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Unix Operating Systems Software

SCO Tuning for Services, Ports Tarantella 87

Posted by HeUnique from the I-wouldn't-trust-them-very-much dept.
According to a story on Sm@rt reseller, SCO is tuning now to be a service company (not just to Linux but to AIX and other unices), and they are porting (this is unofficial and not confirmed) Tarantella to Linux. Can anyone post details about Tarantella? What is it? How is it compared to Citrix's Metaframe?
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SCO tuning for services, ports Tarantella More

SCO tuning for services, ports Tarantella

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  • Tarantella info (Score:3)

    by substrate ( 2628 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @08:46AM (#1364706)
    Click here [sco.com]
  • SCO will add a lot to the Linux community with this. They will never have the influence that some other companies have, directly. But, indirectly, they will have a big impact on the future of the community. Their products have already had a big impact otherwise.
  • I think that this is long in coming...SCO as an OS stumbled some years ago, and people just can't justify using SCO when they can use Linux for free. I will avoid the politics of what I think about SCO, but I have administered my fair share. All in all, I think this is a positive step for SCO, and I hope that they do port Tarantella.

    J

  • Remember this story from last September where SCO was bashing Linux? To quote:



    Linux at this moment can be considered more a play thing for IT students rather than a serious operating system in which to place the functioning, security and future of a business.


    The bandwagon is getting a mite crowded...

  • I don't know about other slashdot authors, but I DO check my sources before I post. When I write un-official, it means I heard it from an employee or someone who is close to this company, but the company doesn't issue any press release yet.
  • In the words of Infoworld's Nicholas Petreley, "Tarantella is middleware that pretends to be a client to a heterogeneous mix of applications platforms" For the full description and comments, check it out at http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/00/01/10/ 000110oppetreley.xml

  • I keep forgetting to hit the damn "HTML format" option. Sigh. Here's that link [slashdot.org].

  • What would you expect from a company that sells a competing product? You can pick SCO UNIX or LINUX, which do they want you to pick? Two very similar OS's... One has a strong customer base/yadda yadda. Of course they're not going to say, "Oh yeah, use Linux, after all, they're our competitors.
  • The market for things like Citrix and Tarantella(sp?) is shrinking rapidly. The cost of PCs have dropped, making the cost of deploying PCs and deploying Citrix probably close to being the same. The only place where something like this would work is where there is a limited support structure.

    For example:

    Airline terminals (oops, they're using Java)
    Remote offices (but probably not telecommuters, bandwidth issues).

    I would include Linux users to that list, but the amount of quality software that works with Windows is increasing by the day, so compatability with Windows doesn't matter anymore.

    Anyone remember SCO's nice comments about Linux maybe 6 months ago? We don't hold a grudge. Welcome to the party.

  • Re:unofficial news (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    According to SCO's web site here [sco.com], there appears to already be support for Tarantella on Linux. It seems to me they just did a "s/UnixWare 7/Linux/g" ;)

    I have the unfortunate luck to actually have to admin some OpenServer boxen. Yuck. I can't speak for UnixWare, since it won't install on my test machine at the office, but I hear it really isn't bad (of course, SCO didn't write it, they bought it from Novell...)

    I hope to get a reseller/developer freebie of Tarantella for Linux to play with, now that I know this is for real.

  • I had the pleasure to administer a SCO UNIX box which was used to run an Oracle server for our in house testing. Admittedly, this was a few years ago, but I never in my entire life, have come across another UNIX install so unstable and broken as SCO UNIX. I was running Linux kernel 1.0 back then and found myself wishing every evening that the machine at work would work half as well as my home box and be set up 1/4 as intelligently.


    SCO UNIX might have had it's place in the market 10 years ago, but the steamtrain that we call Linux robbed it of it's right-to-existance many years ago.


    After my experiences with the above mentioned SCO UNIX box, I can only hope that their services are better than their software. SCO UNIX felt like a car at the crash derby, with bits and pieces falling off to the left and to the right constantly. In my mind, there's not real justification to their (continued) corporate existance.

