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Technology

Some Customers Can Roll Their Own DSL 174

Posted by timothy from the heaven-can-wait dept.
Allnighterking writes: "SBC has announced self installed DSL for large sections of their coverage area according to this article at CNN.com. More information available here for your area. Seems that they believe the support is available only for win98 at the moment with Linux et al support coming later. However, it's been my experience that with a little bit of networking knowledge and the external modem you can make it work on *nix now. The claim is that you can install in under one hour with 24/7 support available."
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Some Customers Can Roll Their Own DSL More

Some Customers Can Roll Their Own DSL

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  • I'm getting worried about the sudden surge of the popularity of high-bandwidth connections. In the past year, a lot of mainstream consumers have switched from dial-up to cable or DSL -- high bandwidth isn't just for techies anymore. And the current Internet backbone infrastructure just isn't built up enough to handle all the DNS requests brought on by all these DSL users.

    Remember back when DSL wasn't a buzzword like "B2B" and "total management solutions"? DSL lines were reserved for the people who actually needed and could make use of them!

    Now, DSL is so popular than it's exceeded cable modems in terms of number of subscribers. I can't get even get my DSL line to function half the time, because there's so many Napster kiddies all bombarding the DSL lines with their w4r3z and MP3 downloads. If someone doesn't come up with a solution to this (I've heard about bandwidth prioritiziers -- maybe those can offer a solution), we're looking at severe Internet congestion. Remember that AOL lawsuit that erupted because consumers couldn't access AOL -- it was always too busy? Expect a lot more of those in the near future.

    What's going to be the next refuge for the technological elite? I can't use DSL or cable anymore -- they've been taken over by the 12-year-old hoi polloi. So what's the next big thing going to be? Fiberoptics?

  • pppoe on linux? but of course. check this out [www.suse.de]
  • you would have fast, courteous installation, too!

    I waited months for my dsl to be installed.

    When the tech (finally) showed up a couple of days after the initial appointment date, he had me run the wiring from the phone box, as that wasn't part of his job. Ok, no problem.

    When it came time to install the dsl modem and software, he said that it only worked with Windows. I wanted to put the modem on a linux box that happened to have two ethernet cards. It took me 10 minutes to convince him that all I needed was the IP, netmask..., etc to get it up and running, and that YES, it WOULD WORK on linux.

    He finally showed me his work order, I configured the ethernet interface on the linux box and we were up and running in five minutes.

    So, I had to run the wire, and configure the box...good thing that I qualified for "free" installation.
    ---
    Interested in the Colorado Lottery?
  • 200 megabits a second is rather, uhm, fantastic, even for cable (even your PCI bus would have problems trying to keep up). Perhaps you mean kilobytes or kilobits a second?

    Kilobits are used generally for linespeed (ie, 56K, 1.5Mbps). Kilobytes are generally used for file transfer and are 8 times larger (ie, 7k/s, 192k/s).
  • Unfortunately, it isn't quite that easy. Every SBC subsidiary uses PPPoE as far as I know, so telling everyone's favorite braindead OS to fetch your IP info automatically won't do much good.
  • It was really quite easy -- sort've. I got my equipment via UPS June 27th; I immediately set about hooking everything up and getting my network set up for the change. I'm through-I turn on the modem...no sync. Damn!

    After calling them the next two days I get my line provisioned, and the modem syncs up. But it's not working. Bummer!

    I call that night, talk to a few different people (one of whom said my order had been cancelled but I'd doubt that is the case since I've been up and running for a week and a half now). None of them can help me (they aren't extremely knowledgable, but they're friendly). One promptly opened a trouble ticket.

    Late the next afternoon I'm sitting around in despair; the modem is mocking me! All the lights are shiny and green but it's not working! Suddenly the phone rings--it's a swbell technician asking if I'd like him to come over and check it out (this is late Friday afternoon). I tell him it's OK if he'd like to wait but he insists.

    About 20 minutes later he shows up and starts fiddling with my computers. It doesn't take me long to figure out he doesn't know as much about networking as I do (especially my own network!). He is at least computer literate though so I don't shoo him away (I just keep a close watch).

    Hours roll by, he can't get anything to work. He's been on hold with swbell for close to 45 minutes (and he was even in their priority queue!). Finally he gets through to somebody and starts explaining the situation. I've retired to my couch to read my latest gaming magazine. They chat for about 45 more minutes, and suddenly everything is working. Joy!

    It turns out that my line had been provisioned but they had forgot to 'check' something in their software at swbell (or ASI, as the case may be). It was a harrowing 3 day experience (and three week wait to get the equipment) but it turned out to be well worth it. The technician was pleasant and I am still indebted to him for sticking with it for so long (he didn't leave my house until after 7pm, on a Friday night!).

    The connection has been stable, no outages. The speeds are excellent; It's faster than the T1 I had when I lived in a dorm (downstream at least). It's a helluva lot faster during internet prime time, doesn't slow down at all that I've noticed.

    Just be prepared to spend some time on the phone fixing their mistakes if you go with this deal. I am quite pleased, and would just as soon cram a radioactive nuclear warhead into the dark recesses of my body as to go back to a dial-up modem.
  • Why not just use one computer as a proxy and IP translation and use one of the free sets of IP addys in your house, rather than taking up 9...

    Or would that be too sensible.

  • I suspect that this must be Nortel Networks' 1Meg Modem. Bell Canada's ISP, Sympatico, has been using this for a year and a half. For the past year they have been making their users use PPPoE. If SBC claims that it is for Windows only then they must mean that they only provide a Windows client. You can certainly get Linux to work. Sympatico provided a Linux client but is was terrible. You might try the Roaring Penguin client... its easy to use and works well.
  • I'm signing up for telocity DSL today. They do the self install kit. They also give you a static IP, don't care if you register a domain and point it to your DSL (as long as you don't run a biz off of it), and list UNIX under their supported OS's.

    Not too shabby...

