Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Technology

18-Inch 3D LCD Screens 97

Rob Polyn sent in a story about a new 18" LCD screen using DTI to simulate 3D. An excerpt describes the technique: "The second approach to true 3D animation is known as autostereoscopy (which DTI monitors utilize). In this method, two solid and unyielding images are produced for the user to view. These images are merged together, and if viewed by one eye, will appear to be two overlapping images, which don?t quite merge together correctly. However, when viewed with two eyes, autostereoscopy can produce vivid lifelike 3D images."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

18 Inch 3D LCD Screens

Comments Filter:
  • by Anonymous Coward
    yay
  • So wait a sec.. I view the thing with two eyes and it magically looks 3D when it is just a 2D display?<P>

    Can someone tell me how the heck this thing works? The concept doesn't make any sense to me.<P>

    Thanks.
  • Sounds to me like a Magic Eye. Very uh.. odd. I can't imagine people being that enthusiastic about "looking past the screen" to get the correct image.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    of pornography awaits! Chalk another one up for science! Whoo-hoo!

    Imagine a beowolf cluster of these...
  • I read about this when a site [geekflavor.com] I check for news a lot had a link to an article about it a week or so ago. I understand the concept, and it seems like a good idea and it might work really well, but I thought the whole point of spending money on technology was so you wouldn't have to deal with the real world, 3D and all :)
  • Well, that's what I said about Quicktime VR. I said, THIS is the future of pornography. Funny how it hasn't really caught on. Steve Jobs is missing a BIG market here. . .

    I just remembered this old Metallica song. . .
  • by JamesSharman ( 91225 ) on Wednesday May 31, 2000 @02:03PM (#1035028)
    This kind of display effectively displays a stereo pair without the need of special glasses etc. Every example I have ever seen requires the viewer to be in a relatively constrained angle to the monitor to receive a true effect. The best 3d I have experienced was a pair of polarized projectors (one horizontal, one vertical) with a passive set of polarized glasses, a camera would track the viewers motion and redraw the scene appropriately, the affect was very much like looking through a window.

    Does any one know of any other 3d visualization system being developed, any links would be most appreciated.
  • I'm fairly familiar with the various technologies for 3d display, and screens that use the physical properties of a flat display to present two images visible from different angles have been in the pipeline for a while now.

    If they get cheap and popular, what are we gonna do with them?

    The no-brainer applications are gaming and 3d modelling, and someone will certainly come up with a new form of Pr0n.

    What would you use a flat stereo screen for?

  • by advtech ( 176011 ) on Wednesday May 31, 2000 @02:03PM (#1035030) Homepage

    Unfortunately, this concept has proven to create problems for individuals prone to epilepsy or similar medical conditions. The chance of exciting or aggravating a condition such as this increases if the images are of an autostereoscopy, but are also flashing. Another area of concern is that it seems to cause headaches in many individuals, also.

    The goal would be creating a system capable of delivering images to multiple viewers at their respective locations. Current technologies allow a single viewer with a 30-degree viewzone. This may or may not be practical with the current design. Also, another hurdle is producing full color 3-D and proper occlusion (depth cue allowing an object in the foreground to block the ones behind it).

    Thanks.


    Domenic R. Merenda
    Director of Strategic Business Development
    BeOpen.com
  • Something else to make me nauseous while surfing. :o)
  • by Chairboy ( 88841 ) on Wednesday May 31, 2000 @02:06PM (#1035032) Homepage
    $11,000? Yikes!

    LCD is gonna be cool. My dream is for a hardware standard puts 12" LCD displays in the stores for cheap, like $100 or less. Each of these LCD displays could function as an independant monitor, but the coolness would be that you could take the plastic edges off and expose the LCD going all the way to the edge, and there would be an androgynous connector running down each side that could plug into another identical LCD. Take four of these and plug them together in a square, and you have a 24"x24" monitor. You could go out and buy a couple panels every paycheck until eventually you were satisfied with the size or had a monitor-wall to run Quake on.

    This would work for TVs as well, and could really make it easier to get big TVs without needing to spend so much money at once.

    Just an idea...
  • by &amp;#111sm ( 194643 ) on Wednesday May 31, 2000 @02:06PM (#1035033) Homepage
    I wonder how these work for people who are cross-eyed?


    thank you.
  • Well, when you look at the real world, you look at what is realisticaly 2 flat images on the cornias of your eyes, and the brain interprates the differance to create a depth of feild for you. So, by making the two images side by side, you see the image on the right, primarily, w/ the right eye, and the left w/ the left. This creates a stereo-scopic effect wich tricks the brain into creating a 3D image from 2 flat ones.

