Wired Talks Wine 238
matroid writes "Wired reports that the upcoming WINE version 1.0 may be just what Linux needs to get users to migrate from Windows to Linux."
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Wired Talks Wine
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"It's a dog-eat-dog world out there, and I'm wearing Milkbone underware." -- Norm, from _Cheers_
Lindows improvement? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Lindows improvement? (Score:2)
Re:Lindows improvement? (Score:2)
Are your films good?
Donate to WINE (Score:2, Interesting)
Donate to TransGaming (Score:2)
I went to find how to contribute to WINE
You can help contribute to the development of WINE's media layer by buying a TransGaming [transgaming.com] subscription for $60 per year.
Wine Mainstream (Score:4, Insightful)
#include
Re:Wine Mainstream (Score:2, Interesting)
Why pay $99 for a package that you can get for free? Especially when Red Carpet will install Wine seamlessly and painlessly, with just three clicks.
Myself, I'm in the process of moving from a Linux-only system to a dual-boot Linux/Windows system, only because there are a few apps I still can't get to work in VMWare. (Specifically, I have no way of installing software on my Palm, and anything multimedia works poorly if at all.) If Wine can get these to work, and possibly IE and Word, for the few times when Opera and OpenOffice don't quite do the trick, I'm all for it.
Wine has (or potentially will have) all the advantages of Lindows, with none of the disadvantages. I'd rather just spend the $99 on another monitor so I can have a setup like Jon from ThinkGeek's happy family [thinkgeek.com].
Multimedia support is not linux's weakness (Score:2, Insightful)
"...anything multimedia works poorly if at all."
I definitely have to disagree to this broad statement. Recently I've found myself rebooting into Linux just to play movies. Mplayer [mplayerhq.hu] is the video player I've used any operating system.
The following quotes a developer on it's major strengths -- speed, synchronization, and support (It's accompanying dozens of codecs & builtin format support doesn't hurt either):Re:Wine Mainstream (Score:1)
As a result, I haven't had to boot into windows in over a week, and I'm not deprived of my CounterStrike!
Re:Wine Mainstream (Score:5, Insightful)
And for that matter, people could actually more fairly compare their linux equivilants. For now, it's true that MS Office currently lacks a full-fledged competitor. OpenOffice looks like it will become exactly that, but it'll be a little while yet in coming, and a transition period will be necessary. Halflife you've got me on too. However, the others you mentioned?
IE? Galeon. It's fast, stable, can use Netscape/Mozilla plugins, and a GREAT Gnome interface. (or Konq, for the KDE people
Outlook? Try Evolution. Like Outlook, but without the viruses, and features 35% less Suck(TM)!
And ICQ? GnomeICU, Gaim, Gabber... need I list more?
I really think that with the advent of StarOffice 6.0, Mozilla 1.0, and Ximian Connector, combined with a great, well-refined WINE, we may finally see the beginnings of the Year of Linux on the Desktop(TM)
Re:Wine Mainstream..If you can't beat it...beat it (Score:3, Insightful)
while i seriously hope you are right, it isn't merely a question of "equaling" the features of MS Office or of the Windows Desktop (Bleech!), or bringing native Win32 code over to the LINUX platform (look at the history of Win emulators on the Mac), even if WINE is perfect, thunking is not free, performance wise, and Bill's Thing will be shipping on MILLIONS of new PCs every month for the foreseeable future
we in the community have to offer a significantly better user experience, with LINUX native apps
we come in strong on price, free support and passion
we come in weak on marketing, abilty to tie our LINUX products to a "Big Name" tech provider (like AOL) and we have no ability to make the OEM Mafia (Dell, Compaq, Gateway, HP, Sony, et al) dual boot enable any large portion of their new machines
also, "The Curse of *NIX", which i have been dealing in my work since before the widespread release of SRV, continues to haunt us....especially in the area of idiot proof desktop setup and functionality
X continues to be less than perfect and hard to get going really smoothly without SOME user experience and intervention
...and although I have great hopes that in the mid-term plus (18-36 months) the battle/conflict/thing between Gnome and KDE will result in KILLER desktop functionality, in the short term, the desktop setup continues to be a real weakness in selling LINUX to anyone not comfortable with at least a little diddling, twiddling and fiddling with their OS setup (and that is a LOT of people)
Re:Wine Mainstream..Smaller is Better?? (Score:2)
"When more and more people in non-Western countries find that the latest version of Windows and Office is too expensive, an appropriately packaged version of linux (or the BSDs) will become more attractive."
