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Trident Micro Update 81

Posted by michael from the retrograde-advance dept.
grendelkhan writes: "According to Linux Today, Trident is denying that they are no longer supporting open source developers for XFree86." This message from Eich clarifies the events leading up to this. Looks like Trident chips will continue to be supported, one way or another.
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Trident Micro Update More

Trident Micro Update

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  • ...otherwise linux on notebooks would suffer...
  • I don't think the email really answers the question. It sounds to me kind of like it's still in negotiation.
  • I just don't understand how you can have OpenSource but be forced to sign an NDA for technical data. How are you supposed to legally distribute source code that contains information covered by an NDA? After reading the responses to the article it seems this is not over yet.
    • Because it's very difficult to work out the details of a hardware interface from the source
      code so (with this exception clause) it doesn't count as disclosure.
    • ...just twisted.

      You can release the source- and in many situations, you can fix it, so long as the bugs aren't with the interactions with the device. In that case, you need to enter into an NDA with the company to get the data. So long as they're willing to allow people to be involved as they show interest, then there's little problem- otherwise you end up with the joke that NVidia pulled with the Utah-GLX driver support.

      It's doable, just nowhere near as useful as releasing everything to let anybody work on it.
      • You're right, and it's definitely good that it seems to be possible with many companies. I still think that any programmer with half a brain can figure out how a piece of hardware works from some decently commented source code. Not to mention the fact that this practice really isn't going to keep the information out of a competitor's hands anyway ;)
      • otherwise you end up with the joke that NVidia pulled with the Utah-GLX driver support.

        What "joke"? I am curious.
        • It only sort-of worked, didn't have DMA support, and needed their documentation (which they weren't giving out) to fix things right. This is not the same driver that they're shipping right now, but was their "open source" driver they gave to us prior to it. People are slowly fixing it as I write this, but it's taking 10 or more times more effort to get things there.

  • Oh I Feel Like an Ass (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Cylix ( 55374 ) on Friday August 31, 2001 @10:33AM (#2239236) Homepage Journal
    Well I went through the process of sending their customer relations department a nice letter.

    I calmly informed them if quality drivers for their products ceased to emerge in the marketplace that I would seek other alternatives.

    At the time I felt like an informed reader and now I feel like an ass.

    • Join the club... however, it's still being negotiated so I think every bit of support will help in the long run provided it is done in a professional manner.
      • I sent a similar e-mail and I think it was the right thing to do. I simply informed them that I use Linux as my desktop at home and at work and if neither an open source or binary driver was available for XFree86 then I couldn't consider purchasing a product using that video adapter. I also mentioned that the XFree86 developers do a fine job for free if they can support a card.

    • Me too. All because I read slashdot (and didn't have the time to research this Trident thing, but thought it was important all the same). I hope the slashdot writers take note of these comments. Or I might have to start limitting myself to their unverified propoganda. I remember back in the day when slashdot used to have good meaningful articles that didn't try to send thousands of geek emails after the man, everyday, but instead informed us of real news. At least there are a few other sites that still do this. Maybe slashdot will grow up. Probably not.
      • I'm not sure which day you're remembering, but it must have been in an alternate universe. Slashdot has always been this way.
        • Heh, your probably right, but I'd like to think they were a good news source at one time. It seems like they just throw out flame-starting material a lot more than they used to, since the VA takeover. I wonder if it is to get more readers or posts. Their numbers seem to have dropped as well over the last 6 months.
    • I think this is a good lesson for everyone, reminding us of the importance of checking the facts or delving further into the issue when a story is posted on Slashdot before sounding off on it. However, don't feel too bad about what you said. The official reply from Trident didn't address the XF86 developer's request to sign an NDA without the "source code exception clause." Until that is addressed, I don't think the issue has been fully resolved.
    • Pray tell, Why?

      If there was a sufficient community response, they MIGHT decide that the OSS users group is wide enough to lift whatever restrictions they have in place.

      I sent them a mail too, and I'm absolutely convinced I did the Right Thing(tm).
      • i, too, sent an email and i, too, don't feel stupid for doing so (heck, i even used capital letters and everything).

        my letter was largely about why hardware manufacturers should go to the rather minimal effort of helping open source developers, and i think it still applies: trident seems to have a problem with at least some aspect of publishing code derived from their documentation, and the letters we sent --i hope-- will help weight their opinion in favor of relaxing that restriction.
    • ...and now I feel like an ass.

