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Technology

Non-Apple Buttonless Mouse 216

Posted by CmdrTaco from the sucker-for-futuristic-toys dept.
MX pointed us to a story about a new buttonless mouse. It's visually quite unique, but they say it's not the ideal gaming device for you real-time-gaming folks. But hey, points for style. I've been using this optical cordless logitech (Blatant ThinkGeek linkage) on my desktop for awhile, although I'm not sure how well it'd work for gaming. When I play, I still use a MS Optical mouse. Whatever anyone thinks about their business practices and operating systems, they sure seem to always sell good mice.
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Non-Apple Buttonless Mouse

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  • Tanks (Score:2, Interesting)

    by metalhed77 ( 250273 )
    This seems like it would be good for implementing a targeting system in say tank simulations. Where you can move the mouse to move the tank, and move your hand on the mouse to move the turret. Also good for 3d modeling as they say
  • One of the thingks I've missed in the Apple buttonless is the wheel. Once you get used to that little sucker, it's hard to live without him. (Sure, it's a button, I guess, but not one I'd do without...)
    • Ever find yourself stroking the spot between the left and right mouse button on a mouse without a wheel?

      Brain: I want to scroll down.

      Hand: Alrighty, Brain!

      Brain: I don't see any scrolling. I think I'm going to cry.

      These buttonless mice look pretty spiffy, but I can't imagine using one to play Quake! I'm SO rough with my mouse [logitech.com]. It's so comfy!

      • Ever find yourself stroking the spot between the left and right mouse button on a mouse without a wheel?

        ALL the time, and practically EVERY time I've got a non-wheel mouse in my hand. I never thought that such a little addition could be so addictive. The first time I was with one, I found it a bit of a nusance. Not 1 day later I had a "normal" mouse in my hand, and found myself rubbing the mouse where the wheel shoud've been.

        I ran into the samething with the M$ Natural Keyboards. There was one sitting around the office that no one wanted to use. I figured "what the hell" and tried it. I yelled at that thing for 2 days straight. I finally got fed up enough and put a "normal" keyboard back on my box. I couldn't use it! After that, I plugged the Natural back in and ordered one for home. I've been using a Natural ever since. That was like 2 years ago. ( I HATE the cursor keys on the newer Naturals, but ALL pain in my wrists totally went away after using the Natural. I think that out-weighs a bit of annoyance (and a few extra times of getting fragged... :-) ).
        • That's one of Micros~1's monopoly tactics: make protocols that are close to normal ones, but just different enough that one can't use both, and make hardware that acts the same! :)
      • Did you hax0rz the logitech site? Why did it redirect us back to a slashdot page?
        • WTF? I chose Poland, and a girl in her bra shows up on the Polish Logitech site.
          • WTF? I chose Poland, and a girl in her bra shows up on the Polish Logitech site.

            Well, I'll be darned. It doesn't have that pic for any of the other countries, though the German page has a picture of a scantily-clad man and woman lounging under an ad for their iFeel Optical. Verrry subtle.
  • What? and you don't post my story on the keyless keyboard?

  • MS mice (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Tet ( 2721 )
    I still use a MS Optical mouse. Whatever anyone thinks about their business practices and operating systems, they sure seem to always sell good mice.

    Personally, I've never understood why people are so obsessed with MS mice. There's nothing wrong with them, although I think the ergonomics are sometimes designed for show rather than use. But when Logitech discontinued the Pilot mouse, I went out and bought a whole bunch. I've yet to find anything better. MS mice, and newer Logitech mice all lack a full size middle button, and those with wheels impede the use of the middle button. I've never understood why wheel mice didn't have a traditional three button layout with the wheel on the side, being thumb operated...

    • Re:MS mice (Score:5, Interesting)

      by baptiste ( 256004 ) <mike@baptis[ ]us ['te.' in gap]> on Saturday February 16, 2002 @12:39PM (#3018302) Homepage Journal
      I have to disagree. While I can't stand MS and the way they behave in the software arena, they can make awesome mice, keyboards, etc. How many of us would give up the wheel? The Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 is hands down the best mouse out there IMHO. It actaully fits my hand, is smooth over any surface, and just has a great 'feel' - plus it looks cool. But even something as plain as a keyboard - their keyboards are still very nice. I always thought shortcut keys on a keyboard were overkill, but now that I use them - I can't live without them (I switch between 2K and Linux and miss the keys when I'm in Linux)

      So I agree with Taco - MS can make a sweet mouse.

      • Re:MS mice (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        While the scroll wheel at first seemed like a great idea, I found out that it is a real ergonomics disaster. I started getting nasty carpal tunnel syndrome symptoms after using the wheel too much, and went back to using the Apple Pro Mouse that came with my Mac. No more unnatural and highly repetitive finger motions...

        • Re:MS mice (Score:2, Interesting)

          by SoupIsGoodFood_42 ( 521389 )
          Maybe you shouldn't be using the scroll wheel so much. I've never had any problems with mine, and never know anyone else who has had any problems. I have it set to scroll 5 lines. I dosen't take much effort to scroll down a few comments.
          If I really need to scroll far. I'll just use the scroll bar.
          I find it no more unatural than moving the cursor over to the scroll bar, or uisng the page down key.
          What kind of mouse did you have? The MS one I have, has a very easy to turn wheel. I have noticed that some are quite clicky/sticky/hard. And I could understand getting CTS if you were using one of them.

          My only complaint about the MS Explorer mouse is that it's too damn bulky. It's not something I realised untill I started to use it. I never used to rest my hand on the mouse. Just grip it with my fingers. The ergonomics can get in the way some times because they must expect you to rest your whole hand on it.