  • Mark, have you ever tried _administering_ dozens of PCs, each with a complex multi-tier application running on them? When it comes to upgrade time, the thinner the client, the better. Don't confuse thin-client hardware with thin-client software. The former is a niche market. The latter is just common sense.
  • The above link is the SCO page with little info. See the Tarantella description here [thinplanet.com] for a better description. It lets you do things like access mainframe applications over the web. Or access an X11 application over the web. You use Java in your machine to connect to the Tarantella server.

  • Death to marketroids (Score:4)

    by ABadDog ( 28370 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @09:28AM (#1364725) Homepage
    This is from their faq [sco.com]


    What is Tarantella Enterprise II?


    Tarantella Enterprise II is the flagship Tarantella product providing enterprise class features for customers demanding an extensible, scaleable solution. Tarantella Enterprise II servers can be configured as a centrally managed array, supporting thousands of users. They can also connect to hundreds of application servers providing the reliablility, availability and scaleability needed for enterprises.


    What is Tarantella software? Is it middleware?

    In a way it is middleware, but that term does not truly describe the full capabilities of the Tarantella product ("Tarantella"). Tarantella is middleware in that it sits between your appliation servers and client devices. But unlike most traditional middleware, Tarantella allows you to deploy existing server based applications, as well as new ones, over the network, via a web interface, without the need to rewrite anything.



    Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up!

    Ok, so it gets slightly more informative, but apparently the most important thing about the product is that it's fully buzzword compliant.
  • Yeah, instead you can have a Citrix Metaframe/Windows Terminal Server Comobo that is just a pain in the but to admin. Want to install a custom VB/database app on the server for a 10-20 users? It was an hour-long install and many hours of troubleshooting permissions, etc. Geez, I could have just put the setup on the network, mailed the users a shortcut to the setup, and said "run this please!" or automate it with a silent install and SMS if I really wanted to. I'm telling ya, I've worked with that piece of &*(# at it does NOT save you money. Maybe if you had hundreds or Thousands of clients. Maybe.
  • It's true that administering the server can be a major pain in the arse, but given the choice between haring around fiddling with all those clients, and spending a little more time on a single server, I'd choose the server any day. Apart from anything else, a thin-client software app leaves less for the user to screw^H^H^H^H^Hfiddle with, and gives the admin more control over the application as a whole.
  • I think a Linux port of Tarantella is likely. Have a look at this [sco.com] page which says SCO will "introduce a portfolio of server products for the Linux market." at LinuxWorld Expo.

    Following this [sco.com] link on the above page mentions Tarantella for Linux.

    Interesting, they say "SCO has been working on Linux and Open Source initiatives for more than two years," but weren't they talking about how crappy Linux was not 6 months ago(as someone else pointed out)?
  • I would have to say that Citrix does have some flaws, but for the most part it's a great product. I would have to disagree that it's a shrinking market. If anything it's getting bigger. They have many features that Microshaft has been unable to come close too with their RDP protocol.
  • Cool. MS is, as usual, using proprietary protocols, but SCO reverse engineered the MS RDP protocol [thinplanet.com]. Apparently this lets Tarantella emulate MS Terminal Server and run MS apps remotely. You need an MS NT Terminal Server [microsoft.com] to run the apps on. (Sure, RFC 908 defines RDP [faqs.org] but not the format of the data)

    It was asked above how this compares with Citrix. The article mentions that Citrix has to tinker with MS Terminal Server, while this RDP interface is what is normally used by MS NT TS to talk to an "ultra-thin client" (MS term in above link).

  • I would have to disagree, we use Terminal Server quite often and continue to do so. I work for a Clinical Research Org and we have many Research sites with 4-5 computers for 20 people, and slow frame links from our main sites to these research units. Terminal Server/Metaframe is a great solutions for this, you don't need to administer 20 remote PCs and it requires very little bandwidth to operate.