    -Earthman

  • I read that somewhere about three weeks ago... They are cool none the less, but they will be too expensive for the average user until they mass produce them. Sony has apparently opened a factory to mass produce lcd monitors. that might affect the price - I hope.
  • I see. So wouldn't the 3D card be a better place to do this? Then you don't need some expensive monitor. Any monitor would do.. Or maybe it would be limited to flat (CRT/LCD) monitors. Either way, seems like an odd way to go about it.
  • There are the tank-based systems where lasers draw an image on some kind of semitransparent substrate. One early implementation used a transparent plastic helix spinning inside a tank.

    The cool point here is "without glasses". As long as you need to hang something on your head, appeal will be limited.

    The drawback to autostereoscopy is you have to sit still in front of the screen. I don't know about you, but I spend about 60 hours a week doing that.

  • my original account is still bitchslapped. this is a different account: "&amp#11sm" which shows up as "osm." devious, eh?


    thank you.
  • I guess it is a good technology because you don't have to attach anything to you head. However, I imagine it is a fairly restrictive veiwing angle and thusnot that great if you want to show something to others. I still think goggles and direct projection is the way to go. This way you are not restrained to one position. Yes I realise they are even more limited in that you can't show others the screen but I think the other advantages out way this.

  • As others have said, most of the technology to give you 3D images on a screen requires you to stand in some fixed position or the like.

    I'd think (though I may be wrong) that the only sure way to ensure perfect 3D vision would be to use separate screen for each eye, but there doesn't seem to happen much in that area. Are the glasses just too heavy? Or is it damaging the eyes?

    Oh well, maybe we'll have to wait for the day when we can just connect our brain directly to the video card.

  • You can find a list of similar products here [stereo3d.com]. Another interesting link is the Spatial Imaging Group [mit.edu] at the MIT Media Lab [mit.edu].

  • Yes, the concept has proven to have all of those problems, but, as the artical states, those are exactly the issues that this screen tries to address.
    First off, the screen flashes less, theoreticaly helping w/ both headaches and epileptics, not that I recomend this for anyone w/ a history of Epilepsy or migrains. Unfortunatly the veiwing area is damned near impossable to fix, even more so in an LCD. Add to it that this one seems to dim in 3D mode, and you kinda lose that point all together.

    -Earthman

  • That is actually a very valid point. "Lazy eye" is a very common medical condition. People with "Lazy eye" have an imbalance in their eyes where one eye bends in and often have trouble seeing stereoscopically.

    The 3d process here sounds similar to the effect presented by 3d movies. I have "Lazy eye" and can only experience 3d movies a certain times of the day when I am not fatigued (I guess when my eyes are rested enough to properly focus at this time of day). I wonder if this system would pose similar difficulties for me.
  • That's strange. The testers explicitely say that they tested the screen with non-3d-capable game (quake 3)... No wonder that absolutely no 3d effect is to be expected.

    As for the screen itself, the dimness of the image shows that either the technology is not mature, or the test pattern was unappropriate... Or else, the technology simply doesn't work : "psychosomatic 3d"...
  • Personally I find those magic eye pictures to be very disorienting and I have very little sucess with them. It seems to me that this display will end up with many people like me who have problems seeing a magic eye being frustrated. I'd much rather have something based on alternate technology, that wouldn't require looking beyond the screen.
  • by waldoj ( 8229 ) <waldo&jaquith,org> on Wednesday May 31, 2000 @02:21PM (#1035046) Homepage Journal
    In this method, two solid and unyielding images are produced for the user to view. These images are merged together, and if viewed by one eye, will appear to be two overlapping images, which don?t quite merge together correctly. However, when viewed with two eyes, autostereoscopy can produce vivid lifelike 3D images.

    That's just not an explanation. But, I figure, it's just a review by some graphics fans. So I checked the company's website [dti3d.com]. (Which barely works. A peek at the image directory got me this [dti3d.com]. I guess we know they're hosting on a Mac, huh?) Their FAQ [dti3d.com], in response to "Q: I am wondering how your display works?" links to http://www.dti3d.com/dev/ [dti3d.com], which is not especially useful. I downloaded the developer's package. The readme says:

    dti_vw libray diretory has source files for our driver.
    dti_vw app directory has sample file for how to use our libray in a application program.
    Our library is so simple and easy to use.
    There for this sample is good enough to know how our library works.
    Our library make a application can communicate between a computer and our unit.
    If we change our the communication method and way, we will update immediately.


    I gotta be honest: This all looks pretty sketchy. Has anybody seen/used one of these? I'm not convinced that this thing is legit. I don't have the skills to be able to read the code to figure out how all of this works. But "view with two eyes" just ain't gonna cut it for this crowd.

    -Waldo
  • The monitor works by providing 2 images, one for each eye. As the article mentioned, if your program supports it, each eye will get a slightly different image, which provides the 3d effect. Otherwise, each eye will get a copy of the same image. I would guess this is done by angling alternate pixels slightly towards each eye.

