Chinese Automaker Unveils First Electric Car

JuliusSu writes "A Chinese auto manufacturer, BYD, is introducing today the country's first electric car, a plug-in hybrid vehicle. It plans to sell at least 10,000 cars in 2009 for a price of less than $22,000. This put the company ahead of schedule against other entrants to this market, such as Toyota, due to release a similar car in late 2009; and GM, whose Chevy Volt will be launched in late 2010. The company is best known for making cellphone batteries, and hopes its expertise in ferrous battery technology will allow it to leapfrog established car manufacturers."

quality

This should be good, lol.

Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff

That high quality American car is packed to the gunnels with Chinese made parts, including engines.

About the only thing that is truely american is the arrogance.

Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff

True, but don't underestimate the challenges involved in actually assembling a good-looking car that's safe and doesn't break.
Remember the Yugo? Remember how Hyundai was (until recently, anyway)? Hell, (if you're old enough) remember how the Japanese cars once were?

BYD has shown they know how to build laptop batteries. They may be able to scale it up to automobile level (although this is not trivial).
However, they have years to go before they are capable of building automobiles that can compete on safety, comfort and reliability against existing auto makers. They may get there eventually, if they survive that long (Hyundai did, Yugo didn't); however, it's definitely not going to be with their first car. This has nothing to do with being Chinese, and everything to do with being new to market. I wouldn't trust Tesla's first car either, although charging $100K each may give Tesla an advantage in that it can afford to do more over-engineering and cherry-pick good parts than BYD can at its price segment.

Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff

True, but don't underestimate the challenges involved in actually assembling a good-looking car that's safe and doesn't break.

Remember the Yugo? Remember how Hyundai was (until recently, anyway)?

Remember Chevy? Remember Ford?

Yeah.

Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff

One thing I have learned is never under estimate the Chinese, this is a country that has had a incredible GDP since the days of the silk road. One could have said the same about IBM and the computer. we all know how that went. It's not hard to reverse engineer and improve upon an existing design. The only hard part is consumer confidence and brand recognition. US Automaker have done such a good job of killing consumer confidence that most Americans no longer care where it's made cept the fact of the economy

Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff

It's packed with Chinese-made parts that have to adhere to American safety regulations.

Is this batch of 10,000 going to do the same?

It's a serious question, btw. At $22k a pop this could very well be the case.

Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff

That high quality American car is packed to the gunnels with Chinese made parts, including engines.

About the only thing that is truely american is the arrogance.

Arrogance? You obviously don't know much about chinese cars. It doesn't matter where the parts are made, but american cars aren't ENGINEERED in china. So far all the chinese cars that have been engineered in china have been terrible. I remember one example that looked like any other common car in the US or elsewhere, but it did so poorly in crash testing it couldn't even manage ONE STAR. It was a deathtrap.

Don't call people arrogant without checking your own ignorance. I'm not saying the car can't be good, but given what has come out of china so far, people have a right to be skeptical.
-Taylor

Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff

Deathtrap? I think after watching these videos, most people will agree you are being a bit generous.

http://www.break.com/index/failed-chinese-crash-test.html [break.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZWy_fASSiQ [youtube.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVwmuQqN46g [youtube.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEeqxq7EtQU [youtube.com]
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/22/brilliance-bs6s-adac-crash-test-is-anything-but/ [autoblog.com]
http://www.leftlanenews.com/chinese-sedan-flunks-german-crash-test-with-video.html [leftlanenews.com]

Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff

About the only thing that is truely american is the arrogance.

Best in class baby! USA! USA!
...whoops, the steering wheel on my Pontiac caught on fire. [*]

[*] BTW, this actually happened to me on a 5 year old
1986 Pontiac Grand Prix while I was driving it.
I now drive a Toyota.

Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff

Actually no. There is a LOT of stuff in cars of all brands that is actually made in the U.S. There is also a lot made in other countries. But from what I've seen - working in Detroit for a long time - is that China is not the largest contributor of parts. Go ahead and argue that some Ford cars are assembled in Mexico, while some Toyotas are built in Alabama (not sure that's the right state) but China is not involved in the same way they are with toys for example. I know it's popular to bash Detroit, but this dumping on them with unfounded gibberish is really getting old. When there are 20+ vehicle manufacturers in the US, it's impressive that the 3 still hold as much market share as they do. Someone must be buying the vehicles.

People laughed about Japanese cars, too.

When the first Japanese cars showed up in Europe in the 1970s, they were cheap but had a terrible reputation. That has changed. Today they are on the same quality level (and almost as expensive) as European cars. Toyota even ruled the reliability/breakdown statistics for years, only recently some European models have retaken the lead.

