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Linksys Incorporates HomePlug Networking 231

Posted by Hemos from the cool-new-tech dept.
mattyohe writes "It seems that Linksys is one of the first to prepare release for their ethernet router that uses the HomePlug 1.0 spec. Linksys claims the Instant Powerline EtherFast Router performs well by using the OFDM (Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing) scheme. OFDM forms numerous signals into a single signal for transmission and then is used again to find and automatically adapt to the specific frequency combination that enables successful communication. This product currently uses 56 bit DES encryption and would be excellent for networking in the home enviroment. Never worry about not having enough rj-45 jacks at a lan party, bring some power strips!"
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Linksys Incorporates HomePlug Networking More

Linksys Incorporates HomePlug Networking

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  • Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing scheme? I thought they only talked about that sort of thing from prison...
  • And, why would that be? Well, the range is an entire whopping half of a mile! I wonder if this could be done on the entire neighborhood's power grid...

  • Power Surges (Score:2, Interesting)

    by AnimeFreak ( 223792 )
    What happens if you get a major power spike? What is in place to protect my HomePlug card on my computer?

    I don't exactly like the idea of feeding electricity into my computer like that.

    • Hey, good point. I should unplug my computer from the wall right now, never know when that "evil current" will just sidle its way into my PC...

      NO CARRIER
  • Gee.. what else can I plug into my home network now? :-) I wouldnt mind having my beer keg fridge tell me when it needs more beer in its internals.. but hell, if my refrigerator could tell me that I need some more bread over the 'net, then I'd be in geek heaven!

    Wonder what else I can put on my network? my laundry machines? now theres an idea! CyberLaundry! :-D

    Moderation Points: Insightful:+1 Funny:+20 Interesting:+5
  • Now lamp manufactures can make lamps with a cpu inside and we can give them a schedule for on and off.
  • Well, now that WEP [slashdot.org] is a little stronger, this is now the next way to eavesdrop on your neighbors.

    I know from experience with X10 that it isn't that difficult to turn on all of the lights in your neighbor's house down the street at 2 am. Now, with Networking Over Power you can scan their network.

    Or, if you like the people in your block, you can actually share bandwidth this way?

    • Pop-up ads (Score:2, Funny)

      by yerricde ( 125198 )

      I know from experience with X10

      You mean you actually clicked those pop-up ads [x10.com]?

      • Nope. I bought all my stuff a long time before they started that stuff.

        Interesting to note that my spending wiht them dropped to 0$US, which about corralates with the begining of that ad campaign..

      • X10 is actually a networking standard for home automation, not relating directly with the cybersquaters on X10.com. The people at X10.com used to sell that stuff (and even advertise on slashdot), but since then they've moved onto crappy cameras and mountains and mountains of SPAM (to go a long with side dish of popups, of course)

        There are other places online where you can buy home-automation without feeding the evil spam-spewing beast. I'm to lazy to look them up at the moment now, try google.
    • Share bandwidth - oh no another device for the cable company to bitch about. More ways to pirate bandwidth and share IPs, That damn NAT stuff.

      Also: Will people start plugging in their laptops to your outdoor outlets to see if they can get into your network? At least they can not just drive down the road with a laptop, airsnort and an external antenna.
    • there already ARE some ways to use the power outlet as a way to do surveillance. more details are available here: Nonintrusive Appliance Load Monitoring [georgehart.com].
    • > I know from experience with X10 that it isn't that difficult to turn on all of the lights in your neighbor's house down the street at 2 am. Now, with Networking Over Power you can scan their network.

      "Drive-by h4x0r1ng... without the drive-by!"

  • But does it run under alternative operating systems? And does it use up power? and is there a Homeplug-Ethernet bridge? What's the catch?
  • (1) I've been under the impression that Linksys usually follows other home networking companies like 3Com. It's good to see them taking the lead in introducing a new product.

    (2) I've always had good success with Linksys hubs, switches, and NIC's in the past; and I appreciate their low cost. I'm sure this will be a good product, too.

    Now for a question: I don't fully understand how the electrical grid outside my house works, but what is to prevent my next-door neighbor from buying one of these powergrid devices and "borrowing" my bandwidth?

    • WEP. that is if you turn it on
    • Now for a question: I don't fully understand how the electrical grid outside my house works, but what is to prevent my next-door neighbor from buying one of these powergrid devices and "borrowing" my bandwidth?