    You can actually try this effect on your own monitors. Just open 2 copies of any picture, and put them next to each other. Now, look at the pictures thru the monitor, as if they were far away. Eventually, you will be able to merge the 2 pictures together, while everything else goes a bit blurry. When that happens, you are looking at one picture thru each eye. You should be able to get a slightly 3d effect depending on what kind of picture you chose.

    You can get 3d cameras that take a picture from 2 angles, and use a special viewer that forces each eye to look at its corresponding picture to view them. The innovation with this monitor is just allowing you to view it without using any special viewers. Of course, the review said that there were some problems with dimness and vertical lines in 3d mode, but these should be easy to fix.


    ---
  • you can click on user info, when it comes up replace "osm" with "&amp#111sm". that will show you the userinfo for this account. actually, i just informed rob about all of this, so i'll probably revert back to my old account eventually.


    thank you.
  • One of the links I mentioned refers to the Richmond Holographic Studios [www.cuni.cz]. One very nice feature of this technology is that a wider viewing angle is supported allowing multiple people to see the same image. This might not be so important for games, but for architectural rendering or other 'real work' (that is unless you work for a gaming company ;-), this may be vital.

    I suspect that there are some strong negatives and would love to read comments from anyone who knows more.

  • sure it does... try clicking here [slashdot.org]


    thank you.
  • ".. autostereoscopy can produce vivid lifelike 3D images."
    Need I say more? MMM.. pr0n.. and in 3d.. My desire to leave the house is dwindling by the day! Maybe they're trying to prevent the geeks of society from reproducing..? =)

    .- CitizenC (User Info [slashdot.org])
  • I have (had) lazy eye as well, although I've had two operations to correct the problem. Unfortunately, I still don't have 100% stereovision (a psych professor of mine called me a walking case study :) and so stereoscopes (and even distance vision to some extent) don't work too well for me.
  • That's strange. The testers explicitely say that they tested the screen with non-3d-capable game (quake 3)... No wonder that absolutely no 3d effect is to be expected.

    There's some conflict on this. The author says:

    Switching from 2D to 3D mode is a breeze--simply press the "3D" button on the front control panel on the monitor, and one has virtually automatically switched modes.


    I simply don't believe that. There was never even a mention of installing drivers in the installation [3daccelerated.com] portion of the article. Can you imagine the processing power that would go into turning a 2D image into 3D? It must be quite remarkable. I'd think at least a software upgrade would be in order.

    The author goes on:

    However, when comparing Doom, a game which has stereoscopy, with Quake 3, a game which doesn't, the differences were negligible. This could potentially be because of Quake 3's increased detail, but could also be because our eyes simply couldn't tell the minute difference. Quake 3 basically uses the exact same image being displayed twice, while Doom uses two images which slightly differ in viewing angle. Perhaps Doom produced a slightly more 3D "feel" to it, but Quake 3 also had a similar effect.


    "A game which has stereoscopy"? I don't understand -- could somebody explain? Doom was made to be viewed in 3D monitors?

    Then the author says:
    Though full stereoscopy is not widely supported by many recent games, DTI's 3D mode is still useable in games such as Quake 3, and produces results very similar to games that fully support stereoscopy.

    So....it *is* 3D? I don't get it. I thought Quake 3 didn't look 3D?

    This is all pretty sketchy.

    -Waldo
  • by Misagon ( 1135 ) on Wednesday May 31, 2000 @02:38PM (#1035054)
    I followed some links that were posted in other comments and found the name of the technology that is used. I had saved an old article which described the technique, but I forgot where I got it.

    It works with backlighting. There is a striped mask over the lamp, and the lamp is positioned a little distance behind the liquid crystals. If you draw a lines in 3D space from a light stripe to each eye, each line will pass through different pixel elements on the way.

  • weird.


    thank you.
  • not at all... somebody else figured this out... i just stole it... so i'm a thief!


    thank you.
  • You can actually try this effect on your own monitors. Just open 2 copies of any picture, and put them next to each other. Now, look at the pictures thru the monitor, as if they were far away. Eventually, you will be able to merge the 2 pictures together, while everything else goes a bit blurry. When that happens, you are looking at one picture thru each eye. You should be able to get a slightly 3d effect depending on what kind of picture you chose.

    Okay I tried that but it didn't seem to work as you described.
    I just got dizzy and started hearing a weird sound.
    It was almost like the picture was trying to talk to me.
    Strange eh?
    I felt like I was in one of OSM's fantasies.

    I think I'm going to be sick now.
  • From the MITwebsite (http://www.media.mit.edu/groups/spi/new_AutoM1.ht ml),

    it appears that the system actually projects different images into each eye. This one appears to force you to keep your head still, while the MIT one tracks you via IR. Anyway, knowing where your head is, it uses special magic (erm... polarising filter/beamsplitter) to direct the proper image into each eye.

    I think they're taking advantage of the narrow viewing angle of the lcd, and tu(r)ning every other row of pixels to each eye.

    Does that make sense?
  • waldoj I have looked through your previous posts and it is pretty clear to me that you are a sprightly and athletic young bonobo.