I expect that the same will happen with the Chinese cars. They may have not much experience in car making now, but 10 years from now things can look different.

Charging an electric car

This is a little OT but I figure someone here might know. With so many electric cars finally coming to market I thought it would be smart to plan ahead even if I'm not ready to take the leap yet...

So, I'm in the process of a remodel and have an easy opportunity to install a high-amperage electric circuit to some location in the garage. Is there any emerging standard for charging electric cars that would dictate the ideal location to put the outlet? I.e. in front of the car, driver side, passenger side, what height from ground, etc. Also amperage, type of plug etc would be good to anticipate, although initially I'd just have an empty conduit running there from the load center.

Re:Charging an electric car

My understanding is that most (all?) of these plugin hybrids are being designed to fit a standard household electrical socket. I would think if you have a standard GFI outlet in your garage (and I think just about everyone does) you should be fine. Honestly, I don't see how these things would take off if they required rewiring your house just to be able to recharge them.

Re:Charging an electric car

Last I had heard they were tiered. Standard 110v was like 12 hour recharge, 220v (like water heater or dryer) was like 4 hour and a nonstandard 440v could do in 1-2 hours.

Bye, bye GM :)

Detroit wasn't interested...someone had to get on with it.

GM killed electric trolley public transportation on the East Coast decades ago, pushing for city buses made by GMC that used internal combustion. The VOLT was promoted using jazzy images of impressive body lines that promoted interest, only to release a breadbox as the final design. GM doesn't want the VOLT to succeed, and now with their imminent demise, they may get their wish.

BYD will be in NA in short time, and more like them will follow. I wish them best of luck.

good luck getting support

A big challenge to any new player getting into the electro-auto market is dealer support. Where is someone supposed to get parts for this thing or a Tesla? Sure, an electric vehicle design should require less maintenance, but even components will need to be replaced due to accidents and road wear.

I've heard people say the auto bailout money should go to a start-up like Tesla. The problem with completely abandoning the American automakers and putting public funds behind a startup is that the big three already have huge infrastructure in place. They already understand production. Bless the hearts of those Tesla idealists, but they're going to spend a BUNCH of money developing dealerships, parts distribution, training mechanics & sales people. And until their production numbers get big, the deals they'll cut with suppliers won't be as profitable as the ones Ford/GM/Chrysler make with their suppliers thanks to the economies of scale they're working in.

I'm not saying there isn't a place for smaller companies to come in and fill a niche demand. But now isn't the time to abandon the American auto companies and watch them perish. If that happens, Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai will assist in a huge transfer of wealth overseas.

Seth

Re:good luck getting support

What's so hard about supporting an electric car?

Quite a bit, if you think about it:

1) Educating and qualifying mechanics to work on the car. Your average Joe at the gas station isn't going to be able to service this thing right off the bat, nor will he be able to open the hood and figure it out after a few minutes' inspection. At least for the first two or three years this car is on the market, you'll be forced to rely on dealer service, simply because there won't be trained mechanics anywhere else. And if you break down someplace where there isn't a dealer handy, you're hosed. A hobbyist owner might be able to repair the car, to a greater or lesser extent, but those repairs might void the warranty, or in some states may disqualify the car from street service entirely.

2) Availability of parts. There is lots and lots more that goes into an electric car, or indeed any car, besides a few hundred feet of wire, an electric motor and a few batteries. If your alternator dies, if you have to replace a transmission or some other drivetrain component, if your windshield cracks, all of those require many more parts to complete beyond the obvious part that's malfunctioning. The problem is compounded if you have multiple systems damaged at once, as in the context of an accident. You'll have to have some mechanism in place to get those parts from their Chinese manufacturers to a U.S. dealer service department, quickly and efficiently. (This is harder than it sounds; as a personal example, I can confirm that for a certain well-known German luxury manufacturer, a replacement front bumper fascia took three weeks to ship from Stuttgart, where replacing the same part on an American vehicle took two days.)

On a related note, you also have to worry about the general lack of infrastructure. Right or wrong, as it stands right now the entire transportation infrastructure in the US is set up to deal with internal combustion vehicles. Changing over to an electric infrastructure is going to take time, at least two or three years and probably more like five or seven, during which time the drivers of electric vehicles are going to be at a major disadvantage. You won't be able to charge most places, won't be able to get service most places, might not be able to drive on freeways or other limited access roads (at least here, freeways are restricted to internal combustion vehicles with engines greater than 125 CC displacement, which can't be powered farm equipment, and must be able to maintain a minimum speed of 55 MPH). Those restrictions might be enough to put people off electrics entirely, or at the very least slow their adoption. It'd be a damned shame if that happened, but it's a very real risk. In the meanwhile, everyone who bought these electric cars will be in the lurch, and if the manufacturer folds, the vehicles will be little more than hobby pieces.