      • How many of us would give up the wheel?

        I've never yet found a use for a wheel on a mouse, so I'd have to raise my hand at this point...

      • Why are you missing keys when in Linux? Every key on my keyboard is active including the speaker volume adjust, play, stop (mapped to XMMS), shopping, browser, etc. They all work. You just need to configure them.

        And yes - having shortcut keys is really useful.

        Cheers,
        Toby Haynes
      • MS mice are flashy and comfortably shaped for many hands. But MS has trouble with basic usability issues: the scroll wheel is not a very good controller for scrolling in actual experiments.

        Now, about those Windows shortcut keys, if you want to use them in Linux, there is nothing stopping you. You can bind them to whatever kind of menu, modifier, or action you want.

      • Re:MS mice (Score:2, Interesting)

        by eleven357 ( 449450 )
        I would have to disagree due to the fact that I've previously owned an MS Intellimouse Optical. As far as playing q3a went, the mouse jumped here and there, especially annoying when trying to frag. The funny thing was that I always kept my mouse drivers up to date and I still continued to have this problem with the MS Intellimouse Optical. Thats when I decided to trash the MS mouse and go for a Logitech Dual Optical. Now this Dual Optical mouse is the ideal mouse for any of you FPS fans, since if one laser fails to track, the other laser picks up where the other one stopped tracking. I personally like Logitech's Dual Optical as far as optical mice are concerned. And As far as the smooth surfaces go, the Logitech is also alot smoother, and also seems to be more ergonomically correct for my hand. But I guess it all really boils down to personal preference, so get whatever floats your boat!
    • I still think mouse designers have yet to top the Logitech M-CQ38, triangular tilted 3-button PS/2 ball mouse that works fine for me. A scroll wheel gets in the way, I don't want it, and those elongated-ovoid-shaped mice that seem to dominate the market these days feel like they were designed for E.T.
    • optical MS mice are very very nice. In terms of shape and precision. I perssonaly use logitech wireless optical for "work" and razer boomslang 1000 for games. But maybe that's because i've gone anti MS lately :))))

    • Re:MS mice (Score:3, Interesting)

      by MattRog ( 527508 )
      You can 'click' the mousewheel. Acts as a perfect 3rd button if you change it in the IntelliPoint software. I'll agree with Taco as well -- MS Mice Rox0r!
      • It also works perfectly in X. I have three Logitech cordless desktop (the ones with the "normal looking" keyboard and mouse), and use the third button for paste all the time. The wheel also works in every KDE app with no problem - even better than in Windows, IMO, as the window that you're scrolling dosen't need focus - it just scrolls the pane underneath the pointer.

        Anybody know if the Logitech optical mouses work with the desktops without a seperate reciever? All the keyboards and mice I have "bind" to a reciever, and can then be used in the same room, and can be swapped back and forth (rebind them to a new reciever by hitting connect on both the device and receiever) with no problem. No interference, no crosstalk. These are truely well built pieces of hardware.

        --
        Evan

    • Usualy the wheel can click, acting as the middle button. This can cause problems if you are prone to rolling the wheel while trying to press it. I have Taco's Logitech mouse (or the same model, rather) and the fourth button, on the thumb, is also a "middle button". This solves the above issue. The fact that this is /all/ I can get the fourth button to do is my failure to configure linux.
      My favorite mouse ever was my Logitech Series 9 [lehigh.edu], which went into spasms and had to be removed from service. I plan to replace its guts with a wheel mouse some day, giving it every feature I want.
    • Here here! I use an MS Intellimouse Explode at work and it's... OK. I find the body too arched, I don't wan't or need either the scroll wheel or the extra 3 buttons (my model has four) and I don't see any purpose in the "tail light". But, it works OK, mine tracks very well on the table top and - although others in my office behave erratically - the click pressure is about right. I've got to say that the MS mouse actually CREAKS if you squeeze it! WTF? My other mouse is an Apple Pro-Mouse, which I REALLY DO infinitely prefer.
    • I use a mouse just as you discribe. It happens to be the puck that came with my Wacom Intuos Tablet. It also has a row of two buttons behind the first.

  • Help desk (Score:4, Funny)

    by jACL ( 75401 ) on Saturday February 16, 2002 @12:33PM (#3018264)
    User: My mouse doesn't have any buttons? How do I click?
    Helpdesk: Lean left.
    User: What, the buttons are in the seat now?
    Helpdesk: No, lean the mouse left.
    User: But how do I move it around then?
    Helpdesk: Er...put it back.
    User: What if I have to click and drag?
    Helpdesk: Hang on, let me just open up a hardware service ticket.

  • Not enough memory ... (Score:4, Funny)

    by NWT ( 540003 ) on Saturday February 16, 2002 @12:34PM (#3018270) Homepage
    Warning: Can't create a new thread (errno 11). If you are not out of available memory, you can consult the manual for a possible OS-dependent bug in /home/sites/site84/web/class_db.php on line 7

    Hehe,it seems their webserver is running on a mouse, too :-)

  • Having looked at the mouse... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Tsar ( 536185 ) on Saturday February 16, 2002 @12:34PM (#3018273) Homepage Journal
    It appears to me that the mouse still has left-right buttons, but they're in the underside of the mouse body, so you have to tilt the entire body to activate a button by pressing the appropriate corner harder against the desk. Cool, but like the man said, you lose some fine control and quick response time.