=TRUE, IFF the shrink wrap packaged version gives them 1. the same or better functionality as that month's version of MS OFFICE and 2. That packaged version installs as or more easily(?) than that month's version of Windows. Otherwise, they'll keep cracking and copying MS products, it's not as though these countries will have any truly effective IP policing in the next 20 years, they're too poor and have other priorities, regardless of how much the US, EU, WTO, IMF, WB whine about it
"...could be an opportunity for distributed and free
=TRUE, IFF the major content providers and software vendors don't use their clout to embrace and extend the DMCA to those "types or categories" of services AND some altruists are willing to set up the server farms that could serve and type of medium-high demand that such free services could generate. You should read the IP related sections of the
"3. Future developments in the PDA and handheld space: While Pocket PC is gaining now, linux could play a role here which may eventually affect what we mean by "the desktop".
right on...when you get past the number one social use for the Net (low cost pr()n distribution), most Net users today AREN'T Geeks, they really need/want wireless web browsing, organizer software, wireless email and some voice and other audio capacity (MP3 player, voice recorder, alarm clock), my color Prism or iPAQ can do MOST of that now, and are just a LITTLE BIT slower and kludgier than i'd like...
MS' tools in the embedded space have become much better in the last year, but there are still gaps in their approach to embedded developer tools
specifically, their tools are basically centered on VSE (a great development environment for "full sized" apps), and this makes them a little bloated in the embedded space and there are still some pieces missing (CE is still a little too big for most ultra light weight applications, and limited on processor type support)
LINUX could score BIG here if they someone can provide a superior development environment for the device space and a compact, stable device kernel across a wide variety of device processors
as i have continually said to my g'frnds, "Smaler is Better!"
Re:Wine Mainstream (Score:3)
>ICQ? GnomeICU, Gaim, Gabber... need I list more?
The problem with this line of thinking is that if it was so easy to ween people off of what they know and onto something "like IE" or "like Outlook" or "like ICQ", it would also be relatively easy to ween them off of Windows and onto something "like Windows, but better", doncha think?
People don't want "an office suite", they want OFFICE. They KNOW Office. Even if they don't necessarily LIKE Office, they know how to use it and don't want to learn something "like Office" unless it's EXACTLY "like Office".
-l
Re:Wine Mainstream (Score:2)
That's what they say, it's not how they act if even the slightest deterant is put up against MS Office while StarOffice is the easy pre-installed choice.
What they complain about is change and any hassles they might have to put up with. My experience matches what Lumpy said in this thread;
Re:Wine Mainstream (Score:2)
If I'm wrong, I'd really like to find out about it, but this is how I understand the story.
Funny thing, just before Corel sold off their Linux business, they got a big contribution (loan? stock purchase? I can't remember.) from MS.
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Re:Wine Mainstream (Score:2, Interesting)
Halflife you've got me on too.
Half-Life works very well [transgaming.com] on TransGaming's WineX, aside from some glitches with the starting menus (this problem has been fixed in TransGaming's internal builds, though, and will be incorporated into the upcoming WineX release). It's not perfect yet, but it rocks on my system. :)
Re:Wine Mainstream (Score:2)
I think Microsoft holds two different sets of users by the balls right now. One group is the office users, who all use Office and Outlook. The other group is home users, who do stuff like play games. Right now I think an Office or even Word "Winelet" would pull over more dual booters than CounterStrike or any other FPSs.
WINE will make Linux competitive (Score:1)
Isn't that exactly what WINE intends to provide?
Perhaps "competitive" is the wrong word -- the idea is to make it intercompatible. Of course, anything that has the same function as a Microsoft product is, by definition, competing with Microsoft!
As István Lebor said: "I also find it intriguing that Microsoft has a Linux Competitive Manager if they don't see Linux as competition."
Heh.
WINE necessary?? (Score:2, Interesting)
Nate Tobik
Re:WINE necessary?? (Score:1)
It's all about choices.
Re:WINE necessary?? (Score:3, Insightful)
You cannot win by following, only by leading.
Re:WINE necessary?? (Score:2)
The whole thing that keeps Windows in front of Linux is that barely anyone in the community can see past their nose. Success is not a matter of "Look, we can do it just as well," It is solely based on "We do more, and do it better." It is not enough to entice users of other OS's because they can use their favorite apps on either OS, but that the "killer app" they want to use is only available on the OS of substance.
In no way do I demean the valiant efforts of the contributors to the community, but to make the immediate goal one of breaking even instead of keeping the focus beyond the leader, it is impossible to gain the advantage. This is something I think the "evil empire" understands more than we do.
Re:WINE necessary?? (Score:2)
Re:WINE necessary?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Look at Mac OS X -- this UNIX-based OS, has built in a Mac OS 9 emulator, expresslly so people can run their old apps. Is it necessary for OS X itself to run? NO! But without such a emulator, Mac OS X would probably have not taken off as quicky as it is.
The situation is exactly the same with Wine and Windows, especially if one views Linux as an "upgrade" to Windows and wishes to target disgruntled Windows users.
So WINElib = Carbon? (Score:3, Interesting)
WINElib has the potential to do for Linux what Carbon did for OS X.
