Exoskeletons for Human Performance Augmentation 314
xlogan writes, "The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is soliciting innovative research proposals on Exoskeletons for Human Performance Augmentation (EHPA). The agency has put their proposal online.
" The sheer number of mundane tasks I could accomplish with an exoskeleton is amazing. Why, I could rearrange furniture in the blink of an eye, all while defending the Earth from Evil! And with my super-enhanced vision and hearing, I might finally be allowed to join The Justice League of America [?] .
great for sex (Score:1)
Re:People are Cheaper (Score:1)
Oh well, the Army is full of fun projects like this.
Like the Sgt York DIVAD (Division Air Defense) system. Its radar system was bad. It's cannons worked, I guess. But it was based on the M101 APC chassis, and was intended to keep up with the M1 and M2 on the battle field (which it was intended to protect), but could only go as fast as...well, an M101. Cooler heads prevailed and it finally died, but not after lots of $$$ was pumped into it. At least the Army eventually seems to kill off its albatrosses, rather than embracing them fully like the Air Force (F22, B2) and Navy (F-18E/F). I will argue that a SLEP program on the F14s equivalent in price to the F18E/F procurement would get WAY more "bang for the buck" than the F18E/F bastard child plane.
But I should hold out further judgement until the RAH66 helo begins to get deployed
The big problem with the swiss army knife approach to military equipment is that "we can do more with fewer" argument means that you buy into a single point of failure. Lose the knife, and you have no tools left... At $80 million-2Bn per platinum-plated, diamond-encrusted, swiss army knife...
Re:In between an infantry soldier and a tank. (Score:1)
Landmates and MADOX. (Score:1)
Interestingly enough, the Appleseed Databook notes that "true production of master-slave armor" begins in 1992, with "armored shell exoskeleton unit created" in 2029. Oddly enough, true Landmates either aren't widely produced or kept secret for a while; they're portrayed to be a recent development in the first book.
MADOX-01 was particularly interesting, postulating an armored trooper created by the JSDF and US military(in 199X no less!), to semi-replace the attack helicopter. A cheap, lightweight, extremely mobile tank-killer, armed with a small gatling gun and some assorted missiles/shaped charges. About the only thing wrong with it is the assumption made by a lot of directors that the problem of nap-of-the-earth/ground-effect flight will be solved in no time, in a human-sized form without bulky fuel tanks(same assumption in Bubblegum Crisis and Power Dolls). Still, you could use a roller-skate design, like the VOTOMS or Heavy Gears..
IIRC, the Discovery Channel did a series of articles on military/high technology and the anime series predicting them. The MADOX one is at discovery.com/area /technology/virtualtech/issue3/splash.html [discovery.com].
Nah. Moore is so much cuter. (Score:1)
More like Bubblegum Crisis... (Score:1)
And I think the group of women in the bubblegum crisis series was between 18 & 25, but I really don't know.
Bah. (Score:1)
Bugs Mr. Rico, zillions of'em! (Score:1)
Re:My own Gundam! (Score:1)
Not on the street it don't.. more like US$2000-3000 for a M16A2 (fewer lethal bugs
Your Working Boy,
Self-sustaining Environment (Score:1)
"Not necessarily... the proposal doesn't
say anything about it being a
completely self-contained environment."
Well... the proposal may not say so, but then, it _is_ a proposal after all.
The final product may have much more than what the proposal has proposed - for the final product has to take into account how to sustain the living ocndition of the human operator inside, *IF* you put a human operator inside, that is.
And the final product has to deal with the adverse condition those exo-droids would be in operation - in the cold artic area, in the hot desert, above ground, or under water, protection from not only the elements but also protection against bio- and/or chemical warfare.
Those are things that have to be taken into consideration, if you want to put a human being inside the exo-droid.
In between an infantry soldier and a tank. (Score:1)
"The problem with a virtual body is that
it will never replace the capabilities
of an infantry soldier."
Very true !
But then, the exo-skeleton droids with human inside will not be as agile as the infantry soldier either.
Both the virtual body and the exo-droid will be used as something in between an infantry soldier and a tank.
A droid will be more agile than a tank, and more powerful than an infantry soldier. Places where the tank is a sitting duck, droids (or mech) would be there.
Actually, a mask is not quite enough ! (Score:1)
"but also protectoin against bio- and/or
chemical warfare."
"or they could just put the same amount of
protection they give soldiers going into
battle against bio/chem warfare... a mask."
A mask maybe enough back in World War One, but not now.
Nerve gas and bio-agents can gets into one's body through the skin.
You do have to wear moon-suit like thing to protect you.
Re:Walker Droids (Score:1)
"Bipedal movement is very hard to pull off.