What's wrong with you people?

I have yet to see a serious, insightful post about this story. A little googling turned up pics and data although I confess that I don't know what
16 kwh / 100 KM works out to in MPG.

The pictures I saw of the car look pretty nice. Congrats to the Chinese - if this turns out to be a quality vehicle, it may force the Big Three stragglers to dump some of their guzzlers and give
us clean, efficient vehicles we can depend on

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

I kinda doubt Warren Buffett would invest in vaporware....

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

Well that was a complete non-sequitur and kinda rude. My point was that Warren Buffet (one of the richest men in the world) has made his fortune by investing in companies that actually turn a profit as opposed to typical speculation. Because of his past success and a 10% stake, there's a chance that the Chinese car is not vaporware.

Now your comment implies that I am somehow responsible for the current financial crisis either because I make speculative investments or take out/issue bad loans, perhaps based on what Warren Buffet does. Those implications aren't true, nor do they have any bearing on the comment I made. So, I can only assume you're trolling for easy mod points.

You should stop because it only makes you look like an idiot.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

Your entire proof that Buffet has any interest in this venture is a story on Slashdot. That makes you the idiot.

Curiously, I do not share your sentiment about the other poster.

I am, however, fairly confident that you are an imbecile. [google.com]

Re:Anyone can make an electric car

I avoid any products made in China now because I can't trust them anymore. How much food is recalled and childrens toys? Do you want to be in an accident in one of these things and then find out that to cut costs, they used cheap air-bags?

Another reason to avoid Chinese goods (if their human rights record isn't good enough) is that their industry is ecologically harmful. Chinese industry have little incentive not to polute the environment in some of the most egregious ways.

Re:Anyone can make an electric car

Does this mean it's reliable?

No, it doesn't exist yet.

Is it made of Melamine like all their food?

You're planning on eating the thing? Interesting.

I avoid any products made in China now because I can't trust them anymore.

Don't eat random products made anywhere.

How much food is recalled and childrens toys?

Boy, you're really hungry, aren't you? Shouldn't eat toys.

Do you want to be in an accident in one of these things and then find out that to cut costs, they used cheap air-bags?

No, I don't want to be in an accident in anything small. I want to be in an accident in my 3/4 ton 4WD pickup.

Re:Which is it?

It is hybrid, it has a backup gasoline engine.
It's not really new, but it's better than all electric like the Tesla. It may be fast, but as it has been shown in the latest episode of Top Gear, it has a major drawback, recharging time.
Seeing the hydrogen-powered Honda FCX Clarity in that same episode showed how it can be done practically. Fill up like a gasoline car, be done in two minutes and drive on.
For those that haven't seen it, info and torrent link here [finalgear.com].

Re: I have to wonder

Part of the problem is that it would be rather expensive to engineer a car to meet 50 different emission standards. Nobody, except the state's showing their control, wants that.

So why not make it meet the strictest standards? Partly because it just keeps pushing the costs higher for stuff nobody needs in the other 49 states. There is also nothing that suggests there would be one "strictest" standard.

California was allowed to set requirements that no other state had for quite a while. In the beginning it required reworking and adjusting a car that was imported into California before it could be sold there. So you would see cars selling for $3,000 to $5,000 higher in California. Should you be so silly as to buy a car in Arizona when you were a California resident you would be faced with paying that extra amount to have the car modified before it could be licensed. So in a way, we have tried this already and it was a disaster. It might have helped out air quality in California or it might not have. Nobody really knows.

I'd say the biggest problem would be conflicting requirements between states. If this was allowed, and so far the Federal Government hasn't made it clear that such state level regulation would never be allowed, you would have a different set of hardware for each state for each car. Sure, California could have their regulations but there would be nothing to prevent Nevada from having different and mutually exclusive requirements.

The only sensible way is to have one Federal standard. It works for car owners, it works for car manufacturers and it can work for everyone else as well. The problem seems to be enacting some realistic legislation at the Federal level.

Also, it isn't going to help if some states are allowed to regulate batteries for electric and hybrid cars. Not long ago California prevented sales of cars with lots and lots of lead-acid batteries in them because of the hazards of both lead and acid. I do not know what the state of things are today, but there are plenty of people doing electric car conversions using lead-acid batteries. I suspect it is not legal to buy, sell, modify or license such a car today in California. There is no reason to think that other states will be any more forgiving about toxic pollutants if each state is allowed to pass their own regulations.