    I've also seen alot of ASPs arise in the last few months. The contractors here provide ASP services and are doing quite well at it, many of there clients are small shops that don't want to spend the money on a service contract, and have no in-house IT. With ASP all the servers can be centrally located and administers, also you can use junk PCs as the end workstation, so upgrading isn't necessary every year.

  • Bwahahahaha! Nice shot, bad dog!
    Muzzdie! :)
  • This is where Java clients come into their own, really. Next to no config required on the client, just install the JRE. A properly written Swing GUI java client runs at a useful speed, depending on the the VM you use. With hardware getting faster and cheaper by the week, the overhead associated with java is getting less and less significant. All the code is downloaded from the server on demand, which admittedly is only really useful for intranets. Add to that the far higher productivity in writing these applications compared to C++ (and even VB, when it comes to network apps), and you have a winner.
  • The Citrix/Terminal Server combo is not really a good example. Winframe used to be a separate product, until MS bought the rights to it and called it Terminal Server. They mucked about with in the process, and the end result isn't very well done. Mind you, I haven't even played with Tarantella, so I can't say whether it's any better or not.
  • I can't speak for UnixWare, since it won't install on my test machine at the office, but I hear it really isn't bad

    From what I've seen of it, it is pretty much a formula SVR4 product (based on older versions, I don't know how much it has diverged since then). It reminded me a lot of other direct SVR4 descendants like Solaris 2.x). Compared with OpenServer which has a lot of goofy baggage from Xenix to carry around, UnixWare seems like a lot more clean product.

    (of course, SCO didn't write it, they bought it from Novell.

    Who in turn bought it from AT&T.

    Other than add-ons of Netware connectivity, the last version of UnixWare I saw didn't look all that much different than when AT&T still owned USL. I think one of the reasons that Novell sold USL was that they never really figured out what to do with it, and what they did wasn't that much.

  • Tarantella Enterprise II is the flagship Tarantella product providing enterprise class features

    "Enterprise class features"? Antimatter warp drives, voice controlled computers with interstellar communication links? Control panels with colored smears which require special training? Okay.

    for customers demanding an extensible, scaleable solution.

    I'll settle for several hundred staff members to start with. If extension requires more ships, I'll deal with the accountants when that is needed.

    Tarantella Enterprise II servers can be configured as a centrally managed array, supporting thousands of users. They can also connect to hundreds of application servers providing the reliablility, availability and scaleability needed for enterprises.

    Well, I'll have to see some reliability figures. It seems to me that the Enterprise class encounters major problems on a weekly basis.

    What is Tarantella software? Is it middleware? In a way it is middleware, but that term does not truly describe the full capabilities of the Tarantella product ("Tarantella"). Tarantella is middleware in that it sits between your appliation servers and client devices.

    I thought the Enterprise class did not sit between things, it tends to travel between things.

    But unlike most traditional middleware, Tarantella allows you to deploy existing server based applications, as well as new ones, over the network, via a web interface, without the need to rewrite anything.

    Can I deploy remotely with a photon torpedo?

  • I shouldn't feed the Trolls, but hearing that SCO donates money to the NRA (assuming this is in fact true) would be one of the first GOOD things I've heard about them in a long time. As for the assertations that the NRA is pro-violence, it seems to me that the venom is in your rhetoric, not the NRAs. On the other hand, you could be posting just to get a reaction, if so, your just a little too far over the edge to have much credibility.

  • Wasn't there some talk of merging UnixWare with another commerical UNIX (HP-UX, I think). The reasoning was that while the market for UNIX was on the up (at the server, anyway), the "variety" of UNIX platforms was confusing and counter-productive. HP was never one for stubbornly clinging to proprietary tech (embracing IA-64, for eaxmple), and combining their efforts with SCO seemed like a good idea at the time. Anyone know if this is still on the cards?
  • What the....? Talk about divergence from the thread....

