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PS2 + Upscan Converter = Easy DVD to VHS Copying 117

Posted by Roblimo from the gnashing-teeth-at-the-MPAA dept.
Lots of people submitted the news: An EETimes story from last week that tells how Japanese gamers are using a (Japanese model) Sony Playstation 2, an upscan converter like the Micomsoft model XRGB-2, and an easily-obtained adaptor cable to make VHS copies of DVD movies. As an unintentional byproduct of its other functions, an XRB2 or similar upscan converter installed between the RGB output of a PS2 and the RGB inputs on a VCR apparently disables the Macrovision encoding used to prevent DVD copying. This trick is almost certainly illegal, and the "problem" will surely be fixed before Sony starts exporting PS2s in quantity, so don't get your hopes up, okay?
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PS2 + Upscan Converter = Easy DVD to VHS Copying More

PS2 + Upscan Converter = Easy DVD to VHS Copying

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  • Re:And the problem is... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    >I'm not sure what the problem is. I can hook my DVD player up to the TV, then use the video outs on the TV to go to my VCR and voila, copied DVD tape. Just using conventional technology, no computer (PC that is), no PS2. The average joe could easily do this. Thank the personal video recorder industry for that hack.

    You've never actually done this have you?

    If you do this, you WILL end up with a COMPLETELY unwatchable (but listenable) tape with 90% of the movies out there (the other 10% don't have macrovision licensed onto the DVD). The picture will fade, colours will bloom, the picture will glow brightly, etc... ad infinitum.

    NO TV can repair a tape recorded on a normal VCR with macrovsion. Once the macrovision goes through the AGC (which is on all home VCRs, maybe not some $$$$$ industrial models), the signal is destroyed by the VCR itself.

    If you don't beleive me, rent something like The Lion King, or some other Disney animated movie, and just TRY recording it. Disney is well known for using the latest, and harshest anti-copying techniques.

  • Can I recommend 8 track? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Get any tape recorder, and simply hold the microphone against the speakers when you play a CD. Especially effective if you have kids running around

  • Re:Jesus, can you get any more blatant? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If he'd said "I'm not getting my hopes up," you would be justified in drawing that conclusion. As it is, though, he's clearly just acknowledging the undeniable fact that there is at least one person out there who wants to make such copies.

    Sorry, Esperandi, you'll have to find another excuse for your ad hominem attacks.

  • This is already well known (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Macrovision is easily defeated thru the use of 'picture stabilizers'. Why is this possible? High-end projection TV's -- those used in Home Theatre's -- don't deal with Macrovi$ion so the signal must be stripped.

  • Re:Why should we get our hopes up? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Gotta disagree there. If I bought a movie on DVD, of course I watch it on my DVD player, but I also have an old VHS in my bedroom hooked up to a small 13" TV. I'd like to think I can watch the same movie in another room without having to buy another copy on VHS (which may not even be in print anymore). Solution: dub it to tape, watch it there. This isn't illegal as far as I know, and if it is, then screw'em anyways. I can think for myself and determine what is right and what is wrong.
  • If you happen to have a supported PC-based DVD player, Remote Selector [visualdomain.net] (an extremely lightweight windows program) will allow you to disable region checks and macrovision. It works flawlessly with my Creative DXR3 decoder card.

    The DXR3 card has a Video Out port right on it, so it's perfect for plugging into your VCR if you're into that sort of thing.

  • However, there are limited legitimate reasons for wanting to copy a DVD to VHS.

    I have one DVD player, and two rooms where I watch videos. So I've used my Apex to copy a movie I bought onto DVD so it can also be watched in the other room. (Actually not for me, for my kids, but the effect is much the same.)
  • Agreed, this causes me much grief. I bought a DVD player a couple months back, and It's almost useless to me.

    When I sit in the livingroom, I can watch DVDs just fine, but with my TV in the office, that is hooked up to the back of the VCR via RCA, I can't watch DVDs. This sucks.
  • Virtually any DVD player, with the addition of an upscan converter, can be made to copy DVD titles to VHS. This is not something that Sony can fix, and it's not something peculiar to the PS2, unless the article is very badly translated.
    Now, if you could disable Macrovision from within the PS2, without the need for additional hardware, that would be a different story.
  • I usually buy DVDs because I want better quality than VHS. My question is why bother recording your DVDs to VHS?? I don't get it.

    "Electric Relaxation" - ATCQ
    - Bwana
  • If they've managed to spread the idea that making an archive copy of media you've purchased is in any way illegal, they really do need to be stopped. They damn well know it is not illegal so they've tried to make it technically infeasible. They bought enough legislators to pass their DMCA but I don't think they can buy enough judges to make it stick.
  • Wasn't it something like "don't just do it -- PS2 it"?
  • Go back and read again. The PS2 RGB gets sent through an RGB to NTSC converter. Comes out as your garden variety RCA jack video.
  • "Lots of people submitted the news" way back when it was still news.
  • If its illegal, its illegal. Simple as that. DVD publishers will come down on people who do this like a ton of bricks, and rightly so.

    Now weary traveller, rest your head. For just like me, you're utterly dead.
  • You know, normal VHS tapes being used as digital storage.

    Were they just forgetten in the DVD frenzy?

    They would be an excellent CHEAP way to record those DVD movies without picture degradation. It has been almost a year since I have heard any developments on this front.

  • Let's see - Macrovision strippers have been around cince 1982. I used to sell them constantly in the video store. They are 100% legal as they are "video stabilizers" in fact you can call it a macrovision stripper legally. It's illegal to market it as a "Device to make copies for you to sell to your friends or give away" but it's legal to make 99,000 copies for your personal use. (I make at least 2 copies of every tape I buy, store the origional and let the kids destroy the copies.) If you use SVHS decks you get killer quality. if you use VHS..... well VHS just sucks in every way.

    This is NON news in any way.... a DVD player with a video stabilizeer can copy DVD's to video tape!!!! hell every dvd player can do that.
  • For instance I got a free DVD of the Matrix and didn't yet have a DVD player so I wanted to convert it to VHS until I got my DVD player..