    *blush* Gosh, that's sweet of you. And you, dear AC, are a delightful and rapartious rapscallion.

    Feel the love!
  • by joshy ( 9772 ) on Wednesday May 31, 2000 @02:56PM (#1035060) Homepage
    i read their review and they really don't explain how it works. yes, i know steroscopic vision is one of the many techniques used to create a 3d effect inside the brain, but how does it work? how do they make sure each eye gets a separate image?

    after a little more research i came up with this Philips research paper [philips.com]. (be sure to look at the nice diagrams in the slides).

    the gist of it is this: much like 3d postcards, they use a grid of cylindrical lens over the LCD panel. each lens covers a specified number of real LCD pixels, 4 being a common number. since the lens is constructed to have the LCD pixel be at the focal point, when you look at the screen through the lens your eye will be directed towards one of the 4 pixels and not the others. thus the lens has turned 4 real pixels into one 3d pixel. (and dropped your resolution to 1/4th!) if you shift your viewing angle then you will look at a different one. if, like many people, you have two eyeballs which are separated by a few inches, then each eye will see a different image.

    another way of thinking about it is to imagine that four zones of images are being projected out from each pixel to your eyes. as long as your eyes are in separate zones then you are okay. this is the case if you are sitting at normal reading distance. but if you get too far away (or have a head the size of a mouse) then your eyes will end up in the same zone and you lose the 3d effect.

    philips has also done some innovative work to even out the resolution loss and improve the viewing angle.

    - joshy

    after reading how it works i now understand why it's so dim. if there is a 4:1 ratio of real pixels to 3d pixels, then each eye is only getting 1/4 the light it used to. guess they are going to have to beef up that backlight. then you can switch back to 2d and have a blinding image reflect of your face, just like in the movies. :)

  • I think they're taking advantage of the narrow viewing angle of the lcd, and tu(r)ning every other row of pixels to each eye. Does that make sense?

    Yes, it does. Tell me if I've got this right. You know the little cards that come in Cracker Jacks [crackerjacks.com] or in cereal boxes that have moving images on them? You tilt them from side to side and the little Ken Griffey Jr. swings his baseball bat, or the woman lifts her skirt, or whatever? (Well, they don't *only* come in Cracker Jacks... :)

    Do you suppose that it's like that? Each row of pixels is tilted to the right or to the left? So you have a screen that would make a little zippy noise if you ran your fingernail across it.

    That's pretty cool. I hope it works like that -- I'll get one and make little zippy noises all day. :)

    -Waldo
  • by OzPeter ( 195038 ) on Wednesday May 31, 2000 @03:01PM (#1035062)
    .. as I am blind in one eye. As well as fearing wearable computers for the same reason. How many other "disabled" people out there wonder how we will adapt to the toys of the "perfects" in the future of computing???
  • Thank you osm!!!! Choose your own identity!!! Woo hoo!!!!!!
  • I'm not really JonKatz, BTW. Just wanted to have some fun. You can too!
  • These exact monitors were slashdotted back in February. http://slashdot.org/articles/00/02/19/1217254.shtm l Come on guys, this is really getting lame.
  • And it explains the bright/dim pattern. Unfortunately the original review fails to explain how this system works. Thanks for the insight.
  • Ok, so replying to myself is kinda gimpy, but I had what I thought was a kick ass idea:

    given that SOO many of us have notebooks with fairly standard dot-pitch LCDs, wouldn't it be cool if a game manufacturer shipped a fresnel lens cover for your LCD with their 1-st person shoot-em-up?

    Every other row or better yet column of pixels would be focussed the in the proper direction, towards each eye. Basically do optically what the MIT people do with fancy schmancy beam splitters.

    Ok, so you'd have to keep your head still while playing, and the quality might not be up there, but it would be cool and cheap.

    Some problems with the idea might be that getting the lens to line up properly with the pixels would be a hassle. But here's the cool part. LCDs have subpixels, baby! yeah! just shift the image left or right 1 subpixel at a time until the display comes out right.

    You might have to sacrifice every other column of pixels too (LxRxLxR ...) in order for it to come out nice, but that still leaves you 330 odd horisontal. good enough for a shootie, Ithink.

    This'd suck processor like you wouldn't believe, but I will bet you anything thing that true 3D at low framerate (and since you have an LCD, you're kinda limited in that regard anyway) over 2D at 100fps. and if you cut resolution, you have less to do anyway.

    ok, so I thought that was pretty cool, but I'm biased. I think these ideas are so cool that I'm gonna have to claim copyright to them right now.

    Johan
  • On a side not, CmdrTaco posted both of these stories about the same exact LCD screen.
  • That zippy thing is what I (perhaps mistakenly, please correct) call a fresnel lens below.

