Ars Digita Founder Philip Greenspun 151
Philip Greenspun is (in no particular order) a photographer, writer, software engineer, Web designer, philosopher, and entrepreneur, and is now the "main man" behind the free Ars Digita University program. Years ago, a gentleman with Philip's wide range of interests and skills was called a "Rennaisance Man." Today -- especially in Philip's case -- the phrase "Internet Man" may be more apt, but the idea is the same. Post questions for Philip below; we'll select 10 of the highest-moderated and send them to him Tuesday afternoon (US EDT). His answers will appear, Open Source-like, "When they're ready."
General interview notes/updates: Richard Stallman has been putting plenty of thought into his answers; they should be along within the next day or two. The SCO Presidents have promised to have their answers to us in time for publication Thursday. The band Metallica has agreed, through their publicist, to do an interview about Napster and its effect on the music industry as soon as they finish the music video they're working on now, hopefully later this week. Next week's scheduled interview guest already knows the answer: 42. Yes, we're talking about Douglas Adams. So don't panic, okay?
- Robin "roblimo" Miller
Re:Renaissance (Score:1)
online universities? (Score:4)
Open Source and "When they're ready" (Score:1)
I'm not objecting to Phillip producing his answers when they're ready -- they are after all his answers. I'm objecting to the mischaracterization of the way Open Source works.
-clay
Travels with Samantha (Score:5)
I'm wondering you can describe what happened as a result of exposing so much of yourself online. I remember reading the comments on the story, and there were certainly a wide range of responses, but I was wondering if you noticed any larger consequences?
12 hrs/day * 6 days/week == severe burnout? (Score:5)
I go to a major university, there's no way I put in 12 hrs a day of work, and I'm still already stressed out. And that's with multiple subjects so I can take my mind off of one and switch gears occassionally.
Do you have any plans to counter potential burnout?
Why do you think this is good? (Score:3)
After all, the main point of a university program is social interaction that goes along with it - learning how to interact with people in both working and social environments, how to deal with team work and so on. Your course does none of these - in fact I'd say it instead fosters yet more alienation and aloofness of the part of the "hacker" culture, which already seems to have turned its collective face away from the "real world".
Surely what we as a community need is more social interaction rather than this kind of faceless online experiance. We need to encourage geeks to actually leave their rooms, turn off their PCs and get out there and meet people face to face. Without these kind of experiances, the geeks of tomorrow who will end up in positions of power, will be cold and removed from the emotions that make us human - our ability to empathise with others and share their feelings.
My question is, do you think that this kind of thing is making the average geek a colder and less "human" person than their offline counterparts?
Interest rates (Score:3)
Oracle vs. open source (Score:1)
The Ars Digita University is cool, but... (Score:5)
It seems to me that CS degree work should be opened to more people who would advance by demonstrating the ability to do real work integrating important theoretical CS ideas with real world problems. Yet the very format really excludes a great deal of people, especially those who have to work to support themselves.
Does the Ars Digita program offer any real advance in CS degree program quality or accessibility to people who would benefit themselves and society the most?
Industry interactivity (Score:3)
A large part of going to college and getting your degree is the networking you get to do with your industry. For instance, a lot of universities have guest speakers (/ job recruiters) come in to speak to their seniors about what skills they need to join the industry. Many of my friends have gone on to work for these very companies because of this. Will there be anything like this in your program or is it just a purely educational experience?
kwsNI
Question (Score:5)
A) Where would you like to see this program move towards, in relation to universities;
B) Do you plan on a "pay" version, for people who can actually afford to pay?
C) The qualifications (and I took a *real* good look at them, I really want to go!) are a bit unusual - in that they require SAT scores. I miss by 50 points, but isn't that exactly the attitude that you're trying to escape - that you need a standardized test to determine intellegence, that you need cash to determine eligibility? Or am I reading too much into the program?
Doones
Changing face of the web (Score:1)
You appear to be one of the early "movers and shakers" on the web, having dealth with web technologies (client- and server-side) since almost the beginning. During the early days of the web, there was a palpable sense that imminent and vast changes were about to take place; social orders would be shaken, the nation-state would collapse, and a new economic order would arise. Now, almost ten years later, reality has brought most of those idealistic visions down to earth. What potential do you still see for the web, especially as it regards democracy, freedom, and other non-economic issues?
-Rev.Are any Open Source databases production ready? (Score:5)
I've read "Philip and Alex's Guide..." and hoped to implement your kind of website on my own server. But then I noted that Oracle requires thousands of dollars of licensing fees.
Have you used any of the Open Source databases like MySQL or Postgres enough to recommend one of them for a light-usage site?
Or perhaps none of the Open Source databases are yet ready for production use?
Wealth and Merit (Score:3)
I was therefore surprised to find your elaborate dissection [photo.net] of how Bill Gates doesn't deserve his money.
Of course he doesn't deserve his money! No economy has ever managed to allocate wealth by merit! But, by losing sleep over that fact, aren't you participating in something very like the nosiness you elsewhere deplore?
Rennisance man vs. Internet man (Score:5)
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Re:Are any Open Source databases production ready? (Score:1)
Education and the Poor (Score:4)
(if anyone gets what i'm saying and can phrase it better, PLEASE DO SO!)
A question... (Score:2)
(In recent days, there was the sad announcement of Philip Katz' untimely demise, through addiction, and more than a few famous figures have ended up mentally, emotionally and/or physically destroyed through the combined addiction and stress of that fame.)
No free lunch (Score:2)
There can not be free lunch. Of-course you get what you pay for. OSS community funds this thing? That's great.
I am on a com-sci program at the university of Toronto, it's a tough program. We have courses that actually DO TAKE up to 4 hours a day for 4-5 days and there many courses at the same time. Very intensive, and this lasts for 3-4 years because you must take up to 21 credits (1 credit = 2 half courses (1 semester) or = 1 full course(2 semesters). Now how do you expect people to learn and remember and be able to apply in course work all the material that is done by other universities?