    Also VHS is widespread and sometimes you might want to watch the movie you paid for and not want to carry your DVD player with you.. sort of how sometimes I listen to my CD's copied to tape or MP3 rather than as a CD just because it is handier for what I'm doing.. If I had kids I'd probably copy my movies to VHS and give them an old VCR to watch the movies on so that my originals wouldn't get scratches and grubby finger marks all over them.. :)
  • I'm not sure what the problem is. I can hook my DVD player up to the TV, then use the video outs on the TV to go to my VCR and voila, copied DVD tape. Just using conventional technology, no computer (PC that is), no PS2. The average joe could easily do this. Thank the personal video recorder industry for that hack.

    Sounds like the media trying to hype up a problem that exists in many other places already.

  • Building on the TiVo review from a while back, ReplayTV (like TiVo but better IMO) strips out the Macrovision, so you could copy DVD to VHS gleefully.

    Check out the info at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/elund/ptv .htm

  • And with the right software, you can disable Macrovision and region codes on your DVDROM. Well, you have to stoop to using Windows for the software I use, but the point is that there are less complicated, less expensive ways to defeat Macrovision for most DVDROM owners.

    The software I speak of is called Remote Selector. I won't bother giving the link, to keep the site from getting slashdotted too badly. If you really want the program, you'll search for it and find it easily enough.

    --
    Ernest MacDougal Campbell III / NIC Handle: EMC3
    Got Spam? http://spam.gunters.org/ [gunters.org]

  • Well, I've only had a problem with macrovision once. Really pissed my off though. I'd just gotten the matix on dvd and wanted to watch it with a friend. I took my dvd player and disk over to his house and started to connect them to his TV. Slight problem, it was an older set and didn't have rca inputs, only a coax to antenna converter (yes it wasn't a great quality TV but it works), no problem I thought, I'll just plug the rca cables into his VCR and use the coax out from the VCR to connect to the TV. We start up the matrix and get the horible brightness variation crap that is macrovision. I don't care if it screws up video tapes, but it sucks when it screws up the picture on the TV!
  • I never understood why everyone found it so difficult to copy DVD to VHS either. I copied several films (ummm, for testing purposes only) and the VHS output was just as good as any rental video. I certainly wouldn't think that they just forgot to put the copy protection on... it was the latest James Bond film (whose name I can't recall at the moment).

    Perhaps it's because my VCR is so old? It's one of the very first front-loaders.
  • Charlie Chaplin was used for the original IBM PC.
    He may have been used for the Jr and the XT too.

  • I think I remember it as "how ya gonna do it? PS/2 it!" It was pretty funny to me at the time (I was a pre-teen then). I thought the Charlie Chaplin ads (for PC Jr.?) were better - some bits were laugh-out-loud funny.

    Still nothing to top the Apple 1984 ad though....


    #include "disclaim.h"
    "All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
  • One of the interesting sidenotes is that IEEE1394 (aka, Firewire, aka, iLink) now has SCMS (serial copy management system) built into the protocols. This is to allow it to be used in a home theatre system (ie, DVD to digital TV) but not for digital dubbing.

    One of the other posts mentioned encryption, but I don't believe this is the case. I think it uses a simple bit flag that the downstream receivers are compelled (now by law) to honor.

    Of course, in the Akihabara section of Tokyo, you can get little black boxes that remove SCMS from digital/optical audio. Once we start seeing DVD-R player/recorders on the market, it'll only be a few weeks before we see SCMS-removing kits in Japan.

    The kits are illegal in the U.S. due to that nasty law. :( This is unfortunate.

    One legitimate use of backups is for parents with kids. DVDs are nice because your kids can watch "The Little Mermaid" 300 times without wearing out the tape, but DVD discs themselves are rather fragile and get scratched. It'd be nice if we were allowed to make DVD-R backups for our kids to beat up on.

    The same argument can be made for PlayStation games....

    Karen
  • Most newer DVDs component outs have Macrovision on them. Just the MV I though. The colorstriping MV II can't be generated on the component out.
    So what's needed is a circuit that would 1.restore Vsync signals 2. combine the two color component signals into either sVideo or composite.
    Only then could you exercise your Fair Use rights.
    ---
  • The reason that the MPAA has the copy protection on the DVD is so that people cannot make a copy from a DVD to a VHS tape. Then sell the tape which would be of higher quality than a store bought tape (Just like my casset copys of my CD's, they are better quality than a store bought copy).

    They are going to screem "pirate!". But arrrr me mateys we all know that this is all about power and control.

  • I have a Sony Camcorder, model number escapes me at the moment, which has video inputs through an SVHS cable as well as the old coax.

    Copying ANY macrovision encoded VHS/DVD on to a Hi8 tape shows no ill effects and the picture quality is very much superior to VHS.

    You can then get a very good second generation copy from this onto VHS.

    I used it to take some movies with me on a vacation to France.

    You can't take a DVD player with you, you can take a mini TV and you are already taking your camcorder, so why not?
  • I do remember seeing that wording, but the source is the movie industry (when playing a movie, it is in the "FBI warning").

    However, I *beleive* the actual law provides for you to make and keep one copy, i.e., you are authorized by statute no matter what the studio wants. Sorry, at real job at the time of this writing so can't research it properly. I am sure others know where the relevant info is and will let everybody know.

  • In the USA, individuals ARE allowed to make a backup copy of whatever they buy.

    But I am sure the MPAA will make an issue of it.

  • Macrovision (the company) which has been very profitable recently is on the acquisition trail again picking up business software licensing specialists Globetrotter. story [yahoo.com]


    Bill Krepick, the company's president and chief executive, said in an interview at the SG Cowen Global Technology Conference here that the acquisition positions Macrovision for the growing transition to electronic software distribution.

    He cited projections from market research firm International Data Corp that fully one-half of the world's business software will be licensed electronically within five years, replacing traditional packaged software distribution.