  • Tarantella vs. MetaFrame (Score:3)

    by diabloii ( 33174 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @10:10AM (#1364743) Homepage
    They are both using different technology for their implementation. SCO's is Java based and therefore more portable. That's why it is available for so many platforms such as OpenServer 5.x, UnixWare 2.x and 7.x, Solaris, AIX, Tru64, HP-UX, and soon Linux. It allows for any application server to serve applications to any client through a Java capable browser. MetaFrame is purely for serving Windows applications, but Tarantella allows you to run Mainframe apps, Linux apps, Unix apps, Windows Apps, etc... on any client. It provides a much better solution as an ASP than MetaFrame ever could. It's flexibility and robustness is not easily matched by any other solution.

    I have seen a piece of the technology used for Tarantella in a tool provided in UnixWare 7.1.x called Webtop. It allows a administrator to adminstrate the system from any browser. It also allows clients to execute X applications in a browser. One of the coolest things I saw was a full X desktop in a browser. This can be done in any client. I know for windows you would need an X emulator, but this solution now does away with that for windows clients.

    It is a very cool product that I see being a very good addition to the applications available for Linux. You can also look at it as another way to attack Microsoft dominance.
  • All deals with working with HP fell through a few years ago. The original plan was for SCO and HP to develop and 64-bit Unix for Itanium (Merced). I don't know why the deal fell through, but now SCO and IBM are working together to make this happen.

  • Greetings!

    We evaluated Tarantella a while back as an interesting way to make a single, cohesive environment out of a variety of application environments (shell apps, X apps, Windows apps). Then we woke up and realized that it was overhead and that user training was the most critical function necessary - not hiding the applications behind a web browser.

    If you're interested in having business users that don't understand X use a Linux app in a browser, then you'll also be interested in products like GraphOn [graphon.com], Exceed Web [hummingbird.com], and the X11R6.3 X browser plugin (also known as Broadway or LBX) [broadwayinfo.com]. Sun/Netscape/iPlanet/AOL/Time Warner/Great Satan also has a competitive product they acquired from a startup that if I recall properly gave them the "iPlanet" name. This can be found at http://www.iplanet.com/products/infrastructure/rem ote_access/s_web_entprs/index.html [iplanet.com] .

  • IIRC Tarantella is based on VNC, you can find out more about the technical details of VNC on the UK AT&T website [att.com]. The basic idea is to use a very simple protocol with most of the work done at the server end allowing the clients to be very simple. For example I have seen pictures of KDE running on someones cell phone using VNC.
  • Obviously they used the Dilbert "Mission Statement Creator".
  • Agreement with SoftwareJanitor -- if SCO donates money to the NRA, they may have some of my sympathy. After all, the various TLAs have to stick together, eh? But then again, if I were an investor, I'd certainly hope that they're getting an appropriate tax benefit from the transaction, and thus saving money. Otherwise, let me (and the neighbors) make our own charitible donations, eh? I don't mind so much a technology company giving away CS scholarships, or supporting programming projects. And though I believe in the right of human beings to arm themselves for self defense, it's not the sort of contribution I'd (indirectly) vote for were I a stockholder.

    On-topic aside: remember how SCO was denigrating Linux as inferior to the "proven" SCO what, 6 months ago? Interesting.

    timothy
  • Actually you can get that functionality by running vnc server, and connecting to it with the java vnc client. WOrks like a charm. Brings up your desktop snappy es ever.

    -----

  • anyone notice the e-mail adress
  • You're correct and I'm sorry for forgetting about VNC. I have tried VNC and it does do the job very well. It still requires software to be installed on a client though.