On the other hand, if you cut down on the material, should you call it a University or a college?
I SUGGEST that you in fact do CUT DOWN on the material, and make yourself a college and concentrate more on the practical side of the material instead of trying to be something you can not be anyway - a full time university. You will be MORE USEFULL to many people if you were a college that taught some specialty programs for free. Otherwise you may even kill your students, and still they will be behind other universities in their education and working materials. For god sakes, the Engineering students at UofT already have like 6 courses a day each one 2-3 hours for 5 days a week + lab work!
Will the "University" be open or biased? (Score:5)
I just can't help but think that the University will be biased in some way. Certainly, it's biased towards rote memorization in applicants (a rather inflammatory earlier statement alluded that a score of at least 1400 on the SATs was a requirement for being bright), but will the technological course material follow? I know that there's an Ivy League ethos that surrounds many people and institutions, and it would be a shame if that same sentiment ruled out "less bright" technologies as well as people in this new University. (And for the record: I work with extremely smart people -- some of whom never graduated college -- who use none of what Ars Digita uses, so I may be a little biased myself... ;-)
Another thought just hit me: Couldn't this University been seen as a thinly veiled way to promote Ars Digita's technological choices? Honestly, I don't know many people that actually use Tcl or AOLServer to do much, especially in a production environment. If future gradutes of your program are well-schooled in using those products, wouldn't they necessarily think of these technologies first when doing future work? Won't they be biased? So can't this just be seen as an "Tcl/AOLServer Mill"?
Again, I don't mean any slight or to seem like a troll, but this whole thing sounds to me like it'll be as well-rounded as any MCSE learning might be.
-B
OO vs. SA? (Score:3)
Do *you* ever suffer from burnout? (Score:4)
Other big shots (Score:1)
As a Engineering student not majoring in CompSci, but extremely interested in computers, I think I will be seriously considering ArsDigita after my stint at Columbia University is over.
But speaking of columbia fathom.com [fathom.com]... My question to you is, does this attempt at putting an insane amount of currently unavailable information on the web a good thing. Currently, I don't exactly follow their profit model, but I have a feeling that they will release all sorts of digitized content for free, but for the whole kit and kaboodle they will charge. Perhaps for a correspondence degree or something.
Does this just increase the digital divide? Isn't the whole Ivy situation an educational divide in the first place? Am I working for evil? Is the hi-fi audio section of your web site a little absurd? (sorry about that last one...)
Thanks.
I am posting anonymously 'cause you know...
Why use Application Servers? (Score:3)
While you support stable technology such as AOLServer with TCL scripting, under what circumstances would you consider a fancy XML, Java, 3 tiered, buzzword compliant solution such as Cocoon [apache.org]?
Trouble recruiting engineers? (Score:1)
Opinion vs. Fact (Score:5)
My question is this:
In most of your writing, you often put some statement out there as fact, when it is actually an opinion. In many cases, I can spot it as such, and just roll my eyes a bit if I happen to disagree. Are you aware that you do this, do you worry about it, or do you expect your readers to spot it and take it as an opinion? Or are you a typcial college professor whose opinion IS fact, and won't be told otherwise?
The reason I ask is that I do a little writing myself, and I find it a unnerving to put something in print that becomes more-or-less unchangeable. I.e. I just worry about being "wrong" either because I am plain wrong, or wasn't clear in my statements.
Why tight coupling to a RDBMS? (Score:5)
My Question is:
What's the merit of tightly-coupled-to-Oracle architecture of acs(ars digita community system) as a web application platform? ZOPE is in my mind as the not-tightly-coupled-to-any-RDBMS web applicaton platform?
Some people came to ZOPE because they can not afford an Oracle(in my case, the prefernce of python to tcl played a lot).
Or any comment on the web application servers/platforms which does not have the honor of being commented upon in your web tools review [photo.net] is apprecitated GREATLY!
I know I have almost no chance of being moderated up. But please do nice to a question simillar to mine but written by a native English(or European language) writer.
Alternate way to do it (Score:3)
Would you consider doing your online university in a fashion where it is based more on participation in all facets of enterprise-level projects than on typical schoolwork?
Techno-social considerations (Score:5)
And no, "Trial and error." is not an acceptable answer.
--
Michael Sims-michael at slashdot.org
Re:Why do you think this is good? (Score:2)
This *might* be a trade school.
Re:>> ! * ' ' # (Score:1)
God damned! That is hilarious!
Keep up the great work!
(of course that was pure sarcasm)
Re:Are any Open Source databases production ready? (Score:1)
There are multiple problems with the above statement. MySQL is neither free as in speech nor as in beer. Read their license [mysql.com] for yourself. I have never understood why in a community where the nuances of a license are so critically important, mySQL seems to get a free pass.
The other problem is that mySQL does not have transaction support, and so calling it a database at all is a stretch at best. mySQL is a filesystem that uses SQL as a query language. Certainly this is useful, but comparing it to relational databases is dishonest. Of course mySQL is fast: It makes no attempt to ensure transaction semantics.
One could understand the community's attitude towards mySQL if no truly open source alternative existed, but PostgreSQL is both open source, and a "real" database.
your Lusenet message boards (Score:1)
Re:What gave you the inspiration (Score:2)
Plus, I want to know the answer to this question. Please moderate it back up.
Re:Are any Open Source databases production ready? (Score:1)
"Of course, Oracle can run circles around Postgres, which suffers from pathological brainlock in some cases, but not nearly as often as you might expect and folks are working on improving performance."
I also note that ACS/pg is really waiting for PostgreSQL 7.0, which is still in early beta.
Irc classrooms (Score:1)
Competing Archetectures (Score:1)
Accreditation (Score:1)
First off, let me just say that ArsDigita is a great idea and with the raising prices of CS studies, it could become very popular.
