antennas standing fully erect, thrusting skyward as a potent symbol of their dominance over their now gelded population.
oh, such cruel tyranny. if only they'd gotten the G1 instead...
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Like a depth charge but instead of pressure based it is GPS based. Isn't there a driving instruction program for the iphone?
So people are afraid of this: Turn right, go straight for 2 miles, the turn left, etc. Then Ding! you have arrived at your destination. Have a nice day. Boom!
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
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When did that become the point? I didn't buy my iPhone with GPS for that feature. In fact, I have never called 911 in my life. I bought my iPhone for location based apps/services. Like Google Earth, Google Maps, etc... etc... etc..
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Something like a quarter of the funding of the Egyptian military comes from the US government, so relying on the US for GPS isn't all that big of a deal.