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Cryonics "Noah's Ark" 70

Posted by michael from the wrath-of-khan dept.
Baldrson writes: "The New York Times reports that architect Stephen Valentine has been commissioned to build a $180 million cryonics "Noah's Ark" theme park and hospice. The purpose will be the preservation, and amusement, of all manner of biological samples, including humans. Among the supporting groups is the nonprofit Stasis Foundation which has been involved in bail-outs of cryonics companies (euphemism for cryonics companies in necrosis). This announcement is particularly timely given this weekend's Foresight Institute Senior Associate Gathering. Biblical themes may evoke religious contributions from aging boomers to push the envelope, but never underestimate the passion of the dog breeders." The vision that comes to mind is Michael Jackson's head in a glass jar.
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Cryonics "Noah's Ark"

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  • The purpose will be the preservation, and amusement, of all manner of biological samples, including humans.

    wooyaaah... We're done for now.

  • in a capitalist society.

    Let's assume the technical problems are solved..

    As long as the service of being cryogenically preserved is a commodity, unsubsidized by the government or most insurance, the rich, prominent, and powerful will be the people self selected to undergo the service.

    These people will also set up bank trusts, etc. to preserve their interests as they lie dead and frozen. They will influence politics to preserve their property rights as they lie dead, concentrating more and more property and political control in the hands of the dead and their trustees.

    I can even imagine the trusteeships being battered back and forth in the marketplace, as the companies that control the wealth of the dead compete with each other.

    All in all a fucked up scenario. What do people think about existing or prospective national and international law to deal with this problem? Mind you, I'm partial to the belief that either we have to live in a differnet economic system, or we must make cryogenics a state supported medical service available to all - decided by lot, democratic selection, condition of health or some other scientific standard.

  • There is an assumption at the root of any time capsule style museum, that there is something worth preserving in our wasteful civilisation.


    The entirety of Western civilisation is based on the need to build new technologies and exploit the rest of the world for resources, both mineral and intellectual, to make this as rapid as possible. Since the 15th century, when Europe first cast its greedy eye outwards towards far away lands beyond its borders, we have seen this process of exploitation in action. Western civilisation isn't really a civilisation at all - it is a production base for the development of new and incredible technologies.

    Culturally, we have produced very little. The Stone Age people of the Andaman islands are far more advanced spiritually and philosophically than we are, in our material lust for hamburgers. Every time we visit Walmart we are raping the third world a little more, and yet we think ourselves so advanced. We are a virus, feeding of off those greater than we are, and our time will surely pass.

    Why this desire for immortality? A civilisation at peace with itself is not afraid of death, and does not try to extend its legacy beyond the normal span. Are we really so facile that we must seek immortality for our pauperish contribution to world culture?

    I fear we are. I think that we should attend to the here and now, and start to right the wrongs we have wrought, rather than embarking on an exercise of vanity, and patting ourselves on the back.
    --

  • A $180 million what? (Score:3)

    by L Fitzgerald Sjoberg ( 171091 ) on Sunday April 22, 2001 @10:01AM (#273978) Homepage

    "Theme park and hospice," there's a phrase you don't find in many business plans.

    Anyhow, if this is a Noah's Ark of Cryonics, will the storage areas be measured in Ice Cubits?

  • why should it be available to all? Your gonna preserve all the welfare mothers? wake up to reality it's a biz of coures the rich will be the one they are the ones who can a fford it. I didn't know that crygenic's was a right that all the people are entitled.

  • Re:Cryonics will fail (Score:3)

    by blair1q ( 305137 ) on Sunday April 22, 2001 @10:06AM (#273980) Journal
    Yeah. Sure. Socialized lunacy.

    Unless you believe that cryonics is capable of paying off in reanimation.

    Then your model falls apart, because the frozen will return to manage their money.

    But your fear is already doomed to be realized. Inheritance preserves wealth almost as surely as Trust does. We're already overrun with inbred billionaire brats. So whether their parents are popsicles or worm-food is moot.