Carbon is an OS X native API that is based on the classic API. Additionally, Carbon was ported to OS 8 and OS 9. This meant that you could have been developing for Carbon the past few years and having OS X native applications that ran under Mac OS. For extra fun, they could have FAT binaries (I think that I'm using the term right, they had something like that) where they could include a Classic PPC binary, Classic 68K binary, and Carbon OS X binary all as one application.
WINElib is interesting, you can build against WINElib and compile for Windows and Linux, supporting both platforms with native applications. The trick is a strategy that lets you target both OSes for now, it lets you keep your Windows market and expand into the Linux market as it matures.
Personally, I think that Apple should work on getting WINElib to be Aquafied. Then you could build targetting WINElib for Windows/OS X, and Linux or other UNIXes. Obviously you'd hate to make Win32 the standard API, but Apple dropped it when they dropped OpenSTEP for Win32, so oh well.
Alex
Re:So WINElib = Carbon? (Score:2)
um... huh?
Re:WINE necessary?? (Score:3, Interesting)
One reason: Lotus Notes. Granted, there are also open source alternatives out there (such as for instance Tutos [tutos.org]), but that doesn't help you much if you are an employee at a company which uses Notes. Wine allows you to run Linux on your workstation while still being able to access the corporate document and discussion databases.
Of course, it is in IBM's power to show their true commitment to Linux by making this point moot with a native Linux Notes client, but for some weird reason they don't want to, despite their Linux commitment in many other areas [linas.org]...
Re:WINE necessary?? (Score:2)
Being a small contributor... (Score:2)
V1.0 gives a nice feeling of culmination to the project (granted, I know they won't stop). Good software always gets past V1, but it's an important milestone!
(sorry, could not contain my enthusiasm for WINE. If necessary, moderate me to -1 never to be seen again.)
Codeweavers... (Score:1)
That's great and all, but... (Score:1)
Re:That's great and all, but... (Score:2)
Re:That's great and all, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
Not _ALL_ Linux programs have to be just like the Windows ones, nor do KDE/GNOME/[insert favorite X Window manager] have to be like Windows. But if there were say, some popular Linux-native office apps that not only were of good quality (and very compatible with the files generated by MS Word, Excel, etc.) but had an interface similar to MS Office*, there would no longer be the, "Well, but I've already gone to the trouble of learning MS Office!" excuse.
Remember, people take entire CLASSES to learn MS Office*. Neither they nor their bosses (who would have to pay them while they re-learn what they already know) would be happy if one day all their MS Office knowledge meant nothing, just because the Chief Technology Officer / IT department of the company they were working at decided to switch over to Linux.
*When I say "MS Office" I mean all the MS Office apps, such as Word, Excel, etc.
WINE? (Score:1, Offtopic)
*booooo* Lame joke.
Good quote at the end of the article (Score:5, Interesting)
-- from WINE contributor István Lebor
Please Buy Crossover Plugin. (Score:3, Interesting)
I have paid 20$ for CodeWeaver's Crossover plugins. And like he said Shockwave and Quicktime run very smoothly with Galeon + Mozilla 0.9.8. Without having any noticable load on the system resources.
So do your part go pay 20$ and get Crossover plugin. While enjoying all the Quicktime, Shockwave fun, you will be helping Codeweavers in not ending up like Loki.
I had mixed feelings about Transgaming, since they may not be helping in getting Linux game ports and so on. But with Loki gone I might support anything that will get good games on linux.
Its fine with Crossoevr plugins, since Apple was not going to do a Quiktime port for Linux anyway. And I think I read that Apple did support Codeweavers in getting Quicktime working with Wine.
Re:Please Buy Crossover Plugin. (Score:1)
My Solution (Score:2, Interesting)
Hey, I love Wine. It's a great product, and I think it's neat to run whatever I can directly in Linux using Wine.
However, I have to be realistic. One of my favourite games is Civ III, and since Infogrames isn't the most cooperative publisher in the world, I doubt a Linux version will arrive. And Wine doesn't run it well.
So, I'm stuck with my next system being one using both Wine and VMWare.
I think that's really the best anyone can hope for now. I'm not planning on upgrading my Windows version any time soon, though, so if you're a developer, remember the Win98 SE people.
(Of course, I bought Alpha Centauri for Linux. It's a shame about Loki. Can't wait for Bioware to release Neverwinter Nights to run on Linux. And those TOOLS better work under Linux as well.)
Re:My Solution (Score:2)
So have I, but it's somehow "backordered." Who, exactly, would Loki be backordering it from?
Sigh.
Wow. . . (Score:1)
I also hadn't realized that wine was nearing 1.0. .
I'll have to give it a shot again some time soon. . .
Wine code names (Score:3, Funny)
Friend says: "yo dude... I just installed Merlot 1.9
Other Guy: "yeah.... it's pretty sweet man... but I can't wait for Sauvignon Blanc comes out. I hear there's gonna be some big changes in that one"
Friend says: "sweet"
Other Guy: "yeah... super sweet"
Re:Wine code names (Score:2)
Unless of course it's brut.
niche (Score:3, Funny)
What's the niche? Web servers?