  • Mice and gaming. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jidar ( 83795 ) on Saturday February 16, 2002 @12:35PM (#3018275)

    Yeah you definately wouldn't want to be using a mouse like that for gaming. In fact, even using an optical mouse isn't a good thing if you are competing at the world level.

    What you will find if you look into the Pro gamer community (this might sound like I'm kidding, but it really exists: http://www.shackes.com) is that most of them do not like optical mice. They simply don't have high enough sampling rate in most cases. If you turn fast enough with an optical then tend to freak out for a second resulting in your player staring at the floor or sky and spinning. Also, the movements and physics of using an optical are somewhat different. For instance the 'flick' motion that a lot of players have mastered doesn't translate well to an optical.

    Opticals are nice because of their longevity, and low maintenance, but if you're seriuos then ball is still king.

    • Re:Mice and gaming. (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I would say that the real reason for this is not the inherent superiority of ball mice for gaming but the fact that most very serious (ie Pro and near Pro) gamers learned to play on ball mice. Since the two do feel different, they do not switch for fear of losing some of their edge. Wait for the day when almost all mice are optical - there will be a generation of Pro gamers using them (unless something better comes along first).

      • Re:Mice and gaming. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by debrain ( 29228 ) on Saturday February 16, 2002 @01:17PM (#3018446) Journal
        There is the genuine issue that your parent message brought up - the sampling rate on optical mice is too low to adequately map the expected motions to interpreted motions, and hence the human user performs operations that the hardware does not interpret as the human expected or anticipated.

        The obvious consequence of this is a sharp flick to the right or left which leads to a Quake 3 character staring at the ground for no apparent reason, and subsequent death and loss of the competition. This can be compensated for with extremely, and I mean extremely, high sensitivity, in the order such that 0.5 cm corresponds to your screen resolution in terms of a desktop.

        However, that being said, the human user does not have the physical coordination to operate at that level. As such, until optical resolutions are significantly higher, users of track balls and ball mice will have superior granularity and better correspondence between the expected behavior of the hardware and the actual behaviour of the hardware, irregardless of the skill, training, and habits of the users.

        The advantage is in the correspondence between expected behaviour and actual behaviour, it being much better with track balls and ball mice (which are optical, but in a different way) than it is with optical mice.

        (Just a note - have a look at trackball patterns; it is not a uniform pattern but a miss-mash pattern with form following function)

        Having been one of, and knowing some of, the better Unreal Tournament players in my time, the differences, in not playability but infinitisemal advantages that lead to domination over a long enough time period, are well known and examined. Optical mice do not require a very long time period to assert their inferiority. ;)
    • This is actually not true anymore. With the new genration (explorer 3.0, logitech dual optical) alot of pros play with optical especially in Counter-strike (The world champions NIP mostly use explorer 3.0 for an example). Alot of the Quake players are also shifting to optical. http://www.xsreality.com/?a=post&id=16932

  • Microsoft's mice (Score:4, Interesting)

    by stevie-boy ( 145403 ) on Saturday February 16, 2002 @12:35PM (#3018276)
    Whatever anyone thinks about their business practices and operating systems, they sure seem to always sell good mice.

    I replaced the hideous 'pebble' supplied with my iMac with an MS optical wheel mouse, it's probably the best £30 I've spent on computing kit.

    The Classic MacOS drivers for the extra button and scrolly wheel work without incident and MacOSX has support built in.

  • my thoughts exactly. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gimpboy ( 34912 ) <john,m,harrold&gmail,com> on Saturday February 16, 2002 @12:36PM (#3018280) Homepage
    Whatever anyone thinks about their business practices and operating systems, they sure seem to always sell good mice.

    i say the same about nike [nikeworkers.org]. who cares if small asian children work 16 hours a day for almost nothing-they sure make good shoes. really though it's called having principles. if you think a company is bad, for whatever reason, you shouldnt do business with that company-not just the part of the company you disagree with.

    mod me down if you want, but i personally dont appreciate the hypocrisy.

    • Re:my thoughts exactly. (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      the thing is, you are probably just as morally bankrupt as ol' bill, but you're just jealous that you don't have his billions. until you are jesus christ, get out of pulpit.

    • Re:my thoughts exactly. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by JWhitlock ( 201845 ) <John-Whitlock&ieee,org> on Saturday February 16, 2002 @01:07PM (#3018414)
      i say the same about nike [nikeworkers.org]. who cares if small asian children work 16 hours a day for almost nothing-they sure make good shoes. really though it's called having principles. if you think a company is bad, for whatever reason, you shouldnt do business with that company-not just the part of the company you disagree with.

      WHOA! How about a little perspective, huh? Is Microsoft doing anything on the level of exploiting third-world children? Sure, they've been convicted of operating an illegal monopoly, but the only folks that got hurt were those trying to sell software of their own. Is this the principle you are trying to follow - fair competition in a regulated market? Does that mean your principles lead you to buy third-party software? Or is your principle that software should be free, and thus you don't care about those other businesses that were shut out? I must admit, I'm not sure what you are talking about, and I can't wrap my brain around any principle that lumps Microsoft's "business practices and operating systems" with Nike's treatment of third-world workers. Or, are you commenting that Nike's new initiatives to help third-world workers are comparable to Microsoft's new initiatives to fix security problems?

      Personally, I'm quite happy about Microsoft's business practices - they resulted in cheap PCs (every PC didn't have to meet IBM's specs, just Microsoft's) and angry programmers, which directly resulted in the Linux operating system. Linux may be putting a free operating system in every computer, but Microsoft put those computers on people's desks - they are like the ugly booster rockets that put the shuttle in orbit.