It's also inefficient at low speed,
unstable, and complex. If I was making a
combat bot, I'd probably stick to quads or
wheels--the advantages of bipeds are far
outweighed by the complexity imposed in all
but a very few situations. (Of course,
Murphy dictates that those will be the
situations you end up in, but presumably
there would be a range of bots available.)"
I do agree with you that in many cases bipedal mode of movement is limited, and I also agree without that there ought to be different bots using different modd to move.
However, what I have pointed out is that the Bipedal mode of movement is NOT impossible. It may be slow now, but it could be faster down the road.
We humans have been used to the bipedal mode perspective for millions of years, and perhaps it would take us another million years or two to get us to be used to other forms of perception - be it spiderlike, or fishlike, or birdlike, or germslike, or whatever mode that we haven't even realize yet.
There is much work to be done, and I say let's start to do it.
Forever Peace (Score:1)
You wrote:
"Joe Haldeman wrote of a similar system
in Forever Peace (ISBN: 0-441-00566-7).
The requirements for a human interface
are fascinating, especially if the
remote is bipedal. I want one."
I am not sure I can afford one, but then, I agree with you, I want one too !
BTW, thanks for mentioning that great book from Mr. Haldeman. I enjoyed it thoroughly the first time I read it.
Solutions over the flaws (Score:1)
I do recognize the flaws you have outlined. But there are solutions over the flaws.
Frequency wise, you don't have to be stuck onto ONE frequency alone. You can use multiple frequencies, and you can do "frequency hopping", much like the cellphone does.
And you can combine that with encryption and all other sort of detection devices, to minimized (and yes, I reckon that the risk will NEVER be obliviated) interruption or hijaaking.
One more thing, the exo-droid can be equipped with a self-destruct device, much like the rockets - when something is terribly wrong, self-destruct !
It doesn't have to be a "BOOM" kind of self-destruct - all the "self-destruct sequence" needs to do is to shut down the droid, in case interruption or hijaaking is detected and can not be prevented.
Life Supports and AI (Score:1)
Actually, making an exo-droid with a human being INSIDE is MORE complicated than making it without a living human inside.
You see, if you need to put a human inside the exo-droid, you need to keep that guy/gal alive ! That will mean you need to put in life-supporting systems, like air-circulation, temperature control, shock-absorbing devices, water and all the other kind of things. You even need to have two bags - one for urine, the ohter one for feces - so that human doesn't need to come out of the thing too often.
Without the space needed for the human body, and without the space needed for all the life-support system, the xeo-droid-sans-human will be more compact, and be more agile and more stronger.
You mentioned AI - actually, the AI needed for such a droid is not that much - although the current stage of AI development hasn't yet reached the level for a self-awareness AI, it is not that far away.
Plus, if the exo-droid is to be "controlled" or "complemented" by virtual-reality - that is, a human being in remote place can control it virtually, not that much AI is needed after all.
Jammed vs. intrutions (Score:1)
`It doesn't have to be a "BOOM" kind of
self-destruct - all the "self-destruct
sequence" needs to do is to shut down
the droid, in case interruption or
hijaaking is detected and can not be
prevented.'
"But then you've lost your mech. All the bad
guys would have to do is create a burst of
static long enough for the comunications to
time-out and sudenly your entire army has
shut itself down. You going to send some
guy out there to do a hard reboot on all
of them?"
You got a point.
Perhaps the droid should be equipped with AI to detect the difference between signal-jamming and signal-intrution.
In case of jamming that you have outlined above, the AI should be able to take over, and take appropriate evasive/contigency measure - just don't ask me what those measures are right now, I don't have a clue - but maybe the measure depends on what type of mission those exo-droids are sent out to accomplish.
That way, if the bad guys want to jam the signals, they can jam it, but the mech will still carry out their function.
Walker Droids (Score:1)
"It's tough to get the balance right for
a walker, without being in it or being
suspended and thrown around to mimic the
slave's movements in a remote control
center."
If I am not wrong, the Japanese have already demonstrated a bipadeled "walker droid" capable of climbing stairs.
It is not perfect yet, but then, the droid has much resemblance to human shape.
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:1)
On the other hand, if it is trying to dig out a person that has been buried alive in an earthquake or landslide, a human operator can use his senses directly (specially things like smell or sense of equilibrium that are hard to transmit remotely) and do a better job.
Re:Every adolescent geeks dream... (Score:1)
The Commercial use of this (Score:1)
http://theotherside.com/dvd/ [theotherside.com]
Huh? (Score:1)
Anybody else see this?
Anyway, back OT. DARPA/ARPA funds futuristic items. They always have, and hopefully, always will. Not all of DARPA projects turn out to be successes. Cutting edge stuff often (usually?) fail. However, some stuff do turn out to be winners. The general idea is to push the envelope. In theory this sounds great, in practice, things may be less than ideal.