    Johan
  • There are a variety of pretty straightforward techniques to present two separate images to a viewer in front of a flat display. You can get some idea from the 3D postcards and photographs with the riged surface: they use small cylindrical lenses to accomplish this.

    Trouble is: when looking at realistic scenes, motion parallax (i.e., what happens to the image when you move your head slightly), not stereo, is probably the primary motion cue. Stereo cues in the kinds of scenes you get from 3D games are likely more confusing than immersive, since they often simply reinforce the impression of looking at a tiny, toy-like scene. If you want that kind of appearance, you can already get simple LCD shutter glasses for relatively little money, but they probably haven't caught on for a reason.

    The best solution for immersive 3D games is head mounted displays, which give you excellent head tracking and motion parallax. The next most important cue is likely peripheral vision, which is a bigger engineering challenge. Once you have a head-mounted display, adding stereo is technically easy (but increases the cost somewhat since you need two displays).

  • Cheap man's 3d:

    do what Kanasta said, but flip one image left-right. now affix a mirror inbetween the two, perpendicular to the screen. press your nose agains the mirror, and voila, fusing the images becomes a snap.

    The one drawback is that all images appear to be offcenter (behind the reflective side of the mirror, as it were).

    But it's cheap.
    and it works.


  • Though full stereoscopy is not widely supported by many recent games, DTI's 3D mode is still useable in games such as Quake 3, and produces results very similar to games that fully support stereoscopy.

    Okay, how can this possibly work? How can the driver or anything else possibly guess the distances at which we're supposed to perceive different objects?

    I could see how they could produce some uniform 3D effect, such as making the top of the screen appear farther away than the bottom, but how can they do anything which relates to the contents of the image?

    However, when comparing Doom, a game which has stereoscopy, with Quake 3, a game which doesn't, the differences were negligible.

    Right. This really makes me think any benefits are largely imagined.
  • "A game which has stereoscopy"? I don't understand -- could somebody explain? Doom was made to be viewed in 3D monitors?

    Yes. Or more specificaly 3d glasses. Also Quake1, duke3d(very buggy), Decent1&2, and quite a few others.
    Also there exist 3daccelerator cards that support 3d glasses as well. Wicked3d is a very cool example.
  • Considering the other current applications of 3D images - mostly in movies at iMax or theme parks, for its novelty value - I don't think it's likely to take off.

    3D movies at the cinema were incredibly popular at one point during the 1940s/50s, and then everyone realised the triviality of being able to see in 3D. Now all we have are the cliched "oh no look out, the dinosaur's coming towards me!" type we see at theme parks. Is this also the future for 3D monitors?

    Put on top of this the prohibitive cost, and it sounds like you've just got another side-show for the Epcott centre.

  • Well, you know what they say...thievery is next to godliness.
  • who knows? who cares? if he offers to, i'll accept. if he offers to under the condition that i stop trolling or something, i will decline.


    thank you.
  • ?!? Explain... ?!?
  • by Ungrounded Lightning ( 62228 ) on Wednesday May 31, 2000 @03:45PM (#1035078) Journal
    However, I imagine it is a fairly restrictive veiwing angle and thusnot that great if you want to show something to others.

    It's not all THAT bad. (If this is what I think it is) there are a SET of narrow angles from the screen where the stereo effect works correctly.

    They're bisected by another set of angles where the depth is reversed, and the space between the clean images (normal or reversed depth) has regions where the two images wash into each other.

    So a person can sit closely beside you (distance from your right eye to his left is one, three, five, etc. times the distance between your eyes) and simultaneously see the same image.

    The main problems are...

    - You have to be at distance from the screen equal to a constant times the spacing between your eyes (plus or minus maybe 20%) to get the effect. At the wrong distance the images for each eye also bleed into the other eye, giving you a triple image - the one you want, plus two single-eye ghosts.

    - Images TOO far ahead of or behind the screen will give you eyestrain - because your eyes have to focus at the distance to the screen, but the paralax depth cue says the object is far from the screen. So your eye muscles hunt and get tired.
  • i love it when they say that. or, better yet, thievery is next to natalie portman!


    thank you.
  • oh but of course. i have a high flying
    TV lifestyle, but i've always dreamed of playing down in the dirt with a bunch of code monkeys. no wait. maybe it was the other way around. :)


    - joshy

  • Additionally, we were shown the herpes virus in 3D, which brought up another major use for this monitor.

    And that would not be that...

    The medical community could easily implement this into various aspects of training and detection of diseases in patients.

    ...rather, we were thinking, "I can't wait to start my 3D porn collection, this is gonna be so cool!"
  • It's easy for a driver to figure out how far away each pixel is, you just take the actual 3d scene that a modern game such as Quake 3 sends to the video card driver and use that. Unlike games such as Doom modern games don't have to render the 3d scenes themselves, they send them to the video card and let the video card do the work.

    I have no idea what the reference to Doom is about... I've seen the source myself (I once did some AI development on one of the derivations made after id released the source) and it sure as hell doesn't support anything other then simple VGA graphics.