    --
  • Just out of curiosity, couldn't this be controlled at the router level, since DSL isn't on the local loop? I got in before PPPoE and I'm just running Bridged Ethernet.
  • For those of you using Bell Atlantic DSL, and having trouble with it, you may want to check out http://www.telocity.com [telocity.com]. Having just set up a new phoneline and DSL for my apartment at school, I have become very disturbed at Bell Atlantic's ineptitude. In reviewing DSL service, at first I couldn't see anything good about paying ten dollars more for Atlantic Bell then the fifty dollars a month for Telocity. Looking into the features of each Telocity easily became a better deal, with 3 emails, *nix support, a static ip, 24/7 support, and remote dialup if you are away from home. However the truth of the service became even more clear as I waited for my phoneline to get hooked up. Bell Atlantic, although I do have phoning capability, is still reading a dead line when they test my line from headquarters. Telocity's DSL test, however, confirmed that while my telephone in Bell Atlantic's database was faulty, Telocity's real time testing tools confirmed that my line was both operational and ready for DSL. Basically be very very careful with both phone companies and DSL providers ... had I relied on the phone company to confirm my line was working properly I probably would have had to wait months for DSL and more then likely had to use them. I am very glad I did not get burned.

  • I'm a mac user. The significance comes in later. Anyway, I heard horror stories about slow install service from PacBell, so when I ordered extended (static-IP) service, I asked to do a self-install. This was about April 10. They said they normally don't allow that, but I assured the tech that I knew what I was doing (having installed a few ISDN modems before, and knowing DSL is much easier). Somehow I impressed the tech and he put my order through as a self-install. My line was set to be conditioned on April 25, and the modem was supposed to arrive soon after.

    My line was conditioned as promised, but no modem arrived. I spoke to three diffrent techs on two consecutive days. Finally I tracked down the problem. I have a Mac. They don't allow self-installs on a Mac. I asked why, but they had no straight answer. The real reason is probably nobody on their staff knows how, so surely no customer does....

    To aviod the whole shenanigan, I changed my order and asked them to have someone come out and install it for me. Now my install date was May 10. I crossed my fingers and hoped for the best. I really wanted the thing installed so I could start working from home via VNC. [att.com] I couldn't wait to end my commuting.

    Strangely, on May 5, I received a package from PacBell containing one DSL modem, one 10/100baseT NIC, 5 inline filters, a wall-mount filter, and one line splitter. "Hmmmm...," I thought. "It couldn't be as easy as plug and play, coult it?." The NIC was extraneous since I've got built-in 10bT ethernet (the DSL modem is only 10bT), so I plugged the DSL modem into the wall, and then ran a cable between it and the uplink port on my existing hub. I booted the Mac, entered the handily provided IP information and Voila! A quick trip to DSL Reports [dsl-reports.com] showed me downloading at over 1000kb/s. I couldn't have asked for a simpler install.

    The funny thing is, I've since received two notices from PacBell in the mail -- the last via priority certified US Mail. They apologize for not yet getting to my DSL install. I wonder when, if ever, I'm going to be charged for my DSL service. :) Aside from clueless employees, I'm a curiously happy PacBell customer.

  • US West has been doing this for at least a year. They ship you a modem and say to call if you have trouble. It's pretty brain dead: Plug yellow wire into NIC. Plug grey wire into phone jack. Plug black wire into wall wart. Any questions? :)

    --GnrcMan--
  • Your quick on the draw today. your knowledge of networking impresses me greatly!

    However, I think he already knows your devilish plan

    Nothing FreeBSD+NAT can't fix :)

    In geek speak that means he's doing exactly what you just said.

  • 1) Plug splitter into wall
    2) Plug DSL "modem" into data side of splitter
    3) Install NIC (ok, might be hard for some folks)
    4) Plug NIC into DSL device
    5) Boot Windows
    6) Tell Windows to "automatically configure IP information"
    7) Reboot Windows

    Done.

    This is news? :)

    Odds are they're doing it because they are SO backlogged on installs, they can't keep up. Time Warner did the same thing with RoadRunner here in Austin, for the same reasons.

    ---
  • Ditto. Cisco 675. Works with any OS. USWest- there were no techs, I wouldn't want them touching my box anyways.

    But I bet you already knew that.


    What do I do, when it seems I relate to Judas more than You?

  • Here in Austin there's a company advertising their "DSL Cable Modem Technology."

    Um...

    I guess they figured people had heard of "cable modems" before (they were rolled out before DSL) so they'd give the great unwashed something to latch onto...

    ---
  • Looks like PacBell is charging an extra $20/month for two years for a free PC. Where do I sign, I'll take three.
  • SBC has been busy advertising the hell out of DSL service in the areas where they are the ILEC. Unfortunately, most people are disappointed to find out that they're either too far away from the switch, or there's too many load coils, splices, etc. in the line. Of course, SBC isn't really sure of this either, and will frequently tell people that they'll try to give them DSL service, but they won't know if it will work or not until they attempt it. To make matters worse, Bell isn't being very forthcoming to the CLECs who offer DSL, in terms of letting them know the line conditions, distances, etc.

    Many who have gotten DSL from SBC are now complaining about frequent outages and poor service from customer support.

    Customers are being made to wait a long time for installation, largely because they don't have enough install technicians. So it's not a suprise that they're making the "roll your own" service available.

    SBC is trying to recreate the old AT&T several times over. They now push products like home security systems and DirecTV. The marketing department is trying to sell anything they can, frequently before they're actually ready to provide it.

    If you live in an area served by SBC, I highly recommend looking at the services your CLECs have to offer...you'll usually get better service at a lower price.
  • GTE has had the self install method since January in Southern California st least. I sined up for DSL about a month and a half ago and was set up in less than two weeks! Compared to the old way of installation that could take upwards of 7 weeks to install, this set up is great. It personally only toke me 10 minutes to set up. Open the box plug filters into phone jacks, plug in modem to computer, change IP, and presto fully functional broad band conection.

  • I installed my DSL myself. They sent me a box with the equipment and a CD for Windows. I got it running with Windows and then switched over to plugging the external DSL modem into my linux gateway (dual network cards, IP masquerading).

    I've got more of the ins and outs on my DSL diary [mihalis.net]

  • SBC attempts to push their Windows 98 solution dubbed "Enternet 300" which is a PPP-over-Ethernet (PPPoE) solution.

    I was annoyed it wasn't a DHCP solution, but it took me all of 15 minutes to find rp-pppoe on Freshmeat which has been working great for me for the last 2 months. A simple kernel patch, and an unpatched ppp-2.3.10 does the rest.