What about Win4Lin?? (Score:2, Interesting)
I highly recommend Win4Lin for those of you who are forced into using M$ applications at your place of work (Outlook, etc.). It is pretty fast, and supports everything from Windows networking to sound and primitive USB. I tried WINE before and after Win4Lin, and I know why I'm sticking with Win4Lin.
Re:What about Win4Lin?? (Score:5, Funny)
Except of course, that running Windows kinda defeats the point of not running Windows.
Re:What about Win4Lin?? (Score:2)
-
Average U.S. prison sentence for a murder charge - 6.3 Years.
Average U.S. prison sentence for a marijuana charge - 10 years.
Re:What about Win4Lin?? (Score:2)
Re:What about Win4Lin?? (Score:2)
VMWare doesn't have that problem, as it is more insulated from the OS (being virtual hardware). And WINE doesn't report having that problem (well, it's still beta and under rapid development, so maybe it really does).
But this meant that as nice as Win4Lin was, I had to stop using it relatively soon for over a couple of months. And I never did start using it again.
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From an embarrassed Windows user (Score:5, Insightful)
I felt the article dealt mainly with removing the need for dual-booting for more and more existing Linux users. Why would a Windows user go to the trouble of installing Linux+WINE just to get what they already have (working Win32 apps and games)?
I (and probably other Windows users) will switch when Linux outperforms Windows where it counts - when it does what they have come to expect a PC to do: when it installs without much hassle, when their hardware works immediately or with minimal driver hunting, when they are almost guaranteed a supply of games (remember the success of Commodore 64s?) and when the applications are simple to install and use, and are compatible with files made by colleagues and friends.
I love the idea of WINE. I love the idea of Linux. I've tried Linux. Unfortunately though, I still use Windows because near-enough isn't really good enough. WINE is handy, but a 'Killer App' needs to be something more than simply matching the competition - it has to be the one thing you don't get anywhere else.
Re:From an embarrassed Windows user (Score:2, Interesting)
I (and probably other Windows users) will switch when Linux outperforms Windows where it counts
Linux already outperforms Windows where it counts for me: performance, stability, freedom, licensing, price, availability of databases and programming tools (C, C++, Perl, fortran, Objective-C, awk, bash, DB, postgresql or mysql, and more - are all *just a normal part* of most Linux installs, but with Windows you are lucky to get QBasic or VBScript, which are jokes by comparison), cool interfaces (after Windowmaker, Windows is, well, a little pedestrian - I keep wanting to roll up windows, switch to other desktops, etc - and I hate task bars along the bottom or top of the screen - give me a few icons down the side, and a menu that *doesn't* have a misleading label like "Start" .. and it is SO easy to create your own themes in WindowMaker)
And being dependent upon a single, monopolistic supplier, with proven predatory (anti-capitalistic) practices towards competition, security, and user independence - these count as things to avoid my books.
It is already time to switch. Windows is its own killer app.
Re:From an embarrassed Windows user (Score:2)
So that takes care of part of your scenario. WINE will be installed as a standard part of the installation of Linux.
Another part of your problem has to do with "what is the target audience". At the moment the target audience of WINE is basically people who are hackers. But remember that last year at this time, that was the target audience of Mozilla. I don't follow WINE, so I don't know how well it's coming, but at some point it will start running most windows programs. Or at least a very large number of them without problems. At that point they will switch to having a target audience of power-users as their beta testers. From that point on, things should move rather quickly until all perviously released software for Windows will work with WINE. They may never be able to get OfficeXP to work with it. There may be license issues, targeted code, or both. So that's the basic time limit.
I, however, would be ecstatic if it progressed to the point where I could run Passport Designs "Encore!" music composition program. (It won't run under Win98, only Win95.) And if it could also run Office 97, then windows could leave without a return ticket. (Well, the HP OfficeJet G55 software would also need improvement, but it's already come a long way.)
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Re:From an embarrassed Windows user (Score:2)
To the extent that Windows tries to enforce "digital rights management", Joe User will see the difference.
Free as in beer? Joe User can't tell -- his Windows came bundled with his computer.
True, for current users. But imagine in a year or two, Joe has a choice of buying a computer with Linux&WINE for $X, or a computer with WindowsXP for $(X+100). If WINE is good enough to run the programs he wants to run, Joe might just decide to save the extra money.
Microsoft's response? (Score:4, Interesting)
Or what happens when Microsoft updates their EULA to read: "this program must run on an officially licensed Microsoft Operating System" or starts requiring vendors who want to use the XP logo on their boxes to start including that wording also?
Heck, they could just put it all under the guise of their new security stance.
I'm not trolling, these are all possibilities when playing with MS! You can bet they've got contigency plans all ready for the day when Wine becomes a threat.
Re:Microsoft's response? (Score:4, Informative)
I have seen EULAs that do something like this. The wording they use is "approved operating system", and then go on to state that -- you guessed it -- the only approved OS is Windows.