      This product currently uses 56 bit DES encryption and would be excellent for networking in the home enviroment

      That should answer your question.
  • At 14 Mbps it's definitely fast for most home networking. Much cheaper than rewiring your home, but when you think about you'll need one of these in each room that you're using the powerlines for ethernet. That could get a tad expensive if you do it in a majority of your rooms. If you're just connecting one room that is across the house then this would probably be a lot easier than wiring it the whole way.

    • Re:nice (Score:4, Informative)

      by bravehamster ( 44836 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @06:42PM (#2717303) Homepage Journal
      Nah, you wouldn't need one of these routers in each room. The router only goes at the point where your Power-line network needs to interface with another type of network (in this case, the rj-45 network that most dsl and cable modems use). For each computer you just need a power-line network card. Granted, I have no idea on the pricing for those or for the router, but this definitely will be easier than running cat5 all over creation. Probably works better than 802.11b, especially if you've got a lot of walls.

      --

  • This technology already exists. (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 17, 2001 @06:38PM (#2717284)
    It was created by an employee of Clare Micronics [mxasic.com] in his own spare time. The person who invented this technology is named Shun Ueda and is currently working for Clare Micronics on a work visa from Japan. Visit Clare Micronics' homepage at www.mxasic.com and maybe you'll be able to contact him via eMail. His technology makes every AC power connection in your house, all of which on the same grid, a viable network connection. Long distance is in mind... Mr Shun Ueda has been developing it in his free-time and is looking for someone to make the drivers. I told him to contact Mr. Brenner, but I think he may be busy at the moment and is working on something for the company in all his available hours.

  • 56-bit DES (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Cardhore ( 216574 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @06:39PM (#2717288) Homepage Journal
    Did they choose 56 bits because of export requirements?
    • I'd think that there would be a couple of reasons; security requirements and performance. My Mom and Sister don't know what DES is, never mind how to crack it. Also, while 56 bit is probably secure enough for home use, anything higher than that will be more CPU intensive. Keeping it at a minimum "bittage" will probably increase network performance with less or the same hardware, making it cheaper.

      • 56 bits is not secure enough for jack squat besides leading you into a false sense of security (there is a rule in crypto that says that low secuirity is actually worse than no secuirity). In 1993, it was estimated that it was possible to build a specialized DES-cracking computer for about $1 million (US), well within the reach of a large corperation or government-funded orginazation, which would take about three hours to go through the keys. Today, you could probably get some freinds and hook up a distributed.net/Seti@home-style network (cracking encryption by brute force is CPU dependent, not bandwidth or latency dependent, so you can do it over a dial-up connection) and crack the keys used in about the same time.

        • 56 bits is not secure enough for jack squat besides leading you into a false sense of security (there is a rule in crypto that says that low secuirity is actually worse than no secuirity).

          That is not true, low level encryption does introduce a significant barrier to the ambitions of a Hoover or Ashcroft intent on monitoring every communication.

          56 bit DES is known to be broken, the DES cracker can derrive a key from a known plaintext/ciphertext pair. The machine is not capable (by design) in its current form of breaking a random ciphertext pair.

          Despite its problems (read my other articles in the WEP thread), RC4 is a better cipher that allows a 128 bit key to be used with lower CPU overhead than DES. AES on the other hand requires slightly more CPU than the best DES implementations, this may change as people continue to tweak AES code.

          If people are not going to hire a competent cryptographer to write their protcol they are probably better off using DES than RC4 because it is much harder to screw up with a block cipher than with a stream cipher.

          Despite its flaws DES is better than no crypto at all. If someone wants to find out what is stored on my systems they can break down a door or window more easily than breaking a DES key. Security is about risk control, not risk elimination

    • Seems like AES [nist.gov] would have been a slam-dunk for ths. Or use WEP, or really anything but DES. Selling a product with 56-bit encryption in the 21st century shows a pretty extreme lack of cryptographic savvy

      This had to have been designed by somebody as a side-project, then was commercialized when "the higher-ups" heard of it. Really, why would you choose DES, unless you had the code already lying around, or something?

      -Mark

  • Question I can't find an answer to on their site (Score:4, Interesting)

    by luge ( 4808 ) <slashdotNO@SPAMtieguy.org> on Monday December 17, 2001 @06:43PM (#2717309) Homepage
    What happens on the PC side of the question? Like, do I have to buy a device that takes up a slot internally or is USB? Or can I just plug that device into a pre-existing ethernet slot? Obviously, some type of PC->poweroutlet adapter is necessary, but where are they? [Oh, and less importantly... can I run this through my surge protector?]
  • Well, this sounds all good, but what about some other practical issues? The first I can think of is now you have more noise in your power, the bane of any audiophile or DAW user. I have a tough enough time trying to keep my sound cabling away from my power lines as it is, will this product make the lines that much more noisy? The 60 cycles will still be there, but what frequency is the networking stuff on?
    Also, what the hell are power cleaners going to think of this? I don't think putting more stress on your components is going to help them any. Might be a good idea to keep the network off of the circuits with your audio gear, unless your computer is your audio gear...