    I am using an old Dell P166/16MB to do IPMASQ, running a transparent squid proxy, bind for my internal network, and dhcpd for workstations (ie, bring a laptop over, boot up, you're online).

    Only bitch I have is upstream; 128Kb sucks. (I do get 1.5Mb down though)
  • Well i installed SBC's dsl self install kit and i had no problems with it (on my end). I do have knowledge of networking and have installed DSL before with no problems. When i did get my self install kit which was shipped via UPS (i had to be home to sign for it so i got it a day late...) The kit comes with a Kingston network card that i didn't end up using. I used the uplink port in my hub instead. The DSL modem (it isn't a router) into the hub and tried to sign on... nothing. I checked my settings and everything seemed in order so i called up my dsl provider (SNET) and they gave me the run around telling me to call three different numbers. after being on hold long distance for about 45 min. i hung up and gave up for the day. I figured that the problem was with snet's DSLAM and not a problem with my home pc. I called up tech support the next day and asked them to check the DSLAM configuration which they wouldn't do until they walked through all the trouble shooting steps on my side ... idiots yes.. so then he finaly checked thier configuration and i watched my dsl lights sync up with the ATM. before he got back on the phone i was at dslreports.com doing a speed test. Anyways the self install kit is very easy. only wish they had another wall mount filter... :)

  • BFD, I did this a year ago with USWest! You still have to wait for them to turn it on at the main office (ONLY took a month with USWest in Seattle). The second time I did this, I didn't even request the installation package. I just bought a used Cisco 675 on ebay, setup the modem, and was online. If this had information about skipping USWest (or whoever) and getting FREE DSL or even about paying for DSL but not having to wait a month to get service it might be interesting. As it stands, this doesn't seem like much to get excited about.
  • I've had it through my local TPC for a few weeks now. The installer took one look at my setup and let me do most of the installation myself. All he did was put a splitter box outside the house, and swap my single RJ11 for a double one. No PPPoE, no DHCP, just a Fujitsu modem and a piece of paper with IP addresses on it. Couldn't have been better, as far as I'm concerned. Took me a few hours to get the Linux firewall configured, but now it's great.
  • He calls it a mr. fatty. Sometimes he calls it dubbbie du whoop bop sha bang bang boogie. Or just a joint for those who are fucking retarded!

  • Heh... (Score:1)

    by Booker ( 6173 )
    Yeah, gosh, imagine if there were a bunch of PCs out there all running, say, Windows or something. A single email virus could wipe them all out!

    (Does it matter if they came from SBC, or from Best Buy?)

    p.s. you can keep yer domain.

    ---
  • My first machine was a kickass TI-99. I got this when I was about six and it was pretty sweet for it's day. I also got a Speech Synthesizer for it which was neat for it's time. I had a few games for it games like MunchMan, BurgerTime, Space Invaders, Hunt The Wumpus, and Alpine. Not Bad. Then I was given an Apple IIc with 128k RAM (standard, and quite a bit at the time). I loved that machine. It came with a Apple Composite Color monitor, and Imagewriter II. I eventually picked an unbelievably large 40Meg Chinook hard drive. IIc hard drives sucked...they were more spendy than what you could have gotten for the IIe at the same size. Anyhow...it was all good.
  • The uplink trick is fine for most people, but I think a lot of people with somewhat "valuable" data on their home networks (many gigs of MP3's, anyone???) would want some sort of block between them and that dsl box -- hence the router/firewall combo boxen that are popping up EVERYWHERE.

    :)
  • From direct experience, I know that Southwestern Bell Internet Service's 24/7 tech support means that you have to wait on hold a minimum of 24 minutes each call, and you have to make at least 7 calls before reaching someone who knows how to help you do anything other than power the modem off and on and reboot your machine.

    Edward Burr
  • In order to Masq. correctly with PPPoE, you need to set up your Masq. clients to use the same MTU as the server.

    So something like "ifconfig eth0 MTU=1492" on all your clients will do the trick.
  • And you think SBC is going to allow you to run servers without paying a premimum? I don't know about the specifics of their contract, but the couple of other DSL providing ISPs around here in Austin(such as the one my work uses) both charge substantially more (starting at over 100/month) for any contract allowing servers (or a metered contract). I would be more than a little suprised if SBC was any different.

    You may not be sharing bandwidth at your neighborhood node - but you are sharing it once you hit the ISP, and they do have a care about how much bandwidth you're taking up.

  • hmmm (Score:5)

    by heywood_jablowme ( 197033 ) on Monday July 10, 2000 @12:31PM (#944604)
    I know I roll my own, but I don't call it DSL...
    _________________________
  • Am I the only one who cringes every time tech-support says "DSL modem" or "cable modem"? Quick quiz, who remembers what modem means? It's modulate/demodulate, which is the warbling sounds modems make when two computers are connecting. My Timex/Sinclair 1000 sounded the same way when it was recording data to audio cassette tapes.

    My dsl ROUTER doesn't make that noise! Dig? It doesn't even plug into a parallel port, so hell yeah it's external... : )

    BTW, US Worst mailed me the modem and setup booklet a month before my DSL was operational. And, yes it works with linux.
  • i was very unhappy with PPPoE. but maybe I was just very unhappy with bell atlantic DSL.
    first, the do not advertize that they use PPPoE, so I had to figure that out myself, and obviously they are clueless about everything.
    there were 3 different solutions for PPPoE in Linux. The one i used [ottawa.on.ca] required a kernel patch and running pppd (PPPoE seems like useless overhead).
    i had to use a dynamic IP which forced me to use dynodns.net, and it was quite a pain with the firewall scripts. bell atlantic claimed there was no way to get a fixed IP with PPPoE.
    finally, the worst thing was that i would get disconnected all the time and had to log back in. a simple keepalive script helped with that.
    i canceled my DSL service with them.
    maybe someone else had a better experience with PPPoE?

  • "DSL speed ... stays consistent, as opposed to the shared systems used by cable companies where speed may decrease as more users sign up."
    So every customer has a dedicated T1 to each major NAP? Bitchin'.

    Let's say your neighborhood has cable. So from your neighborhood to the central network the bandwidth is 40MB/s. Now if 80 people are using it at once, each gets 500k/s. Let's say your cable provider has a OC-3 (155.52 Mbps). Now if your neighborhood is utilizing 100% of your 40MB line to the central router but the other four neighborhoods are only at 50% utilization, then your bottleneck is the 40MB/s line (since only 120MB/s of the OC-3 is being used). If all of the neighborhoods are at maximum utilization (200MB/s), then the bottleneck is their OC-3 line.