    Thanks for the correction.
  • Yes it's correct. I'm just stating facts and nothing more.
  • From The Hacker Jargon File [tuxedo.org]:

    "...almost anything ending in `x' may form plurals in `-xen'... But note that `Unixen' and `Twenexen' are never used; it has been suggested that this is because `-ix' and `-ex' are Latin singular endings that attract a Latinate plural."
  • I have loaded up Tarantella several times. It's easy to use and works well. It allows you to instantly offer up any app to a browser. I even made Xgalaga a web app. It ran, although with choppy performance. Most everything else ran pretty well. You are even supposed to be able to run Windows apps from the SCO machine although I have had a lot of video problems trying to get this to work.
  • ox -> oxen

    box -> boxen

    Just follow the pattern.

    ox -> oxen
    box -> boxes
    Just follow the pattern. Oops, what pattern?

  • This being the case, it sucks, case closed.
  • This is a good thing to hear; both for SCO and the computing community as a whole. SCO has been selling and supporting some nice enterprise unices/unix-novell hybrids. But it was about time they changed directoin.

    I have had most experience with SCO OpenServer 5. Its a nice enterprise solution. Its sort of a unix that you dont really want to work on, probably set it up for a company requiring an e-commerce solution but too scared to run a Linux box. It does not come with the development package by default (gcc/libraries/header file) - so its not targeted at developers at all. Being a descendant of Xenix, it has a lot of superfluous anomalies. It does not like talking to other operating systems too much either. The technical support by SCO was good, however. SCO OpenServer has pretty good security too. SCO Unixware 7 is also a nice OS, but face it, you can't cross UNIX and Novell and expect something nice to come out. It's a great thing for novell entusiasts, i'd say, but UNIX guys probably wont like it. Even still, UW7 is WAAAAY better than UW2 and earlier!

    These are limited application OS's.

    SCO unfortunately did not see the direction the community was going, and targeted too much on servers to please the Managers, not the techs. Their OS's are too hermitic to compete with the versatility of Linux and BSDs and Sun. Its better now to target their attention on thing that would be beneficial to both the community and to themselves.

  • I think Unixen is a good plural, like Vaxen for some old platform replaced by my Alpha. In general 'en' is reguarded as a Germanic plural. English is a Germanic language, but somewhere down the line the 's' became common in English and less common in the other Germanic languages. I also tend to cringe a bit at 'viruses' knowing 'en' is a far better plural indicator. In any case, both 'en' and 's' are valid plural indicators in Germanic languages.
  • If you're using a slow dialup link to get remote access to the Unix boxes you're admin'ing and suffer from needing to ocassionally run an X GUI you will love Tarantella. Our big use for it is the X Gui for Veritas Netbackup which feels about 10x faster using Tarantella instead of running an Xserver natively....
  • Easy-to-understand description:

    Tarantella is a Java applet that implements an X Server ("webtop"). Applications are requested to run via a web page and are actually hosted by whatever they used to run on, but now the Xdisplay gets piped through the Tarantella/web server to the applet. (We have this at work, I've used it.)
  • There is a good review [networkcomputing.com] of Tarantella at Network Computing.

    Tarantella offers a new twist on thin-client computing, and it packs extraordinary
    Web-based functionality. Developed by SCO, Tarantella lets users access and run
    applications hosted on Windows NT Terminal Server, Unix X Window servers and legacy
    mainframes with little more than a Java-enabled Web browser.

  • One might compare Tarantella to VNC, Citrix and other products in the same genre. However, Tarantella is more "Enterprise-oriented" than these:

    • In addition to X, it also supports Winframe and dumb terminals.
    • X (and Winframe and terminal) protocol messages are converted to a proprietary protocol, AIP in the Tarantella server. The X applications regard the Tarantella server as the X server.
    • With the Tarantella server being an X server, X font problems are eliminated by configuring Tarantella to us a X font server or adding font paths
    • The AIP protocol compresses X messages (up to 1:10), and implements these more efficiently. Bad X applications with stupid refresh algorithms actually looks better within Tarantella than on a regular X server, because redrawings are handled more efficiently.
    • SCO claims the compression makes X usable on a 9.6k connection. (It definetely works very well on 64k).
    • The X connection (between the application and the Tarantella server) and the AIP connection (between the Tarantella server and the user's browser) are semi-independent. If the user's browser crashes or the user logs out, the X connection is kept alive (this is configurable), and resumed when the user logs in again, possibly at a different location.
    • Tarantella servers can be arranged in clusters, making the server with the lowest load serve new users.
    • Equivalent application servers can be arranged in host lists, ensuring even distribution of users among the various servers.
    • What applications a given user is able to access is configurable and depends on the given user's location in an object hierarchy
    • All configuration and application and user management is done via an applet made available from within Tarantella for Tarantella administrators.
    • On the client side, all which is necessary is a (newish) Java-able browser. A native client is available for the big M.
    • The licensing policy is rather friendly, with licenses based on the number of active users using a certain server or cluster.