      BTW, horrible link to NIKEWORKERS.ORG. Like your comments, it assumes everything (that you agree that Nike exploits third-world workers) and explains nothing (no examples of Nike's exploitation). In fact, the only stories in the ABOUT section were old articles about paid endorsers that didn't know about the problems, and the only links in the NEWS section were about Reebok! This [nikewages.org] would have been a better link.

      • i dunno why i'm even replying to this... its not my fight.
        I must admit, I'm not sure what you are talking about

        he says it right here:

        if you think a company is bad, for whatever reason, you shouldnt do business with that company-not just the part of the company you disagree with.

        btw, nicely assembled troll. You should meet these [yahoo.com] guys [yahoo.com]. (See what I mean here [yahoo.com].)

  • Warning: Can't create a new thread (errno 11). If you are not out of available memory, you can consult the manual for a possible OS-dependent bug in /home/sites/site84/web/class_db.php on line 7

    Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Can't create a new thread (errno 11). If you are not out of available memory, you can consult the manual for a possible OS-dependent bug in /home/sites/site84/web/class_db.php on line 7

    ERROR: Unable to connect to database.
  • is it me, or are there little OSDN hints in the stories?

    the more than obvious ones, the 'here's an OSDN link' ... or check this out from our partner ...

    is it me, or is this a new thing? we all know /. is part of OSDN, but why make it extremely obvious/annoying?

  • Lovin' Apple's (Score:4, Interesting)

    by piecewise ( 169377 ) on Saturday February 16, 2002 @12:37PM (#3018285) Journal
    Apple's buttonless, (beautiful), optical mouse has been great for me. They say Macs are more productive computers because of the user interface.. I agree.. but I must admit I wasted a lot of time originally just looking at this thing.. it's weird.. the inside of it appears to "float". You can't tell this in pictures but in 'real life' it seems to float. It reminds me of mercury actually, in a sense. The Apple logo inside, especially, floats within it. It's a really great mouse.. and it's connected to a G4 tower, so that ain't bad either!

    Wow, I'm talking about *nothing* and I've still developed a paragraph! Much like my english papers. I'm done now...
    • it's weird.. the inside of it appears to
      "float"

      hehe, yeah, I've noticed that too... it looks like a polished piece of black stone suspended within the mouse... the keyboard is sort of that way as well... funky mostly-clear styling, with the wires and chips somehow hidden. Neat stuff! My desk is pretty wild with my Apple LCD, keyboard, and mouse... plus my "speckled granite" Silicon Graphics 21" CRT, keyboard, and mouse.

  • Microsoft Hardware (Score:4, Informative)

    by neema ( 170845 ) on Saturday February 16, 2002 @12:38PM (#3018295) Homepage
    "Whatever anyone thinks about their business practices and operating systems, they sure seem to always sell good mice."

    Difference being is this. Microsoft software is made, mostly, within Microsoft. Microsoft hardware is hardware someone else makes and they just slap on a label onto it.

    Microsoft hardware is actually really good, and the support for it is amazing. My optical mouse was tweaking out for some reason, so I called them and they sent me another one by the next day. They didn't require me to send in my old one. It probably didn't cost them much anyway, but it was still a cool gesture.
    • Microsoft hardware is actually really good

      It may be true about mice and joysticks, but the keyboards they resell are really of the ``el cheapo'' kind. Nothing really comparable to a good old IBM PS/2 [pckeyboard.com] (see here [pckeyboard.com] and here [pckeyboard.com]) or a Keytronic [keytronic.com] (see here [keytronic.com]).

    • Probably the main reason why Microsoft invests a lot of money into making good keyboards and mice and other accessories is that it's just another place for them to advertise their logo on your desk.

      • As soon as i read this comment, i took out my trusty chef's knife and cleared the M$-Logo from my Intellimouse Optical. I needed 10 seconds to remove the logo.

        How long does it take to do the same to any other M$-Product?

        • Well, I just grabbed my knife and tried to get the logo off of my Windows startup screen. Unfortunately, as soon as I got the hole in the glass to get access to it, my monitor started futzing out on me. So now the logo's gone, but not because I cut it out.

          Cutting it out of the retail packaging, on the other hand, went rather smoothly. So I'm 1 for 2.
    • I own a Microsoft mouse and keyboard. But its okay, I scraped the Microsoft logos off with a razor blade.

      No, I'm not joking. ;)

    • Re:Microsoft Hardware (Score:2, Informative)

      by grumbly ( 79185 )
      Difference being is this. Microsoft software is made, mostly, within Microsoft. Microsoft hardware is hardware someone else makes and they just slap on a label onto it.

      Ohhh.. SO close. You are almost correct in saying that someone else makes but what you really mean is that someone else manufactures it. MS does all its hardware design in house [microsoft.com] (mice, keyboards, joysticks, games pads...) and then subcontracts out the manufacturing.
  • Buttonless mice have been available for ages. This is not a new thing.

    Check it out. [worldnet.net]

  • While 'bloated' with the explorer-name, i really enjoy the feel of the mouse .. it fits nicely in my palm and the 3.0-version has better update (which was a small problem with the first version, at least when doing fps-gaming and you suddenly wanted to turn all the way around) ..