  • I Knew I had read it somewhere.
  • Okay, how can this possibly work? How can the driver or anything else possibly guess the distances at which we're supposed to perceive different objects?

    3D accelerator cards do hidden-surface removal with a depth buffer, so depth information has to be available to the driver and the card. Quake 3 passes the depth of every vertex to the OpenGL driver along with the X and Y coordinates.

    This information is sufficient to reconstruct the scene from two different eye positions. The drivers for some kinds of shutter glasses work in this way.

    I don't know anything about this particular display.

  • ...a monitor screen covered with tiny projectors (projexels?) instead of pixels. What do I mean? Each projexel projects a complete image. If you darkened the room, turned off all the projexels except one and held a piece of white paper up to the screen, you would see a complete image of the scene projected on the white paper.

    In other words, active holography. Now, this would require a lot of bandwidth if you did it the stupid way. OTOH, it seems you could exploit coherency in the image to a great deal in order to avoid having to retransmit data that doesn't change too often from projexel to projexel. Possibly, something as simple as run-length encoding could do this.

    I'm glossing over a lot of details here. This is an idea I've had for quite a while. Also, if anybody tries to patent active holography, they can bugger off. You saw it here first.

    BTW, Theirs is $11,000. I'll make you one of mine for $11,000,000.

  • Stereo games (such as Doom) already generate left- and right-eye data. Non-stereo games (such as Quake 3) could have depth = 1/luminance; dim things are farther away.
  • Images TOO far ahead of or behind the screen will give you eyestrain - because your eyes have to focus at the distance to the screen, but the paralax depth cue says the object is far from the screen. So your eye muscles hunt and get tired.

    wow, I must say your post was very interesting.. I sure didn't know all of that stuff, etc, etc.

    But what I'm wondering is, what do you mean by images too far ahead of or behind the screen?
    I'm sorry, I'm just a bit slow at this.. do you mean images that are being attempted in 3-D that are too far in a depth beyond the physical location of the screen? (well, I guess so.) That's interesting.. so, that would mean the image effectively "hits" the screen and can't go any farther back, so wouldn't that kill some of the depth of the image and put things on the same plane that aren't mean to be?
  • And now the damned site is suffering the /. effect!
  • I have a Beeawoolf cluster of such video cards directly wired to my brain, the problem is that there are no drivers for them in Linux and tweaking them to do perfect 3-d modelling in unison has fried my visual cortex. Don't try this at home kids! Professional websurfer on a closed course!
  • Ditto. And ditto. I can't imagine how I'm supposed to deal with superimposed 3D images...

    (in Real Life, 3D is not a problem; for objects more than about three feet away, you don't use binocular vision to judge depth: the difference in image between your eyes is too minute, so your brain relies on size, 'layering' and parallax... presumably, my brain has become exceptionally good at processing this info closer in than 3ft, 'cause I don't seem to be handicapped by being half-blind...)

    (and in Real Life, we're not subjected to that annoying blurry image-over-image effect!)


    --
  • This is not true. Your brain relies far more on parallax, "smaller is farther" and "stuff in front blocks out stuff behind."

    You use binocular difference with close objects, within a few feet distance. Beyond that, binocular doesn't enter into it.

    --
  • As for using wearables with one eye, it's definitely possible. Many of the display technologies I've looked at are partly transparent, allowing the user to see both the physical world and the display.

    Not all of the displays work that way, and it seems that they are more expensive, but I know I'd spring for it to avoid losing stereoscopy and I'm sure a lot of other people would too. Combined with people who need the transparency, there should be enough market to get them out there.
    ---

  • You know, just because some topic has ever been mentioned on slashdot before, doesn't make it a duplicate.

    Actually, if you would read, you would see that that is exactly what it is.
  • Please, get a grip. Maybe instead of pissing on "the perfects" you should do something for yourself. There are many people who work to make computing tools accessable to the disabled (of which, missing only one eye sucks but isn't too bad). We work so that technology like the WWW is fully available to people with no sight, no motor skills, etc.

    More to the point, most 3D technology will work fine in your case, you just won't get the 3D effect. In this case the image when viewed by one eye is blurred but CRT, LCD and other technologies aren't going away anytime soon. Please do not be alarmed and fearful.

  • Think of the LCD screen as being divided into lots of tiny vertical stripes one pixel wide. Now you send the even stripes to your left eye and the odd stripes to your right eye (or the other way around). Naturally the image sent to the screen would not be a normal image but one where the left eye view is sent to the aforementioned even stripes and the right eye view to the odd stripes (this is done through the 3D API like DX7 or a special version of Open GL --though it might have to be a special version).