    In my view, Tarantella is as much an enterprise and management solution as a technical solution. In a number of companies, this counts as much as the technology part.

  • No, they own 15% of the capital BUT they have no one on the board. Next time you assert that kind of insults, please check your statements before.
  • No SCO is not Microsoft. There have been numerous times that this has been said and it has always been incorrect. Microsoft does own stock in SCO, but in no way steers the direction of the company. Wouldn't you think Microsoft would have killed off SCO a long time ago if it did own it?
  • What kind of hardware were you installing on? Because when I used System V a few years back, it installed without a hitch on a no-name clone. It was definitely easier to install than BSD (we switched to SCO). Linux installs as nicely now (RHat, SuSE) as SCO did 5 years ago.

    I didn't use their support much because first, the os was rock solid (luckily), and also support was expensive and so-so. But SCO also supplied a daunting stack of manuals.

    I think what SCO brings to Linux is years of experience in sales and support for large customers, and partnering with other software companies to develop apps for SCO, similar to what DEC brought to Compaq.

  • Is SCO still owned in part by Microsoft? At one point they owned 25%.
  • They own 15% in stock and don't have anyone on the board. Therefore no real power to steer the direction of the company.
  • Actually, clients don't need any software for VNC beyond a Java-enabled browser, if you can handle 8bit color... higher bit depth does require a special client app, though.


    Supreme Lord High Commander of the Interstellar Task Force for the Eradication of Stupidity
  • Is it usable, from a user's perspective?
  • Hmmm...thats funny, this was not the tune that SCO was humming a while ago. From the 17 Jan. /. frontpage:
    "SCO is tuning now to be a service company (not just to Linux but to AIX and other unices)..."
    But the following was on /. on 4 Sep.:
    "An interesting look at what SCO is telling it's customers about Linux is found
    here [www.xos.nl]. There seems to be a great deal of fear and loathing."
    Strange how just a few months ago SCO was saying:
    "Linux at this moment can be considered more a play thing for IT students rather than a serious operating system in which to place the functioning, security and future of a business."
    They all crawl back on their knees sometime.

    .{redmist}.
    -------------------------------------------------
  • The architecture for Tarantella is designed for very large deployments (several thousand simultaneous users), and it has a lot of unique benefits along those lines. E.g., you don't have to modify the application that you want to run across the network, or even the server you want to web-enable.
    However, it is EXTREMELY expensive. It runs around $400/seat, plus deployment costs, and, as such, it only seems useful in special cases, not as a simple workgroup-level solution, if you ask me. I think GraphOn targets this lower-end market, but I'm not as familiar with their stuff.
    As for VNC, it competes much more closely with PCAnywhere, not Citrix or Tarantella. It's a really cool program, but you can't use it to provide access to SAP to 20,000 desktops.
    Overall, I think they have some issues with their product placement/pricing strategy that'll really hurt them. For instance, to use it with Windows apps, you still need the per user license for Terminal Server. So why not directly access the Terminal Server from desktops? There are certainly situations where Tarantella would help here, but it's hard to justify the huge cash layout that this'll incur, in my opinion.
    As enterprise software (especially ERP and accounting packages) moves more and more to a great web-based front-end right out of the box, Tarantella will lose even more relevance.
    --JRZ
  • I used to work for SCO and have used Taran... It is a very complicated Java Applet. I have never used a Java Applet under Linux without my browser crashing. I have used Java Applets under Windows and they are relatively stable in comparison. I think we have all experienced the phenomenon of using Netscape and turning our backs and all thats is a smoking core file.