    With ADSL, your bottleneck can only be at the OC-3, since your bandwidth to the central router is always going to be the same. It's sort of like the queue system at Borders (everyone waits in one line for multiple cashiers), where cable is more like the queue system at McDonalds (multiple queues, if you get in a slow line, you're screwed).

    So the only problem I see with cable modems is that they have two potential bottlenecks before the data hits the net backbone, instead of one. I will admit though that if you are in a situation where bottlenecks aren't likely, the cable modem will deliver faster speeds. This may only be a short-lived situation as more people in your neighborhood get the need for speed.

  • PPPoE (Score:5)

    by spankenstein ( 35130 ) on Monday July 10, 2000 @12:32PM (#944608) Homepage

    I have DSL form swbell. I'm mostly satisfied but i couldn't figure out why i wasn't getting an address form dhcp. People in neighboring towns that had dsl just used dhcp and went.

    Well sbc now uses PPPoE (ppp over ethernet). I'm using rp-pppoe from Roaring Penguin. This is under Linux. [roaringpenguin.com]

  • I know everyone has already pointed out that home DSL setups are nothing new, but the discussion also seems to include some "how to get it to work under *nix" that I might be able to help with...

    I'm using telocity as my provider, and they sent me a kit w/ lovely windows instructions for install/config. You use some form of DHCP to find out what IP you are assigned from the ISP, but since you have a static IP I just used a winbloze box (my neighbor's that I borrowed for a minute) to quickly change to DHCP and run winipcfg to find my static IP and DNS info. I then fired up my linux box, changed the IP info over to the stuff I just learned, set the router to that I of DSL modem and fired off IP masq for the rest of the network.

    Looking back, I'm sure I could have had DHCP running under linux, but I had heard that needs a reboot to get the leasing.... and I'd hate to reboot.

  • If you get the DIY Plus special, you get 3 miles of copper wire, a trench digger, and right of way from your place of residence to the CO.

  • I read in the Wall St. Journal this morning that SBC is giving out free PC's to people who sign up for their xDSL service for a period of 2 years.
    The price of the xDSL is a little higher, but that pays for some of the cost of the PC. SBC said that they'll recoup the money on labor costs because they won't have to send out technicians to the homes because the PCs will be shipped pre-configured. I would imagine that they're also planning on making money over time by keeping the customer. Sounds like someone at SBC actually had a good idea!
  • If you installed it yourself, at least you would know that the installation tech was knowledgeable!


    ---
    Interested in the Colorado Lottery?
  • Heh, here the GTE tech showed up, fiddled with the jacks for a couple minutes and was done. He then looked at the CAT5 running along the walls throughout this place, and said "er, well, I guess you know what to do now". We smiled and nodded. He left.
  • Most DSL Providers already offer this option when you sign up for their service. It's usually cheaper and they also offer other options than the W9x variety. USwest, for instance, offers support under NT as well, and the DSL newsgroups you can find easy FAQ's on Linux setup as well. Basically all you're doing is setting an internal IP or using DHCP, so I'm not sure where the "One Hour" setup even comes in...
  • Yah, I got a cable modem from Cox (seriously hehe) after debating weither to get DSL or cable. I looked at bellatlantic prices compared to cox's (for 49.99 you get 150 k/s on a cable modem and simirally 30 k/s on a dsl) and the fact that they didn't have it in my area even though I literally live 2 miles from a station of theres. I also recieved a 5 dollar discount due to the fact I'm a cable customer, and free repair service (my cable modem went dead and they replaced it for free). Right now the service isn't lateral, and I've never been able to upload faster then 20 k/s. But they have promised to make the service lateral by the this winter, and I've recieved nothing but helpful service after some problems with the modem. Installation is also free. I still feel strongly for my cable modem (I give it the hot beefy injection every night), and in talking to friends they've given a lot of negative feedback about their DSL's performance. But oh well.

    BTW, who would seriously get a service who's acronym is Dick Sucking Lips?
  • Sorry, that should have been DSL diary [mihalis.net]
  • or you could buy a Linksys Etherfast Cable/DSL Router [linksys.com]... works great for me for my windows and my FreeBSD boxes simultaneously
  • Boy, that's the truth. My guy, from Bellsouth, took 4 hours, gave up, and left. I had to finish it myself. (Took me about an hour). Hey, come to think of it, I've already done this DIY DSL thing! It wasn't that hard.

  • Ahh... (Score:1)

    by Booker ( 6173 )
    Didn't know they were using PPPoE. Ick. I get my line from SBC, but service from elsewhere, with a "real" connection. :)

    ---
  • I started up my ADSL last August when it first became available in the St. Louis area. I've been incredibly happy with the download speeds etc. Uploads are, of course, slower thanks the the A in my ADSL but I'm not running a high volume web server or anything so who cares.

    Anyway, my telco is Southwestern Bell, but my ISP is First Class Solutions (http://www.firstclasssolutions.com). As a result, I'm not putting up with any of the crap that goes along with the standard SBC setup. I've got a static IP, 1.5MB down stream, no compatability problems with linux.

    I'm using an alcatel ADSL modem that connects straight to the wall and straight into eth0 of my linux box. eth1 connects to my hub and masqs my LAN out to the internet. I've had a total of about 20 hours downtime in the past year.

    Here's the only bad part of the story. If you move, it can take them for-freaking-ever to get the service setup again. I'm moving in with my fiancee just upstairs from my old apartment. It's taken them two months to get the service moved to the new apartment, and I'm doing the home installation MYSELF!! It's taken them two months to just map out a circuit and flip a few switches. So, there's my biggest complaint... in the meantime, dialup sucks.

    Quick question: Anyone know of a good website that explains how DSL works on the telco side. I'm just curious to learn why it took SBC so darned long!!
  • required the self install in our area
  • I am doing the same thing, but can add BeOS, Mac OS, Redhat5.1, and SheepShaver to that list.
  • Yeah. THat's what I said, in less detail.

    If they bridge, even with filtering, you still can't block *all* non-local traffic and still have things work. some broadcast traffic must get through. ARP. etc. It's layer 2, after all...