    The 3.0 is also a bit "lower" than the previous version (1.0) and looks more logitechish .. i'd recommend it for anyone looking for a good, optical mouse.. the only problem is that they've moved the 'next/prev' buttons since 1.0, so i press them accidently from time to time ..

    and .. it doesnt bluescreen. there's a red flare, however.
  • I must admit as well that microsoft does well in the interface device category. I happen to be fond of their joysticks. But, Logitech always seems to make their mice and keyboard better and for gamepads I've always got to go with a Gravis.
  • Ever since I first saw them, I have oned a few MS Optical Mice. For some reason, MS Hardware is damn fine division. I had a faulty Intellimouse Optical, got a new one replaced, no charge. Had the smaller white one faulty, replaced, no charge. I now own 2 of the small, one of the large Grey ones...love my technical referrals? I also own the Logitech cordless optical mouse and cordless keyboard. First off , Optical is the way to go. Secondly, MS is good at hardware. Thirdly, Support is great for both W2K and Linux, no hassles anywhere. Except for programming those extra buttons for the logitech keyboard in Linux. Oh well, maybe someday I'll figure out the keycodes and write a little hack to make the buttons work.

    I would like to try this no button mouse, when I am working (coding) I occassionally get serious serious hand pain (no jokes..lol).

    It will last for days and is quite painful. All of us in tech jobs, spending long hours at computers should take a serious look at ergonomics. Also, your employer should pay for upgrading your chair, keyboard and mouse if you feel pain with your current setup. It's your health, your future, hell, go out and buy what you want and throw the bill at your boss if you're in pain (not literally throw it, figuratively). I would in fact suggest sitting down with your employer and going over ergonomics and how it can effect employee productivity.

    Maybe some of these links would be helpful:

    Design/Layout [123sortit.com]
    Ergonomics - A Practical Guide [leuwico.com]
    Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and Computer Related Repetitive Strain Injuries [ctsplace.com]

    I am gonna buy one, the tiny little muscles used in your hands to click the mice buttons place a huge strain on your arm over a period of time. It may not bother you now, but let's talk in 20 years....

    • Oh well, maybe someday I'll figure out the keycodes and write a little hack to make the buttons work.

      Use xev to find out the keycodes. Then use xmodmap to give them keysyms (choose names from /usr/X11R6/include/X11/keysymdef.h). There are applications to assign arbitrary commands to keysyms. Some window managers (eg sawfish) have this built in.

    • Before you blast me, here me out. I had wrist problems and tried a number of different mice. I have a little collection of mice in storage now. You know what one did more (for my wrists that is) then any other one? A trackball. And when you think about it you can relize why. With a normal mouse you mover your wrist all around, but with a trackball you use your thumb for everything. This drematicly reduces the amount of stress on your wrists. Granted it took me two weeks to be able to master it and another month to get my gimp skills back, but it was worth it. Unfortunetly for you lefties it is a little harder to find a trackball, but give it a shot.

      As for keyboard I ended up getting a Kinesis, but that is for another post.

      As for desk I built my own to match my height so my wrists are in the least amount of pain. (90 angle at elbo)

      -Benjamin Meyer
      • I have never actually gone the way of the trackball. Whenever I tried them, they did the same as you say, felt clunky and I just couldn't get myself to adjust. If I do stuff in the gimp or any other image editing type app, I'll fall back to my Wacom writing tablet. After using a tablet, mice seem really crude. But I might try out a trackball, since they aren't all together too expensive...
      • I'll seccond the Trackball! I've had most versions logitech has made in the past ten years, and every one has been worth the (sometimes) expensive price. I'm currently using the Wireless Optical Trackball, and it makes all the difference. Want to read slashdot? Lean back your chair back, put your feet up, and hold your mouse on your lap and really relax. It's well worth the double AA battery each month.

        There does seem to be a learning curve for them, but unfortunatly I can't comment as I was young enough that "it just seemed natural" to start using it. As long as you've got something else for gaming(and in the days of USB, you aren't limited to just one pointing device), I really recomend them.
      • Not everyone can use a trackball, at least without a lot of training. It requires a great degree of motor control in the thumb that some of us just don't have.

        For me at least, using a trackball is like typing with my elbows.
    • Kookyness. First you say: For some reason, MS Hardware is damn fine division
      then you mention: I had a faulty Intellimouse,
      then, as if one failed unit wasn't enuff, you Had the smaller white one faulty.
      Hmmm... what fine examples of a "superior mouse"
      • Superior in terms of overall usage, comfort level and my personal opinion. Sure hardware sometime goes out faulty (little loose wires etc). Superior customer service, a phone call and reciept cleared up the problem. They paid for shipping and sent me a brand new mouse. This is the real world, things happen and sometimes hardware is defective. The question then comes down to, how does the company treat me as a customer if there is a problem? No horror story here, they were excellent. Now well more than a year later, all mice still run perfectly.

        Might have been a bit vague, but I thought my point was made, sorry if it was not.

        Still goes to my end point, the hardware is great. If something happens and it breaks due to manufacturer defect, they should replace it, and they did. So yes, it is a fine example.

        I'm just sitting here wondering why you come off sounding like a knob?

    • Two points:
      • I started getting mouse-hand pain a few years ago – probably not the `standard' form, though as it was my palm that hurt, not my wrist. Anyway, I found a simple solution: mouse left-handed! I found it surprisingly easy, and now find it more comfortable than mousing right-handed, as it evens the hands out: instead of having one hand covering half the letter keys, the cursor keys, the numberic keypad and the mouse, the hands are much more evenly balanced. (I also found some, erm, other things are also great left-handed... ;)
      • Buttonless mice such as the one supplied with my Mac G4 seem much easier on the hand than buttoned mice. You've much more freedom to change your grip, and you can click almost anywhere on it. (And before I get flamed, no, Real Programmers don't need at least 3 buttons! Maybe Windoze forces you, but Mac OS works very comfortably with one as well as with more. Honest.)