    • Re:From an audio perspective.... (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Worried about leakage from noise on the power lines?

      Buy an always-on UPS. It will take the "unclean" power and re-create it for your stereo etc.

      Personally, I don't care that much :)

      • Buy an always-on UPS. It will take the "unclean" power and re-create it for your stereo etc.

        Tellyawhat: You show me any kind of high frequency getting past the 50/60Hz transformer in the audio power supply and/or the switchmode power supply secondary inductor (DC choke) and the filter caps sprinkled all over the PCB and I'll be surprised. Show the same noise appearing in the output of said audio device and I'll buy you an always-on UPS.

        The kind of noise you describe getting through is such utter bullshit. The DC power supplies in practically all electronic equipment are capable of filtering this crap out and the measures for A/V devices are double. Remember that in a linear power supply you have a huge laminated-core transformer that will absorb high frequency noise as eddy current losses. In switchers you have a high-frequency (usually 60kHz and up) oscillator and the chokes and filters on the output are designed to give you as-close-to-zero ripple as possible. And after that you have high frequency, low-ESR caps across every IC and tons of filtering on the audio inputs and outputs to keep things sane.

        Always-on UPSes are useful for really shitty lines and equipment which is sensitive to the fast switchover of traditional UPSes. It's once again proven that you can get superb advice from an AC.

    • Re:From an audio perspective.... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Jeffrey Baker ( 6191 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @07:12PM (#2717430)
      Aw, c'mon. Insightful? It's easy to build a highly regulated DC power supply from arbitrarily noisy AC power mains. High capacitance, quality power transformers, noise chokes, power entry modules: all these components on a modern power supply are there to filter out noise. In low-power components like DACs and preamplifiers, the regulated power rails should have a VERY high noise rejection from ~0 into the low MHz. IC regulation isn't practical in power amplifiers, but really impressive capacitors are practical and a good design will have power supply noise well below signal level or throughout the audible band.

      In other words, I wouldn't sweat it for audio uses. If it really bothers you, power your audio equipment through a real UPS with a lead-acid battery and inverter. That should brick-wall filter any noise from your mains.

      • You misunderstood (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Ungrounded Lightning ( 62228 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @08:27PM (#2717687) Journal
        Aw, c'mon. Insightful? It's easy to build a highly regulated DC power supply from arbitrarily noisy AC power mains.

        He's not talking about coupling through the power supply. He's talking about capacitive coupling.

        Yes, he has a valid concern. The power lines carry 60 HZ and a lot of harmonics of it - all low frequency stuff - plus switching noise - higher frequency stuff but more intermittent, except for commutator noise which (as you probably know from listening to AM while running an electric drill) is all over the map. Not to mention fluorescent and other arc lamps and switching power supplies - all over the ultrasonic-to-radio ranges.

        The higher the frequency the easier it couples - in direct proportion. Beyond the audio range it can still cause some trouble, but not as much.

        This technology is running in the tens of megabits over a noisy channel, so it will be running a goodly fraction of that in bandwidth. The question is mostly whether the LOW end is well above the audio and FM multiplex subcarrier range.

        Don't bet on that. The audio range is just as useful as an equivalent bandwidth above it, so unless the designers were trying to avoid hi-fi and telephone interference they probably used it.

        I have a few other concerns:

        How does it behave in the presence of interference from commutator-based motors (drills, vacuum cleaners, blenders, mixers, hedge trimmers, etc.), switching power supplies (computers, peripherals, compact fluorescents), and arc lamps (standard fluorescents, high-pressure vapor)?

        How does it behave in the presence of other similar devices in other houses attached to the same power transformer? (Like X10 it probably won't go THROUGH the transformer enough to notice.)?

        Will you need a coupling capacitor between the two sides (or in industrial situations, the three phases) of your feed to get the other half (two-thirds) of your outlets to work?

        Will the default configuration share your internet and intranet with your neighbors?

        On the other hand, can you feed a neighbor deliberately, to cut a deal to share a DSL or Cable drop?

  • Is it just me, or is this a useless product? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cmowire ( 254489 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @06:45PM (#2717318) Homepage
    Is it just me, or is this product useless?