    Of course, like normal photographic paper, normal computer displays (LCD or otherwise) do not usually do this. So now you have to modify them so they will. Both in the cases of 3D photographs and LCD screens this is done by fitting the surface with a v ertical lens [philips.com] over each right-left pair of image stripes which directs the appropriate stripe into the appropriate eye. This (plus the quirks of LCD technology) is why the display has to be viewed from a very narrow angle since from other angles the lenses would not work quite right

    At least this is the way it's done sometimes (with the 3D photographs and the Phillips display) and I'm pretty sure this is the way this particular display must work as well.

  • "... a special version of Open GL --though it might have to be a special version" should have been written as "... Open GL --though it might have to be a special version"
  • 3D images are a nice gimic, but I think the long-term goal is to create a completely immersive experience, i.e. virtual reality.

    From the excellent book "The Visionary Position":

    By experimenting with the display -- moving, by degrees, from a 20-degree field of view to a 30-degree field of view and so on up to 120 degrees, the team discovered that at the "60- to 80-degree point, it was like a switch went off in your head. Instead of looking at a picture, all of a sudden you thought you were in a place. You had a different way of interacting with the display. You brought in a different set of innate capabilities. ... And we realized more and more that we were onto something really big. We found that you couldn't forget it, because it was like this world was a place. And we found that people learned really quickly when they were inside of it, that there was a remarkable acceleration of the ability to learn these things, to interact with them..."

    Currently the best field of view is around 30% with VR goggles. I am excited about 3D, but it seems funny that no one seems to be working on increasing field of view.

  • Magic Eye hard to look at? Nahh... I loved to stare at them as a kid, twisting the tuning knob back and forth, watching the gap open and close, finding stronger stations to make the gap close tighter.. but I guess I'm showing my age...
  • Additionally, we viewed that if the framerate of Quake 3 was set too high, the monitor would produce flawed images. Setting the framerate to 60 frames per second alleviated this problem, however.

    Since the monitor's refresh rate is, as they said, 60 Hz, shouldn't this be attributed to the tearing effects that can happen when vertical sync is disabled? That doesn't sound like the monitor's fault...sounds more like they let the vid card get out of sync with it.

  • I was wondering if anyone would post that little problem....

    I have a bit more than just a "lazy eye", I'm flat out "wall eyed". Each of my eyes looks seperately in it's own direction, whichever one I'm not 'using' at any given point in time tends to wander off in a different direction (loads of trouble with members of the opposite gender) although there is some corelation to the movement (i've watched many hours of tape of my own eyes). Anyway I was born this way, so my eyes have never both focused on any given point - and as a result my brain simply doesn't grok the concept of putting the two signals together into a "3D" world. This was painfully proven when I participated in a reasearch project where they used head mounted displays that were independently positioned for each eye, so that in a non-moving "rest" state each looked directly into the display. The result was a lot of major headaches to say the least.

    The bottom line is that "magic-eye" posters, red/blue 3d glasses, vr gogles, and this technology are bloody useless to me and anyone else with monocular vision; but then who cares? I don't. Go for it folks, if you can make this level of technology then just imagine what else you'll be able to do with what you learned trying to make it work.
  • as do i. also am a lefty too, wonder how common that is...

    i almost never have stereovision. or i dont ever knowst, a change. hmmm can you discrible what sterovision is like?

    nmarshall
    #include "standard_disclaimer.h"
    R.U. SIRIUS: THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE
  • Can someone tell me how the heck this thing works? The concept doesn't make any sense to me.

    Hold your hand in front of your monitor, fingers spread. How many fingers does it have? Now move it rapidly up and down. How many fingers does it appear to have?

    The trick is to trick the eyes.

  • > red/blue 3d glasses, vr gogles, and this technology are bloody useless to me

    One of the ways to treat binocular vision problems is with vision training. Basically this involves strengthening the muscles of the eye and training the person to gain better control. The reason I bring it up is that my wife (an OD) has a computer with a set of 3D glasses which are used for certain exercises. So this (& similar) technology may be useful to you after all.
  • Every example I have ever seen requires the viewer to be in a relatively constrained angle to the monitor to receive a true effect

    Yeh, that's my understanding too. Basically this display is a regular display covered with a lenticular lens, which directs different imagery to each eye, rather like those cheesy "3D" posters you sometimes see in airports.

    Does any one know of any other 3d visualization system being developed, any links would be most appreciated.

    I'm working at a company right now that's making a true volumetric autostereoscopic display that works on a different principle. Details are at the Actuality Systems website [actuality-systems.com].

  • I tried to RTFM, but it looks like their site has fallen prey to the slashdoteffect.
  • So, does it mean when you shift you head image would more and/or distort, like it happens with 3d postcards?

    Hey, I have an idea - display that displays one things to me and other things to somebody looking over my shoulder!
  • Well, this is obvious. They'll see things inside-out - everything standing out they'll see engraved in, and vice versa. Pretty funny effect, I guess.
  • > Currently the best field of view is around 30% with VR goggles. I am excited about 3D, but it seems funny that no one seems to be working on increasing field of view.