  • I'll be in Japan next week. Specifically, in Shinjuku, Tokyo, just eight or so train stops from the great toyshop that is Akihabara Electric Street. While I don't see myself copying many DVDs (don't have a VCR) I might want to get one.

    Does anyone have a jp-model PS2 and can describe some of the things that work and some of the things that don't? Specifically, have you been able to get around region encoding on the DVD side? What are your display options? I'd like to run it through the monitor - don't have a TV.
  • So your TV strips out the Macrovision copy-protection? What kind of TV is it?

    HH

    Yellow tigers crouched in jungles in her dark eyes.
  • One can satisfy his/her desire to make quality copies of DVDs to VHS simply by purchasing an Apex 600A from Circuit City for $170 +/- (as mentioned in the Slashdot article from 3/21).

    I have one and have been very happy with it. Both the country code and macrovision hacks seem to work very well.

  • Here's another way to dub Macrovision [macrovision.com] encoded content easily: use your ReplayTV to do it.

    Over in the CmdrTaco's Week with Tivo [slashdot.org] thread, I posted this message [slashdot.org] about Macrovision and Replay. It turns out that Replay can record Macrovision content quite easily, and the early units (the 2000 series) do not reproduce the Macrovision encoding when outputting. I cannot speak for Tivo's capability in this area.

    This might be short-lived, however, because both products have licensed Macrovision's technology [macrovision.com] for incorporation into future units.


  • Could someone please enlighten me as to how this is any different then VCR-VCR (Analog-Analog) copying, which has been around for ages?

    This is all hype. The MPAA is insanely overreacting.

    The only real concern surrounding DVD's is a fear of digital-digital copying, which makes identical copies. Whats the big deal if you can capture it to analog?

    I can do this with any video source by hooking up the TV out on my video card to the Composite Video on my TV tuner card. And Voila! I'm free to capture it. But it goes through the dreaded Digital-Analog-Analog-Digital.

    Nobody likes that...whats the big deal?
  • "Federal law provides severe civil and criminal penalties for unauthorized reproduction, distribution or exhibition of copyrighted motion pictures..."

    You are granted a license for the one copy which you purchase, you are not authorized by the copyright holder to copy the DVD which you own, therefore, this trick is clearly illegal.

    As much as I wish it were otherwise, that's the law.

  • Thank you very much for this info. Too bad, Cameraworld's out of stock (!) but you can order at list price from Sima.

    My mother just produced a video on Valentines (she's an expert on the history of them) and guess what, VHS with Macrovision. Apparently it is to be shown by the Ephemera Society of Great Britain but they had trouble copying to PAL, maybe they don't have as much experience with Macrovision there. Sure it's best if she has a DV or Beta tape but either a corrector like Sima's (available in England?) or maybe the TV video out fix mentioned earlier would do the trick for now. The studio that made the original tape is charging an arm and a leg for making PAL tapes and only in bulk.

    When I was working on a digital video (Quicktime) project I heard it was cheaper to convert to the format native to your company (somebody wanted us to make a PAL output box since conversion is apparently very expensive since you have to rent a big deck). Anybody know a good shop in London, or New York, that can do this kind of easy job with high quality, quickly, at a reasonable (low budget) price? Maybe printing a DVD too? We're getting a bunch of hits at the site I made for her (telebody.com/valentines). Thanks again.
  • I haven't tried this, but I am fairly sure that you can record to vhs from your computer with a graphics cards that has a tv-out connection.

    Just play the DVD in full screen and bingo?

    (Has anyone tried this?)

    Or you could use x10's dvd anywhere http://www.x10.com/products/vk53a_dd1.htm and "broadcast" to your video recorder.
  • Most DVD player software for windows requires that the video card is able to macrovision it's tv output(composite/s-video) before it will play to the tv out. Of course there are hacks for this, DVD Genie [inmatrix.com] comes to mind, but this won't work out of the box...You could also use an exteranl scan converter(VGA->S-VHS/Composite) box, but the quality would sureley suffer...The dvd anywhere might work though, considering that IIRC macrovison works by supressing sync pulses or putting them out at the wrong intervals, the Composite->RF->Air->RF->Composite conversion might cause those sync pulses to be regenerated, i'm not sure on that though...anyway, with the Apex AD600 able to turn off macrovison and reigions for $160, this playstation 2 thing is no big deal
  • It says that because under US law you can make a backup copy of your stuff. So if you own the game you can download the rom because it can be considered your backup copy of the game. If how ever you do not own the game then you are breaking copyright.

    -----
  • Well, Rob has completely validated that he wants deCSS to be legal so that he can illegally copy DVDs, and he seems to believe that the rest of the Slashdot community feels exactly the same way.

    Sorry Rob, but not all of us are thieves like you yearn to be.

    If you don't know what I'm talking about, read the blurb again, note the part about not getting your hopes up.

    Esperandi

  • As an earlier post stated, Macrovision is easily removed using one of the many video "stabilizers" out on the market.

    Since there are several types of Macrovision protection (at least two types for DVD-Video, as well as other types for VHS tapes and even CD-ROM), it's important that you ensure that the stabilizer you're buying is appropriate for the device/format that you're going to be using it with.

    When I bought my DVD player last year, I was incensed that I could not hook it up through my VCR (I hook up everything through my VCR, because I like the convenience of its A/V selection controls.) After doing some research on the Net, I decided to play it safe and get the most feature-rich (and expensive) box on the market. I thus chose SCC ColorCorrector Pro Series [simacorp.com] from Sima Corporation [simacorp.com]. It retails for $169.99, but I was able to get a great deal [cameraworld.com] from cameraworld.com [cameraworld.com]: $99, with no tax and free shipping (within the US only, I think).

    I absolutely love the SCC. Not only does it perfectly strip Macrovision protection from everything I've thrown at it (both DVD-Video discs and VHS tapes), but it provides an array of controls for tweaking the video signal to your liking. This is great for improving contrast and color balance on video coming from a marginal source. It even supports S-video connectors to ensure minimal signal degradation (FWIW, I don't notice any degradation, and I'm pretty picky.).