    The point of pppoe is to simply use the layer 2 infrastructure you built to tunnel PPP.

    Multiple IP addresses are easy to stop with filters.
    And PPP servers don't usually log.. radius servers do.
  • Why not set up an Ethernet network, use the Linux server for IP Masqerading and have the other systems share off the Linux box via a proxy server?

  • Re:Generally... (Score:4)

    by stripes ( 3681 ) on Monday July 10, 2000 @03:16PM (#944626) Homepage Journal
    In other words, they don't wanna waste address space building infrastructure.

    While that is a feature, there are some other nice advantages. If you want to have more then one type of service on a single circuit (say best-effor 100x over subscribed AOL account for one PC, and a mere 4x oversubscribed small-bisness account for another -- or even the same PC depending on what you are using it for) you can do it with PPPOE, while that is hard to impossable with DHCP.

    You can do a lot more configuration at a higher level. Tracking an account number is much simpler then tracking a set of MAC addresses (which will change if the consumer gets a new computer, or ethernet card - and may move from point to point on your network anyway!). Tracking an account number tends to be somewhat simpler then tracking a (Router,Card,Curcit-ID) tuple, and it simplifyes moves as well.

    It also disrupts a home network far less. You don't have to configure your network aware printer NOT to ask for a DHCP address (which would end up putting it on the global net, and possably using your only address!). If you have multiple computers allready on a network, and you want to put one on the Internet, this won't force you to get another card for it, or to sever it's connection with the existing network. This may be a rare case, but I assure you it was one the authors of the RFC did have in mind. Rember if your ISP does DHCP for you, it is a lot harder for you to also do DHCP for your local network!

    If the ISP allready has a RADIUS infrastructure set up for a large dial network, this allows them to reuse it for DSL. This is a fairly big deal because beleve it or not it is a pain integrate yet another database (DHCP's configuration) with allready existing order, payment, accounting, and other random systems at the ISP. A PPPOE baised DSL set up will look a whole lot like the existing dial set up (presumably with a higher monthly fee).

  • On Tuesday, July 11, paulywog asked:
    "Anyone know of a good website that explains how DSL works on the telco side."

    Try http://www.2wire.com (industry site, mainly an equipment vendor, rather than a circuit providers, but informative nonetheless.)

    or

    http://www.boardwatch.com

    Check with tech support at both sites (might require an email or two).

    Surprising that the ILEC (Incumbent Local Exchange Carrier, the holders of the wireline monopoly after the AT&T divestiture) in your area took so long. You also might want to contact the Consumers Public Utilities Commission in Missouri (NOTE: _NOT_ the Public Utilities Commission, they have been co-opted and, in most states, serve as rubber stamps for the local utilities.)

  • ok, ignoring the absolutely massive infrastructure issues relating to DSL (inter- Central Office card theft is happening), here's the deal:

    The self-install kit is the wave of the future, because the technician-install, from the Telco's perspective, is a total loss. The $99 tech install is basically equal to the loaded labor rate for the tech. And then touching the customers PC opens up a whole new arena of liability issues; when Joe Luser gets his $4k Gateway box to play solitaire and look at pr0n, and then subsequent to a tech performing some DSL voodoo under the hood, goes and fiddles and blows up WinDoze, guess who gets blamed?

    Add to that the fact that most techs who are savants w/transmission equipment are idiots on the PC end, making a legit tech-induced comp.snafu more likely, and you understand why the Telcos don't want techs any closer to the customer than the local b-box.
  • They used a kind of conditional wording tho.
    "Often do not"
    That right there is the kicker. That means they can say well we said often not always or never.

    Often is a lot harder to prove than always/never


    If you think education is expensive, try ignornace
  • A friend of mine tried this for a customer that needed a connection between buildings about a mile apart. It's called a "fire alarm circuit", and it's straight copper point to point. At first TPC promised they could do it, then reneged, then agreed, then reneged AGAIN. It seems they're wise to this trick and now won't do a circuit that doesn't go through the CO. It may still be possible to get in some areas though. Last I spoke to hime he was trying to get the local electric company to let him use their pole space to run his own fiber without much luck.
  • No unfortunately its a Fujitsu Speedport. Of course if anyone has some interesting info on them I'd love to hear it.
  • I did a self install in May 2000. It took me 10min to get it to work. Booting up thr linux box took 2 of those. They provided me with a address where i could download the sbc pppoe client for linux. I downloaded it and worked fine. Later i switched to roaring penguin pppoe because of its's firewall power.
  • uh, 5,24someodd feet is a mile right? so he's only about 600 feet short... nothing a little cat 5 through the neighbors kitchen couldn't fix...
  • Thankfully, Bell Sympatico lets you install your own if you ask for it. Basically, when they mentioned the $80 installation fee, I asked a few questions. Since I had already had the poor boy running to his manager from questions before, he said, 'Well, it's basically installing the card in your computer and the external modem. I think you can do that on your own'. Right. We nixed that in a hurry.

    Droit devant soi on ne peut pas aller bien loin...
  • I think your information is out-of-date and/or misleading. I've had no problems with Roaring Penguin's free PPPoE implementation for linux [roaringpenguin.com]
  • I went the DSL self-install route with Southwestern Bell (SBC owned). They lost and recreated my order 3 times, sent the modem and materials to the wrong address, failed to include necessary parts in the order, then refused to activate my line for almost a month for purely bureaucratic reasons.

    Then the "install guy" shows up and I have to argue with him over the fact that I was classified as a self-install and didn't want his help.

    The "24-hour" tech support consists of warm bodies with no technical knowledge answering the phones outside of business hours to create "trouble tickets" for the real tech-support people during the day. My average hold time was about 45-minutes.

    The entire process took 3 months, despite the fact that it consisted of sending me a box full of stuff and flipping a switch in the main computer to set my line as "active."

  • bell atlantic has this available in parts of New York state (Infospeed [bell-atl.com]). I had to install the passive filters myself, and the guy never even had to come into my apartment. They had software which came with the package, which worked on Win98, but not on 2000 or FreeBSD, but I've bought a Linksys DSL router which has 4 ethernet ports, and connected it to the DSL modem, my win2000 box, and my FreeBSD box. It has a built in firewall, and automatically reconnects.