    --Blair
  • Spiritually and philosophically don't cure diseases or make plants grow better. Its technology that makes things better.

  • Ten-to-One against more than half surviving the reviving process, if we ever get there.

    But thats not the big problem. Do they really expect that anyone in the prime of their life will take part in this not knowing if they will live through it, or even ever be revived. Can you picture a bunch of elderly peoplewho have been revived trying to keep civilization in a post-apocalyptic world? Our world will end, not with a bang, but with geriatrics with walkers. Sad

    Ciao

    nahtanoj

  • "The world would be a bleaker place without homosexuality"

    And they contribute what exactly....? I'm not aware of too many gay animals. Maybe you would care to point out some examples of them? If your whole point is to preserve the species then gay animals aren't going to help.

  • The Long Run? (Score:3)

    by nlh ( 80031 ) on Sunday April 22, 2001 @10:15AM (#273984) Homepage
    I think this whole notion of cryonics is a wonderfully optimistic and exciting prospect, but I am extremely skeptical as to whether any of the current practices or organizations can last in the long-run, if only from a pure business perspective.

    Look at it this way: In order to be frozen, one must be involved in one of these organizations, as the article discusses. These organizations involve resources to maintain themselves and their "members".

    The NYT article mentions that Timeship will need to have be "energy self-reliance (solar or geothermal), as well as resistance to natural and man-made disasters like earthquakes and terrorist bombings."

    But no mention is made of *business* self-reliance.

    How long is it going to be until our medical knowledge progresses to the point where we can un-freeze the people currently frozen and "fix" them? 50 years? 100 years? 300 years?

    And how many technology businesses do you know that have been around for that long?

    Unfortunately, unlike a cemetary, a cryonics business involves continuous financial need and maintainance, as well as personnel training (who's going to un-freeze all of these people/things?).

    Even with organizations like Stasis (non-profit that's supposed to solve this problem), who's to say that they're going to be around in 300 years? One of the guys in the Cryocare annual even says:

    "Paul said he simply disagreed that a non-profit company is more secure than a for-profit company."

    I'm a skeptic.

    Any thoughts on this?

    nlh
  • Culturally, we have produced very little. The Stone Age people of the Andaman islands are far more advanced spiritually and philosophically than we are

    This coming from someone with a Glasgow professional soccer team set as their homepage? Please. What a troll. What have *you* ever contributed, spiritually or philosophically, to the world?


    ------------------------------------------------ -- -----------------

  • The entirety of Western civilisation is based on the need to build new technologies and exploit the rest of the world for resources, both mineral and intellectual, to make this as rapid as possible.

    Obviously you are a troll, but (for example) how has the western world exploited the non-western world in the computer industry? Do semiconductor companies hire sea pirates to steal all of the valuable sand on the shores of Africa and Asia?

  • Forcing a bull to copulate with a cow violates both their human rights if it violates their sexual preferences.

    Whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa....

    Back the truck up sparky. Since when have animals ever enjoyed the luxury of human rights?

    Noah's ark was to save a sample of each species so that they might replenish the earth. If i remember my high school biology correctly, a bull dry humping another bull ain't gonna make any calves anytime soon.

    One could argue that by saving a male and female of each species (regardless of sexual preference) and having them mate, they would ensure the existence of their brood (who would have whatever sexual orientation they came equipped with.)

    I'm tired of using my common sense now.

  • Forcing a bull to copulate with a cow violates both their human rights

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but how the hell can a bull and cow have human rights? I don't think cows can make moral claims against human beings, so how is it they have human rights?

  • Clearly the only answer is suicide.

    Please do so now - you'll have escaped the bleakness you see around you & save the rest of us the annoyance of your sophmoric bs.

    No, I'm not kidding. If you're not medically depressed but truly believe your posting then either achieve something or get out of the way.

    For those tempted to mod this as a troll - go read the original posting. While my response is harsh it's not unreasonable.

  • Even with organizations like Stasis (non-profit that's supposed to solve this problem), who's to say that they're going to be around in 300 years? One of the guys in the Cryocare annual even says:

    "Paul said he simply disagreed that a non-profit company is more secure than a for-profit company."