    Disclaimer: I don't work for either Sima or cameraworld.com, but I just thought I'd pass on this tip to those interested in defeating that infernal Macrovision protection once and for good.

  • This is funny now, but just wait until DVD-Audio comes along, and we'll see who's laughing.

  • Charlie Chaplin was not used in the IBM ad campaigns. It was Chaplin's character, "Little Tramp", that was used -- played by some actor, and not Chaplin himself.

    Many people seem to confuse Little Tramp with Chaplin, but Chaplin was much more than his "silly" character. He was an accomplished and influencial film actor, writer, director, editor, composer, and producer [imdb.com].

  • I'd like to put some thirty second video snippets on my web site, which is a critical forum devoted to film. I know the snippets themselves are protected by fair use but my question is whether or not can I legally use DVDs and VHS tapes as the source for these clips. If I cannot, then where the hell am I supposed to go to get the video?

    BTW: Hack I use to get high quality video from DVDs into a computer:

    1) Dub DVDs to an analog Hi8mm camera or deck.
    2) Put Hi8mm tape into Sony Digital8 Handycam (these also read Hi8 analog) with FireWire port (aka iLink/IEEE1394).
    3) Suck it into Final Cut Pro or whatever via FireWire.

    Night

  • You write as if the Media Giants have already won! Of course it's illegal to redistribute copies, but to make VHS copies for the kids to watch in the downstairs TV room with no DVD?

    We are right now still engaged in a battle for our rights to transfer content licensed to us to other media. Things like the DMCA threaten this, but as far as I know there's no law which keeps me from using a playstation like this (though Sony is probably liable for not meeting the DVD spec). Please don't talk like it's already over -- slashdot is one of those places which tends to keep its head on straight.
  • There are inexpensive devices which will restore the sync on an analog signal. These have been around since they started putting copy protection on VHS.

    Still, the fact that this is on a Playstation is pretty cute. Maybe this will become (yet another) new battleground for consumer rights.
  • Exactly. Why spend $300 +import charges +$215 +import charges for all that equipment, for the ability to watch dvd's on a lousy player, and then to copy them to crap media? Just get a sub-200 dollar apex player.
  • So that you can make copies of DVDs you rented or borrowed from a friend.
  • Yes, I understand that, and I also understand that in some places it's illegal for it to rain, etc. etc. etc. I stand by my original point :-)
  • Maybe.

    I don't care.

    I bought the disk and the player, and if I want to paint it pink, I will paint it pink. If I want to nail the DVD to my wall and make a really pretty and expensive wallpaper out of it, I will do that.

    Am I the only one whom it strikes as vaguely amusing that years and years were spent pushing the idea that I can do pretty much anything I want sexually (unless it's under 18, or involuntary) in the privacy of my own home, but I'm legally restricted from taking a screwdriver to electronic equipment I actually own?

    Go figure, I think that's pretty funny.

  • I don't think it is illegal to lend a movie to a friend to watch. It gets into a sticky area however if you lend them a personal copy you made and you still have the original (or vice versa), so that you both have the movie and could potentially watch it at the same time. The copy is allowed, but should only be used if the original becomes faulty.
  • Well, since DVD is on a CD media, it would be nice to be able to back up my movies in case they get scratched. I used to make tape backups of my CDs for this same reason. Personally, I don't see why *that* should be illegal.

    I guess when the bad people do bad things, we all get punished.

  • A recent news article posted at the NY Times website quoted one hacker as saying "Wow...i can use this new 1Ghz athalon chip to play Pong! SAWEET!" In rural Ohio, John McPhereson displayed another great way to put technology to use. "Dude" He is quoted as saying, "I just got this bomb ass Sony component system with a 200 disc changer - now I can use it to dub all my CD's on to cassette! rock on!!"BR>
    With the DeCSS cat being out of the bag - why go back to VHS?


    -FluX
    -------------------------
    Your Ad Here!
    -------------------------

  • ....and rightly so.

    Unless, of course, that person is demonstrably making the copies for their own personal use and not for resale. In that case, they should have the right to make as many copies as they want using whatever means they want because they own the media and they've bought the rights to view its contents.

    -- WhiskeyJack

  • I personally think that by finding features that allow people to do illegal or immoral things will cause the industries (movie, music, ect..) to win their respective trials (dvd-linux and css, mp3 with the RIAA).

    When it can be shown to the judge that people are taking advantage of this sort of thing, our (the geek community and anyone who wants freer acess to information and media) credibility and cause will be demerited.

  • In slashdot today: (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward writes "US supreme court has just ruled that everyone must walk with their eyes closed so they can't watch DVDs and copy the information within into their short- and long-term memories."
  • The funny thing here is that compared to DVD video, the quality loss introduced by macrovision-afflicted recording is only an incremental step more than that introduced by VHS.

    If you're already happy watching grainy, low-res video with washed out colors, do you really care that the brightness goes up and down the whole time?

  • Linux boxes were doing this years before Playstation 2 became the media darling. All you needed was an LML33 and a DVD drive, plus you could do color correction.
  • The idea is such that you rent a DVD and make a video tape copy. You see the movie and get a copy for your low cost library.

    Yes, VHS isn't that great, but given the average setup in the average home, it's not that bad, and if there are children, they can watch a movie hundreds of times, wear out the tape, make a new one. But some DVD players are sensitive to scratches, so if the kids scratch the disc, that screws your copy. Making copies is also handy if you have multiple TVs but only 1 DVD player, assuming the other TVs have VCRs too, so that you can at least watch the movie. In the analog equivalent, say I have a car with a tape player, and do not want to buy a CD player to replace it, so I make a copy of a CD and play the tape in the car. Actually, I mostly use minidisc for audio, but you get the point.

  • No matter how much you encrypt/decrypt this data, there are at least 2 points along the way where the raw RGB is available:

    After DeCSS and before encryption by the video card


    Isn't the whole point to leave the RGB encrypted by at least one layer through the entire path?