A lot depends on the Program Managers who control the budgets and equally important put forth the initiatives. While it is tempting to speculate, I will not think about what movies this program Manager saw. Nah, obviously watched RoboCop.
Back Off-topic. Doubleclick?
Re:Walker Droids (Score:1)
Point two: tracked and wheeled vehicles already exist. I would not want to be in one of those, fighting men on foot in rocky/hilly terrain. A soldier on his feet is more survivable than a wheeled robot when the slope gets steeper than 10% (or maybe less) and there's rocks and gullys all over.
Right now, I think the best application for a combat bot is in the air. Even for infantry type work, small vehicles with weapons that can fly might be much much more effective than something that has to navigate terrai.
Re:Walker Droids (Score:1)
Re:Power armor (Score:1)
The quote is taken from the bear suit web site - 'tain't my fault, nohow.
Re:Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound! (Score:1)
I think they need to work on their physics a little more. If you try to do any jumping above a not-particularly-high height (you do the math), your brain goes "squish" inside the brain case and you come back down a vegetable.
Re:Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound! (Score:1)
I think you need to check your sources...
From the University of Arizona's web site:
...engine thrust will be reduced to insure that an acceleration force of no more than three times that of Earth's gravity is reached. This acceleration level, permitted by the throttleable Shuttle engines, is about one-third the acceleration experienced on previous manned space flights...
That makes for a maximum acceleration of 9Gs on previous space flights.
Re:Power armor (Score:1)
Re:Stand Back Sigorney! (Score:1)
Re:You know... (Score:1)
LK
Hmm... let me check my files.... (Score:1)
*sigh* (I still have the original submission on file)
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:1)
If you use an remote controlled body, the soldier might just abandon the 'bot when the going gets tough and reroute control to a new one. One 'bot lost.
But if he is INSIDE that thing, he's gonna fight for his ass for good.
Re:This isn't like the book! (Score:1)
It is not hard building primitive but effective traps for these things. All we need is bigger pits - what is it like, stumbling and falling with such a thing? And there are molotov cocktails, steel wire, sticks of dynamite,
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:1)
It's easier to just have to deal with making the suit, rather then the suit and AI to run it.
Re:People are Cheaper (Score:1)
Re:Power armor (Score:1)
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:1)
If the purpose of the exo is to do heavy-lifting and/or other tough/dangerous stuffs, putting a human inside still mean if accident happens, someone will get hurt, or may even die[...]Instead of putting a LIFE human being at the place of work, why not use the virtual reality technology
Cynical answer: so then the operator will be much more motivated to do the job properly and save the expensive equipment?
Yeah, but... (Score:1)
Well and good, but could you keep Windows 9x up for more than 49 days at a time?
--
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:1)
Those kits fit snugly so that it is just like wearing a suit and hopefully not difficult to run. I'm not sure how they countered the center of gravity problem however small increadibly heavy masses in the bottom of the shoes like the ones I've read about for aritficial gravity generation might work.
Project Grizzly (Score:1)
Re:Alien II inspired (Score:1)
Re:Flaws (Score:1)
There's also the question of how directly this system interfaces with the nervous system of the operator. Does it only interact indirectly, with all stimuli being fed to the user via some sort body glove and output being generated by tracking the user's movements? Or does it interact by patching into the nervous system at key points and overriding other nerve signals? Or does it go right to the source and get its input and output directly from the brain? All of these approaches have benefits and drawbacks. The body glove idea has the disadvantage of the latency that the poster I'm replying to was concerned about, simply because, no matter how fast the communication with the teleprescence unit is, it has to be slower than the nervous system because the nervous system hasn't been removed from the equation. There's also the huge engineering problem of how to map the movements of the operator to the teleprescence unit and the sensations of the TU to the body glove. The direct brain connection has the problem that the human brain doesn't control the body as effectively as we think it does. In other words, a huge amount of our movement is controlled by reflexes remembered by parts of our nervous system entirely outside the brain. To compensate, the TU would need to have its own neural net for its own rexflexes and the operator would probably need to spend thousands of hours training with the unit to be able to operate it well. Effectively switching off between two entirely different bodies could cause thus far unknown psychological problems in the operator. The idea of patching into the nervous system at select points, but well away from the brain doesn't fully avoid the latency problem, but it could provide a much more immersive experience than the body glove while avoiding its engineering challenges (not that there aren't huge challenges in patching into the nervous system in a workable manner). The dual body problems would probably be less than with a direct brain connection, though not eliminated, and a long period of adjusting and training would still be required. This solution would probably require a lot more surgery(though probably much safer surgery) than the direct brain connection, as it would require patch-ins at hundreds or thousands of locations throughout the body. With any of these solutions, of course, the frequently used sci-fi plot device of destruction/extreme damage to the remote unit causing neurological damage to the operator is probably a non-issue. Sure, it makes cyperpunk stories a lot more exciting, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too difficult (compared to everything else involved) to filter out any dangerous levels of feedback. Obviously epileptics and the like probably wouldn't make very good operators, of course.