    I agree that field of view is very important for many applications, such as pharmaceutical design.

    But rest assured, people are working on it...

    This is a biased response -- our firm has developed (and is finishing up the next generation model) volumetric 3-D display with a 360-degree field of view: Actuality Systems [actuality-systems.com]

    That is, the imagery takes up a real volume, and multiple people can walk around the display to see it from anywhere in the room. We even have a demo set up that lets you pick up a joystick and fly a helicopter over a moving terrain.

    Anyhow, if you are interested in background information on 3-D displays in general, let me suggest: SIGGRAPH overview [mit.edu]

    and (by a team of students in Germany): Survey Article [vdivde-it.de]

    -Gregg Favalora

  • 3D Porn [blueyonder.co.uk] (not strictly porn, just someone in a bikini).
  • I'm monocular too, Oz. (Not that it cramps my style much when it comes to girl-watching.) I figure all they'd have to do is provide a software setting to toggle the 3-D effect on-off. Even normally sighted users might want the option, especially when the effect is worsening their hangovers...=)

  • Personally I find those magic eye pictures to be very disorienting and I have very little sucess with them.

    Generally, people have problems with them due to the unnatural eye position needed to view them, you have to be very cross-eyed. This sort of display doesn't require the unnatural eye position.

    What is potentially problematic with this sort of display, however, is how precisely you need to have your head position. To view 3-D for long periods, it needs to be *perfect* -- no times when the frames aren't quite in sync (left and and right eye not seeing a frame rendered with the same geometry), that sort of thing. An alternative technology is LCD shutter glasses, although the problem with them is that you effectively halve your screen refresh rate, and you have exactly the same potential problem with out of sync images.
  • The cool point here is "without glasses". As long as you need to hang something on your head, appeal will be limited.

    Hmm, a lot of us already view a computer with glasses. The key is they need to be as light as possible, wireless, shouldn't affect your view of the real world for the most part, and you shouldn't need to take them off when you get up from the computer.
  • Parallax depends entirely on binocular (stereoscopic) vision. With just one functional eye, you can't experience parallax without moving your head from side to side.

    Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
    Thought exists only as an abstraction
  • I used to have a real LCD display on an old 386 laptop.. When the polarized plastic layer started to come off, I took to wearing a pair of cheap sunglasses in lieu of the polarized film.

    Invisible to others, but crisp for me!
  • I did various forms of vision training for the first 10 years of my life... the "improvement" was purely cosmetic. I actually have pretty good muscle control, I can control exactly which eye I'm using at any point in time and switch back and forth between them *very* rapidly (enough to give both me and my eye doctor a headache due to the resulting blur :)
  • That's interesting.. so, that would mean the image effectively "hits" the screen and can't go any farther back, so wouldn't that kill some of the depth of the image and put things on the same plane that aren't mean to be?

    Actually the images can appear to be anywhere from the end of your nose to infinity (and beyond! B-) ). It's just that if they're far from the screen in either direction your eyes will try to focus on the apparent location, and end up DEfocussing the image (which is actually on the screen, not at the apparent depth). This can lead to eyestrain.

    A hack to avoid it is to compensate with glasses. If the images of interest are mainly far behind the screen, for instance, wear reading glasses. That will focus an image that is actually at reading distance when your eyes try to focus far away.
  • I have seen this display, both on science images and also on an "action" film (film with a camera mounted on a downhill skier). It's quite good - enough to attract my loose $$. I'm hoping that there will be an IPO in the not too distant future. It's quite a pleasant viewing experience, especially those images which "stand out" in the foreground - not like looking through a window at all, but appear to be floating in front of the display.
  • Which is exactly how you, with binocular vision, and I, with monocular, achieve parallax information/knowledge/sight for anything much more than an arms-length away.

    The disparity in images for anything three feet or more away (? perhaps it's 3 meters; doesn't much matter for my point) is so slight that the eye can not distinguish it: in geek terms, it's beyond the resolution of the eye.

    Kind of like depicting a circle on a display that's only 1 pixel per centimeter: the one at coordinates (10.25,10.25) looks exactly like the one at (10.45, 10.45) -- similar to the 'coordinates' of the things you see in your left eye versus your right.

    For some interesting examples of visual cues that do/don't involve binocular/monocular vision, see http://psych.hanover.edu/Krantz/art/index.html -- there are a half-dozen or more cues!

    http://aris.ss.uci.edu/cogsci/courses/psych9b/le ctures/lec7notes.html provides technical terms and discussion.

    http://schorlab.berkeley.edu/Lab/220read.html provides proof that if a graduate student blows enough smoke up the thesis committee's arse, he'll graduate with honours. Can technical writing become any worse than this? My gods.

    http://www.iversonsoftware.com/reference/psychol ogy/perception.htm also provides pretty pictures and examples.


    --

"You'll pay to know what you really think." -- J.R. "Bob" Dobbs

Working...