    After decryption in the tv/monitor and before it hits the analog tube control.


    I don't think Hollywood's particularly worried about anyone copying their precious intellectual property by digitising the voltage on their CRT.
  • Under the DMCA, circumventing copy protection is illegal, unless you're doing legitimate security research (a defense that, as the DeCSS case shows, one pretty much has to be a respectable research facility to use).

    Apparently the copy protection on VHS tapes can be circumvented with "signal amplifiers". Are these now illegal, or do they have a legitimate purpose? Does this trick apply to the DVD implementation of Macrovision?
  • Apparently, to suppress such devices, Macrovision built one and patented it, purely to sue anyone who makes them for infringement.

    Does the patent apply to all "picture stabilisers", or are they "prior art"; or does the new Macrovision (on DVDs, as opposed to the one on commercial tapes) thwart this hack?
  • This has (IMHO) come about as a consequence of digital recording.

    When cds were released, we could all record cd -> analogue tape and that was ok as the recording was lossy and therefore not a major problem. This was great as we could play music we'd bought in our cars and walkmans (walkmen?)

    Then along came DAT, DCC and MiniDisc and suddenly it was possible to make digital recordings or music we'd bought (well licensed etc) so there was a panic and they came up with SCMS (serial copy management system or something like that) which limited the number of digital copies you could make. You could (can) still make analogue copie however.

    Spurred on by this exciting deveopment, macrovision was added to video tapes to stop people renting anc copying tapes (this was from the time when it took many years for a film to be released on video except in rental stores) and then subsequently added to all pre-recorded movies.

    Que the 21st Century and we have the precedent where copy protection has been included in some form or another on pre-recorded media for years such that the MPAA (and others) can pretty much do as they will.

    Hohum

    troc
  • I want to make a VHS copy of "Seven Samurai", so I can take it round to my friends house and watch it with them.
  • Firstly, as you point out, the "bypassing of access control mechanisms" clause does not come into effect until October of this year.

    Secondly, as I keep saying, CSS (and macrovision) do not control access to a work, they controls use of the work. Therefore bypassing them is not illegal. Copyright law has clear distinctions between "access" and "use" - "access" is acquisition. See the American Libraries Association's comments.
  • Under the DMCA, circumventing copy protection is illegal,
    The DMCA doesn't prohibit circumventing copy protection, it prohibits circumvention of access control protection. I'm pretty sure (IANAL) that CSS is not access control - it controls use , not access . "Access", in terms of copyright law, is acquisiton. "Use" is, well, use.
  • However under the Fair Use legistlation, which is in effect in most countries with a recent copyright law, you can make copies for your own use.

    You still cannot redistribute them or even borrow them to your friend but you can make copies so that if the original media becomes faulty you can still use your backup.

    <rant> I know that the media giants have been trying to make this illegal for as long as there have been VCRs. This time they might even succeed with the new additions to the copyright law and the new technology.

    We the people must fight it at every turn.

    As consumers we must demand that we get what we want. We don't want obscene copy protection. We want Fair Use.

    ALL copyprotection schemes are flawed. If it can be viewed, it can be copied.

    Fight The Power.

    Power=Money
    Money=Big Business
    Big Business=Mega Corporations
    Sony=Mega Corporation
    You do the math.

    </rant>

  • plugging all the 'security' holes and hacks in DVD's those suckers are gonna cost $125 a pop. The movie and music 'industry' should take a clue from the failures of the software industry, in the 80's, to implement hardware copy protection on consumer software: is was an escalating techno-war between producers and consumers that caused so many problems for ordinary users (can't make a backup, original floppys get damaged - well, we aren't buying from THEM anymore) that it is no longer common practice. They really outta get a clue that not everybody buys pirated warez - a vast majority of ordinary movie buyers are above buying zip-lock baggie-ware from some scum pirate operation. If they make a movie viewing experience pleasant they'll make $$$. If they get their undies all wadded up over someone "instantaneously distributing a high quality full length feature film to 6 billion people via the net" (which is BS) it's going to go the way of the laser disk - a very small market techno oddity, not the mass market they'd like to get in a head lock.
  • I've had the same problems with normal VHS tapes. Sucks when the "copy protection" screws over legitimate users. In fact, I've been screwed over by copy protection and region coding so much that when I buy my PSX2 I'm not getting it unless I can mod it ignore macrovision and region coding. That way when I need to hook it through a VCR to plug it into my TV to watch Japanese Anime (or whatever) that I've legally ordered on-line, internationally, I actually get a picture I can watch.

    Annoying when you have to "fix" a new product before it will "work".

  • For some reason, I find the variations in brightness to be very annoying. When I first got a DVD player, it drove me crazy and I wondered if there was something wrong with the mastering or the MPEG decoder. Later on, I found out about macrovision and the "fix" for the problem, which was to buy a video switch so that the DVD video signal could go straight into the TV.
  • Well, I don't know about you, but I like my porno movies the old fashioned way...grainy and low-res. These new-fangled damn DVD players have too much quality. Did you know that porno chicks are actually uglier than sin? Until DVD, who knew? I was content watching barely viewable porno and eating cheese puffs...and thanks to the PS2, DVD won't ruin my porn sessions any more!!!
    -Jer
  • A DVD-ROM drive and Remote Selector [visualdomain.net] let me do this very thing right now. I don't see as there's so much newsworthy about it...
  • You can't put Macrovision on pure RGB signals. That's why I bought a deck with component outs -- and they've been around since the first generation of DVD players.
  • You can NOT make back up copies of the ROMs! [Unless you are a video game developer] While the backup law allows you to make a backup, that backup has to be an *EXACT* copy. Thus, the copy of the ROM you have on disk is legal only when used to create another ROM from it as backup. But the use of the disk file is not covered by the backup clause - it is not operationally necessary to the operation of the game.