The trouble with all of this is that, if you're going to make a remote controlled fighting machine, why make it anthropomorphic? It makes sense if you're making personal armor that it be shaped like the occupant, but not when you're making a remote controlled device. Admitting the fact that human beings, or at least animals with legs are better on varied terrain than just about any machine that exists today (maybe not if we're talking about small vertical take off/landing hovering devices), machines with wheels or treads beat humans for most practical military purposes. Maybe several classes of remote controlled or even semi-autonomous vehicles could be developed. Warfare would end up being like Command and Conquer or Total Annihilation without the resource gathering or unit manufacturing.
On the other hand, it would obviously be better if we could just get rid of warfare completely. Despite the coolness factor of all this, I'd be much happier with augmentation exosuits and remote robots being used in space or undersea exploration or even plain old terrestrial construction than being used to kill more people faster. I mean, I hear the "it will save [your nationality here] lives" argument, and it's all well and good, but that's usually at the cost of the other guys lives. I would personally love to be able to work on this sort of technology, but not if it's going to be used to kill people.
Being there beats the lag (Score:1)
Re:great for sex (Score:1)
Try "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" by Poul Anderson.
Re:Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound! (Score:1)
itachi
Waow, life imitates art (Score:2)
I like the idea because you basically have to come up with all-new technology. Power source, power train, and actuators need to be completely replaced with technology we don't have in order to make the result any smaller than a tank. Giant Robots for Everyone!
Non-computer research tends to be a lot slower than computer hardware or software development, so the exoskeleton they want won't be possible for decades. But the kind of software they want would be great for a highly mobile minitank.
Think Patlabor military labors. Put electric wheels at the end of 4 articulated legs. Drive the thing with a turbine/generator and hydraulics. Then develop the software needed to coordinate sensors and actuators at superhuman speed.
You get an armored vehicle that can drive cross-country at 100kph -- basically a cybernetic horse. Call it mechanized cavalry...
When they get gadgets that permit reasonably-sized exoskeletons, the software will be ready for them.
Nuclear Rocket Launcher (Score:2)
It was a 75mm bazooka on a tripod or a Jeep and it had a bug squash head nuke warhead. If I was at home I have a book with a bucha info about it. It was withdrawn after about two years in server.
Re:Mech Warrior IRL ? (Score:2)
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:2)
"An operator inside of an exoskeleton has
several advantages that your typical
remote-control model lacks."
And it has several of disadvantages too.
A. An android will not get emotional. That is,
an android will not be disturbed by his
girlfriends being "shagged" by another man,
or his mother-in-laws' keeping tab on his
bedroom behavior or whatever.
An android will just do whatever it is
ordered to.
B. An android will not take coffee break.
C. An android will not need pay hike, and it
will not strike if the working condition is
not ideal.
There wouldn't be an android branch of
AFL-CIO.
D. An android will not become a spy for a
foreign and perhaps potentially hostile
regime.
E. If an android is "killed", it is just a
broken machine. Just like your old XT which
is not working anymore - you just throw it
in the trash.
Now let's take at the advantages you have pointed out -
"First is more control and depth of input.
A person inside of one these would have
depth perception, periphrial vision, and
(assuming the machine's not too loud) audio.
Also, being inside allows for more control
over how the input is managed (eye
movements, etc.)
Unless the human inside the droid has a direct "open-window" interface to the outside - the human operator inside the exo-droid will "see" and "hear" through the video camera(s) and microphone(s) mounted outside. Perception-wise, it is no different from a human operator in remote location, controlling the exo-droid via virtual-reality.
If there is an "open-window" interface for the operator, then the human operator inside the exo-droid will be vulnerable to bio and/or chemical attacks.
If you insulate the operator from such a thing, then, the operator will have to "perceive" the world out there like I have just outlined above.
The "eye-movement" detector that you mentioned could be used in the remotely-controlled virtual-reality settings as well.
"Second, a human being, as an operator,
will be able to handel an exoskeleton
far more intuitivly than a remote-virtual
body. This will result in far less
training than would otherwise be needed.
We all know how to work a body."
True, if you put a human being inside the exo-droid, the "handling aspect" will be more intuitive, but, the human-operator will also have to face with everything that the "intuitive" things brings - including the direct blow if the droid falls down, and so on, and so forth.
But, if you think that putting a human being inside the exo-droid will mean a more responsive droid, I don't think so.