      • I agree with your 3 button comment. I was actually expecting someone to flame with why I wasn't using vi in text mode :)

        I am a lefty, but now that I think of it, I never acutally tried using my left hand to control the mouse. So, here I am trying to do it...I feel like I do when I try to write with my right hand. Pretty klunky and having trouble getting used to it. But certainly a thought....

  • /. ed (Score:2, Funny)

    by kevinqtipreedy ( 450228 )
    Wow it seems like whenever there is a good story not on cnet.com only the first 3 people can get to it. It takes 5 people to make a conspiracy: slashdot, osdn, the site that gets ./ed, me, and you. There is only one solution, well besides everyone upgrading hardware/bandwidth incase they get slashdoted, and thats to get even. What goes around comes around, so we should all slashdot slashdot. So everyone follow this link check out this awesome story online at http://www.slashdot.org [slashdot.org] !!!!!!
  • While this story gets hammered. You can visit them here [greenworld.net].
  • "Whatever anyone thinks about their business practices and operating systems, they sure seem to always sell good mice."
    I beg to differ. Microsoft Products always follow a distinct cycle: release the first (frequently bad) rev, and evolve it from there. It's like an iterative approximation algorithm. Compare Windows 2.0 to Windows98, or IE 3.0 to IE 5.5; while the overall shape is largely similar, the finer points have evolved substantially, such that the product became something that people were willing to use, and not simply avoid.

    I owned one of the first Microsoft mice, by sheer chance. They're still shaped the same way now as they were back then, but the mouse I had was fully dead within 12 months. Since then, they've evolved the product substantially, to something that many people tout as the holy grail of mice.

    I have a personal preference for Logitech optical trackballs, and haven't used any MS mice since my first one died (it really was that shoddy of a product). It's also my personal belief that Microsoft takes their "evolution" process too far, and throws in too many features at the expense of stability and longevity. Note that I draw no comparisons to WinXP or IE 6.
    • How long ago did you own that "first microsoft mouse"? My dad had this old clicky Microsoft Mouse for his IBM XT, probably circa 1986-87. I don't think I'd describe it as shaped the same way they are now - it wasn't ergonomic at all. And the two buttons on it hurt your wrist to use.

      By the time Windows 3.1 came out, the MS mice were more like todays modern mouse. I think they were usually bundled with a copy of Win3.1.
  • I still contend that such products although good, should still be referred to as "microsoft rats"!
  • Optical mice aren't too good for FPS style games. They always 'slip' if you move them too quickly (you end up looking down - not too good when trying to shoot someone before you kill you).

    A good solid ye olde ball mouse is very good. I highly recommed the Logitech WingMan Gaming Mouse (if you can find one). With the shoot, jump, reload style of games, you need 3 buttons minimum.
  • Slightly OT, but one thing really has me bothered...

    Why didn't Apple use a wireless keyboard and mouse on its new iMacs? It seems to me that the entire beauty of the machine is completely ruined by having to look at these cables.

    • If they did so, they'll never sold the new iMAc to any school or public places. Mouse is so small, too easy to pick up and take home.

      At my collage, we had a new wireless mouse in our presentation room, it last 2 days before someone took it. I guess it ended up on eBay already.
    • Its true about them being easy to pick up if used in public places, but there is also the point that they'd either have to have AA batteries inside them, or have them plug in to recharge. The new iMac is Apple's consumer machine, its simple and uncomplicated. Its designed to be easy to use, and I think that a lot of potential iMac owners out there would get sick very quickly of replacing the batteries. If they were rechargeable via USB you could guarantee that 90% of people would just leave them plugged in all the time. So it would be extra expense for Apple, and I think that the majority of consumers are happy with mice that don't mean you have to keep a stock of spare batteries in the computer desk.
  • I wonder if Taco actually bought his mouse through them to show his support, or if he goes to ... We need more sousveillance!!
  • I'm still on my good ol' Logitech serial mouse. Sadly, this thing is more reliable then any other mouse i've come in contact with, as they have resulted in either breaking, or they died out on me while playing Age of Empires.

    You woudn't belive how much it sucked sending in a huge horse archer army against someone online and then having your mouse die out on you.
  • The Cordless Mouseman Optical(that mr. Taco is using on his desktop..) arent great for gaming, because it(like all other cordlesses) sometimes have problems when you get REALLY "twitchy"(when u make 200 differnt moves in 5sec. Tonyhawk is a really twitchy game.. so is counterstrike(which might be a better example since were talking mice here :)) in a game.

    I have a Cordless Mouseman Optical, but Since ive got my USB Optical Wheelmouse (also logitech). It have been pluged into my game maschine, since the USB still are more reliable.. BUT, i must say, Ive found the Logitec cordless Mouseman Optical is one of the most stable cordless ive have tried yet. I also own a MS Cordless and the logitec is, in my experice, WAY more stable.. But MS knows this i think, they warn you on the mouses product page: MS productpage [microsoft.com] , Wireless freedom, Microsoft reliability LMAO ;O)

    BUT, dear mr. Tacodude.. Ur are rich and everything, go get the new Mouseman Dual Optical, it has a tail(hence stable in games), and two optic eyes(hence 1600DPI res).. Havent tried one yet.. but they should be GREAT for gaming.. :O)

  • Focus, people! :-) (Score:5, Insightful)

    by seldolivaw ( 179178 ) <me@seldo.DALIcom minus painter> on Saturday February 16, 2002 @01:20PM (#3018453) Homepage
    Taco posts a story about a new mouse, and includes a one-line comment mentioning MS Mice. Result: a thread of replies almost entirely about Microsoft mice, Microsoft hardware, and MS's business practices. And 3 about the actual mouse :-)
    • Well, Taco has a good point though!