    I mean, really. Your average non-savy user won't try to share a connection because they don't know it's possible. The Wireless product makers are cleaning up the partially-savy and geek markets. Hardcore geeks are wiring their houses with cat 5, etc.

    Remember the telephone-over-powerline products to give you extra extensions? People just purchased cordless phones instead. Nobody bothers having a ton of wired extensions. And the network-over-a-phoneline? Just about nobody uses that one, either.

    If people aren't wiring with the cables the designer intended (power on the power plug, telephone on the phone jack, network on the cat 5, cable on the coax, etc) they'll use wireless.
    • Is it just me, or is this product useless?

      I'm thinking the same thing but for different reasons.

      I'm getting ready to buy an Xbox. Great, broadband enabled. Uh oh, no RJ45 jack in the living room. Is ther some kind of AC plug/Ethernet converter so I can plug the xbox ethernet cable into the power outlet? And then convert it back to ethernet on the other end? I think I missed the boat and that's not what the linksys box does. However, what I'm describing seems much more useful. You basically have active converters on each end at the plug level. You're using the power wires as a transport. So it goes into the AC adapter by the Xbox and out of the AC adapter on the other end into my cisco. For fun you can even combine it with a glade plugin with a blood smell to get the full effect of Halo...

      • That would be the Power line bridge:

        http://www.linksys.com/products/plbridge.asp

        Linksys is way ahead of you! :)

        You're right, I immediately thought about things like the XBox or the Sonicblue audio receiver, and so forth.
      • You have a 2 story house. Now, you can go through the fun of running cat-5 throughout (which can be very entertaining given that the builders can do all kinds of FUN things in the floor joists, etc.) or you can use a wireless or powerline solution to bridge the two floors of your house. Wireless leaves you open to drive-by hackings. Powerline might be a good idea in this context. Another one that's a good idea would be my inlaw's property where they have a central phoneline and several buildings that have computers needing to get to the Internet. Wireless won't work because there's metal buildings all in the way- no clean line of sight pathways.
    • It's just you.

      I think the big use for this is in convergence products. IE, I should be able to plug in my amp to this and be able to play songs off my computer.

      Right now I have to run a cord. And it's annoying.

    • It's Just You (Score:3, Informative)

      by waldoj ( 8229 )
      This would be ideal for my girlfriend's family's house. They have GHz cordless phones in their home, so they can't use wireless. They have a huge, huge house (it's been expanded from the original, smaller house), so ethernet just isn't a viable option for them. Consequently, I've got 5 of their computers networked and sharing a 56k, but the other 3 still have to dial out. (Thus using up the line and preventing any of the other 7 computers from being connected.) This PowerLine Router will be ideal for their setup, and I'm quite pleased to see it becoming available.

      -Waldo Jaquith
      • Why wouldn't they be able to use wireless? 802.11b equipment generally gets along OK with 2.4 Gb cordless phones, as long as both devices are well-made and play nicely (letting you select between channels, etc).

        My AirPort gear (re-badged Lucent cards) behaves just fine with cordless phones. Worst case should be a little fiddling with channel selection for best results.
      • I agree. I'm looking at it for my parents house for exactly the same reasons; the house is big, it's got Ghz phones, it's too dense for wireless to work effectively.

        I'm also going to bet that the security concerns with wireless connectivity are not present with these powerline devices. Mind you, that doesn't preclude other security concerns that may be present.

        Speaking of which...

        Anyone have any clue as to potential security issues? How much of a power circuit "range" do these devices have? Does this mean that my breaker box is now a "hub"? Can other people in my power grid "see" me? What acts as a block for these; 3-phase to single-phase conversions, etc.?
        • Supposedly the main thing that kills any leakage is the transformer.

          But, as has been already pointed out here, it's not perfect. That's probably why there's 56 bit encryption -- just in case.

          And there's probably a cable-length limitation, too.

    • Re:Is it just me, or is this a useless product? (Score:5, Informative)

      by sherlocktk ( 260059 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @09:39PM (#2717957) Homepage
      There are lots of good uses for this.

      Every person keeps thinking of this is a stepbackward, I really do not think so. I think that this will be a replacement of the 802.11x because it will be a lot easier to hookup. The only point of 802.11 is so wiring is not to hard. People keep talking about interfearance, I am sure that 802.11 will have it also, I mean look at a cellphone, thoes damn things never work right, and I would suspect that much higher speeds will be acheived.

      The real benifit here is it will be about as easy as plugging in a CAT5 cable into the wall.