Your web site and some posts mention that accreditation might be a problem for certain employers. Couldn't students write equivalence tests to get the degree which their employers require? (ie- University with a similar curriculum could offer equivalence test) What do you think about ArsDigita University associating itself with a few accreditation organisation?
Iamfor the not-so-privileged (Score:1)
How could/would/should someone who doesn't have all of these opperotunities teach themselves what they need for our digital age?
I know how much it peeves you that MIT is so economically hard to get to [this hits home for me, the EXACT and ONLY reason I am not at MIT now is the price], but not every university can afford hardware for kids to play with. Most elementary schools dont have any hardware or the ability to teach the math, or other skills, that our kids need to get ahead...
Did you have access to an education that helped shape and direct your future? If not, how did you get to do what you did? How would you recommend that others help themselves to where they can be self-supporting and have fun?
thanks
btw, I just got reading travels w/ Samantha for the second time, it was even better than the 1st... not only one of the best sites of '93-'94, but now as well...
Babes and/or Hunks (Score:2)
Geez Phil - I have tried all of your advice [photo.net] but so far nothing. I had an almost naked [kevino.com] picture of me on my website, as well as a cool David Siegel Killer Site Entrance Tunnel [dsiegel.com], and a domain named after me [kevino.com] and still experience and incredible dearth of non-300 lb., non-unbaked-apple-pie-faced Pi-to-the-quadrillionth-decimal reciters have called or written. Perhaps these things only work with AOLServer? And say, if you still have that original Mach 3 razor from Eve's test drive, I wonder if you'd want to sell it?
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"Rex unto my cleeb, and thou shalt have everlasting blort." - Zorp 3:16
Re:Are any Open Source databases production ready? (Score:1)
I guess I should have checked out mySQL a bit further. I compiled it on an Alpha server and it appears to work. I didn't look at the license. My bad.
A colleague says that he uses mySQL to back his database-driven sites, so I (wrongly) concluded mySQL would be appropriate.
Better do my homework before blabbing on /.
Re: socialization (Score:1)
As one half of a parental team that successfully home educated three kids through high school, I think I can tackle this one.
Throughout our experience with our children we were often upbraided with the mantra, 'but what about socialization?' The fear being that our kids were somehow isolated from contact with their peers. What we found was that this perceived fear was a red herring and indicated that the questioner didn't like the fact that we were trying something different (that's gotta be bad, nobody else is doin' it). The reality of the situation was that socialization was minimized within the academic setting (to the benefit of actual learning) and took place outside of those academic boundaries quite nicely.
We involved ourselves with other families that were educating their own children and lasting friendships were forged. Even if we hadn't made an effort to cultivate outside activities, there was daily interaction with neighborhood kids and the other kids at church.
The bottom line is that ample opportunities exist for socialization outside of the classroom or lecture hall. Those that look to the collegiate life to supply them with socialization are often wasting their time and their/our money. If a person can't make friends now, going to college won't make them any more socially adept than going directly into the work force.
carlos
What is the next revolution? (Score:3)
Fast forward just a few years. Now I don't go anywhere new without a printout from MapQuest. My phone books go straight into the trash, they are antiques now. About half of the things that I purchase are bought online. The web is my only news source (no, not just slashdot). Nearly all of my work is done over an Internet connection, making even my physical location moot. The growth of the web, even in just the last two years, has changed my life considerably. I would consider it a revolution.
So, what do you think is next? Is there still enough untapped potential in the Internet that it can drastically and unexpectedly change our lives yet again? If so, what kinds of things do you see driving that change and where do you see us heading? If not, what direction is the next technological revolution coming from?
-BW
Online Education and the Digital Divide (Score:2)
My question speaks to the potential parallels of these problems in online education. The most apparent of these is commonly known in the media as the "digital divide". At this time only roughly 50% of American households are currently online and the overwhelming majority of those households don't have broadband (cable, xDSL, etc.) Many educators claim that simple HTML is insufficient to provide quality education and that a very minimum some sort of voice technology in an interactive mode would be required to meet proper educational goals. Others claim a great deal of success with current technologies like message boards, email lists, and searchable online class materials.
Admittedly I am uninformed as to the mechanics that Ars Digita plans to use to reach its students and I am also aware that you have chosen to deal only with a highly selective group given overall global demographics (i.e. only post-baccalaureate candidates need apply). With all that said, I would like to ask how or if you plan on dealing with the digital divide. While this is intriguing in terms of online education, feel free to expound into others subject areas (the political process, consumerism, etc.).
Why bother... (Score:1)
You might be able to find 30 people for the meatspace program who possess the mental ability, the spiritual strength, and the necessarily high level of physical fitness required to get through the program. That is dependent, of course, on the applicants suffering from sufficient mental maladjustment that they would actually volunteer to have absolutely no life for a solid year. It's also dependent on whatever extraordinary support measures these folks can get, be it the support of their peers or from other sources (that, I hope, you are contemplating providing).
But for online folks? Fugedaboutit. It just won't happen. No one will be able to maintain that pace for that time while motivated only by their internal drives and the flickering images on a CRT.
My question, then, is why bother with the online component since it's clearly doomed to failure? Or, do you define success for the online component differently, e.g. if people drop in and out, taking only a bit here and a bit there - would that equal success in your eyes?
Re:What gave you the inspiration (Score:1)
http://www.photo.net/wtr/dead-trees/ story.html [photo.net]
what's it like running a company? (Score:1)
Has starting up your own succesful company and the daily activities associated with running it changed you? Or would you say the changes are more due to someone like eve
[this is a distinct separate question from my other post]
Re:Wealth and Merit (Score:1)
Obviously you are speaking in a strictly moral or physical achievement sense; Bill Gates has not physically himself earned his income, nor has he come by it through playing fair.
But of course his actions have earned him his money, regardless of the more moral merit that you're looking for.