    If you are a legitimate videogame developer, however, things are different - you may have a copy of the disk file of a game (not necessarily the one you're working on). This has been recognized in the courts. See this web page [emuhq.com] for more details. Root of this document is here. [emuhq.com]

  • But Macrovision encoding does not generally exist at all in the digital video, it's added after decoding by the Macrovision chip. (So an EXACT copy of the digital video stream wouldn't include Macrovision!) Macrovision wields a big legal club to force companies to include that chip in any video product. (Thier reasoning apparently is that if the original video was Macrovision encoded, as an equipment manufacturer, you'd be aiding and abetting pirates if you didn't ensure your output was also Macrovision encoded.)

    Either ReplayTV or Tivo (I forget which, now) got beat up about this last year because their first boxes didn't have a Macrovision chip, therefore, movies recorded on the box could be cleanly recopied onto a VCR. Macrovision came in swinging their lawyer club, and the digital box guys ran for cover. (How do I know? At my former employer I was asked to quote the Macrovision retrofit. We declined.)

    Personally, I think Macrovision's business model is little short of extortion. Macrovision only has about 50 employees, but look at what they made last year! Do you think really think anyone would pay them that much if they weren't afraid of what would happen if they didn't?
  • (In response to all the posts in this thread...)

    I'm not sure if this would have been legal a few years ago, but it is definitely illegal now, thanks to the DMCA [eff.org]: "No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title."

    Remember, the principle of fair use says that it is not illegal to make "backups" of a copyrighted work. It does not say that you have a right to make backups. In this case, it is still legal to make backup copies of your DVDs; it is just illegal to circumvent copy-protection measures in the process.

    Apparently the Librarian of Congress (?!) can declare exceptions to the above, but I'm sure we'd have heard about it by now if such an exception had been made. Until that happens, it's illegal to break Macrovision. (At least, after the provision takes effect in October -- why hasn't anyone brought that point up yet?)

    Disclaimer: I don't like the DMCA.

  • PS2? (Score:2)

    by Pike ( 52876 )
    An EETimes story tells how gamers are using the IBM PS/2, with its good ol' proprietary micro channel architecture, to make copies of DVD movies and old game cartridge ROMs. IBM will almost certainly "fix" the problem before it continues to ship more units in its effort to dominate the personal computer market.

    -JD
  • It's not illegal until you sell the tapes. One could buy the DVD, rent a DVD player and copy the DVD to VHS, all perfectly legal.. it's the same as putting your CDs on tape for use in your walkman or car.

    //rdj
  • Ok.. so it's illegal in your country.. not in mine.. or most other people's..

    //rdj
  • It'd be cheaper to tape it off pay-per-view. $3.75 and you have your own copy on tape. I just don't see much point in spending oodles of money in order to copy DVDs, when you can get it off pay per view (if it's a new movie) or buy the tape for $10.

  • Sony is making an upskirt converter?
    Oh. Sorry, misread that.

    I guess I was thinking about Sony's prior gaffe; a videocamera's infrared night-vision feature that when used in daylight rendered thin clothing as transparent [193.122.103.82].

    (Infrared Upskirt Converter =anagram>
    Trick run: render of privates,
    Or it transferred pink curve)
  • However, there are limited legitimate reasons for wanting to copy a DVD to VHS. Not many people have a TV that can't handle Macrovision, and very few people to back up their DVD's to tape. Some people do, but not many.

    However there are several reasons for wanting to connect a DVD player to a TV through a VCR without using it to record, such as the TV not having enough inputs. Macrovision usually thwarts such efforts.
    --

  • ....the MPAA sues Sony to take the PS2 off the market while pressuring Japanese police to arrest the head of their engineering department?

    -- WhiskeyJack

  • That's exacty what I was thinking? Why would you want to go from a DVD to VHS? There is no point. If I wanted VHS, I'd buy it rather than the DVD and get it a hell of a lot cheaper.

    Yeah, it's neat that somebody hacked it, but it's like going around boasting that you reprogrammed the PROM in your car to only go 25 miles per hour. (Only useful if you valet park alot or have teenagers that want to borrow it)

    kwsNI

  • OK, so by a slight bit of technical jiggery-pokery, you can copy your DVD to VHS.

    Funny thing is, I've had the technical capability to copy audio CDs to cassette tape for years. No one has seen the need to 'fix' CD players to prevent people like me from doing this. The entertainment business has not been bankrupted by people doing this.

    So why is this any different ? In building clever hardware to prevent writing VHS tapes, Sony will increase production costs of the PS2, increase complexity and decrease reliability - it will be one more component to go wrong. It isn't even a bit that is needed to make the PS2 work ! The entertainment industry will have their DVDs protected for now.

    (*RANT)The only people missing from the equation is us, the consumer. We will pay for these 'design modifications', get more complex, less reliable products, and be expected to pay for the resulting repairs when they go wrong. Solving the problem by technological means is stupid, particularly when the problem is not technological in the first case. OK, there is a threat of piracy. Piracy is less of a problem when you are giving genuine value for money, and don't have a business process supporting a vast array of expensively upholstered intermediaries. This is the real problem faced by the entertainment industry. They need to downsize and restructure, like the rest of us have had to do, or die. Their lawyers will not help them ultimately, because ultimately they rely on the patronage of people like you and me, and someone will eventually 'get it' and take their business from them.(*/RANT)
  • I guess this is a consequence of the complexity within current computers/consoles/home AV equipment etc.

    Here in the UK, a large number of DVD players are eitehr sold or are later modified to play Region 1 discs so we can buy movies from the States where they are much cheaper. A consequence of this mod is that macrovision is disabled (for better or worse etc) Most people aren't even aware of this aspect of the mod, or even care - we just want our movies :)

    I would think that the harder Sony try to remove this 'feature' from the PSX 2, the more people will hack deeper into the hard/software and find alternate methods - after all the Sony DVD players are all easily modded to allow the same functions.