    I'm a skeptic.

    The only 300-year-old company I can think of is the Hudson's Bay Company [hbc.com], and that's certainly a for-profit outfit. I don't think there is anything else resembling a business that old, except possibly a bank or two in Italy.


    ------------------------------------------------ -- -----------------

  • Its too bad this was not available when Noah's Ark was around. The unicorns could have been saved (if they existed, of course).

  • ArchieBunker writes:
    I'm not aware of too many gay animals

    Clearly Archie hasn't been around animals much. Homosexual sexplay is common among animals. So is homosexual pair-bonding. Indeed the higher one gets in social sophistication the more likelyhood of homosexual critters. Elephants, dolphins, geese, dogs, all have well documented examples of homosexual members.

  • Uh, dude, he may be trolling in a general sense, but get your facts straight... Wal-Mart uses third world child labour to create some of its products (mainly products that come from China).

    General laws that Wal-Mart has broken:

  • who's the bigger moron Ann Marie or the stupid moderators that moded this garbage up?
  • Hehe, go to the nearest cattle farm and check out the steers. I'm sure you will soon see some pretty gay behaviour.

    Actually, gay behaviour is very common amongst many animals. It just doesn't fit in with our idea of what is "natural" so it's been sort of a taboo subject or a blind spot of zoologists for a long time. There are however literature on the subject.

  • They could put Walt Disney on display, giving a whole new meaning to a "Disney theme park."
  • What the fuck? Why would slashdot even think about posting this?

  • "Average suspension fees range from $28,000 to $150,000" How could the average vary so widely, and what is a high cost? Also, where is a theme park mentioned in the article? I didn't see it, but I am not the best reader in the world.
  • "But your fear is already doomed to be realized. Inheritance preserves wealth almost as surely as Trust does. We're already overrun with inbred billionaire brats. So whether their parents are popsicles or worm-food is moot." What is wrong with giving your own money to your own children?

  • We are a virus, feeding of off those greater than we are, and our time will surely pass.

    Who let the troll out?

    OK, you've been watching "the Matrix" far too often and were taking the things said in it far too seriously. You must remember, my friend, that although "the Matrix" is an immensely enjoyable movie, it is still a work of fiction, and as science fiction it sucks donkey's ass.

    First off, let me enlighten you -- agent Smith was dead wrong when he said that "every living creature lives in an equilibrium with the surrounding ecosystem". "Buzz" -- wrong! Every living being on Earth is preoccupied with survival and will take advantage of any means possible in order not to die and procreate as many times as possible. The only reason there is equilibrium is because for every species out there, another species exists which takes advantage of it, and in many places you see life-death cycles. I witnessed it myself when I was working on far North of Russia: first year there were few lemmings around. Next year there were more lemmings around. Third year there were HORDES of lemmings around -- they were everywhere, you could hardly walk on tundra without stepping on them. However, with the increase of lemming population, there was a steady increase of predator birds who prey on lemmings as their primary food source. Then there was a massive epizootic (epidemic) among lemmings which wiped nearly half of them all, and the rest of lemming population was severely reduced by predators. Next year, there were hardly any lemmings, and tons of predators, who failed to procreate since they couldn't feed their young, and the cycle started again.

    So, you see -- every living creature will procreate given a chance. You don't seriously think that some lemming conciously tries to "live in equilibrium" with the rest of the ecosystem? Do you think he sits in his hole in the ground and thinks "well, hell, there just are too many of us around -- I think I'll jerk off for the rest of the summer for the good of the ecosystem"? Right.

    The human population has always been regulated using the same approach -- epidemics, wars, famines, but with the advent of technology things have changed. We have been able to choke off most epidemics by using vaccination and by washing hands; we are able to feed ourselves mostly (famines are now reduced to non-Western countries). This allowed us to procreate like crazy, but the regulatory measures of Nature will catch up with us some time in the future. We only need a couple of years of bad crops to re-introduce famine back into the Western world, or a non-curable mutated virus a-la plague or aids, but which would spread by air, to wipe out half the population.