      1. There is also an ethernet bridget that one can buy to add there existing infastructure.

      2. In an apartment where you cannot run CAT5 without loosing your security deposite.

      3. Places where it is not possible to run CAT5 without replacing drywall and flooring.

      4. After a while, it will probably be cheaper that 802.11x

      5. It is great for geeks to setup networks at friends houses without having to run cable and drill holes everywhere. I cannot even count how many houses I have had to network.

      If you would look at linksys's main page you would see an ethernet powerline bridge. I think there is a lot of potential here, and I plan on getting a set of what I need.
      • True...

        But

        1. Wired phones are cheaper than cordless phones but people buy cordless phones anyways.
        2. A power plug is still a plug. Even though there's a power plug riight next to my chair in the living room, I will only plug in when the batteries on my laptop are low.

        So therefore, I feel that the big usage for this is digital convergence -- the computer on your fridge to keep track of what you need to get from the store, the computer in your thermostat to let you set the temperature from anywhere, etc.

        Most of them are large items that rarely change, especially if you are in an apartment.

        Plus, these things are not here yet and probably won't be here for another few years. In the near term, people are only networking computers.

        Plus, the digital convergence future will probably require a 802.11x like system anyways, because your MP3 player/computer in your car will hook up to your home network, you will be carying handheld/tablet computers around your house, etc. All of which will probably make you want to get 802.11x anyways.

  • Latency? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by iconian ( 222724 ) <layertwothree@g m a i l . com> on Monday December 17, 2001 @06:46PM (#2717320) Journal
    From Linksys's page (http://www.linksys.com/edu/part6.asp):

    "Q. Will there be problems if I turn on or plug in devices like a power drill or hair dryer?
    A. No. If the powerline characteristics change during a session, the Instant PowerLine products will sense the change and automatically adapt to provide the most reliable data path connection."

    Will this "automatic adaption" interrupt data transmission? How would this affect latency?

    Imagine people complaining about getting fragged by a hair dryer.

    • Re:Latency? (Score:2, Informative)

      by tjb ( 226873 )
      I'm guessing that this adaptation is similar to bit-swapping that is done in DMT ADSL.

      Essentially (and this is pure speculation), the frequency spectrum will be divided into a number of frequency bins of a fixed width (in DMT, its 4.3125 KHz). Then, during training, a certain number of bits will be allocated to each frequency bin, depending on the Signal-to-Noise ratio of that bin. Later, if the line conditions change, the two sides will negotiate a reallocation of bits away from any frequencies that have been trashed. In DMT, these bits have to be re-allocated to another bin, but in this case, since the line conditions are likely change rather drastically when you plug in a 1500 Watt hair-dryer with an oscillating electric motor, I'm guessing that they would simply remove the bits entirely, alter the framing, and add the bits back in when conditions improve.

      But that's just a guess :)

      Tim

  • Home networking at this level? No thanks. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Junks Jerzey ( 54586 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @06:51PM (#2717339)
    Between this story and the one about setting up a dedicated server room at home, I'm thinking of tossing my PC completely and buying a used Atari 800. Well, not seriously, but it crosses my mind occasionally.

    The amount of system administration required to run a PC home takes much of the fun out of computing for me. I'm a programmer and a technical kind of guy, but I really don't want to to be a sysadmin as a hobby. It's bad enough chasing down video card drivers and keeping track of all the related software incompatibilities--and having to upgrade everything every 18 months or so, even when I don't need it, as a brute force method of reducing conflicts--but having to deal with running servers and such at home is crazy. Sure, sure, the people who love recompiling kernels and running video card benchmarks and so on might not mind, but that's what those people _want_ out of a computer. Not everyone is like that.

    • Re:Home networking at this level? No thanks. (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Then why don't you go read zdnet, or perhaps MacWorld?
    • then choose not to. run a win2k server if you want (i cant believe i recommended that). dont deal with it, you are not required to do all this. sometimes problems arise, so they need to be addressed, but mostly that isnt a problem, i run a lot of computers and most have no problems.

      if you want to deal with the sysadmin stuff, go for it, tweek everything out. otherwise dont bother, as it is NOT required.

    • My house LAN involves a 4 port router, with CAT 5 wiring layed under rugs. Its simple, and its fine for playing games over. I have to admit, I don't see the advantage of setting up a server for a house - very few files require sharing across the network, and NFS/SMB can handle those fine. Game servers run just fine on any of the machines involved in the game.

      It was suggested to me that instead of a router, I could buy an old computer and run Linux off it, stick a few network cards in and use that as a more flexible alternative. That's about the closest example I can think of a server that'd be useful on a home network.