Re:Microsoft's response? (Score:2)
I don't see licenses like this being a problem for WINE. They don't prevent WINE from being distributed, and they don't prevent anyone from using the programs on Linux anyway. The only problem would be businesses who wanted to use WINE, but even most businesses don't read the EULA. MS would have to come up with some sort of BSA for WINE, and if they did it would be so obvious to everyone that they were complete and total jerks that it would be bad PR.
Re:Microsoft's response? (Score:2)
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again? (Score:2, Insightful)
Choices... (Score:2, Interesting)
I bought win98 on several computers and a lot of old games and programs over the past 10 years, and if I can find a way to run them in parrallel with a better OS, then I will do so.
One of the things that people don't realize is that windows 9x is no longer a supported platform, if there are security holes and the like on that platform, you are on your own. I bet that soon even the virus scanner people will abandon those old platforms, and then you will be in a lot of trouble.
At least WINE will be fully supported by a lot of dedicated programmers for a long time to come. Who knows, we might even learn a few things from the dark side of the source (i.e. windows) and become better programmers.
And I have been wondering about decompiling programs into their original source and recompling them for newer platforms. Doesn't transmeta and the as400 do something this on the fly? It would be so cool to take my windows programs into the coming 64bit and 128bit computing environments that are on the way.
Or to run my full on version of MSOfficePro 4.2 on a PPC.
What's most important: (Score:2)
How's this for an idea.. an Open Source co-op. Lets say 10,000 people need a replacement for Photoshop. If they pool their resources at say, $100 per user (about 1/6 the price of a Photoshop license), that's a million bucks. The co-op then pays perhaps 10 programmers to work full time for 2 years turning Gimp into the most beautifully written image editor ever. Yes, some form of contract would be needed. Yes, the co-op would have to wait until the money is pooled before hiring. But it could work. Or here's another wacky idea. Invest that $1mil and pay a couple programmers to work full time using the interest alone. Money is powerful. We (the OSS community), really need to take advantage of it.
Re:What's most important: (Score:2, Interesting)
A few years back he had a, what seemed to everyone, brilliant idea. He wanted to start a company that would provide matchmaking services between companies needing Open Source coding work done and programmers willing to put time into such projects. The theory was that if 10,000 people wanted a replacement for Photoshop, they'd pool $100 into a bank fund that would later pay for 2 yrs of someone's full-time work.
It all *horribly* flopped. What this gentlemen found out whas that no one wanted to pay for an open source project. There were thousands of developers signing up for his service, some even with already planned apps. Except the user-end of the community didn't want to pony up, not even a nickel. They all wanted it free. Similar situation as with Loki.
Also, consider that 1 million dollars won't buy you 10 developers for 2 years. More realistically, $1M will get you a team of 5 devs (5 x $80K) and 10 testers (10 x $60K) for one year. $1M is peanuts in this industry.
Meanwhile... (Score:4, Insightful)
If that doesn't motivate you to contribute to these projects and help get them out the door, I don't know what will.
It's the wrong idea... (Score:3, Interesting)
Remember OS/2? One of their claims was "it's a better DOS than DOS" and it was true. OS/2 could run DOS with multiple versions and multiple configurations. But did it take off? No. And one of the reasons is that it didn't have the software support. People don't want emulators, they want native applications.
Emulators are good for that application or two that you still need to run aside from your main software. The key is to make that "main software" Linux software and get the users to like them better than the Windows software.
If people want to run Windows apps, they'll run Windows.
Re:It's the wrong idea... (Score:2, Interesting)
I couldnt argue with him. However, he is NOT the only person in that scenario? What do we do with those people?
Re:It's the wrong idea... (Score:2)
Quick fix: Get VMware. It works very well, but has different limitations compared to Wine; most non-3D accelerated programs work perfectly. Win4Lin is also good, and cheaper. It can run applications faster, but it only runs Windows programs, and a smaller number of those. Both require a copy of Windows, where Wine does not. The CD that came with the laptop (if any) may or may not work. Sites: vmware.com and www.netraverse.com.
For my effort, I've started to add applications -- even trivial things like screensavers -- to the Wine Application Database [codeweavers.com]. I've included debugging output for apps -- if they work perfectly or fail drastically. I've included notes on how to get things working with Wine. I've borrowed CDs from friends and tried to install them under Wine.
Do the same, and you might be surprised. Most programs don't work under Wine, but a surprisingly growing list of programs do. Some do require hand-masaging, though most don't.
If more people report what they find -- good or bad -- Wine will get better for the general user.
Re:It's the wrong idea... (Score:2)
This is an often-touted excuse for not having WINE. OS/2 failed because of Microsoft's per-CPU licensing schemes. No-one would buy OS/2 when they had already paid for Windows.
Perhaps you should remember that Office apps supported their competitors' file formats in order to speed migration. That is what WINE is about and is an excellent idea.