    So, you see, that is why we need to introduce such things as birth control, and the sooner the better. Having more than two children should be discouraged and having just one child should be rewarded (not the other way around). Not having many children surely beats seeing them starve and die of hunger, if you ask me.

    About the "here and now" -- that's bullcrap. Truly great way to introduce stagnation and degeneration. Humankind just needs to learn how to achieve technological progress without undermining the well-being of our species, but I truly doubt that this will be possible without a harsh worldwide survival lesson caused by overpopulation. Until then, I'm afraid we won't do a thing.

    I know, I know -- mod me down for being off-topic and feeding the trolls, but I'm just sick and tired of people throwing up their arms and moaning about "raping the planet". Every species does this, not just us. The only difference is that we have brains and should use them to see how this will come around and kick us in the arse before too long.

  • Biological Samples (Score:3)

    by zaius ( 147422 ) <jeff@zaius.dyndns . o rg> on Sunday April 22, 2001 @11:08AM (#274001)
    The vision that comes to mind is Michael Jackson's head in a glass jar.

    No, no, michael. The purpose is to preserver biological samples, not plastic. They'll have plenty of that in the future.

  • The main problem with cryogenics is that in order to prevent having ice crystals form and destroy the organ (think "freezer burn") each one has to be frozen at a specific rate under specific conditions. This is fine for freezing a heart for transport, but freeze a whole human and you basicly pulp most of their internal organs.
  • Firstly, offtopic. The purpose of the ark is not to save some legacy that we've produced, but to further civilization by studying ourselves and our world.

    Secondly, troll. I almost have to suspect that there is an anti-technologist or two that have targetted /. specifically. There is absolutely no reason for a resolute anti-technologist to participate in /. if not specifically to upset the apple cart. Using /. to *educate* people about anti-technology approaches is ironic. And pretty much brain-dead stupid.

    Thirdly, flamebait. There is no purpose to addressing western civilization with an anti-civilization rant, specifically the way you did it, if not to raise ire.

    Fourthly, overrated. If this were not a Sunday I doubt there would be anything but insightful, informative posts modded up to five. If this were honest moderation I would beg people to read a little more carefully, especially with regard to on-topic-ness.

    I have an honest response to you if you would deserve it, but I've already wasted my time enough...

  • Yes, I agree with you. In my opinion, those currently cryopreserved and those who are cryopreserved in the near future will be in a very precarious position until enough people are interested in the idea to support a robust business and social infrastructure. By my estimation, only about 1000 people have been signed up to be cryopreserved by any organization, so there's still a long way to go.

    That said, you have to start somewhere. And if it can be shown that those who are cryopreserved have a decent chance of good recovery, then I think offering cryonic suspension/recovery services will be a very lucrative business. After all, if it works, cryonics will vastly increase the one resource that's strictly limited for everyone, no matter how wealthy they are--time. How much would you pay for an extra 100 years of healthy life?

    With such large amounts of money involved, it seems to me that cryonics organizations will have a strong incentive to come up with mechanisms for ensuring successful (very) long term care and recovery of their patients.

    I saw a presentation by Stephen Valentine on the TimeShip idea. The $180 million price tag is the expected price for the final completed project. Although it is not mentioned in the article, the TimeShip is designed to be modular. Initially, the Timeship will be much smaller than its final dimensions--only the core services will be constructed (research facility, one storage module). As demand increases, more modules can be added until eventually it reaches its final dimensions.

    However, in my opinion, cryonics will remain a small, financially precarious community of true believers until it has been demonstrated to work. It's going to take a lot of research to demonstrate that it will work.