It's a matter of predatory economics. You can be a large fat herd animal, or a lithe hunter. While the herd animal spends its days grazing and getting fatter, the hunter stalks the weakest of the prey, and profits from the large amount of calories the herd animal has "earned."
Certainly the hunter has "earned" his calories, even though he doesn't spend his days grazing.
And of course the species that thrives the most is the one that can successfuly survive and reproduce the most effectively.
Of course predatory economics isn't just or fair, and doesn't fit well into a belief system of equality. For certainly if there is a top of the food chain of business, there has to be a lot of people being fed upon.
Re:Trouble recruiting engineers? (Score:1)
Security (Score:3)
One of the central problems with information security is that application developers don't know how to do secure programming. They aren't taught this in school, or really in any of the places to learn programming. Typically, they have to learn through pain, or from the places that teach security rather than programming.
Do you think that the little bit you've got on the curriculum now is sufficient, and if not, do you have plans to develop that further? If you want a real differentiating factor for your graduates, there's a good one.
problems with "regular" education (Score:3)
Poor for want of a degree? (Score:4)
Are you saying that if the poor had a prestigious degree, they would cease to be poor?
Reminds me of a little story/joke:
A very devoutly religious man went to church each morning, and prayed heartily: "Please Lord, let me win the Lottery."
The years went on, and the man's faith stayed steadfast, but the laws of economics drove him into poverty. He continued his daily payer though: "Please Lord! I am a faithful and humble servant. Please let me win the Lottery!"
Eventually, the man died of old age. He went to heaven and met God. He asked: "Lord, I prayed to you every day, I kept my faith and lived a good life. The only thing I ever asked for was that you would let me win the Lottery, but you never did. Why?"
And God said onto him: " I would have, but it was up to you to go and buy a ticket."
It's not exactly on track with your argument, but it's in the same spirit. An education does not assure wealth and success. One has to be motivated to succeed, and in the US (more than anywhere else), the desire to succeed and the willingness to work hard for one's success is all that is really required.
Some people get lucky, and win the Lottery. Others have doors unlocked for them with a Ivy-covered degree. But it is up to the individual to walk through the open door. A motivated person can break down a locked door, or crawl in through a window. (Who here hasn't padded their Resume early on??)
It's more about knowledge and skill than about 'proof of skill' that a degree is. The degree may get you in the door, but what you do inside is what keeps you there. A poor person who is willing to work hard, and can think on their feet, does not need to be poor for long.
As for the reason why poor people remain poor... IMHO, it is because they've come to believe that that is what they are, what they will always be, and worst of all, what they deserve to be.
For all his twisted thinking, Nietsche got this right: "Slave Mentality". People who think that 'the Man' is 'keeping them down', and who put the blame for their misfortune on the shoulders of someone other than themselves, will always and forever be poor. By not accepting responsibility for their own fate, the perpetually poor give control of their lives over to people in whose best interest it is to have a poor, unhappy and frightenned lower class.
The lower class exists because people do not realize that by getting off their welfare-subsidised ass (and I'm not talking about the 'down on their luck' poor, but the perpetually poor, welfare-breeding-welfare poor) they can only improve their situation.
The lack of education has little to do with it.
vignette (Score:1)
you seem to be rather critical of Vignette's StoryServer.
http://www.photo.net/wtr/vignette.html [photo.net]
http://www.photo.net/wtr/vignette-old.ht ml [photo.net]
They seem to be a "markitecture" company. Marketing first, technology second. So the philosophy that the market will decide which is the better product seems to lead one to the conclusion that they should be headed for doom (I wish). Unfortunately, the people who know the technology aren't always the ones who are making the decisions.
We've seen this before with DOS vs. Mac, and VHS vs. Beta in the mid-80s. I'm a Darwinist myself, but I grow impatient with evolution, and the natural way isn't always the best.
Where do you see their destiny leading, and what kind of a future do other hyped-up cruddy products have?
Considerations for online vs brick and mortar ... (Score:1)
It's redundant ... (Score:2)
He got that clout because, although his previous book was not a bestseller, it got stellar reviews and was becoming a bit of a "cult classic".
D
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Your outlook on industry partnerships? (Score:4)
- What's Ars' outlook on industry partnerships going forward? We're too small still to do the projects you guys want, (million+/year) and I don't think we'll be there for at least a year or two. I believe that making partnerships, and building relationsips with companies like ybos is important for you as you go forward: more alternative service providers gain you mindshare in the same way that giving away a year of free training at Ars U does.
- How do you feel about ACS/Pg? Using Oracle is a major blow to doing smaller projects, obviously. Also, I know the state of Postgres two years ago, so I don't blame you for the switch to Oracle from Illustra, but do you have intention to backport to a more open database architecture, or 'bless' Ben Adida and co's work on the ACS/Pg? I think what appeals to me about ACS/Pg is not Postgres (rather obviously), but the more open nature of the development -- Ybos has begun releasing useful ACS modules to the public, and enhancing some slow-moving Ars ones, and it's a medium-level frustration that they'll never get rolled into your toolkit, or that we have to develop side by side. (for example, bryan che kindly lent us his data model early for the events module, but we developed about half a module under his data model before you released the newer module, and we scratched it and started over.) This leads to my final question:
- Do you have thoughts on the relative openness of the ACS development? Would you consider an 'inner circle' development model that would let confirmed developers check code in and out of the development releases? I think that you'd see some significant benefits. I ask about this rather than a 'true' open source system because I'm betting you'd say "no way" to an aggressively open model. I probably would, too.
Meanwhile, I hope you're well! Congratulations on the recent funding. I hope we're not far off.. : ).ultimate goal? (Score:1)
But the idea has rekindled a thought I had long ago. Perhaps would the world be better off if undergraduate computer science programs were eliminated? It's a radical thought, but consider two things:
So, at least to my thinking (as the holder of a BA in CS), an undergrad CS degree serves only as a very basic credential, showing that the holder can program and probably can learn to be an effective engineer. The high value placed on the head of a CSBS only shows how insanely valuable an experienced engineer can become, rather than the intrinsic value of the degree itself.