      I hate Microsoft with a passion. I run Linux.

      However, I have a Microsoft mouse, and I have to admit it's a fine mouse! It's well designed, comfrotable, reliable, never sticks or anything.

      Windows is of course pure shit.
  • Anyone else notice that Microsoft's best (or perhaps, only decent) products are their hardware offerings? It's amazing what they can offer when they outsource most of the design and manufacturing to someone that knows what they're doing. Microsoft I/O gizmos and the XBox show that Microsoft does know how to assemble a team that is not afriad to hire outsiders to design and build a good product.

    Now if only their Windows versions of Office took some cues from the Mac versions and became less of a disk/ram/cpu hog.

    Off to download the latest 18 MB security service pack for Outlook... man am I glad I only own one Windows PC...
  • ...I find this stuff funny. From the site linked:

    Warning: Can't create a new thread (errno 11). If you are not out of available memory, you can consult the manual for a possible OS-dependent bug in /home/sites/site84/web/class_db.php on line 7

    Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Can't create a new thread (errno 11). If you are not out of available memory, you can consult the manual for a possible OS-dependent bug in /home/sites/site84/web/class_db.php on line 7

    ERROR: Unable to connect to database.


    :-) Boom goes the box.
  • I've tried every Apple mouse, two Logitech (one regular non-optical and one wireless optical), and a slew of others.

    Nothing had impressed me more than the Optical Intellimouse Explorer until I tried the Wireless Optical Intellimouse Explorer. It tracks even smoother than the wired version, looks great, and doesn't light up the bathe room in a red glow when I turn off the light. The driver software (on Mac) is well designed, unobtrusive, and even tells you when the battery is low.

    Then there is support: when my original Intellimouse died (after 2 years, not under warranty), I read them the serial number off the bottom, gave them my address, and they shipped me a replacement _overnight_, at no cost. When I say overnight, I mean I called at 9 PM and got it before noon the next day. I mail order lots of stuff, and have only seen this kind of performance from Outpost.com.

    I am anti-microsoft-pro-little-guy whenever I can be, but Microsoft has my money when it comes to mice.

  • The Mouse (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 90XDoubleSide ( 522791 ) <ninetyxdoublesid ... minus herbivore> on Saturday February 16, 2002 @02:12PM (#3018649)
    Since i haven't seen a single post that was on topic, i'd like to actually talk about the mouse.

    Obviously I haven't used one, but I don't see what problem they're trying to solve with this leaning instead of clicking thing... it seems to me that that would be even worse for your wrist after repetitive use, and judging from the other mice on the companies website, they're not exactly masters of ergonomics or industrial design.

    This does bring up a question I've wondered about, though; if Apple offers their own 2-button scroll wheel mouse, what will it look like. The last time we heard rumors that they were designing one was back during the days of their hockey-puck mouse, so the mouse would have had the fruit and ice design scheme. I must say Apple's current no button clickable mouse is beautiful, even though I use my Logitech Cordless Optical Mouse most of the time, I keep it on my desk for the prettiness factor (the Logitech isn't bad though, it almost perfectly matches the colors of a graphite G4 tower, it just can't hold a candle to a translucent black oval floating above your desk ;).

    Of course, there's no guarantee Apple will ever make a two-button mouse, but I don't think you can rule out the possibility that they might start at least including them with Power Macs. Apple has admitted that many of their customers need the extra button and scroll wheel, particularly gamers; when Apple furnished Power Macs for QuakeCon, they came with 3rd party two button mice, and you'll wonder how you ever used the Mac OS X Finder with a one-button mouse once you switch.

    So I think there is plenty of motivation, although they would probably keep the present mouse on the iMacs (the iMacs now actually use a special mouse with a white bubble instead of a black one, ditto for the keyboard). So my question is what would it look like? Hopefully nothing like this one from Green, in form or function, but how do you make a mouse as stunning as the current one with buttons and a scroll wheel breaking up the design? Would be a very different design, but the new towers might see a very new design sometime soon as well, and they might take that opportunity to switch keyboard and mouse designs ont the pro products as well, after all, is Apple going to use the same style they've had since the G3 when they start making 5th gen towers.

  • Here's the article for those who can't reach it. Sorry for the freakin' filler, I hate the lameness filter.

    Introduction (stupid filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    Personally I never heard of the company "Green" [greenworld.net] before. Did you? Anyway, they seem to have a wide range of rather interesting products. Today we take a look at two of them; The Crystal Optical Mouse and the Finger Mouse.

    (image of packaging) [heatseekerz.net] (filler, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    These products are provided by Colorcase.be [yucom.be].

    Crystal Optical Mouse (stupid filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    Let's take a closer look at the Crystal Optical Mouse.

    As we all know, most mice come with 2 or 3 buttons and a scroll wheel. Well, times change :). Green decided to try something new and they developed a buttonless mouse.

    How does it work? The top part of the mouse is one shell. You have to move the shell to the right or the left to click. Here's a picture to clear it up:

    (image of mouse, (c) Green) [heatseekerz.net]

    Specs Crystal Optical (stupid filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    Colorcase.be has this mouse in two different colors; black and purple. I have to warn you though, the black one isn't really black. It's rather "smoked", which is even sweeter :).