    I would think an interesting debate would be on teh merits of copy protection and whether it's necessary at all. Specifically the macrovision and/or region coding that goes on - i.e. is macrovision ok to stop people copying dvd -> video and Region coding bad (mmmmkay) or vice versa or are we all against everything?

    Personally I have no problems with macrovision as I don't plan to copy dvds but I HATE the Region coding with a vengence and that's why I had my DVD modded and will certainly have my PSX 2 modded when I buy it later this year (or whenever they are out in the UK)

    Just some thoughts, I know some of the have been hashed out before but I fancied a quick typo :)

    Troc

  • Not illegal: a bit of background (Score:3)

    by Alan Shutko ( 5101 ) on Tuesday March 28, 2000 @04:28AM (#1166011) Homepage
    This isn't exactly new. You can go to Best Buy and purchase Macrovision scrubbers, and have been able to for some time. These have a number of completely legal uses, not the least of which being using a DVD player with a TV/VCR combo unit.
    Or wanting to be able to use a DVD player and VCR with a TV with only one set of composite inputs. I got a composite AB-switch, but it still annoys me that I can't switch things with the remote.

  • Ooops! Let me rephrase that (Score:3)

    by unitron ( 5733 ) on Tuesday March 28, 2000 @04:16AM (#1166012) Homepage Journal
    I was confusing the Slashdot story with the one that just aged off of The Register. The convert RGB to NTSC part is still accurate and not that difficult.

  • Re:How is this trick illegal? (Score:3)

    by Jeffrey Baker ( 6191 ) on Tuesday March 28, 2000 @06:46AM (#1166013)
    You are making an assumption that is not gauranteed to be true. The assumption is that every DVD is subject to restricted copy and distribution. Some DVDs may not come from a corporate mega-studio, and they may be freely distributable.

    Macrovision, OTOH, enforces copy restriction even when that is against the copyright holder's wishes. So you can see that mandatory Macrovision is simply a tool used by the consumer media industry to ensure that no independent source of DVDs becomes popular.

    BTW, if you think openly redistributable works of art are not a phenomenon, I present Ani Difranco as an example. Her CDs and tapes are very widely sold, and come with this rather loose copyright notice: "Unauthorized duplication, while sometimes necessary, is never as good as the real thing."

    -jwb

  • Cool! Is there an equivalent for audio? (Score:4)

    by CaseyB ( 1105 ) on Tuesday March 28, 2000 @04:23AM (#1166014)
    This is great, but is there an equivalent for audio?

    I have a large collection of high-quality, digital audio recordings on CD. Is there a way that I can transfer these pristine recordings to a lossy, low-quality, non-random-access, fragile, progressively degrading magnetic medium? Something like audio cassettes would be ideal.

    Oh, and if these stereo recordings can be converted to mono during the process, so much the better.

  • This is *SO* not newsworthy . . . (Score:4)

    by alhaz ( 11039 ) on Tuesday March 28, 2000 @06:59AM (#1166015) Homepage
    This is so *Shockingly* mundane a thing to hear that I'm really, truly saddened to see it wasting bandwidth.

    You know those little boxes you can buy to let you duplicate VHS tapes that they sell in the back of Popular Mechanics? They really work, and they still really work for DVD players. All of them. Not just PSX2. And they're essentially the same thing as the upscan converter refered to here.

    Lemme 'splain the concept behind Macrovision.

    One of the qualities of the VHS format is that the horizontal sync signal is weakly recorded. This wasn't due to some corporate conspiracy, It's just Not a Very Good Format. VHS doesn't record the whole video signal, including not recording the whole sync signal. This is why even non-copy-protected VHS tapes look like crap when you copy them. Let me reiterate, this is NOT because of the fiendish plans of Mr. Valenti. It's simply because VHS is crappy technology.

    "Macrovision" is essentially the act of intentionally providing a weak sync signal. That's right. All they do is make it weaker.

    This works brilliantly, because Mr. Valenti has made it illegal to fix a VCR so that it has it's own amplifier on the sync signal. You take a poor sync signal, record it badly, and you have a really crappy copy.

    TV's don't suffer from this because they are designed to recieve the whole video signal and not just some of it. Thus, you can get good video plugging DVD directly into your tv, and you can get good video plugging VHS directly into your tv, but when you plug DVD into VHS there's too much loss between the two to end up with a good signal.

    SO, insert something that makes up for the poor sync signal, or prevent the sync signal from being degraded, and everything is hunky-dory.

    Any questions?

  • How is this trick illegal? (Score:4)

    by Carl ( 12719 ) on Tuesday March 28, 2000 @03:22AM (#1166016) Homepage
    I don't see how or why this trick can be illegal. It might be that distributing the result of this trick to others may be illegal. But making a backup copy of the movie shouldn't be illegal. Or maybe someone wants to extract a small part of the movie to be used in a (critical) review about that movie. I think that should be fair use.

  • Sony will not *fix* this (Score:4)

    by Breace ( 33955 ) on Tuesday March 28, 2000 @06:43AM (#1166017) Homepage
    because they can't/don't have to.

    Macrovision is a copy protection method that takes advantaged of the AGC (Automatic Gain Control) in a VCR. They make the VCR think that the Gain need be adjusted all the time and hence a bad recording.

    Devices like scan converters recreate the video signal (without Macrovision) and are not sensitive to the AGC themselves.

    In other words, this is not a problem with the PS2. This trick works with any Macrovision encoded video (like from any DVD player). It's known and people have been doing this for years.

    Actually, a better way to get DVD's to a VHS is to use a PC based DVD decoder and disable the Macrovision on there. For at least a few hardware decoders I've seen software and/or hardware patches that allow disabling the Macrovision encoding. That way you don't have to go throught the scan-converter which will undoubtly degrade the video quality a little.

    Breace.