So, what to do? My suggestion would be to start postgraduate software-engineering programs based on the law-school model. Use experienced engineers as teachers, read case studies, and use the Socratic method to force students to think like engineers. As an employer, I know that I would hire people trained in such a way in a minute, but there just isn't anything like that available in today's educational market.
So Phil, you're in the postgraduate education racket now. Do you see the rigorous Ars Digita U. program as a step towards more meaningful engineering credentials within the CS industry, or just as a way to convert liberal artists into billable hours?
Re:Rennisance man vs. Internet man (Score:1)
Such as Leonardo da Vinci, who was interested in painting, engineering, philosophy,
It doesn't mean the individual must know everything, but rather they have a truly meaningful interest and understanding of many fields.
Re:Wealth and Merit (Score:1)
MySQL Free? No way. (off topic) (Score:1)
Although MySQL is certainly attractive on some levels, i.e. speed, light footprint, etc, their license is without question very commercially oriented, and definitely not free. I know some large sites (including Slashdot) use(d?) it, but those aren't the kind of sites Greenspun is talking about creating, IMHO.
Those reasons, coupled with the fact that MySQL is not really SQL compliant, and doesn't support transactions, forced me to do a little searching a few months ago.
PostgreSQL is a good alternative, but after checking around, we've decided to go with Borland Interbase 6.0, which is now Open Source. It's pretty slick, too, and not as slow as PostgreSQL (although it has trouble with many simultaneous connections.) If we can work threading support into Interbase 6.0 it will truly be an excellent option.
Sure, Oracle would be great, but let's face it; anybody who wants to go to a *free digital university* probably doesn't have that kind of cash.
open photos (Score:1)
I also have an interest in photography. I am intending to get a slide scanner to read in the various notebooks of slides that I have shot over the years.
I want to display my work on the internet for all to see, but it makes me nervous that someone would take a copy of my work and use it for something that it was never intended for.
I notice that on your site, you've placed © on all your photos. (Would the GPL have some sort of logical fit here?) Shooting a photograph probably cost me a lot more time and money to place on the web than a chunk of code. I guess that I just want to maintain initial artist recognition of my work.
Open Source (Score:1)
Re:Question (Score:1)
The idea of a school that does not offer a degree is not new. In music, the Peabody Conservatory does not offer a degree, but a certificate of attendance. All tution and board is taken care of by the school.
For Phillip:
The requirements for Ars Digita U. are a little unique in requiring a bachelors degree. If the idea is to provide a first class education to those who are unable to aquire it, doesn't requiring a degree immediately exclude many people? Like the Peabody Conservatory does with music auditions, how about just picking the best people for the school? Come up with your own test to determine the skills necessary, instead of relying on degrees or even the SAT. Unless you fell that performance on SATs reflects performance in CS.
What are you shooting now? (Score:5)
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open-source competitors to ACS? (Score:2)
--
"But, Mulder, the new millennium doesn't begin until January 2001."
Elitest mentality... (Score:1)
So the lack of tuition is somewhat useless, as far as the large majority of even intelligent people is concerned.
You, of course, haven't stated that you intended your University to be non-exclusive, so I'm not attempting to say you're misleading. In fact, you made your elitest mentality clear several times, in the follow ups of the original Slashdot article.
My question, though, is do you feel that this sort of exclusiveness is a model that you would think others should follow, in their attempts of creating a tuition-free educational institution?
Shouldn't the point of a free education be to allow those that might not otherwise be able to attend an acredited institution, as well as those capable, to do so?
Which is more important, allowing a free education to those that chose another field, only to find that CS can now make them more money, or to liberate the masses from the shackles of predatory economics?
web as IBM 3270 terminal (Score:4)
Please, RTFM (Score:2)
Anyway, the University supplies a generalize undergraduate CS program, not a votech education in particular tools. In fact, they don't teach any programming languages specifically. You have to pick up that stuff on your own.
Check out their cirriculum at the University homepage [arsdigita.org].
As for ruling out "less bright" people: They are giving their students, for free, a 4-year high level CS program in one year. Their students better be bloody bright. At that pace, they don't have time to slow down for the less-than-brilliant. I agree that SAT tests aren't a real indicator of intelligence, but I think they're using them just to make the first cut. Getting a 1400 should be no problem for the mutant-geniuses that they are trying to recruit.
Python (Score:2)
So, what do you really think of python + zope?
Ryan
Re:Why do you think this is good? (Score:2)
From The Idea of a University, a famous series of lectures by John Henry Newman delivered in 1852 on the founding of Catholic University in Dublin:
It is the place to which a thousand schools make contributions; in which the intellect may safely range and speculate, sure to find its equal in some antagonist activity, and its judge in the tribunal of truth. It is a place where inquiry is pushed forward, discoveries verified and perfected, and rashness rendered innocuous, and error exposed, by the collision of mind with mind, and knowledge with knowledge.
Hmmm. Maybe there should be a Slashdot university?
In any case, I agree. The Ars Digita program would appear to be more properly called an intensive trade school rather than a University.
Re:Poor for want of a degree? (Score:1)
You'll note that most institutions will cap future earning based upon education. Those with a higher level of formal education will almost always make more, doing the same thing, than an individual without a degree.
As for knowledge, this is a byproduct of education, whether formal or otherwise. Those that are poor, and live in poor environments, are statistically less capable of pulling themselves out of these environments, simply due to the inability to secure a meaningful higher education. It's hard to learn computer science, if you can't afford a computer, very much a formal degree in Computer Science. It's harder still to become an attorney, without formal education in law. This is true of any skilled labor, regardless of the amount of effort you put into it. If you are unable to secure resources, you are unable to educate yourself, very much have someone else educate you.