Good Heavens (Score:2, Funny)
This guy and his kids live with his mother? CEO's jut don't get bank no more.
How to migrate from Windows (Score:3, Interesting)
Fortunately, VMWare version 3 now supports USB, which can allow installation of drivers for USB hardware.
I can envisage that many people will follow an integration path like:
1) Mainly using Windows, add a linux partition
2) Learn the Linux apps, often boot Windows partition
3) Progressively migrate Windows apps to VMware under Linux, less frequent use of Windows partition
4) Progressively migrate Windows apps from under VMware into the Wine environment
5) Progressively convert data from Windows apps to formats usable by native Linux apps
Hopefully, at some point along this path, one can delete the Windows partition, and later the VMware box, and use only native Linux apps or run some Windows apps under wine.
Realistically, I would hope to be completely free of my Windows partition in 6-12 months, and free of VMware in 6-18 months.
But the time to really 'pop the cork' on the Wine is when it supports native Windows device drivers, which will be a feat indeed!
Re:How to migrate from Windows (Score:2)
VMware uses Windows. So you can't remove Windows and still use VMware to run Windows.
A native Windows is still mandatory for musicians (Score:4, Insightful)
So I tried various versions of Wine and VMWare.
Success was poor on Wine except with sample editors.
It was way better with VMWare except for one thing : latency. Although software was properly working, the sound card output had far too much latency. I guess the problem would be the same with any Windows emulator. The emulation part involves latency, especially when it comes to delivering signal to hardware.
So music makers will have to stick with a native Windows partition
Wine will not make users switch to Windows (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Wine will not make users switch to Windows (Score:2)
I had to repaint a few rooms the other day. At first glance, there were only a few spots and since I had the right paint I preped and painted just those areas. When the paint dried, those places were perfect.
Yet, dents and other spots that I didn't notice at all started to become obvious. So, I preped and painted those new areas. Guess what happened when the paint dried? :(
While I generally agree with what you say...it's way too dire. The time to move is when it's practical, not when every little defect has been addressed.
We should take a page from Microsoft's handbook and accept 80% perfection...as long as the remaining 20% isn't honestly critical for the tasks at hand.
In most cases, I've heard unknowledgeabe gripes about non-Windows environments even from those who are technically wizards under other forms of Unix. The same picking of nits about Mozilla still occurs -- even now that Mozilla rocks and has for a few months.
Reminds me of my nieces refusing to eat sushi because they think they know what it tastes like.
Solves Loki problem (Score:3, Interesting)
THE absolute advantage for game developers are the WINElets which they are working on here [transgaming.com]. It will make rewriting game code unnessecary and, remember, WINE Is Not an Emulator, so i don't really expect speed issues in the future !
Hear me out here. (Score:3, Insightful)
" WINE does not yet support applications that use Windows XP-only features such as .NET. White thinks that as XP-only applications start to appear, WINE will have to accommodate them, but he doesn't see this as a major issue yet, since those applications are few.
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This is not a calling of doom for windows users that want to convert_because_a lot of windows users don't want to buy the newest version of windows, even future Service Packs. Especialy small buisnesses because they have to focus their resources on growth and survival. So since M$ has announced that it will stop supporting Win98X in 2003, this might be the window of oppertunity to switch them over to a more sensable alternative."
Re:Hear me out here. (Score:2)
Exactly. Mozilla and Open Office will be stable and mature by then, and the Gnome 2 and KDE 3 platforms will also be stabilized and (hopefully) ready for Joe Sixpack use. I don't know about KDE 3, so I won't comment either way, but the developments for Gnome 2 are REALLY exciting. Every day I see some really huge improvements over not just the current Gnome, but over the way that Other OS does things. The attention paid to usability (but not forgetting flexability!) is truly impressive. I will be very curious to see how newbies take to Gnome 2 as opposed to say WinXP - both are rather new and foreign, but who's got the easier-to-pick-up-and-run-with desktop environment? I think Gnome may give XP a run for it's money, especially considering that while XP is certainly a lot more *stable* than previous Windows versions, have you checked out it's start menu or control panel? They're visually very "busy" and rather confusing, IMHO. They were MUCH better off before with Windows 9x/2000 style...
Only time shall tell! In the meantime, kudos to both KDE and Gnome teams - we'll have our Windows-killer yet!
No, it needs a better install package (Score:2, Insightful)
I've been a Unix admin for 12 years now and it still takes me some time getting Linux up and running... which honestly is the last thing I want to do when I get home from a day of solving Unix problems. You're not going to be able to tell Grandma that in order for her sound card to work properly, she'll have to recompile the kernel.
Yes, I'd like to see more people using Linux. It would be great to take some of the wind out of Microsoft's sails. Windows does have a history of being buggy and unstable.. but they are getting better with the likes of Win2K and unless Linux developers concentrate on getting an install package that configures everything right the first time, the window of opportunity for taking over the Windows market share will be lost.