Imagine yourself without cloth on, and then, imagine yoruself with many layers of clothes on. Tell me in which case do you feel more agile, or easier to move about?
A person inside an exo-droid will be feeling like a person with VERY, VERY THICK cloths on. You can't move as easily, you don't feel that you are as agile as before, and each and every movement you make will be a chore.
Whether or not putting a human being inside the exo-droid, the droid will not be as agile as a living thing, at least not in the level of technology we have today.
"Third, you gotta admit, it's pretty damn
cool. It feeds out monkey-egos to
personally be able to pick up the
car/steel beam/whatever. You just can't
get that kind of rush via remote..."
True, the feeling would be awesome. But then, what we need is a tool that do heavy lifting and something that can do dangerous work for us, we need no egoistic operators acting like robocop, wrecking havoc to the ordinary citizens.
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:2)
Because its a pain in the ass to build a robot that is bipedal and has as wide a range motion/mobility as human being.
Instead of putting a LIFE human being at the place of work, why not use the virtual reality technology into work, and operate the exo-droid virtually - via remote control.
I suspect that while, pilots may be replaced more easily (i.e. sooner) than human ground troops, It will eventually happen. The problem for the exo-droid is that the human form + brain, though fragile is still much too versitle to be replaced completely. Most of the AIish projects that I've seen take a lot of space/energy/effort just replicating one or two of the features that are build into the sack of water that is the human body. Yes there is a japanese company that has robot that can walk up and down stairs... But can it crouch, sideslip, and jump or climb over obstacles?
--locust
Didn't the WWII Wermacht try this? (Score:2)
If I remember rightly, the problem then was the same problem as would afflict a modern-day exoskeleton - lack of a compact, efficient, and sufficiently powerful energy source. They tried compressed air, which only gave ten or so minutes of marching.
Justice League of America? Whazzzaap... (Score:2)
Watchin' the game, havin' a Bud [adcritic.com]...
Re:You make plans...they make plans,too. (Score:2)
DARPA: Do All Rightwing Assholes Post Anonymously?
Power Supply (Score:2)
Re:Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound! (Score:2)
Bear Suit? (Score:2)
LK
Re:great for sex (Score:2)
It's actually by Larry Niven. It's in his collection All the Myriad Ways and more recently in his N-Space collection.
Re:Open Source It! (Score:2)
1) Allow the user to carry a heavy load.
2) Reduce the effort expended by a soldier on a long hike, thereby increasing endurance.
3) Allow a person to walk or run faster than normal.
4) Allow a person to lift a heavy object, or do strenuous work with reduced effort.
5) Jump higher and/or further than normal.
Things like armor, weapons, environmental controls, communications, etc., aren't required or requested. DARPA just wants a basic exoskeleton to augment the human body, with a braindead simple way to operate it. Development of the other systems will come later, they're just looking for a base platform to start with.
My own Gundam! (Score:2)
Power armor (Score:2)
Re:People are Cheaper (Score:2)
Re:You make plans...they make plans,too. (Score:2)
DARPA slashdotted? (Score:2)
Seriously, is the site actually slashdotted (of course, it may not be when you read this) or is it my DNS's fault?
VR presence (Score:2)
The OI, as it were, hides that fact. The user thinks he's moving naturally, and the system compensates for him, appropriately.
-AS
Flaws (Score:2)
There isn't the bandwidth to transmit the signals, sensations, and control data?
If it's remote, why make it manlike, then? Why not, say, a small helicopter?
-AS
Stand Back Sigorney! (Score:2)
It's gotta have the welding torch, though. It's useless without the welding torch. A Queen Alien can withstand grendades, bullets, flame throwers, evil looks, and even a thermonuclear explosion, but the sight of a 1.5" long yellow flame causes her to have a coniption fit.
Re:Power armor (Score:2)
He he....great movie. Maybe he'd even get to meet a bear this time. I nearly died laughing when it turned out the finished product was so heavy that they had to bring him in by helicopter to where the bears were thought to be because he couldn't walk more than ten yards in the suit.
I remember seeing another cool exoskeleton idea from someone at NASA. He was working on the idea that kangaroos are extraordinarily efficient at bouncing around because they have large tendons in their legs that store the kinetic energy instead of dissipating it. So he built a lightweight exoskeleton framework containing a lot of springs to mimic the action of the tendons. Apparently human could operate (with a good deal of training) and get up to speeds of c. 30 m.p.h. Never heard anything else about it though......maybe he died, it looked frightening. You ended up being twice as tall as normal, strapped into a cage with a crash helmet on. I've always wanted to go sprinting down the freeway in one though.
Could be something simple (Score:2)
Too bad I don't have a background in biomechanics or mechanical engineering...