  • Whilst I'm replying to myself I should probably add that not only does the DSL from BA work with linux, but yesterday I had no problems getting a 400kbit stream from real.com which compares favourably with the advertised max. speed of 640kbit. Of course it was Christina Aguilera so once I proved it could be done I turned it off...

  • you know that old dude who climbs the ladder outside your house and connects your phone line? They gave him a laptop for testing, called the thing a "modem" and set him loose.
  • I've had it since october 99, with two(2) people on the node with me... currently there are 157 people on the node with me... slight change in surfing, downloading or general speed. went from 300kilobytes per second, (yes, about 3mb per sec, when the server on their end let's me)35 ping on wod quake2 to about 260 kilobytes per second... (2.6mb per)47 ping on wod quake2. hmmmmm... 256kilo"bits" dsl is still about 1/8th as fast, and there is a max 250 people for my node... cable modem is just plain faster at the base level... now, if i wanted to pay for 7meg up/down dsl to my home, then it would be faster. But for $40 a month, you can't beat cable.

  • This is somewhat old news, I (and many others) got DSL self-install over a year ago.

    I got service from PacHell, in February 1999. It came with a static IP and bridged connection, back before they went to PPPoE. I couldn't be home for the installation, so got a self-install. PacHell, always the paradigm of efficiency, had to drive a technician out to my house to give me the box so I could install it.

    The box contained an Alcatel 1000 ADSL modem (the defective version, ancient "AA" ROM's, but that's another story), a splitter box, an ethercard (generic "tulip", glued together by Kingston), and various cables.

    My landlord did not allow me to change the outside wiring nor run new phone line, so I took my one working jack (under the bed) and stuffed my splitter there! I split the two wires from that jack into four; two pairs, one for voice and one for DSL. After much reading I discover that the DSL modem uses the outside two wires of the phone line (yellow and black), not the inside wires that are used for voice and everything else (red and green)! Changed the wires on the splitter box and was good to go.

    Installed without a hitch, used a static IP for just over a year. After that, I moved, and lost my grandfathered static IP, and had to do PPPoE...

  • USWest (now QWest) offered self installation over 2 years ago. You just plug the stuff in on your end, nothing special. You get NO benefit other than the saved installation cost.
  • Woud DHCP have been more useful? (I believe it's automatically supported by Linux; some ISPs use it instead of PPPoE. However, it's only fifth in the Best Protocol Poll. [slashdot.org]) Or did you specifically require a fixed IP? Just curious.

    sulli

  • Re:PPPoE (Score:3)

    by Jeff Nelson ( 63201 ) on Monday July 10, 2000 @04:21PM (#944654)
    This is because when SWBell used DHCP, customers of basic service could load up as many computers as they wanted on the line, and all of them would grab an IP.

    Not exactly what they wanted.

    So they changed the system last month and now people are forced to pay extra for the enhanced service to get more IPs. They still limit you on that though, as I currently have about 9 computers in my house. Nothing FreeBSD+NAT can't fix :)
    Overall their service is great, I've had it since April 12, 1999 and in that time it has gone out twice. I also have an appointment to install the self-install kit for a client Wednesday. Thanks for the business, SWBELL!!
    -Jeff
  • PacBell offered me this a few weeks ago. They balked on my Linux box, but I adeptly changed my tune to get the Win98 "support".

    The only problem is that they haven't delivered anything yet, and this is the second time we've ordered DSL at our current address (the first order evaporated, even though they're billing me for it).

    Word to the wise: You may want to get the self-install option no matter what. The last PacBell guy to install DSL at our old apartment did the following:

    • failed to bring tools.
    • borrowed my wife's staple gun to run the wire all around the apartment, through doorways, around moldings, etc., using office staples.
    • miswired it, or apparently put a staple through the wire at some point, because it took 3 repair runs to stop the random carrier losses.
  • Here in Lexington, Kentucky, demand for ADSL has been so great that GTE has started a self-install promotion also. They give you the splitter, the modem, the jack, etc, etc, and you get to do it yourself. Then they only have to come out if it doesn't work. See http://www.gte.com/dsl/sys_reqs_equip.html for their blurb on this.

    I for one am glad they weren't doing this back when I got DSL on my line -- my house is about 70 years old and my phone lines were about 50 years old ; they came in and rewired everything from the pole on the street to the wall jack -- for free. Gotta love those early bird install specials...
  • I'm with you on this. I've got GTE ADSL and the setup was nothing. I don't even think it took 30 minutes. Hell, I spent more time waiting in line at the UPS parcel pickup counter.

    FYI for those of you using routers...don't bother. I can get multiple connections running at once by plugging the DSL modem into an uplink port on a little cheapo hub and use straight CAT 5 to hook up the ethernet cards on my machines.

  • ...is that this program is only for a portion of their coverage area. And their DSL coverage area only covers a small fraction of their service area.
    --

  • Cable is well and good until either (A) everyone in the neigborhood gets it and nukes the bandwidth or (B) you want to run a web/name/other server and the company forbids it.

  • Re:Generally... (Score:4)

    by BeBoxer ( 14448 ) on Monday July 10, 2000 @01:13PM (#944680)
    Eh? I don't think this is why they run PPPoE. It's easy enough to set up DSL so that each user is bridged in and gets a single IP address. However, this approach has some security drawbacks. One is that it's hard to keep people from hooking up more than one computer, and grabbing more than one real IP address (or a whole ton of IP addresses.) It's also pretty hard to track down who did what when without PPPoE. If the evil hax0r kiddie changes his MAC address, steals an IP (instead of going thru the DHCP server), starts his DoS attack, and then puts his MAC back to normal and DHCP's an address, the ISP is going to have a hell of a time figuring out which user that traffic came from. They will have an IP address, but it was never assigned. If they happen to have an arp entry, they may have a MAC address. But, it's a MAC that isn't on the network anywhere. They could keep a log of every change in the bridging tables, but I'm not sure how realistic that is. Even then, and "smart" kiddie will change his MAC address to one used by a legit user, so when the ISP starts looking around they will track the traffic down to the wrong house.

    On the other hand, getting an IP address from PPPoE requires you to login. So, any traffic from that address is provably from that user. All neat and tidy. Any reasonable PPP server will easily log each login session. Much easier from an ISP's point of view than dealing with the limitless ways a customer can screw with a plain old DSL line (or a cable modem. Most of the problems I mentioned apply to them both.)