Re:No, it needs a better install package (Score:2)
What? (Score:2)
Buddy, ever since Red Hat 6.0, I have yet to see any piece of reasonable hardware (i.e., hardware you might reasonably see in a consumer box) fail to be autodetected. X could still be a pain in the 6.x series, but in 7.2 configuring it was sweet and simple.
If you've been a UNIX admin for twelve years, and it takes you a week to get your network card, sound and video configured properly, you're either using an Yggdrasil CDROM from '95 or else your sound card consists of a telephone transceiver soldered into LPT1 and controlled via smoke signals.
Re:No, it needs a better install package (Score:2)
It's actually more difficult and time-consuming to install Windows than Linux.
What will make the difference is when Linux comes pre-installed like Windows does.
Re:No, it needs a better install package (Score:2)
Unfortunately this is an aspect of MicroSoft's monopoly. They do not allow OEM's to build machines with multiple systems installed, and there is little to no market for the common user for Linux-only. If MicroSoft allowed this Linux may be a common option (especially if they provide an easy way to wipe it and use the disk space for Windows). Much more likely if MicroSoft had allowed this there would be a popular closed-source "game" system from another manufacturer and all systems would dual-boot to this.
Piracy isn't ownership... (Score:2, Interesting)
It's funny how the same users that say why would I switch from Windows to Linux are the same users who complain about crashes and high pricing of Windows apps.
The licensing schemes for Windows for the home user are the least of peoples problems with cost. Office costs far more to license than Windows itself, as does Adobe Photoshop(over 700$).
We have to remember that Wine although a great project and very interesting, will generate more sales for the same companies that overcharge to the extreme for products that would be considered a minor revision upgrade under Linux
I personally feel securing and improving Linux native applications and breaking the corporate grip on the minds of average computer users (aka "I have to have Office 2010 to get any work done!") is far more important to real independence and change.
Re:Piracy isn't ownership... (Score:2)
It is often quite hard to break consumers from that mentality. Part of the issue is that with every "update" to Office, there are very small incompatibility issues (such as bullets, smart quote, etc). If you're in a corporate environment and someone sends you a Word doc in Office 2010 and you can't open it, it could potentially cost you a client. Secondly, it's pretty much the same thing with game consoles. Game console owners must have and must get the latest and newest.
in theory... (Score:3, Funny)
WINE is, in theory, capable of running any application written for Windows 98/Me
To quote Homer Simpson:
Sure, in theeoory. In theory communism works... In theory.
best quote from the article (Score:2, Interesting)
..., Lebor said. "I also find it intriguing that Microsoft has a Linux Competitive Manager if they don't see Linux as competition."
Others need Wine and Lindows for vertical apps. (Score:2, Interesting)
Although I'd love to have Linux as my main OS, I'd still have to duel boot to use some propritory, vertical applications such as apprasial software. They don't make this for linux, and chances are they won't ever unless Windows and MS was to dissipear.
But the same software out of that buggy, crash happy, insecure, and system hogging Windows, into a stable, secure linux. Now your talking! I'd leave windows in a millisecond if I could get all of them working.
That's why, those who said 'If you want windows programs, then why use linux' (or stick with windows, etc.) why I'm supporting Lindows, and WINE so strongly. If I *have* to use those programs, then I want a choice of what OS they run under! I want a stable, secure, lean OS. Is that too much to ask?
Now if they can work out an easy to install/upgrade way for KDE, AND WINE then I'll consider these two options
Shaddock Delaforge (shadwalk@operamail.com)
I can't get too excited... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Linux Competitive Manager? (Score:2)
So what needs to be done, of course, is what has been done all along: force Windows on the desktop.
Re:WHY SO MUCH EMPHASIS ON M$ OFFICE? (Score:2)
But they don't have the essential feature: a Microsoft Logo.
If you have to migrate from MS office to something else, while changing OS etc, the benefit shrinks into oblivion compared to the effort and hassle of getting it working, the risk it won't be 100% bug-for-bug compatible, the time spent adjusting to the new software and so on.
Re:WHY SO MUCH EMPHASIS ON M$ OFFICE? (Score:2)
In the real world we use MS Office (Score:3, Insightful)
You see, the real world works like this:
1) You're running Linux at your workplace.
2) You get mail from your valued client: "Please find our budget attached". There is an Excel file as an attachment.
3) You try opening the file with StarOffice. It won't open, however, since it contains complex graphs and macros (happens to me all the time).
4) Are you REALLY going to mail your client and ask him not to mail you Microsoft Office attachments???
Grow up. Most people HAVE to use Microsoft at workplace. Not everyone is a network/sys-admin.
Re:In the real world we use MS Office (Score:2)
Re:WHY SO MUCH EMPHASIS ON M$ OFFICE? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's because publishers and everyone else in the publishing chain work in Word. No, import/export filters are not good enough -- because it's not just about the text. For example, Word has "revision marks" -- a system of keeping track of editorial changes to a document, who made them, when they were made, etc. An editor can easily step through each edit in a document, look at both the pre- and post-edit versions of a sentence, and certify the one of two (or of three or of four) versions which works best in context.