Practical example: the springwalker (link) (Score:2)
Don't forget Caterpillar (Score:2)
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:2)
An android will not get emotional.
The idea of emotionless androids is good for Star Trek plots, but it doesn't work in the real world. You would end up with an andriod with virtually no ability to select among goals (e.g., "duck!" or "charge!"), and less ability to create novel goals (e.g., blow up the bridge to stop the tanks). It would be nice if pop science to catch up to at least late-60's AI in this regard.
An android will not become a spy for a foreign and perhaps potentially hostile regime.
The same has been said of computers. Hopefully it would be a little less false in this case.
If an android is "killed", it is just a broken machine.
People get quite attached to their machines; cars have provided ample opportunity to study this in the wild. The situation would probably be worse with such a intimate relationship between the operator and the machine. Plus, if the cost of the machine is too high, it would be cheaper to lose soldiers (though it would have to be very high--I'm always suprised when I see how much it costs to train a grunt, let alone a technically adept grunt).
Perception-wise, it is no different from a human operator in remote location, controlling the exo-droid via virtual-reality.
Not quite. Visual and auditory feeds can be recreated faithfully, but balance and, to some extent, posture and other body-centered senses are more tricky. In fact, I'm not sure how balance could be recreated without actually knocking the operater on the floor when the suit fell over, which IMO is not terribly desirable. (OK, that inner-ear thing from a month or so ago would work, but that would require the operator to be seated, which would mean off-loading all of the details of navigating terrain to the robot itself.)
If there is an "open-window" interface for the operator, then the human operator inside the exo-droid will be vulnerable to bio and/or chemical attacks.
How? What's wrong with a transparent sheet of glass or one of those nifty LCD window-with-HUDs they were thinking of using on tanks a few years back? I consider a car a pretty open interface, but it can sealed against bio/chem weapons without impairing your view any.
A person inside an exo-droid will be feeling like a person with VERY, VERY THICK cloths on. You can't move as easily, you don't feel that you are as agile as before, and each and every movement you make will be a chore.
This is an assumption. A major part of this project seems to be retaining, or even enhancing, the agility of he user. If the net result was what you described, why in God's name would DARPA be working on it as an infantry rig? Infantry lives on mobility, not armor, and trying to reverse that would be a death sentence. DARPA isn't stupid, you know; they aren't going to ask soldiers to wear tanks everywhere they go.
And you left out the problem of lag. I can tell you from personal experience that even a hundred milliseconds makes a big difference in 'combat' situations (like Quake ;-). You would probably pick up that much just in the transition from the operater's controls to transmitter, let alone the time it takes for the stupid mech to interpret the message, act on it and respond. If you're fighting a live opponent (e.g., a TOW) and lose, say, 500msec, it could ruin you whole day. (Apparently tanks can dodge anti-tank rockets if they see them coming and have time to move; there was something about it on some .mil site I passed through several months ago. Very cool.)
All of that said, I do think that unmanned is the wave of the future. However, I'm betting on semi-autonomous vehicles where humans 'crews' are, at most, offering tactical and strategic advise to the drones. (Though I do think they will be in the field, for practical reasons.) Deathmatches are great fun, but if I need to get something done give me good old-fashioned real-time strategy ;-)
I gotta get me one of those (Score:2)
It's just such a cool idea. How about a macho looking one for those romantic evenings at home with the misses wouldn't go astray either. Or a beafy one to take down the pub and tear the bouncer a new orifice. The possibilities are endless!!
Re:Were it was? (off on tangent) (Score:2)
But if windows was GPLed, it would be Open Source, and therefore, opensource would be just as popular (maybe), now wouldn't it?
think about it...
Re:Cool (Score:2)
The thing thats really neat about Starship Troopers is that the coordinated team of MI (mobile infantry), maybe a few dozen, doesn't really give specifics, in their suits, can level a whole city.
What it means in practical terms is a single (expensive) suit and a well trained mobile infantry men can take the place of 10s maybe hundreds of infantry men. Making for a much smaller military, and military budget (its people who are expensive after all).
Really neat stuff, will be really interesting to see what happens during out lifetimes.
Spyky
Half-century old news. (Score:2)
They used to call 'em "Man Amplifiers" (which dates them to before the Women's Lib movement.)
More like "Waldo & Magic Incorporated" inspired. (Score:2)
Remote-control master-slave manipulators and the like dates from Heinlein's story "Waldo", back about world war II
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:2)
The latter is a bit safer - but a lot more expensive, and you can still get broken by it if something goes wrong and the limits don't function adequately (or maybe a sprain even if they do work).
That being said, there's a lot you could avoid by running it remotely (as you demonstrate with your landmine example). Working inside a radioactive, toxic, or biohazard environment come to mind, as does deep-sea, vacuum, earth-to-near-orbit, near-orbit-to-lander, etc.