    Therefore, if you're interested in helping cryonics succeed (even if you're skeptical of the TimeShip project) here are some suggestions:

    • Learn more about the practice of cryonics. You can find links to most of the available online information from the Cryonet [cryonet.org] home page.
    • Donate money to the Life Extension Foundation (LEF) [lef.org], with the proviso that it be earmarked for cryonics research. Saul Kent is also the co-founder of the LEF.
    • Join Alcor [alcor.org] or the Cryonics Institute [cryonics.org] or the American Cryonics Society [jps.net]. All of these organizations are small, and a single activist can have a big influence. Help raise funds for scientific research.
    • Write a polite letter to the president [wisc.edu] of the Society for Cryobiology [wisc.edu], urging him to strike the blanket ban [wisc.edu], barring individuals who support cryonics from membership in the society. (See Section 2.04 from their bylaws.
  • Wrong. Cryonics does not require constant power. See the FAQ at http://www.cryonet.org
    BSCS in May 01
  • I think that many of our current problems stem from our currently limited time horizons. After all, why should you care about where that toxic waste ends up, or the destruction of the ozone layer, global warming, or rain forest destruction? You'll likely be long dead before any of these things has any appreciable negative affect on you. On the other hand, if you knew that you had a reasonable expectation that you would have to live with the consequences of your actions for say, a thousand years, it seems to me that you will likely be a better steward of the environment.

    As for the desire to live a really long time--doesn't it seem a bit of a waste that you will spend decades mastering your profession, then poof, you're gone, and all of the experience and knowledge you've painfully acquired goes with it? Also, I don't know about you, but I love learning and experiencing new things, and life's far too short to do even a small fraction of them.

  • See the FAQ at http://www.cryonet.org
    BSCS in May 01
  • The average cost varies widely since there's more than one way of freezing you. According to other articles I've seen on the subject, freezing your severed head (which contains your brain, so they can just clone a new body and stick it on with future technology) runs about $20-30k. Freezing your entire body, which takes up much more space and requires much more power, is usually around $150k. A high cost would be building your own cryogenics lab and then constructing a magnificent pyramid to house your body in, usually estimated at about $13.2 billion.
  • Several years ago--at least three--some scientists replaced the blood in a dog(?) with artificial blood and froze it for hours(?), and were able to successfully revive it.

    All the (?) because I can hardly remember the story. Does anyone recall? I believe I read it in Scientific American. Please enlighten us if anyone remembers this story, and what the real details are.

    My memory has always been like a seive...

  • Hmm. Finally, a halfway decent question. The anomaly is the $28k offered by the Cryonics Institute. They use morticians to do the cryopreservation. All other firms (really only 2 other active firms in the world) use teams of volunteers aided by paid emergency medical staff (usually). In truth, there are only 2 really active firms freezing people; one does it cheap, the other doesn't (they use more monoitoring equipment. If you want to freeze your head, it's 50K; most use an insurance policy to pay for it.
    BSCS in May 01
  • We've all gotten used to seeing Nixon's head in a jar, so it's gained some semblance of normalcy. [Futurama!!!] But Michael Jackson's head in a jar is just too frightening...

    In fact, it's easier to picture Michael Jackson's head between a young boy's legs. :-o

  • "The vision that comes to mind is Michael Jackson's head in a glass jar."

    That should allready be possible using the parts that came off in the last few years......

  • WRONG (Score:1)

    by YAZZO ( 444095 )

    Wouldn't the best way be to simply launch a transport equiped with an abundance of highly durable photoelectric cells into orbit around the sun? Simply be sure that it emits a radio signal. It could last for thousands of years if necessary, and would not be subject to the problems brought about by shifts in government or economic catastrophies.

    Or perhaps run off of interstellar hydrogen?

    Either way, what are they going to do with them when they recover the ship in the 24th century? There will be no currency or television, and the Enterprise might not be able to make it to even a space station for several months.

    Damn, I wonder if I could organize a mutiny against the bald-headed jerk in that amount of time?

  • The "Death Tax" is a good thing -- helps prevent to formation of an aristocracy. Wealth should be earned. Even Ayn Rand, the reviled capitalist philosopher, said so.