Poor people remain poor because of our broken predatory economic system. There will always be a much larger demand for janitors than there will be for CEOs of Microsoft. Continually, people that do less and less actual work themselves, and rather use the capital of others, make more than educators, construction workers, farmers, the poor malnurished people that made your clothes in another country, because it was cheaper to hire labor there.
For as long as there are a few rich people controlling the majority of wealth, there will be countless poor all over the country, and the world.
You can not just will yourself out of poverty.
Would ArsDigita Be Right for Me? (Score:1)
Also, I have a solid knowledge of HTML and UNIX, and through a part-time job at the University, I am quickly learning (some) Perl, PHP, and SQL (check my first example Here [utexas.edu]. It's still a work in progress obviously...). I am not a trained programmer, although programming in some form is becoming more and more intriguing now that I have figured out the basic concepts (I need to mind all my ";" and "\n" and "{}", etc.)...
The small question is this: would I make an acceptable candidate? Would completing this program create a significant enough benefit for me vis-a-vis the very monastic time investment it requires?
Also, you give example URLs for useful websites built by students and colleages (ArfDigita.org, etc.) who have been trained similarly as the ArsDigita program... The majority of these sites are database-driven... Are there other examples? Are PHP/SQL websites the only useful result of a CS education? Do I really need a CS education to make database websites?
slashcode vs ACS/AOLserver/RDBMS (Score:1)
Love the book! Coffee table book idea definitely rocks.
You do a nice job of extolling the virtues of your ACS, especially since there is now an unencumbered version. Excluding things like the hosting offer you make in the book, would you like to discuss the relative merits of ACS vs slashcode?
Unencumbered version of ACS [sourceforge.net], ACS itself [arsdigita.com]. Also you say (in the book) that you mirror to above.net, but it doesn't look that way from tracerouting photo.net - do you still do that? Finally, as a UK-type person, love the stand on tuition fees at MIT, not many people have the moral courage.
Re:Education and the Poor (Score:1)
Thank you. (Score:1)
Re:Irc classrooms (Score:1)
LetterJ
TCL? (Score:1)
Re: socialization (Score:1)
And this makes the question illegitmate? Stick to the issues, please, and stop stuffing words into other people's mouths - nobody ever said different was bad.
The bottom line is that ample opportunities exist for socialization outside of the classroom or lecture hall.
Well, I guess that's that then - nobody ever makes friends at school... because they're too busy going to school! I guess talking to the professor after class, or asking a cute guy/girl out, never happens. People never meet other people with similar ambitions and become friends. Nope, none of that happens in college.. that's not the real world! Instead, people go out and get a job.. and then don't work and socialize instead?!
Gimme a break.
What would you do differently? (Score:1)
__
Web Designer? I don't think so. (Score:1)
He knows /nothing/ about web design. He has yet to understand layout, color, balance, font and navigation in any website he has done. He can take great photographs, talk about open source, program perl yadda yadda yadda - but he can't design a website worth a lick. Web Design is much more than just throwing text and a few images onto a page then hyperlinking it until half the page turns blue.
Dirk
http://www.idleminds.org/~dirk/ [idleminds.org]
Re:Why do you think this is good? (Score:1)
Okay, "an important point", I can see, but "the main point"???
Sheeesh. Look no further for what is wrong with the american schooling system.
Re:Poor for want of a degree? (Score:1)
My pseudo-troll was based on the single statement in the original post, which said, in effect, that poor people stay poor since they do not have a higher-ed degree.
Poor need not mean impoverished. The reasoning you present, that there is an upper-bound on earnings based on education, is circular. If you make the lack of an education part of the definition of being poor, then yeah, that is the difference between poor and rich. But nothing has been said.
An impoverished person CAN will themselves above the line of poverty. That is all I wanted to clarify. Poor is not poor due to lack of education. Poor (impoverished in the U.S. of A.) is a solvable condition. Takes hard work, luck, persistence, but not a higher-education degree.
Knowledge is not a by-product of education. It is the POINT OF IT. Anyone who is getting an education for any other reason (getting the degree that opens doors, for example) is doing it for the wrong reason.
That is it very difficult for the down-trodden to secure resources and exploit opportunities is a very true and unfortunate fact. We have established many institutions and systems to help. This is exactly the purpose of the United Negro and Native American College Funds; not to mention the great number of ethnically oriented scholarships that are available. Universities offer financial aid to students with lesser means, and there are many other options available (military and civil services for example). So, yes, it tougher to get going in life when you're poor, but it's not impossible.
As for our 'broken predatory' economic system; I'm not so sure I agree that it is. Are you proposing that benefits of being a member of society be divided equally, or based on need? We've seen that fail after causing countless millions of people pain for half a century. I prefer it here, having been there.
Here, I am rewarded based on merit, and my value to others is compensated reflecting my worth. There, my needs were met, and marginally at that, while some people where more equal than the rest of society. Do I think that the US system is perfect, far from it. Universal health care is a Good Thing IMO, and the concepts of HMOs and any sort of insurance (auto, life and especially health) and cancerous tumors feeding on American society. But, what is here is better than what is anywhere else; this is why people like myself keep coming here. We're willing to work hard, knowing that we will be compensated proportionally to our efforts.
It is only human nature to want MORE for one's self. You would not begrudge this to anyone, until you had to compete with them directly for finite resources. This 'broken predatory' economic system has provided us with the creature comforts necessary to allow us to speculate about improving it.
A fair and equitable economy is impossible due to human nature. There will always be a 'top-dog', and a hierarchy of 'underlings', and there is always going to be 'parasites'. The underlings with ambition, willing to work hard and take advantage of opportunities, will be given more opportunities, until they compete with the top-dog directly.
It is a good economic model that encourages competition (Capitalism), established checks and balances to prevent excessive exploitation of the lower by the higher (DoJ, anti-trust, law), and punishes parasitic abuse of the system (welfare is broken). The US has hit it pretty close.