      There is also a certain element of everything being over-complicated. I'm currently working on an SMTP server (as part of a different project), which should be idiot proof. In most cases, it will be possible to just compile & run. Some cases may require command line options, but nothing like the complexity of configuration involved with Sendmail. No, it won't be as powerful, but that's not the point - with less complexity, comes less to go wrong.

      Maybe now is the time to stop adding features, and make things work!

      • very few files? how about my 1500 mp3 files? I've been ripping my cd's for a month now. I have an audiotron in the front room, a home-made mp3 player in the bedroom(made from a websurfer pro) plus my daughters pc, my pc , the main Super-power pc in the office plus my webpad (toshiba t200cs pen tablet with a 802.11 card for websurfing everywhere on my property).

        I want to access my mp3's from all those devices, also my documents in my personal directory... It's nice to be able to access file X no matter where in your home you are.
        Plus, I need to run that Q3 server on something so I dont get accused of cheating.

        Oh, and It's not a 6Gig Athalon VXVVI with 22 terabytes of ram. It's a super slow 233 PII with 64 meg of ram. and 2 40gig hard drives.

        you dont need anything past a 233 P-II for a file server.. Oh and I dont touch it, I use a hardware firewall for both the wireless and cablemodem side. so fighting with iptables is not needed.

        sorry, a home server is no work at all and costs less than $300.00 ($400.00 if you have to have it rackmounted like me)
    • Y'know, it's not that hard. You can just buy a moderately high end ADSL or cable modem router, and once that's set up it's more or less plug and play.

      All the home powerline networking means is that the plug and play aspect is made even easier. Once the early adopters are dealt with, you can expect to find ADSL / cable routers that just plug into the power and to the cable - and that's it. Internet access to the whole house.

      Dave
    • Hey Junks!

      Thank you for giving us that insightful comment. I represent the other side of the fence.. I.E. Sure, sure, the people who love recompiling kernels and running video card benchmarks and so on might not mind

      Yup I'm one of "those ppl"

      From where i'm standing, this product along with the phone line networking products are for lack of a better word "GAY" The wireless stuff is cool if you don't mind the latency, but my main issue with any type of non ethernet network like this is that it's not ethernet.

      Consumers like choices sure, but I don't think this is the right one. It's really not that hard to string together a ethernet network. Nor is it expensive. A box of 1000' of non plenum cat5 costs 50 bucks now, 1 box can wire up most homes.

      We already have a good cheap way to network PC's why not stick with what everyone knows? I'd rather see the money thats spent on developing these goofball technologies put into reducing manufacturing costs so we can get gigabit ethernet for the price of 10/100 today. I know it's on the roadmap to eventually get that cheap, but when?
      • Ethernet doesn't work everywhere.

        3 Acre plot of land; 3-4 machines needing to be networked but with 500 foot separations and metal buildings in the way; power comes in via a central pole with no pole pigs between the house wireups.

        Yes, Ethernet would be faster, but for this one, you'd have to resort to shielded cable or step down to 10-base-2 (which is getting really hard to find). Even then, you'd end up with this really iffy setup at best.

        Expand your horizons at least a little bit- not everything is best served by wireline Ethernet networking.
    • This is one of the primary reasons I love Mac OS. I don't have to fight with it. There's no registry to become corrupt. No swiss-cheese web server turned on by default. No video drivers that aren't compatible with OS upgrades. Applications aren't deeply tied to each other and integrated into the operating system - in fact, parts of the operating system aren't even integrated into the operating system - so installing an app doesn't automatically overwrite a DLL file with an old version that isn't compatible with an existing app. My iMac is on its 16th month, and while I'm sure the January 7th announcements will have me drooling again, I won't feel a pressing need to upgrade for a long time to come.

      Unfortunately, most people can't see past the transparent plastic, and refuse to accept anything bearing the Apple logo as a legitimate tool.

      By the way, yes, I know Macs can have problems. In general the most complex issues can be resolved by a trained monkey in under two hours, and faster with an experienced human. Note that using untrained monkeys is not recommended.
      • No video drivers that aren't compatible with OS upgrades.

        This used to be true, back in the day before Macs had 3D accelerators in them, but no more. Macs have the same video card and drivers problems as the PC, just to a lesser extent.
        • This used to be true, back in the day before Macs had 3D accelerators in them, but no more. Macs have the same video card and drivers problems as the PC, just to a lesser extent.

          If you use the video card that came with your system, it'll be fully supported by Apple, and any OS upgrade will generally include good, working drivers. I've had no problems whatsoever with the ATi Rage 128 Pro in my iMac; I can't really speak from experience about other cards and configurations. If your experience differs from mine, perhaps you could share?