    It's a moot point but Netscape for Linux is their weakest platform. I haved used it under other operating system with pretty much works okay.
  • Actually I don't think that deal fell apart, I think it was more that IBM also signed on. That joint venture is called "Project Monterrey" if memory serves, and I believe it is SCO, HP, IBM, Intel and one other partner that I can't remember.

  • Its not just about apps. By that marker anyone who is still in MS just for Msword should be a Linux user since we have word perfect for linux now. Its also big companies like SCO helping shape a good Public image for linux. Its also about having the money to Handle the media. Even mirosoft with all its resources cannot do that so well.
  • Try Navigator 4.61 or 4.7 on a recent (RH 6.0, Mandrake 6.0 or SuSE 6.2 or newer) distro and you should find stability considerably better.

  • No, HP has nothing to do with Project Monterey. HP has been working with Intel on the design of Merced processor and has been doing a lot of work on the next 64-bit processor, McKinley. HP is working on a 64-bit HP-UX for Merced. More info about Monterey can be found here [sco.com]. More info on Intel and HP partnership here [hp.com]

  • ... but that wasn't necessarily the one you were thinking of. Humm... can't find a link on our web server...

    (I work for Bull)

  • I also tend to cringe a bit at 'viruses' knowing 'en' is a far better plural indicator.

    I remember seeing 'virii' somewhere

  • Funding more than one smaller Linux distribution makes a certainly makes some sense. They are buying access to a potential customer base for support contracts. Not necessarily a bad idea. It might also be a way of hedging their bets if the day comes when they have to move their existing customers from their OS to Linux. They will have a couple of different distribution choices with which they have an existing relationship.
  • Yah, but I'd rather run a three-tier app. Use a database server to push even more processing to the server and put everything that talks to the DB in COM objects. This is still pretty much centrally administered. I can use the exact same object on a web page (with IIS/Apache with ChilliSoft and ASP) and VB clients.
    Those clients are pretty "thin" if you lay off all the custom controls on the VB app. They run fine on a p166 w/32meg, which you can get for about $200 ($300 with monitor) I run the install from a web deployment package. I have code in the vb app which checks for a newer version of the exe on the network, if so copies it down. Unless the controls upgrade, I don't need to run the install again.
    Reports and COM objects that actually get database info and validate inputs are on the server. As long as the class interface doesn't change on the COM object, I just replace it on the server and the client never notices. I KNOW from experience that this setup is a LOT easier to maintain than a Citrix server.
  • Haha. You haven't administered hundreds of PCs in many locations. In their current implementations Terminal Server/Metaframe leave a LOT to be desired, but the basic idea is not much different than X or even Telnet if you carry the analogy out. Run there, display here. A Windows terminal is no different than an X terminal, other than the OS running at the back end. If you can't see the value of this, then you must never use telnet or X.

    The future of home computing (ie, non-tech consumers) is in "applicances". How do you manage to get the ease of use AND the diversity of functionality -- terminal server type applications.

    I'm not saying that Metaframe/NT-TS will be the end product that will carry the day, but given the pervasiveness of Windows and Windows applications you can guarantee that the MS product will continue to evolve to fill this market. The challenge will be MS ability to move their OS from a single user to a multiuser model, and to depend less on a Windows client backend and to open MS RDP protocols to other vendors.
  • Hmmm it is fairly obvious that you have never admin-ed more than say 100 machines ... imagine 100 times a machine installation of Office .... so you'd have to visit every machine one by one (or ofcource you buy the extremly and not very scalable CCC solutions...) Believe you me Cytrix is one of the best products I've seen for the M$ market in the last years. Bye

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