      Don't. They haven't changed their policy, but the policy makes things very difficult for OSS drivers for the new chipset, which relies much more on the components that require the NDA.


      Now, if I'm misinterpreting things, then I feel like an ass.

    • Re:Oh I Feel Like an Ass (Score:3, Interesting)

      by rknop ( 240417 )

      Don't feel like an ass. If you politely and calmly worded it, it still applies.

      Trident may come out and say that they aren't refusing support to open-source software. But that's marketspeak if it is impossible for Open Source developers to get access to programming information without signing an NDA that prohibits source distribution. "We support open source software, but we won't give programming information to people who distribute source" is inherently contradictory.

      Believe their actions, not their words. So far, their actions are not favorable, if the reports of the XFree86 developer not being able to get information are correct. We'll see if they turn around. Your letter was almost certainly still appropriate.

      -Rob

    • Which is the entire purpose behind writing a NICE letter instead of a nasty flaming one. At least when you write a well supported polite, yet negative letter and your source of information turns out to not be completely accurate, you're able to say "oops, sorry my bad" and back off gracefully instead of REALLY looking like an idiot.

      Its in Trident's best interests to have linux based drivers available, even if they don't want to support them in any way. They have a product to protect and I can understand why they don't want to post the specs publicly, but they realize that in time, given enough effort, someone will eventually reverse engineer their products. The point is, by the time that happens, those products will be obsolete and newer versions will be available. As long as the specs are available under an NDA, the drivers can still be released and the driver source, while maybe revealing more information than a binary driver would, still keeps hidden much of the internal workings of the device, until such time its no longer that important.

      However, if Trident decided to completely turn their back on open source developers and suddenly a related OS were to gain a significant hold on the market, they'd be forced to play catch-up, but as long as they have drivers available, even unsupported by the company, they're on an even playing field, with no harm done.

      -Restil
      • I love the theory at the end. "If hell freezez over and a Linux virus installs itself on every PC in the world and makes people whiny open source zealots with no tolerance for anyone not serving their interests Trident will be fucked in the consumer market!" That's like waiting for Netscape to release a stable browser.

  • It doesn't appear to be over just yet (Score:4, Informative)

    by fobbman ( 131816 ) on Friday August 31, 2001 @10:37AM (#2239254) Homepage

    From Egbert's linked email:


    "Alan Hourihane has tried to obtain documentation for the latest Trident chipsest (CyberBladeXP and CyberBladeXPm) without success. He offered to sign an NDA with 'source code exception clause' a clause which allowed distribution of unobfuscated source developed with the help of documentation otherwise covered by the NDA.


    Trident appearantly didn't accept a 'source code exception clause'."


    Just being the casual observer that I am, I would question if it is in fact settled. Trident has yet to provide the documentation requested by the XFree86 group in the manner in which it has been received prior to this chipset. All Trident has provided is some PR spin about their "policy" not changing. This is often times done by companies to try and do some damage control.


    Until they provide the documentation needed they still need to be pressured.



    • The poster has given a dead on assessment of the current Trident situation. Trident will not give documentation to XFree86 under the conditions it has previously agreed to give the documentation. XFree86 cannot accept an NDA agreement that requires obfuscating source code, or receiving only a binary component for a feature supported by XFree86.

      Who cares that Trident SAYS they support the Linux community if they make it functionally impossible to produce code based on their "support"?

      If you want to have working Trident drivers for Linux, the Linux community will still have to apply its consumer pressure in order for XFree86 to be able to provide Trident drivers.
  • You mean now I can get a MicroSun Cyber Blade XP Workstation?

    Err, I think I misread the article. Never mind.

  • Getting someone else to ask (Score:4, Interesting)

    by hrieke ( 126185 ) on Friday August 31, 2001 @10:45AM (#2239292) Homepage
    I've said this in the last posting of the story, but it was at the bottom so I don't know how many people saw it:
    We should have IBM, Micron, or who ever else uses these chips in their laptops to ask Trident to release the documentation that is needed to develop a driver for FreeX.
    It's harder to ignore IBM than it is a single developer.

    • I am thoughly confused...Yes I realize it is Pi. Why in gods good name did you decide to do that? =)

      • It's probably because in a 'famous quote', someone once said:

        "Programming for X is like calculating pi in Roman numerals."