          (Yes I know mine's not actually a card, it's on-board.)
  • About a decade ago, there were a set of articles in Radio-Electronics magazine (now, I believe, integrated with Popular Electronics--correct me if I'm wrong) that featured a build-it-yourself power line modem, working from the serial port as a standard modem with a maximum rate of 9600 baud.

    One of the more interesting things in the article, if I remember correctly, is one of the issues brought up in this one, that is, data being 'transmitted' into a neighbour's home. The article mentioned that a capacitor with a large enough working voltage, placed across the incoming power lines to the house, would allow the signal to be transmitted beyond the basement breaker box. In other words, without the capacitor, there was no signal 'leakage'.

    Please don't go trying this at home, though--I'm not going to be held responsible for crispy geeks who tasted too much 120V AC. :-)
  • Here is another big security hole to examine...hehehehehe... ;)

    Sorry.... just couldn't resist..
  • sure they come out with this after i buy into 802.11.... *sigh*
    i wonder though how will noise affect this setup? what about lightning? can the unit be plugged into an surge protector or an ups? or does it need a direct connection to the home's power line? inquireing minds want to know...
  • I wonder if there is any way to use this technology to make a WAN over the power lines. Imagine playing x video game with someone down the street at 14Mbit/s free.
  • It would seem to me this whole concept is a bit of a kludgy way to handle home networking. You would still need a proper NIC for each machine on this network, so what does it really buy you? 100Mbit Hubs (and even switches now) don't cost much more than powerstrips (in fact hubs are downright cheap) and are not very complex. . . not to mention some CAT5 and a small hub is easier to pack than a bunch of power cables and a fat powerstrip for those LAN parties.

    This technology is NOT a step forwards, it just supposedly makes things easier - but I would argue that the hardware portion of setting up a home network (i.e. Plugging CAT5 cables into a hub or switch from each computer)is much easier for newbies than the software/OS/IP networking setup.
    • You would still need a proper NIC for each machine on this network, so what does it really buy you?

      It buys you not having to string cat5 through the walls to every appliance you want to automate and every room where you, the wife, or the kid has a computer or appliance you want on the LAN.

      I've strung a house with RS-232, another with Cheapernet, and am building one with Cat5 preinstalled. But after wiring the kitchen in my current house I've decided that stringing Cat5 where I want it is too much work and too hazardous for my creeky old body. And I'm a strongly motivated network nerd. So what's it like for Joe Accountant?
  • I hope it's more reliable than the wireless AP's that practically every feature on the advanced page is broken.

  • Enermax are going to have a field day. (Score:4, Funny)

    by WasterDave ( 20047 ) <davep.zedkep@com> on Monday December 17, 2001 @07:08PM (#2717411)
    Seriously. A PSU with built in networking... plugs into the USB headers on the motherboard.

    Too sensible, it'll never happen.

    Dave

  • Share bandwidth... (Score:3, Funny)

    by rbgaynor ( 537968 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @07:15PM (#2717444)
    ... with your neighbors. How long before my cable company re-writes their terms and conditions to prohibit me from connecting any device to the cable modem that also that connects to an electrical outlet ;)

  • Compatiblity with power conditioning devices? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ryu2 ( 89645 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @07:17PM (#2717453) Homepage Journal
    Aren't they basically low pass filters for power? Will the networking signals survive going through them?
    • Aren't [power conditioning devices] basically low pass filters for power? Will the networking signals survive going through them?

      Depends on the device.

      Surge-protectors won't touch it.

      EMI filters will completely block it.

      UPSes will probably block it, even in bypass mode. (They need EMI filters on their wiring due to the switching stuff inside.)

  • Price Comparison? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Bilbo ( 7015 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @07:24PM (#2717489) Homepage
    OK... I didn't see any mention of price in my quick scan of the announcement. Does anyone know how this will compare with other Linksys wireless setups? Initial investment for the hub? Incremental cost for connections?

    I'd like to use this to network a small school I've been supporting. We've put a lot of work into running 10baseT cables, but haven't found a solution for getting to the other building. Wireless would be nice, but even that is still out of the budget for now. (We're talking really small school here!)

  • Is that they are always too expensive for the devices which could really be useful if connected, and too slow for real networking.

    The nework fridge, lamps, other devices have a $5 ceiling on parts cost, and any reasonable Powerline network system generally costs a lot more than that. The OFDM based system mentioned is probably in the cable modem price range.