As for the chasm between rich and poor, it's worse elsewhere than here. This system may be a 'broken predatory' one, but it's better than most by far. And education may make the difference between richer and poorer in relative proximity (a tax bracket or two), but not between rich and poor in economic extremes (poverty and gluttonous excess). Tis all.
Re: socialization (Score:2)
Nobody talks to the professor after class anymore, they silently indict him/her for being a eurocentric fascist. Nobody asks out a cute guy/girl, they drink a bunch of kamikazies and "hook up"
Why the degree/SAT requirements? (Score:3)
Aren't some of the likely participants in such a program high school dropouts or college dropouts who have used self-study and self-initiative to get them where they need to go? Likely, don't they already own SICP and use it for self-study? Aren't they the people who already learned Oracle from the docs? Etc? Perhaps they scored reasonably high on their SATs but found university stultifying and boring? Perhaps they scored poorly on their SATs (poor test takers, perhaps) but have been highly successful in independent technology consulting.
Aren't these the types you want? Bright, highly motivated self-learners who could take advantage of a non-traditional approach to CS education? Or do you really want only those people who have already done well in traditional approaches (and why don't traditional CS schools already work well for them?)
Evolution of Universities (Score:4)
Given that you see failings in the current system (as indicated by your desire to set up a private course), can you speculate on how you see the tertiary sector evolving. Perhaps you have some views on how private institutes or providers might foster the quarternary education sector (which can be broadly defined as post-post-graduate, professional life-long-learning, university of the third age, or adult free-thinking depending on the buzzword-du-jour or mental biases). Proto-examples I'm aware of vaguely heading this direction are University of Phoenix [uophx.edu] (US), Open University [open.ac.uk] (UK/Europe), and Universitas21 [universitas.edu.au] (Austrasia).
In short, what do you believe the future holds for the next organised stage of research-intensive learning/teaching?
LL
Re:How do you expect this degree to be worth anyth (Score:2)
Successful graduates of Greenspun's course will know their stuff cold. I have complete faith in this from reading his (gigantic) site. The guy knows how to get things done, and he's smart enough to succeed.
"We (at least in the USA) are a credentialed society. That means we need to have proof of what you say and claim. Without that little piece of paper you really don't have a chance. "
I disagree. I hire regularly, and if I came across a graduate of Phil's program who had adequate communication skills, I'd snap them up in a minute. Credentials are helpful in determining how much pressure a person can take and what kind of workload they can survive. Anyone whose work or educational history can provide the same type of information (degree or not) is equally eligible for my jobs.
Note that this won't work at organizations where H.R. has stolen the reins and decides who gets hired without any real insight into the job and its requirements. Not getting a job at a place like this is a good thing.
Re:Question (Score:2)
Yes,it's very problematic I think. It's one thing to require SAT and GRE scores, it's another to set hard SAT and GRE score thresholds (1400 for SAT, 2100 for GRE).
No college that I know of has hard SAT and GRE thresholds. In fact, (the last I checked) MIT's EECS department doesn't even require GRE scores for their Masters program.
====
Re:Oracle vs. open source (Score:2)
There is no open-source replacement for a true enterprise-level RDBMS. MySQL and PostgresSQL are as close as you can get; neither is a viable alternative to Oracle, Sybase, or DB2 (or even MS SQL Server). Given the complexity of modern database software, and the highly specialized knowledge needed to write it, I don't see the open-source community coming up with an enterprise-class RDBMS any time soon. Phil explains his choice of Oracle [photo.net] on his web site.
That being said, Oracle is a very expensive piece of software, and is a tempremental beast to configure and support. Oracle 8i for Linux can be downloaded for free [oracle.com] (free registration required [oracle.com]), but AFIK you have to pay for a licence if you use it in a production enviornment. Also, it is a practical impossiblity to run an Oracle installation without a full-time, knowledgable DBA. The high expense of the software and the salary of a DBA makes Oracle infeasable for small businesses or those on a limited budget. Sybase Adaptive Server Enterprise (ASE) 11.0.3 for Linux [sybase.com] is gratis for both production and development; ASE 11.9.2 [sybase.com] is gratis for development but requires a paid licence for production deployment. ASE 12.0 [sybase.com] hasn't been ported to Linux (yet). ASE, while easier to administer than Oracle (IMHO), still requires a knowledgable DBA. Sybase Adaptive Server Anywhere (ASA) (the database engine behind SQL Anywhere Studio) requires far less knowlege to administer, making it far more suitable for small operations. Free evaluation versions of SQL Anywhere Studio are available for Linux [sybase.com], Unix [sybase.com], and Windows [sybase.com].
"The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
Data Modeling Tools (Score:4)
Given that the ArsDigita Community System is so heavily database-driven, I was wondering what tools you use for data modeling and schema management.
What is your opinion of modeling tools like Sybase's PowerDesigner [sybase.com] and Platinum's ERwin [cai.com]? What kinds of tools do you think are necessary to facilitate the development of highly portable, vender independent database designs? Finally, what is your opinion of UML [cetus-links.org] and to what extent does ArsDigita use it?
"The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
Re:Question (Score:2)
Well, not many colleges may advertise hard thresholds, but actual practice can run very close to this. I do know of one Psychology program (at the University of Oregon) advertises the use of a linear discriminant based on GRE scores and GPA to do the "first pass" at graduate student applications. The theory behind this, which is due primarily to Robyn Dawes [cmu.edu] is reasonably clear: you set your threshold at a level slightly below the one where you have never, ever seen a successful graduate student in your program so that you don't unrealistically raise anybody's hopes. (And this includes wishful thinking among faculty members, too: you should definitely think twice before you accept a grad student whose chances of success, going from the previous record, are questionable at very best.
In this case, I have no idea how Greenspun U. is setting their threshold, but given the kind of intellectual energy they're looking for, I've seen many worse plans...