But many of those have been anticipated as well.
See Heinlien's _Waldo_ for several of them. There's a story from similarly long ago by another author where the remote was biological, adapted for a methane environment, and controlled from orbit, etc.
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:2)
Dave
How about a really good API for it? (Score:2)
can you imagine... (Score:2)
Who's getting the movie rights? (Score:2)
Now people won't mistake him for being a superhero with that tacky nick of his.
It looks like ARPA has given up working on innovative things such as the Internet. It's probably time they had a break and start inventing toys for big boys like the Pentagon! Hmmm...maybe they'll also start inventing those plastic toy soldiers to recon work in future too.
One has to wonder whether will end up with giant mecha one day. Hopefully someone from Slashdot might build that giant penguin mecha from those Penguin Computing banners, so we can all pay a nice visit to someone at Redmond = ).
And the idea comes from ... (Score:2)
- In Homer's Illiad, Achilles could be considered to have personal armor, except his heel
... - Heinlein's Starship Troopers
- H.G. Wells War of the Worlds, where the Martians could be considered to be wearing some kind of suit.
- Asimov's Foundation, with his reference to personal force fields.
- Marvel's Iron Man?
- Macross
- Mobile Suit Gundam
Hey, maybe I'm stretching it, but surely somewhere there's a first?Cool (Score:2)
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:2)
First is more control and depth of input. A person inside of one these would have depth perception, periphrial vision, and (assuming the machine's not too loud) audio. Also, being inside allows for more control over how the input is managed (eye movements, etc.)
Second, a human being, as an operator, will be able to handel an exoskeleton far more intuitivly than a remote-virtual body. This will result in far less training than would otherwise be needed. We all know how to work a body.
Third, you gotta admit, it's pretty damn cool. It feeds out monkey-egos to personally be able to pick up the car/steel beam/whatever. You just can't get that kind of rush via remote...
Re:Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:2)
Inferior technology. (Score:2)
We are homer of borg, you will be hmmm...donuts...
Partial suit design issues (Score:2)
Like with the bionic man, he jumps off of a 8 story building, his legs can take it, but half his spine would be crushed from the impact. Or he can lift 1000lbs, but his should would fall off.
You have to take into account the secondary effects of the forces on the body.
All Goals not achievable (Score:2)
or its at least a really tough design...
significant increase in strength and payload capabilities means that it has to be self supporting almost.
Having shock absorbtion, ability to turn hips and shoulders, and to just keep your balance in a bipedal system all get compromised.
you almost have to go with caterpilar chains for movement, and so you might as well make a mini tank. Since a mini tank can't go that many more places where a big tank can go, you might as well keep your big tank.
In a lightweight frame approach designed to stress balance for some minimal strength inprovement, anything that enhances your strength, is going to hurt your flexibility. In a quake type combat environment, you need to be able to turn quickly (hip and shoulder flexibility) and aim/fire.
They should be designing boots that make you faster, jump higher in one suit that helps combat situations where nimbleness is needed, and a different strength suit for the guys who have lug around the rocket launchers.
This isn't like the book! (Score:3)
Seriously, though, it IS funny to see that every single thing in that list came from Starship Troopers, and I don't think any suit-based thing mentioned in Starship Troopers was excluded. I really have to suspect that the whole idea for this particular suggestion originated from one person reading Starship Troopers for the first time.
COOL.
-Billy
Um... Of course, I wonder what this will do to our warfare? It could make it worse... Or better. I'll have to ponder that. Of course, it wouldn't affect guerrila warfare.
Mobile infantry, anyone??? (Score:3)
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Re:Power armor (Score:3)
Testing On Suit:
1.Truck: 18 collisions with a three-tonne truck travelling at 50 kilometres an hour (30 m.p.h)
2.Rifle: Shot at with 12 gauge shotgun, using "Sabot" slugs
3.Arrows: Armour-piercing arrows, fired from 45 kilogram (100 lb.) bow
4.Tree Trunk: Two collisions with a 136 kilgram (300 lb.) tree from a height of 9 metres (30 ft.)
5.Bikers: Assault by three bikers -- the largest, 2.05 metres (6 ft. 9 in.) tall, weighing 175 kilograms (385 lbs.). Biker armaments: splitting ax, planks, baseball bat.
6.Escarpment: Jumped off escarpment, falling over 15.25 metres (over 150 ft.).
One has to wonder if the biker testing was planned or simply the spontaneous result of wearing the bear suit to the local biker bar.
Open Source It! (Score:3)
I don't have time to manage a project like this myself, but I would definitely contribute to such a project if somebody were willing to put it together (I've got a complete body cooling/heating system that I designed for a friend who races stock cars. It runs 6 hours on 4 D cell batteries and can maintain a skin temperature of 45F to 80F in a -20F to 130F environment).