    Doesn't mention the chipset in the release. Does anyone know if there (finally) is a consensus standard on this???
  • i've been seeing people claiming to have had data over mains working for years now. Its heartening to finally see it on the market. But with wireless becoming ubiquitous is it really worth it now?
  • If anyone remembers the Radio Shack device that "turned your household wiring into an antenna", that's what I imagine for this technology. A smallish box with a pass-thru 3 prong AC plug, and an RJ45 on the bottom.

    Plug the coverter into the wall outlet, and plug your laptop, PC, or TiVO into the RJ45 on the media converter. Really not a bad idea, with the right security. I'd certainly get it.

  • Home Only Im sure (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Magus311X ( 5823 ) on Monday December 17, 2001 @07:45PM (#2717548)
    Im sure no business would ever even consider this. Think of the security implications.

    You don't even need to find an open rj-45 jack on the raceway. Just an electrical outlet. Aren't those every 6 feet?

    You could get on the network from an obscure maintenance room hidden from view...
  • If the equipment makers get on this bandwagon, it could get interesting.

    Plug the equipment into the AC wall jack and poof your on the network.

    Plug the game console into the wall. Poof.

    Plug the MP3 component player into the wall. Poof.

    Eventually all of our household equipment starts scanning, detecting and "inter-operating" with each other.

    Next thing we know, everytime the mp3 player coredumps the washing machine floods the house.

    Hmmmmm. On second thought...

  • Phoneline Networking... (Score:2, Informative)

    by dytin ( 517293 )
    Seriously, if you want to network your house using the existing wires in your house, pnoneline networking is the way to go. It is fast - right now it has a limit of 10 mbps, but they are working on 100 mbps - the power line gets 14mbps, not too much faster (and anyway, unless you have a T1, 10mbps is plenty fast). Also, it is secure, there is no need to encrypt your data as it travels on your own private network. Also, there is no risk of power spikes damaging your hardware. And finally (and most importantly I might add), there are Linux drivers for phonline NICs (at least for the card I use, the Linksys HPN200, you can find the drivers here [linksys.com].)

    For more more information go to www.homepna.org [homepna.org]
  • I have, at various times, considered getting a high-speed network connection for the grilfiend. I had two problems: first, good DSL service in her area is unavailable (distance from the CO coupled with going across the 'Hooch). So that left cable, but the single cable outlet in the apartment is diametrically across the living room (well, no, it's not a circle, but you know what I mean) from the computer.

    And, of course, it being her apartment and not mine, running cat5 across the room is not an option. So I thought wireless, but I'm not willing to throw an extra $300 at the problem (yet.)

    This, on the other hand, might be a solution. So my big question is: How much? When you figure that Linksys's WAP + routerator is a little less than $200 at the local Best Buy, and I can get a PCI or USB wireless card for the PC end for $100, can IP-over-110vAC really be much cheaper?

    -JDF
  • Power line networking has been available for years, but it's been slow, flakey, or vaporware. Linksys ships stuff in volume, and it's generally at least OK.

    Power line networking, of course, presents a huge security hole, but 802.11b is worse.

  • So, will this technology have any problems with devices communicating between each other if the two devices are on opposing "legs" of the split 220V line?

    I.e. the line comes into your house as 220V, and is split into two 110V legs before being distributed throughout the home. Device #1 is in a circuit powered off the first 110V leg, and device #2 is on a circuit powered off the second 110V leg. Can the two devices communicate?

    This is often a problem with simple X10 devices, and can require the installation of a "bridge" device to allow X10 signals to pass between the two 110V legs. Seems like powerline networking would suffer from the same problem...
  • Now you can steal electricity and internet access from your neighbor at the same time when you sneak that extension cord into their outdoor outlet!

    Or alternatively, the FBI can install a data tap by plugging in.
  • remember this is for old houses. anyone building a new home can have it pre-wired with cat 5 for peanuts and will get a better product overall.

    Basically, anyone building a new house is pretty much clueless if they dont run 1-2 cat5e or cat6 cables to every room. It costs nothing in comparison to the price of the house and eliminates future problems.
    • Basically, anyone building a new house is pretty much clueless if they dont run 1-2 cat5e or cat6 cables to every room. It costs nothing in comparison to the price of the house and eliminates future problems.

      While this is true I find myself recommending that people pipe as well. On a single or two level house this is very easy and provides incredible flexibility. (ie You've got one RG-59 to your TV but decide you want DirectTV as well so you simply run the RG-6 through the basement and then up the conduit into the wall) This way the homeowner can run *anything* they want in the future and keep it in the walls.

      Again, it does cost more, but you're not limited in capacity or medium in the future. But you're right, a few strands of CAT5 at the minimum.

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