    I'm not sure what your remarks on capitalism vs the government subsidizing meat popsicles means. But I'm pretty sure that this sentence:

    we must make cryogenics a state supported medical service available to all - decided by lot, democratic selection, condition of health or some other scientific standard.

    ... is stupid.

    - - - - -
  • The Stone Age people of the Andaman islands are far more advanced spiritually and philosophically than we are, in our material lust for hamburgers.

    Snort. I'm sure that "spiritual advancement" keeps their bellies full.

    We are a virus, feeding of off those greater than we are

    Yeah... the meek shall inherit the Earth -- when we're done with it.

    - - - - -
  • Well, Anne Marie [slashdot.org] is probably the most skilled Slashdot troll. Over 100 replies to "her" last eight posts. The trolls are quiet elegant: start with a politically correct, heartfelt plea for AIDS research, animal rights, porn controls, etc, then veer into a sentence or two of outright insanity (e.g animals are people, porn grinds people into soup.)

    What self-respecting nerd can stop himself replying to this? "She" is just so right: the simple yet sophisticated name, the heart in the right place, the signs of some intelligence. Damn, this is a Madison Avenue quality character.

  • But Noah made the same mistake too much of human society makes today: the presumption that all living creatures are heterosexual and desire nothing but heterosexual sex.

    Noah, assuming he existed, didn't give a flying fuck what "kind of sex" animals "preferred," because his goal was not a floating fucking orgy, but survival of those species. Actually, even that probably wasn't his motivation so much as GOD saying "get the damn animals in the boat before I drown you, too, and make sure you get mating pairs." And regardless of what they "prefer," two males cannot produce offspring.

    It may have been Divine conscription, but there's no reason to violate individual autonomy like that.

    Shut up. Given that the Noah story has the Divine, All-Mighty Creator and Destroyer of Worlds telling Noah to gather two of each animal, I suppose you, as Anne "Noah" Marie, would tell him to get bent, because animals got rights, and like sticking things in their bungholes.

    Mo. Ron.

    Wirelesslaptop asked, "who's the bigger moron Ann Marie or the stupid moderators that moded this garbage up?".

    Hard to tell. Morons seem to run in packs.


    - - - - -
  • What about Leonardo DiCaprio's head in a jar? Good for launching ships. :)

    - - - - -
  • I was always under the impression that cryogenics wouldn't work because they had not found a way to freeze you quick enough? That the water inside your body would cause cellular damage. Does anyone know if they've actually found a solution for this, or do they figure that this is just one more little hurdle that science will overcome given a few more years (so you'll be thawed out in 2435 instead of 2400)?

    I guess the argument of people who try is is that you can't take it with you, and if it doesn't work it won't matter. If it does work, I guess the time you spent dead would only seem like a moment. Unless you believe in reincarnation in which case you've got some problems. One second you're an eagle flying over the grand canyon, the next you're Bernie the accountant from Hackensack. The other question is, what if the future really sucks?
    What if television continues its quality decline? And you wake up with the Execution Channel consistantly winning the children's programming ratings? Or what if you get defrosted, and the president (then called Emperor) of the United States is named Tom Green the Fourth? Who would want to live in such a place?
    But if I could choose when I want to be defrosted, that'd really be cool, because I would pick 9998. Then I could make a killing on all the Y10k projects going on.
  • Well, at least this might make spending a year dead for tax purposes feasible.

    Let's go, Mr. Desiato.

    --
  • You didn't really show why cryonics will fail, just how you think they will really foul up property laws and such.

    Incidently, there's a good book that relates to this, The Worthing Saga by Orson Scott Card. The powerful prolong their own lives by taking drugs to sleep for years between periods of normal life. The more powerful you are, the less often you are actually awake. Good read.
  • Ice crystals cause a lot of damage. That will be a bog obstacle for future scientists to overcome. Maybe they cannot overcome it. Who knows?
    When you cross a street and you see a bus bearing down on you, do you stop to calculate the odds of you successfully making it to the curb? If the odds are poor, do you just stand there and enjoy the time you have left?

    BSCS in May 01

  • The vision that comes to mind is Michael Jackson's head in a glass jar.