    (image of both mice next to each other) [heatseekerz.net] (filler, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    Specs (filler, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    • 400 - 1500 dpi optical sensors (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    • Scroll wheel (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    • Flashy design (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    • USB connector (ps2 converter-piece included!)
    • A lighting LED (filler, filler, filler, filler)

    Experience Crystal Optical (stupid filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    When I first started to use this mouse it felt really weird. Especially because you have to swing the mouse to the left and the right to click. After using it for a couple of hours it was a piece of cake. It's a great mouse, but defenitly not suited for a real gamer. It takes to much time to click and you can't right click and left click at the same time. So if you work in an office all day and you want to try something new, try this mouse. If you are a hardcore gamer; leave it alone.

    (image showing the smoked/transparant effect) [heatseekerz.net] (filler, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)
    (image of above but in the dark) [heatseekerz.net] (filler, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    What about the ergonomics? Well, to be honest, in the beginning this mouse is a little hard on you wrist. But when you get used to it that problem will not occure again!

    Finger Mouse (stupid filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    This mouse (if you can call it a mouse) was especially developed for powerpoint presentation. With a normal mouse or trackball it's rather hard, when making a presentation, to switch between screens. Thanks to this innovative mouse you can say goodbye to that problem.

    (image of the finger mouse) [heatseekerz.net] (filler, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    Specs Finger Mouse (stupid filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    Let's see what this little mouse has to offer.

    Specs: (filler, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    • For notebook users (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    • For children's tutorial operations (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    • Special Elegant design (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    • Wrist and finger muscle harmless design (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    • A lighting LED when power by computer (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    • Cursor movement is activated by thumb (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    • USB/PS2 (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    • Measurements: L x H x H= 98 x 45 x 75mm (filler, filler, filler, filler)
    (image of mouse) [heatseekerz.net] (filler, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    As you can see by the specification list, the main purpose of the Finger Mouse is to make presentations and laptop use easier. But if you have a laptop I wouldn't recommend this mouse. This mouse is a really awesome sollution for people who have to make a lot of presentations!

    Here's how to hold it:

    (image of mouse being held) [heatseekerz.net] (filler, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    Conclusion (stupid filler, filler, filler, filler, filler)

    Crystal Optical Mouse:

    This mouse performs very well and looks really sweet. It costs 48, that's about 52USD, but it's sure worth the money. I would recommend it to anyone who has to work with a PC whole day, because it is fun to use. But to all gamers, stay away from this mouse :).

    Finger Mouse:

    This mouse is perfect for Powerpoint presentations. But that's its only purpose, don't try to use it for something else. This mouse is available for 40EUR, about 43USD.

    You can download additional drivers for the Crystal Optical Mouse here [greenworld.net].

  • If I could find a wireless optical three button mouse without that silly scroll wheel, I'd buy it in an instant. Unfortunately, since scroll wheels for some reason are becoming seen as "necessary" on a mouse nowadays, I suspect I'll never see such a combination.

    Heck, even if it wasn't optical I'd be happy.

  • Many readers have wrote comments to the effect of their Microsoft optical mouse dying and them getting a free replacement from MS with just a phone call.

    These are not isolated incidents.

    Early versions of MS's optical mice have an exceptionally weak spot in what is otherwise a finely engineered product, which is where the cord enters the mouse itself. The wiring there can easily break, and indeed does also frequently occur on non-Microsoft mice.

    MS is aware of this problem. It is not acknowledged to be a systematic problem, and they handle the replacement policy very well, as some here have noted. But it is still a problem with the earlier versions of MS optical mice.

    Current versions of these excellent mice seem to have that connection point reinforced.
  • You never read the quote by himself saying that MS isn't and never would be a hardware company???

    I read it and as they aren't I don't buy stuff that doesn't exist... Remember He never lies!

    Logitech make very nice mice and on my Vaio I have a very small Dexxa wheel mouse. But my next mouse will be a Wacom Graphire.
  • I purchased a mouseman wheel optical [exhardware.com] when they first came out a couple of years ago. I've been very pleased with this mouse. It has 4 buttons + wheel, which is surely enough for anyone. The design is very comfortable, plus if you look at Intellimouse Explorer [microsoft.com] it appears to be very similar in design to the mouseman. Another cool feature of the mouseman, is the blue LED that is USB powered. It looks really cool in the dark too. I've looked at the newer wireless mice, but I have no reason to go wireless plus it isn't the same form factor as the mouseman wheel.
  • I have to give a big thumbs up to buttonless mice. I've been fighting an RSI in my mouse hand for a couple of years. Since I've switched to a buttonless mouse it has cleared up entirely. I highly recommend anyone with mouse hand problems try one.

    It is an apple mouse. You don't miss the buttons under Mac OS, I run about half the time in X and I've just learned to use the extra modifier keys to get the other buttons. It becomes automatic after a day.

    (Not that I'm a clicking fiend, the injury probably originated while playing a string of shows with a bluegrass band. 240 notes/minute, 80/finger/minute on the right hand for three hours a day is a lot of finger pulling for a bass player. I had to stop doing that, but the hand didn't heal until I switched mice.)
  • (I don't work for logitech.)

    I've been using it for almost a year now (bought it when it came out). It is wonderful. I've been playing all kinds of games with it, tried my friend's Razor Boomslang, this is definitely better. I like the shape, although I suspect some of the bigger mice (like MS Optical) may be more comfortable for the hand. Batteries work for two or three months (I use rechargeable so it's more like a month and then I spend 5 seconds replacing them with charged ones). Doesn't need a pad, doesn't collect residue like ball mice. Windows detects it as a standard HID device, so no drivers needed. Not bad at all, I say it's definitely worth the money.
  • Here's a really useful buttonless mouse, the Stupidamouse [dumbentia.com].

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