  • Just got SBC DSL today... (Score:3)

    by David Price ( 1200 ) on Monday July 10, 2000 @01:34PM (#944686)
    They told me that I'd have to have a technician install my DSL.

    Then they ship me the 'customer self-install kit' a few days before my appointment with the technician, which includes a DSL modem, ethernet card, crossover cable to connect the two, and a bunch of filter boxes that connect to the phones on the line with DSL to strip out the noise. I call up and ask if, since i've received the customer install kit, I can in fact do my own installation. No, I'm told, I'll have to have a technician install it, and there must have been some mistake in shipping me the kit.

    The technician shows up this morning, and the only thing he does that I couldn't have done with a page of instructions was to plug a signal meter into the line with DSL on it and declare the quality sufficient. Then all he did was monkey around on my Windows machine installing the PPPoE software, signed on in the 'register new user' account, pulled up the online signup page, and let me type in my preferred username and password.

    That signal meter reading apparently costs $99, because that's how much a technician install costs. Self-install is free.

    So, my non-technical tip of the day: if you get DSL from Southwestern Bell, and they send you a self-install kit, self-install.

    The technical tip for the day: PPPoE works just fine with SBC DSL. If you've got a development kernel, build it with 'packet socket' and 'PPP over ethernet' options enabled, and apply this patch [uwaterloo.ca] to a recent version of pppd.

    My /etc/ppp/options looks like this:

    defaultroute
    plugin /etc/ppp/pppoe.so
    name mylogin

    And my /etc/ppp/pap-secrets looks like this:

    mylogin * mypass

    To bring up the ppp link, i just type pppd eth0.

  • As mentioned, aside from SBC doing the "roll your own" kits to simplify installation, they're also doing the "free PC" to simplify installation. But this raises a question in my mind.

    Let's say that SBC is very successful with their free PC offer. Of course, a few crackers will be receiving these as well. And they will probe them for vulnerabilities and will find them. I don't mean to cast some fear/uncertainty/doubt here. But I wonder if having a large number of computers with identical vulnerabilities constantly connected on a tight range of IP addresses / hostnames will make them very prime targets for attack? ("Attack" means unwitting hosts for software for coordinated denial of service attacks, IRC bots, etc.)

    Please help me out here. Am I being silly, or is this a serious concern?

  • "DSL service is flexible enough to grow with the skills and interests of our users."

    I couldn't tell you what this means. Sounds pretty inane to me.

    "DSL is as reliable as your phone."

    I live in an upstairs flat. That means, one family lives downstairs and I live upstairs. I have Ameritech DSL, they have Media One Cable. I current (for the past 5 months) have had better than 93% uptime. My downstairs neighbor has had just over 61% (61.224%). At least here, DSL has been dramatically more reliable than cable. The only time it's been down is when, amusingly enough, my phone service was down as well, due to a storm.

    "DSL speed ... stays consistent, as opposed to the shared systems used by cable companies where speed may decrease as more users sign up."

    Again, with the same test-bed as above, my service gives me a constant speed as a rule. I've not yet seen a slowdown. Downstairs, when they first signed up, they never had a speed problem. Now, they get much slower downloads since more people have signed up. Additionally, Friday at 8:00 PM, they might as well be on a modem. The traffic is nearly at a HALT. *shrug* I dunno if it's true in all places, but both here in Detroit and in Upstate NY it happens to be.

    "Cable modem services often do not support a wide variety of Internet applications."

    I have two takes on this. Both Media One Cable and Road Runner Cable support (i.e. provide support) for a very limited number of programs. Specifically they'll support Internet Explorer (5.0, but not any other version, even upgrades), Windows 95 and Windows 98 (not NT, not 2000, not Linux, NOTHING else). If you're running Netscape, they won't help you. If you're having trouble figuring out how to telnet, you're out of luck. Having trouble with a firewall, you're out of luck.

    The other side is, there are applications that they don't support, in that, both Road Runner and Media One will discontinue your account for running a server. When I inquired about running servers with my sales rep., he specified that servers were no problem. When I asked about it while speaking to technical support, they replied as if it were the most unintelligent question in the world when they said "yeah, run all of the servers you want, it's your bandwidth". Review of the terms and conditions also mentions that servers are allowed.

    I'm not necessarily defending their marketing crap, I'm just trying to explain.

    Mark this -1, Overrated


    -Jer
  • I thought that 'xDSL' was just a generic term encompassing aDSL, sDSL, etc....

  • Generally... (Score:3)

    by mindstrm ( 20013 ) on Monday July 10, 2000 @12:35PM (#944692)
    The only thing that is a bit different with today's dsl providers (and perhaps cable soon) is their use of PPPOE. (ppp over ethernet). The reason? They bring things out to the home at layer 2 (ethernet), rather than the more traditional layer 3, but want to really give you a layer 3 anyway. In other words, they don't wanna waste address space building infrastructure.

    This is actually a good thing.. it's just a bit different.
  • The main problem I had was that the modem was shipped from the other side of town via 2-day UPS, the day before the install date.

    UPS takes their 2-day shipping very seriously, so of course it arrives 5pm the day after the install. Fortunately, the SBC guy had one old Alcatel 1000 in the truck. I suppose self-install would help with this, because you wouldn't have to waste a day off from work if the modem doesn't show up.

    A big problem while wiring things up was that the telco guy forgot to remove the half-ringer (a little gray block hidden under the phone jack thingy in the junction box) and I was getting a shit connection because of it. Another problem was that either the modem or the splitter or both expected the signal on black/yellow. So I just bridged the damn pairs in the dual phone jack I bought for the line.

    The final problem was that while SBC was the "dialtone" provider for the DSL, they weren't the ISP. I had jump.net (which I am entirely happy with), and I had a fixed IP block. The telco guy was on a conference call with the ISP and the phone company for half an hour before I realized I had a /24 netmask, not a /29! (My DSL is a bridged Ethernet link.)

    And there was a good part... when the telco guy tested my line, he said my maximum download (with the extra cost higher speed option, of course) would be 2.7 or so Mbps download, nearly twice a T1 and about half the maximum.
  • In areas where you can sign up with various ISPs via a single telco's DSL, is the PPP connection actually backhauled to your ISP before you get to the Internet?