    Rather than a glass jar, wouldn't a bottle of beer be more appropriate?

    Oh, my mistake -- wrong Michael Jackson [beerhunter.com].

  • A friend once commented that although Volkswagen is based in Germany, their factory in China makes more of their cars. Why? Because the Chinese will work for less money. It's a wonder when Capitalism will collapse: The rich will only want to work for some high wage, their bosses will give the job to those who will do it for less. (nowadays, it applies more to nations as to humans)
  • The only 300-year-old company I can think of is the Hudson's Bay Company

    Lloyd's of London [lloydsoflondon.com] is another lovely old for-profit institution, 313 years old if this information is to be believed. From the history page on their website:

    • Lloyd's began in Edward Lloyd's Thames-side coffee house in Tower Street in the City of London.
    • Although the exact date of its establishment is unknown, evidence exists that Lloyd's coffee house was well-known in London business circles by 1688.
    • Lloyd himself was not involved in insurance but provided premises, reliable shipping news and a variety of services to enable his clientele of ships' captains, merchants and rich men to carry on their business of insuring ships and their cargoes.
    • The wealthy individuals in the coffee house would each take a share of a risk, signing their names one beneath the other on the policy together, with the amount they agreed to cover. For this reason they were known as 'underwriters'.
    • Lloyd died in 1713 but the coffee house continued to prosper as a centre for marine insurance.
    • By the end of the 18th century the underwriters had elected a committee and moved to their own premises in the Royal Exchange. Only members of Lloyd's were allowed to accept insurance business.
    • The Society of Lloyd's was incorporated by Lloyd's Act 1871 which provided the business with a sound legal basis and laid the foundations for today's market.
    • By the turn of the century the traditional club of marine underwriters had become an international market for insurance risks of almost every type. Lloyd's pre-eminence as a world centre for insurance had been established.
  • The ice-crystals created by freezing water within cells will cause more damage than can be expected to be repaired. After a certain point, its just unrepairable. Even with multiple miracles in nanotech and medicine, the best you can hope for is coming out with a 40 something IQ.
  • That brings up an interesting point, when you were unchilled would the government (you know if that show 2525 isn't correct) be obligated to refund estate taxes? And would they have to pay interest?
  • "These people will also set up bank trusts, etc. to preserve their interests as they lie dead and frozen."

    No, no, NO. You're not thinking like an American. Lawyers will set up lawsuits to raid the assets and interests of the dead, because dead people don't fight back. What law firm are you going to hire to safeguard your millions of dollars and give them back to you when you're alive again? Instead of finding a way to pocket all of it and leave you dead? The one with character? Hah!

    Throw dead meat in a sharkpool and watch the sharks. Now imagine they're lawyers.

    That's $180 million up for embezzlement right there.
  • *The Stone Age people of the Andaman islands are far more advanced spiritually and philosophically than we are, in our material lust for hamburgers.* They are far less advanced, and we are far greater than they. We have built, and designed systems for interacting with each other and our world beyond their wildest dreams. Western civilization isn't a virus. Western civilization is the most highly evolved civilization on the planet, and that is why it has destroyed or swallowed all other cultures it has encountered.

    15th century Europe set us on a course of greed and glory, advance and savagery. But we tried to change our world. We fought fate. We have saved billions of lives with our "empty philosophy". Western civilization gets the job done. It doesn't look pretty doing it, but when the chips are down the West triumphs.

  • The rich get around the "Death Tax". With enough money you can get around anything. No rich person ever got less rich via the Death Tax.

    Its the small business owner/farmer that gets screwed over by the tax.

    Too bad sonny, can't pay the tax? You will have to sell the farm.
  • You don't need to be that rich, the Cryonics Institue [cryonics.org] will freeze you, provided you've got a life insurance policy worth $30,000 which pays out to them. Thats affordable by anyone with a job.
  • There are many chances for animals to become "homosexual".

    Look into the mice studies where they put too many in a cage (on purpose... who'd clean that up) and the mice showed signs of homosexuality, domestic violence, and other problems which you see in inner city America.