        ... which is exactly what he must've done to make that sig :-)

  • Not really clear... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by chill ( 34294 ) on Friday August 31, 2001 @10:48AM (#2239306) Journal
    If I read all of the above correctly...

    Trident's policy has been, and still is, to require an NDA. That NDA prohibits source code distribution of a driver based off information obtained under NDA. Apparantly, from the successful development of drivers for past Trident chipsets, this part wasn't enforced.

    Now, Trident seems to be enforcing that part -- by not providing information to XFree86 developers on the CyberBladeXP and CyberBladeXPm chipsets. The XFree86 developers wanted to amend the NDA to allow source distribution.

    Since there has been no change in the NDA, only in enforcement, Trident is claiming that they provide the same support as before. Technically, they do -- sign the NDA and provide binary-only drivers and they'll provide docs.

    So, if you support the idea of source code availability for video drivers, keep an eye on the graphics chipset used in your next potential laptop. If it is Trident, look elsewhere.
  • From what I read, you are required to sign an NDA to get the specs.

    If you write a driver, and then publish the source to that driver, are you not 'disclosing' the stuff you said you wouldn't?

    Either accept the terms of the NDA, or don't. It's Trident's call whether they want to allow you to release how to write drivers to their hardware to the general public or not.

    • Re:NDA (Score:1)

      by B1ood ( 89212 )
      It's Trident's call whether they want to allow you to release how to write drivers to their hardware to the general public or not.

      undeniably true. it is our call whether or not to buy a machine with trident hardware in it though. if you need open source drivers, and trident's policy restricts that, you simply don't buy trident.

  • Trident drivers suck under Windows (at least for OpenGL), frankly the XFree86 people are doing a better job on their own anyways.
  • Supporting Linux would be giving money, or developing the drivers themselves. They aren't even giving out the documentation. Very bad.

  • The Gist (Score:2, Interesting)

    by LWolenczak ( 10527 )
    The gist is that, the driver will only be able to be distribued in a binary form if they are required to sign the NDA. So, all the VP did was beat around the bush, and say that we will continue to support open source, but without saying it, he reaffirmed the position that you can get the docs, but you can't share the info, thus only a binary driver can be distributed.
  • I wonder if this has anything to do with the TVExpress Video Encoder that can comes as an optional (hardware?) addition to the chipset. According to this site:


    http://www.tridentmicro.com/videcomm/tridproduct s/ 3d_desktop/blade3d.htm


    The Encoder offers "MacroVision Version 7.01 Copy Protection support" If that's the case then most likely they can not have source code released that may allow someone to circumvent the protection scheme. If you know anything more about this please post.

    • It's straight up MacroVision like you'd find on a video tape from MPAA's member companies. So what if it means it's never turned on? It's only supposed to be turned on by a DVD player anyhow to prevent it from getting in the way of other non DVD uses of the composite/SVHS signal. Since we, as the general Linux using public, can't get DVD players "officially", I can't see why they'd be making that an issue- never mind the fact that purchasing a MacroVision scrubber is currently legit and undoes it anyway.

  • Ha! (Score:1)

    by vandan ( 151516 )
    I can see nVidia or ATI or Matrox wanting to keep their intellectual property / trade secrets / whatever to themselves, but Trident? Really? Trident?
    I'll keep that in mind whenever I buy cheap shit graphics cards for work; I'd never buy one for home either way...
  • They did change theri stance. when a request was placed, just like the others for the earlier chipsets was placed, was denied, it's because the rules were changed.

    The letter from trident is just corperate doublspeak designed for damage control. Until they say "oops sorry, we sacked that guy that denied you access" and give up the documents under the NDA like they used to it is still a changed policy.

  • From the email:

    2. Alan Hourihane has tried to obtain documentation for the latest
    Trident chipsest (CyberBladeXP and CyberBladeXPm) without success.
    He offered to sign an NDA with a 'source code exception clause'
    a clause which allowed distribution of unobfuscated source
    developed with the help of documentation otherwise covered by the
    NDA.
    Trident appearantly didn't accept a 'source code exception clause'.

    We therefore assumed that Trident Microsystems has modified its policy
    of providing technical documentation.

    If Trident says you can't distribute unobfuscated source code based on NDA-covered infromation and XFree86 says they won't accept an NDA with these terms, the roadblock remains. Trident can say they support OSS all they want and that nothing has changed, but it still makes it impossible for XF86 to use the information.

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