This type of data is not preserved across imports/exports because StarOffice, Applix, KWord, etc. have no concept of such a feature, so they have no reason to try to import the revision data; they just discard all of it (including the entire stream of edits and ceritifications from editors, co-authors, etc) and import the document in original form. WordPerfect Office 2000 for Linux *did* have such a feature and imported it more or less correctly... but WordPerfect Office 2000 for Linux has been pulled from the market.
This is only one specific instance, but it is not an isolated one. There are many other Word features which are closely tied to file format and vice-versa, and if the entire publishing chain of your publication or press has tied its processes and equipment to Word, you're not going to change this by waltzing in one day and saying "I use Linux so we're all switching to OpenOffice, you'll have to find new ways of doing W, X, Y and we'll now have to hire someone to do Z because OpenOffice won't do it!"
The features just aren't there for most Linux applications (even GIMP, when compared to Photoshop or Corel Draw, comes up far short), and at the same time, the inertia of Windows-world applications is there, in spades. The same can easily be said for other MS Apps. MS Office is a great product. The only general-purpose competitor which comes close is from Corel, and has been discontinued for Linux users.
That is not to say that I think Wine is a useful product. I've tried it over and over and over again for half a decade and it has never worked for anything other than Solitaire. I don't see the point in releasing a 1.0 version when it still won't install Internet Explorer (any version), MS Office (any version) or Photoshop (any version). Why bother?
Revision marks... (Score:3, Informative)
If I'm mistaken and some feature of revision marks doesn't work as expected let me know and I'll go bring it up in one of the OpenOffice lists.
As for the other issues, list them here or (better yet) tell the folks at OpenOffice.org. They are very open to comments on improving the editor as well as any other part of the suite.
Revision marks quick how-to:
Export -- File...Save as... and choose one of these;
Microsoft Word 95
Microsoft Word 6
Import -- File...Open (choose document from list; default is show "All" files)
Since you are in journalism, I'll leave it up to you to get Sun to fork over a copy of StarOffice 6 beta. The last open beta closed at the end of 2001. The next release is expected to be 6.0 final (or close to it).
Re:Revision marks... (Score:2)
Re:Revision marks... (Score:2)
I think that's bullshit, and perhaps even laziness and plain whining. How did they *ever* get their work done when typing text into XyWrite in an amber terminal! The horror! Oh yeah, the quality of journalism has gone up a lot since those days, all thanks to Microsoft and their glorious Word Processor! Not. Each new version just keeps improving journalism! Not. One day Microsoft will take us all to Planet Blisstonia! All hail The Leader!
Really. I've worked for newspapers. Back in the Varityper, gang-halftoning, xacto and wax-machine, Macintosh II and XyWrite on an amber terminal days. If you need "revision marks" to do your job, then your editors are morons.
End rant.
Re:WHY SO MUCH EMPHASIS ON M$ OFFICE? (Score:3, Informative)
I also give the users a choice, Office 2000 and Open office is installed on every workststion. and every employee has been told that I will give them free legal copies of the office suite (open office) for home use if they ask. I have given away 20 copies now, and the use of power point has dropped by 40% and continues to drop. (if they make their presentation at home It's not powerpoint!)
Microsoft word has ome nice features. but nobody takes you serious with the picture you paint of doom and gloom that will happen if word went away. Hell Journalism and writers did their jobs well onmanual typewriters! in fact the best journalism on the planet was done on them 40 years ago.... and the world has yet to match the quality of thought put into the journalism of the 1960's - 1970's.
Re:WHY SO MUCH EMPHASIS ON M$ OFFICE? (Score:2)
Re:WHY SO MUCH EMPHASIS ON M$ OFFICE? (Score:2)
I'd go into more detail, but I'm on a tight deadline with my (Windows-locked) book publisher, and I need to get another chapter in by Monday.
Next book project, OpenOffice. I look forward to it; OO is great! But I started the current book-in-progress using SO 5.2 and don't want to change midstream.
- Robin
Re:majority of wine users arn't concerned with off (Score:2)
Some time ago (probably the last Wine topic) I posted a comment saying that emulation is bad for Linux (and others). It allows authors to write for Windows and ignore Linux, while still getting revenue from Linux users. I don't want to repeat that discussion, but it is applicable. The better and more popular Wine gets, the worse the Linux applications will get.
Re:WINE discourages native Linux apps (Score:3, Informative)
By running everything as a Linux-native app, you get the stability of Linux almost all the way through.
The biggest issue holding up Linux is the lack of Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI) support, which would give Linux the ability to do true automatic system configuration and updating, not to mention truly functional power saving ability. I do believe that one of goals of the eventual Linux 2.6.x kernel will include ACPI support.
Re:Why pitch Wine as reason to switch? (Score:2)