  • SBC DSL vs Cable Modem... (Score:4)

    by AtariDatacenter ( 31657 ) on Monday July 10, 2000 @12:37PM (#944695)
    I was looking at this. I'm currently evaluating SBC's ADSL versus a cable modem from COX Cable. But to be quite honest, I've come to the judgement that the SBC deal just isn't as good. The cable modem offers substantially more bandwidth, and I'm not tied into a contract. (And COX doesn't even require or charge a premium if I'm not a cable customer.)

    Rolling my own may save a bit of time, but I'd be willing to wait even a month to get a better service elsewhere. Anyhow, that's my person take on it. Your mileage may vary.

  • SWB = South Western Bell
    SBC = Southwestern Bell Corporation
  • This is the same setup that came with my GTE DSL. They Fedexed me the modem, some line filters, a CAT 5 Cable and a CD. I personally didn't use the CD, but their service is setup to use DHCP. I easily installed my 2 Win98 and 1 Redhat machine (over a cheap 10BaseT 8 port hub). The service didn't complain about me using 3 IP's so I assume you can install multiple machines through GTE with no problems (or maybe my bill will be more than I expected!! :)).
  • I noticed the box my Kingston card came in had the "100baseT" box marked, but it was just a plain old 10baseT card. :(
  • SBC is planning to have most of their major metropolitan areas upgraded for total DSL coverage by the end of 2001. I presume this will be done by putting DSLAMs in the sheds. (You know, the sheds with two doors that each have a five-button lock.)

    This link has PDF maps [sbc.com] of the planned coverage areas.
  • My dsl ROUTER doesn't make that noise! Dig? It doesn't even plug into a parallel port, so hell yeah it's external... : )

    That's because your ears suck. The whole point of DSL is that the DSL modems use frequencies higher than you can hear. And what's left is supposed to be taken care of by the splitter/filters.

  • I have the dubious honor of being the first paying customer for Nevada Bell DSL -- now a part of SBC Advanced Internet Services -- in Northern Nevada (the Reno area). My service was installed over a year ago. At the time, I elected to go with "Nevada Bell Internet," a re-brand of PacBell Internet...and an unwanted step-child it was, too.

    In the early days, NBI was using bridging mode instead of PPPoE, so it was no problem at all to shift the install from the Windows 98 system I stuck in front of the installer to the Red Hat Linux system that functions as my NAT firewall.

    Because of a number of issues documented elsewhere (dslreports.com [dslreports.com]) I fired NBI and went with another ISP, a then-local company called Pyramid.Net.

    One of the reasons I went with Pyramid.Net was the promise from the operator that they would continue to use bridging mode, instead of moving to something like PPPoE. They have kept their promise.

    Pyramid.Net is not the only "partner" to SBC to provide briding mode access, which is a true always-on service (as opposed to the necessity of logging in a la PPPoE) with a surprisingly high availability.

    Moral of this tale: go with a "partner", not the [A-Za-z]+ Bell Internet company.

    The newsgroup comp.dcom.xdsl regularly carries postings from people with horror stories. Note particular those stories told by Bell Atlantic customers...

  • GTE told me my install date would be 08/11, so I spent most of 08/10 wiring, adjusting, setting up and "make-ready"ing everything I knew I'd need. He shows up bright and early on the 11th (I know, shocking, isn't it?) and rings my doorbell. I open the door, ask him kindly for the equipment, assure him I know what I'm doing, and he wanders off chirping happily about something relating to an hour break.

    I had my DSL, complete with outside splitter, running in about a half hour or so, and I'll never go back to dial-up. :)

    --------------------

  • It's probably much easier to do than this old story [slashdot.org]. What do those phone guys do, anyway?

    I have a friend who recently got DSL through NorthPoint. The USWest guy came out, climbed the pole, came down, scratched his head a few times, then repeated the process a few more times. He seemed really pessimistic about getting an SDSL setup in a fairly old home with elderly telco equipment, but on his second visit, he managed to get everything perfect. Two wires ran from from the pole to his house, and were bolted into a box on the side of his home. He opened the thing up, told him "you didn't see this", then unhooked one wire and connected it to the other bolt! All of a sudden, he had 416kb DSL 17k feet from the CO instead of a 24kbps modem connection...

    What do those guys do all day???

  • Why is this new? (Score:3)

    by apocalypse_now ( 82372 ) on Monday July 10, 2000 @12:40PM (#944721) Homepage
    I have Bell Atlantic (ugh) DSL, and they have these little "Self-install" kits they ship out. Takes w hopping 30 minutes to set up. Am I missing something here?
    --
    Matt Singerman
  • Ahh, but you dont know about mediaone in *some areas*. Where I am, we can just ask for more DHCP delegations and they just ask for a MAC address and dont care what you connect to the other end.

    And your stupid to run a server on cable or dsl. Thats why I have a colocation box.

  • Yeah... but did you see the strings attached? Not only do you have to lock into a two year contract (with heavy severance penalties), but you have to pay a $200 "shipping and handling charge" . Come on. How stupid do they think their customers are? I hate it when a telco shows their true colors. (Want to bet they won't let me just "pick it up" from them to avoid the shipping fee?)

  • if you get SBC basic dsl and don't run Win32... (Score:5)

    by vyesue ( 76216 ) on Monday July 10, 2000 @12:44PM (#944744)
    If you're in my boat, and you get basic DSL from SBC thru your telco, you're goign to be using (as others have mentioned) PPPoE.

    If youre using windows to control your router, this is probably an ok situation. however, there appears (at this time, anyway) to be a significant lack of quality PPPoE options for people running linux; people runnign openbsd (at least as of the time that I installed my DSL) are completely screwed.

    the solution: the Cayman (www.cayman.com [cayman.com]) 3220H. this little box is a very fullfeatured router that operates on its own - no need to have a computer control it, which means that you can reboot your gateway machine without losing your IP. all PPPoE negotiations are done by the router itself.

    I have one of these; I don't work for or own any of Cayman, just thought I'd let you people knwo the option is available. usually your telco or sbc or whatever will charge you like another hundred bux or so for this box, but in my opinion, it's well worth it.

    (note that you'll have to download the newest operating system image from the Cayman site and flash it onto your router in order for it to properly do PPPoE, but that took all of about 3 minutes to do.)

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