  • Once VCRs are outlawed, only outlaws will own VCRs (Score:4)

    by whyde ( 123448 ) on Tuesday March 28, 2000 @04:23AM (#1166018)

    In order to control content access and delivery, the MPAA is working on (recently patented) secure digital tv/monitor interfaces which send data in encrypted form from a computer (or game console) to the monitor, which means the following:

    • CSS is used on the physical recording (DVD)
    • A second encryption is performed inside of the DVD player or computer's video adapter, to prevent copying (re-digitizing) the analog RGB
    • Decryption is performed by the tv/monitor of the "secure" digital input before display on the LCD/tube

    No matter how much you encrypt/decrypt this data, there are at least 2 points along the way where the raw RGB is available:

    • After DeCSS and before encryption by the video card
    • After decryption in the tv/monitor and before it hits the analog tube control.

    This only makes coyping inconvenient, but will certainly make ordinary use more complicated and expensive.

    Used to be, the government was concerned with providing access to technology (like TV) to the widest possible audience using the most straightforward, most easily implemented solutions to encourage proliferation of new technologies.

    Nowadays, it really seems like the government is a puppet of anyone waving enough money in front of capitol hill.

    That's progress for you.

    @home, working on my manifesto...

  • Re:Has everyone forgotten Beta? (Score:4)

    by Rahoule ( 144525 ) on Tuesday March 28, 2000 @08:33AM (#1166019)

    This (supposedly) only works with pre-1989 Betas. Around 1989, Hollywood finally confronted Sony and forced them to make Beta vulnerable to Macrovision, just like VHS. Of course, by then, it was a little late, as Beta was irreversibly going down.

    I'm on a mailing list called the Beta Informer [pacifier.com], and there has been quite a lot of discussion about Betamax's apparent invulnerability to Macrovision.

    Here's a quote from issue #129, in a submission by Dan Petitpas:

    The reason Macrovision doesn't work with Beta is because of the way the system was designed.
    All VCRs have automatic gain controls (AGC) circuits that modulate the video signal, boosting weak video signals and clamping down on too strong signals.
    But Sony [the inventor of Betamax] put the AGC circuit on Beta's inputs, as was done with previously with audio recorders, where the signal is modulated before it is recorded.
    JVC put the AGC circuits into VHS's outputs to compensate for poorly recorded tapes. Sony, because it tightly controlled the quality of the format between only three other manufacturers, expected Beta tapes to be recorded as well as possible and used the circuit to make that possible. JVC, with alliances with over 80 other manufacturers, took the philosophy that the quality of the recorded tapes would vary so much by manufacturer that it had better modulate the signal output.
    Macrovision took advantage of this. In the sync signal it puts a big, white, pulsating "block." As the "block" overmodulates periodically (every 30 seconds or so), the AGC tries to clamp the signal down, causing the rest of the sync signal to weaken. As Macrovision found, the trick is to allow the sync signal to lessen to the point where a VHS recorder couldn't lock in on the sync, but a TV had enough of a sync signal to lock in on and boost using its own built in AGC.
    This was why different TVs reacted different ways to the different tapes. Each AGC would handle the signal somewhat differently. Also, some tape distributors turned down the Macro signal so that their tapes would play better. Other manufacturers were more worried about piracy and turned up the Macro signal. A couple of studios didn't sign up with Macro at first, and put out Macro-free tapes for a while.

    [Some pre-1985 TVs would show a distorted picture when used to view a Macrovision-protected videotape.]

    Beta decks worked the same way TVs did and basically helped fixed what it saw as a weak sync signal, which allowed you to make Beta copies of VHS Macro tapes.
    For a while, most studios did not put Macro on Beta copies, but when they started using the same video tape master for both VHS and Beta copies, Beta tapes were sold with Macro on them. This caused more annoyance for Beta users than anything else. I have a copy of the darkly lighted film Aliens where the damned "flashing" of the sync signal is quite apparent because it turns black areas at the top of the screen to turn grayish when it does its "thing."
    You could make VHS copies of Beta Macro movies with no problem because of where the ACG control was wired in, but I think you could make Beta copies of Beta pre-recorded movies because the sync signal was stronger to begin with and Sony may have had its AGC set not to be fooled by this.

    From another contributor:

    Macrovision uses a different format, I believe, and I've heard of some later Betas being affected by it as well.

    From Mr. Petitpas:

    I have heard this -- that Sony was sort of forced to wire in an AGC circuit to the outputs so Macro would function as it did with VHS.

    Anyway, I've heard a lot of people talk about making perfect copies of DVDs and copy-protected VHS tapes on their Betamaxes. I tried that a few times with my SL-100 SuperBetamax (made in 1986), but I still got a mild lightening and darkening of the picture.

    I still don't fully understand the relationship between Macrovision and Beta decks. If the AGC on Betas is wired to the inputs, wouldn't that cause the Beta deck to produce screwed-up recordings of copy-protected tapes? It would be clamping down the stronger video signal.

    What I do know is that Macrovision (on videotapes) mainfests itself as a really bright white line just above the picture (in the out-of-band area) on your TV, and most VCR's AGCs take this into account when determining the picture's brightness (which is why videotape copies have that "flashing" effect). Also, if you're ever watching a commercial video and the screen appears bright or distorted at the top of the picture, that's Macrovision at work. The brightness at the top of the picture is especially noticeable at the beginning of the video, during the black screens between the trailers and the antipiracy notice.

  • Many Consumer DVD players can disable Macrovision (Score:5)

    by jbridges ( 70118 ) on Tuesday March 28, 2000 @03:46AM (#1166020)
    For instance the first Sony high-end model the DVP-7000 from a few years ago had dip switches inside that let you disable the region blocking and Macrovision.

    The APEX 600D mentioned here at Slashdot has the "hidden" menu that lets you disable Macrovision.

    Here is a list of region/macrovision cracks for home dvd players (many done with a keysequence on remote control)

    DVD Utils Home DVD Cracks [libertysurf.fr]

    If that is already slashdot'd, try one of the mirrors through:

    DVD Utils [dvdutils.com]

    So basicly, the PS2 hack is not news. You can go out today and a consumer DVD player with a known Macrovision disable feature, and copy movies to video tape to your hearts content, and avoid all the Macrovision glitches.

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