Re:Open Source and "When they're ready" (Score:2)
I don't code. I write. And I can tell you I usually write *much better* when I have time to step back and look at my work than when I've got to have it in by 9 a.m. (or when I'm dashing off a fast post like this...)
Many of my friends who *do* code say they do their best work in the same way. Each to his or her own.
- Robin
Too big to be interesting? (Score:2)
The ACS is a tour de force of web application design, to be sure, but as specified (Solaris, Oracle, AOLserver, massive redundancy, other tools), it makes it quite unatainable for small businesses to compete. Small businesses, IMHO, are who could benefit from a web presence the most, as compared to IPO-crazed dot-commers who push out a business plan first, and develop a strategy second.
Do you intend to target just the big-spenders, or are you hopeful that technology will drive down the costs to a point where smaller businesses can participate?
Looked at another way, will small businesses be looking at ACS for their web service needs when they get their MMDS hookup, or will they be looking at other solutions that don't require an Oracle DBA to get off the ground? Wouldn't that market segment (small business) be more interesting than big corporate clients?
Thanks for your work, BTW. You have already taught me more than 4 years of college at only the cost of buying your book and reading your site.
What's next for Philip Greenspun? (Score:3)
- graduated from MIT, probably THE most prestigious technical university in the world
- taught at that very university (sometimes even refunding tuition)
- created an influential open-source toolkit for creating DB-backed Web sites
- written one of the first widely-publicized and published books on the topic of DB-backed Web sites
- and did so for free on the Web
- started an enterprise open-source software company
- created a unique kind of educational program to teach computer science
- and was companion to at least two great dogs
What's left for Philip Greenspun to do? What's next? What can we expect this wunderkind turned pundit to come up with next? I mean, besides the obvious of assuring the ADU is successful, AD goes public, etc. How will Philip Greenspun continue this revolution that he helped start?--jeddz
White backgrounds considered as harmful (Score:2)
My point is simple: computer screens aren't really much like paper, and white backgrounds emit an awful lot of light that makes the display much more annoying to look at than an old-fashioned terminal used to be.
I agree with nearly everything you say about web design in "Philip and Alex's" guide, except for this one point. The need for high contrast I can understand, but what's wrong with achieving this with a light-on-dark scheme? There's at least one place where you sneer at "trendy" web sites with black backgrounds, but you don't explain why.
The answer is obvious: (Score:2)
find one of the 300lb, pie-faced girls and marry her. I've seen you in your skivvies, you could do worse.
If there are any 300 lb pie faced girls out there looking for a date, please feel free to drop me a note.
Your class and company... ethical concerns (Score:2)
As a student, I have been widely critical of MIT's undergrad education for being intentionally non-practical, although things like 6.170 (Software Engineering Lab) switching from Clu to Java is an improvement.
As a result, I should be thrilled with a course like yours being available, as it takes computer science ideas and uses a real world application.
However, the fact that your class is also a recruiting ground has me worried. By training people that will work for you and competitors, you seem to remove some of that concern, as you are training all the people interested in this field. However, I can't help but consider their to be an ethical question of teaching a class as a recruitment in. Things that I have heard include the completition of the first three problem sets satisfactorily being an in for a job, and/or the completion of the course with a B or better doing so has me worried.
I wonder, how do you separate your academic ethics from your business decisions? Do you see an ethical problem of teaching at MIT and recruiting your own students?
Alex
ArsDigita and new technology (Score:2)
I've read your book (online), and I found it very enlightening and useful.
I was wondering to what extent you keep it up to date? Some of the information in it seems to be somewhat dated, and because of that it maybe somewhat misleading.
For instance, while here on Slashdot we may mostly agree with you that Windows NT is a bad platform to host websites on, it does seem that some companies are doing it fairly successfully now, and your book does not seem to reflect that.
Your book seems to say "To build a good website, use Solaris or HP/UX, Oracle, AOLServer, get good people and you'll be okay". While not many people will argue with that statement, do you think you are neglecting other technologies?
Should we read you book more as a "This is how we build websites and it works for us" rather than a "This is how you should build websites" kind of thing?
I also just noticed (just before I submitted this question) that you now have mod_aolserver for Apache. What prompted this being written? Was it requests by clients, or was it contributed by non-ArsDigita employees?
Wah! Please moderate this question down! (Score:2)
Nothing personal against slashdot-terminal, but I don't want an answer to this kind of question...
Very clearly, in such a hot market and economy, a degree is not necessary to get a good job, when all it takes is skill, effort, ability, and some decent discipline.
Rather, a degree is just a certification that there is some measure of all of the above in the certified/decorated student.
I'd think Greenspun, obviously would. Also, at this point in the game, anyone who can spot talent, ability, or is even looking for a warm body to code, would take someone who can handle the curricula. It's the person, almost more than the skills, because skills can be honed, taught, and managed. People are much harder to manipulate.
Do you think the numbers will increase?
Of course, this is dependent on the quality of the students who go into the course, and how they handle the course, and not really a function of the course itself except to weed out those people who can handle it, vs those who cant.
But really, I'd rather hear Greenspun talk about how he wants to change education, or why he's doing it when no one else(with more money, resources, etc) is tackling it, what can be done for those who *don't* qualify for his program, and how to get those left out of the system(female, black/hispanic, whatever) integrated into it, or if that is even a problem, etc.
But, of course, if moderators really want to see this question asked of Greenspun... go ahead and ignore me.
-AS
How about the 'digital divide'? (Score:2)
It goes deeper than just the internet-learning, science, education, and empowerment in general are all closely tied to this. Women/minorities/underrepresented majorites in science/engineering/power, the haves producing systems that exclude and isolate the have nots, even if it isn't malicious or intentionl, and those who have power producing systems that ignore those who don't, just out of negligence and lack of foresight.
Thanks!
-AS
How do we change the world? (Score:2)
-AS