    I think the study was cited in "The Lucifer Principle".

    Why not a slashdot for anthropology nerds?
  • Actually insofar as I'm aware the classic mice-under-population-pressure-strss didn't exhibit homosexuality. While they do demonstrate a number of behaviours, many pathological, homosexuality (as I recall) isn't one of them (& not a pathology.)

    Rather I'm referring to many well documented studies of animals in the wild or in domesticated situations but not under undue stress. There a percentage comperable to that in the human population perform engage in the same pair-bonding activities as their heterosexual counterparts of their species.

    In short two bulls or two cows or two cygnets pair up the same as a mixed-gender couple would with every indication of it being a part of the natural variation within their species.

  • look at it this way..

    Well----i can't do it like i wanted, Lameness filter.

    If you do it AND it works your alive
    If you do it AND it don't work your dead
    If you don't AND it works your dead
    If you don't AND it don't work your alive

    Now put that in a table.

  • Unfreeze them? hehe, just take their money, freeze them, then when nobody's looking, dump their body in the incinerator somewhere. Meanwhile, the company that gives this freezing service grows rich and gains political power. Hrm, starting to sound like a movie...


    ---
  • I always thought that show was prophetic.

    And now, a word from Matt Groening?s head in a jar . . .

    -Peter


  • The bank "Monte dei Paschi di Siena" was founded in 1472 (a little before Columbus "discovered" America), so it's 529 years old (!). It's still one of the largest banks in Italy, and claims to be the world's oldest bank.
  • Okay, not birds or bees, but some desert insects and other arthropods can survive being frozen. I've seen it first-hand when a chum of mine, who kept exotic pets, froze a scorpion for three months and revived it unharmed.
    I believe the mechanism involves a hexose sugar, which at low temperatures forms an inflexible polymer thus preserving cellular integrity.
    Transfering this to human beans might prove difficult, unless we can gengineer people that produce this sugar.
  • All brains (Human and other animals) are primarily made up of water. Water expands as you freeze it. Even the best control rate freezers cannot change the basic laws of the physics and chemistry which prevent the damage caused by freezing a brain. Storing the genetic material and/or "saving the code" to a database seems to be a more viable option for permanent preservation.
  • Easier yet, and usually more available is warm/hot water. Get a cup of coffee, let it cool down a bit and douse the tongue with it. It'll melt the ice layer and voila - no ripping.

    With that said, I too got my tongue stuck to a metal pole when I was 11. I just ripped it off, and it hurt. I wish I knew about the water trick then, but then again I probably wouldn't have used it -- oh, the embarrasment of calling up to my Mum "NNNNuuuuuNNNNN! Ny hounge isth shuck who netal whole!"
  • The rich get around the "Death Tax".

    They shouldn't be able to.

    - - - - -
  • I think it's in otherwise forgettable "The Artificial Kid" by Bruce Sterling that people who go into cryonics has to pay everything they own. So when they are revived, they are poor. If they want to be frozen again, they have to get rich again.

    Or something.
    __
  • Doh, you don't dump their body in an incinerator. You sell all of their organs first.
  • Yes. There's a book about cryonics and all kinds of other "science on the edge" called "Great Mambo Chicken and the Transhuman Condition" by Ed Regis, which is a great read. It stops just short of making fun of them all, but there's a lot of anecdotes about some pretty... special people in it. Read it, it's fun.

    *Looking it up*. Hmm, actually the dog wasn't frozen, it was cooled to just a bit above freezing. All its blood was replace by a blood substitute, then it was held at 34F for about half an hour. Then he was warmed up, his blood replaced again, and he was fine. This was done at Berkeley University.

    But on the previous page there is a story about a cat brain, which was frozen, in Japan. Its blood was replaced by glycerin, it was kept frozen for six months, then it was warmed and its blood was replaced again. There were brain waves, that looked very similar to normal cat brain waves.

    Since it seems you were confusing the two, you probably read the book :)

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