Stephan Hawking Builds Robotic Exoskeleton (Score:3)
Reality and some info on current research (Score:3)
One of my professors is working on these projects right now and has been for awhile. The US military has had stuff in the past, just not what you may consider "exoskeleton." They loosely considered Rocketpacks and things like in Alien(s? when Ripley put on the big loader robot suit thing and kicked the mother's ass) as exoskeletons.
He is working on the propulsion parts right now. One of the problems they have with "skins" that make you stronger is that they can crush you. That would suck.
The leaping great heights is done using jet/rocket devices. As for the power problem, I think rotational inertia storage a la Rolex's Oyster Perpetual motion stuff would help if you have the suit "turned off." That could charge the batteries during unpowered walking or during rocket assisted leaping.
I am going to talk with him about working on these projects and maybe submitting a proposal myself.
shh, be real quiet. (Score:3)
its the sound of thousands of anime fans quietly chuckling with joy.
Maybe this time... (Score:3)
The most useful idea in this direction to date was from Kraft Telerobotics, which once built a backhoe with force-feedback controls. You put your hand in the gripper and made digging motions, with the backhoe following along. The force feedback was good; they claimed the operator could dig around a pipe by feel. Great for muddy trenches. Didn't sell; Kraft was geared to selling to researchers, not building contractors.
So it ought to be possible. Useful? I doubt it. Too many actuators and joints for a fieldable machine.
Re:Mobile infantry, anyone??? (Score:3)
shines the name
shines the name
of Rodger Young!
I swear to god I served under Sgt. Jelal's alter-ego in Okinawa. Little mustang-gunny lieutenant---apparently raised on the Sauron homeworld.
I sure as hell would have liked the powered armor at ANY time. My little stub legs sucked when I was humping machine guns.
I participated in a US / Westerners evac from a beach in Freetown, Sierra Leone, summer of '97. We took that beach without so much as harsh language: LAVs and aamtraks from the water (don't remember if there were LCACs), helos dropped the rifle and weapon companies, Cobras circling menacingly in the distance. I remember seeing fully armed Harriers just before we left the flight deck.
That day I distinctly remember thinking about the first battle scene in Starship Troopers. Mismatch.
Latter in the day, a truck full of teenagers in ragged Hawaiian shirts carrying rifles and RPGs rolled up near our perimeter. They saw what they faced and quickly retreated. They still nearly got annihilated by pointing their weapons in our general direction.
Here's my longwinded point: I don't care how much we have to spend, I want every American serviceman to have that advantage. The adversary should be totally cowed by the technological advantage. And when facing a more formidable adversary, I want that advantage to translate into the elimination of opposing force as quickly as possible.
American democracy is the worst form of government.
Except for all the others.
(Blatantly stolen from Churchill.)
Every adolescent geeks dream... (Score:4)
But seriously, robots like this have been science fiction for decades, it's interesting to see respectable institutions taking this seriously. I imagine successful implementation of this technology would again change the face of warfare. With anti-aircraft missles easily mountable on each soilder, perhaps air power will not always be king?
Something to think about... This could be the biggest paradigm shift until they discover a good repulsorlift and make hovertanks.
--
Do you think Hemmingway would have written so many novels if his typewriter had been capable of Open GL hardware-accelerated 3-D graphics?
Exoskeleton or Virtual Body? (Score:5)
Exoskeleton means something hard (skeleton) outside with softbody inside - which means, for every exo to work, a human must be inside operate it.
If the purpose of the exo is to do heavy-lifting and/or other tough/dangerous stuffs, putting a human inside still mean if accident happens, someone will get hurt, or may even die.
My own proposal -
Why not make a remote-virtual body instead?
Instead of putting a LIFE human being at the place of work, why not use the virtual reality technology into work, and operate the exo-droid virtually - via remote control.
That way, the exo-droid can do all types of things, including stepping on landmines, without having the operator risking injuries.
What do you think?
Exoskeletons - but what about the software ? (Score:5)
The whole exoskeleton population has a nervous twitch at the turn of each century or on a leap year
Cult of the Dead Cow develop a tool exploiting vulnerabilities in the exoskeleton security, forcing it to perform Monty Python Silly Walks and the Can-Can every Tuesday at 3pm.
The 'Eiffel 65 effect' - the suit locks up solid and the whole world turns blue
Each service pack applied to the suit alters its behaviour subtly. This damages user confidence and they require counselling
Shock troopers from the DoJ keep attacking you with chain-saws, to remove functionality which they feel shouldn't have really been bundled into the suit in the first place
Personally - I'll stick to waring the hides of dead animals - much safer and warmer.