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Technology

The Timex Speedpass Watch 324

Posted by chrisd from the i-prefer-speed-cash dept.
RedWolves2 writes "Timex Corporation is developing a watch which incorporates Speedpass technology embedded into it. McDonalds has also partnered with Speedpass with 400 stores in the Chicago area that accept speedpass. Now you can order a value meal like this "You will serve me a Big Mac Meal with a Coke!" (While waving your hand like a Jedi Knight using the Jedi Mind trick)."
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The Timex Speedpass Watch More

The Timex Speedpass Watch

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  • I do that anyway.. :) (Score:5, Funny)

    by minus23 ( 250338 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @04:45AM (#3117182)
    "You will serve me a Big Mac Meal with a Coke!" (While waving your hand like a Jedi Knight using the Jedi Mind trick)."
    How is this different than what I do already?

  • Free gas!! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by itsnotme ( 20905 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @04:47AM (#3117184) Homepage
    Heh, user puts on speedpass watch and forgets he/she's wearing it and at a visit to a speedpass supported gas station, walks a wee bit too close to the pumps...

    FREE GASOLINE! just not for YOU!

    Cant imagine the MULTIPLE ways this watch could get abused.. it hooks up to your creditcard so hell, I'd rather have my speedpass on a seperate thing to make SURE nothing gets charged to it by accident!

    • Re:Free gas!! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by darkov ( 261309 )
      Another scary thing would be if you lost this thing. Where I live there are consumer credit laws which basically say if there is any fraud, the consumer is not liable. This is for all electronic banking credit and debit cards. Now I bet that this dongle would leave you high and dry when some idiot went crazy buying fuel and burgers on your tab.

      • Ahh, a lost or stolen watch! Always thinking ahead!

        But technology leaps ahead constantly. Look for other innovations!

        Step 2. The watch cannot be taken off because it is like a shackle.

        Step 3. Thieves start stealing not just the watch, but the whole person or, in some cases, just the arm that was chopped off with a machete!

      • Now I bet that this dongle would leave you high and dry when some idiot went crazy buying fuel and burgers on your tab.
        Insightful? More like clueless. Exxon/Mobil makes it quite clear that you're protected from unauthorized usage. As for "walking a wee bit too close to the pumps", you'd have to be staggering around the pumps. The dongle version of the Speedpass needs to be right up against the sensor to work, so inadvertantly activating it isn't likely, and : can't see them giving this watch version more than a couple inces in range.

    • Re:Free gas!! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by guttentag ( 313541 )
      I once posed a similar question to a marketing droid who was advocating technology that "relieves" you of the "burden" of having to enter your credit card number when buying things online. I agree with you -- when I make a purchase, I want it to be a conscious decision.

      He insisted that people (who are idiots, of course) value convenience over security. They want to be able to buy without giving a conscious thought to their purchases... and guess what? That just happens to be what corporate America wants too! You make so many mindless little purchases in a day, waving your arms about and clicking around the Web, you don't know what you bought.

      The beauty of the system is that it takes far more effort to dispute/return a purchase than it took to make the purchase, so for most people it's just not worth their time. Meanwhile, the corporate fat cats rake in the dough.

      The article says watches with this technology will only cost a few dollars more than watches without it. If it was really in the customer's best interest and not the corporation's, they would be charging $25 to $50 more for these watches. They would probably not have raised the price at all, but for $5 more people will feel like they're getting the "top of the line" model and be enticed to try the technology. I know I won't be buying one... for the consumer's sake, I hope it's discovered that this technology causes cancer or something.

    • Re:Free gas!! (Score:2, Informative)

      by pinkUZI ( 515787 )
      Heh, user puts on speedpass watch and forgets he/she's wearing it and at a visit to a speedpass supported gas station, walks a wee bit too close to the pumps...

      Actually I've been using the Speedpass technology for some time now and, as far as I can see there are many more advantages than disadvantages.
      First of all, most of the reasons not to use the speedpass are some what mythical. Take, for example, the one cited above. You can only pump gas while in the general vicinity of the pump. In other words, if you walk a wee bit too close to the pumps they will be active for the 2 seconds you are directly in front of them and no longer active when you walk away.

      The other great thing that has been mentioned in some of the posts as a disadvantage is that it is attached to your credit card and it doesn't require a pin/signature. Remember you have ZERO liability for any fraudulent activity that ends up on your credit card. (I know that in actuality there is some minimal legal liability, but here are links from Visa [visa.com] and Mastercard [mastercard.com] guaranteeing cardholders will have no liability.)

      All things considered, I think its pretty cool technology. Like anything there are some risks, but, as far as I can tell, all of these are taken by the big credit card companies leaving you with all the benefits and none of the liability.
    • Heh, user puts on speedpass watch and forgets he/she's wearing it and at a visit to a speedpass supported gas station, walks a wee bit too close to the pumps...

      FREE GASOLINE! just not for YOU!

      Amusing. :)

      Although, for what it's worth - the speedpass needs to be held within a couple inches of the sensor. It's not all as fun as that.

      Also, so far as I know, the only places using Speedpass are gas stations and McDonald's, where you're not likely to rack up a huge bill in a short period with a stolen pass, and Speedpass covers the loss if a unit is stolen, so long as you report it with a reasonable timeframe. And it doesn't transmit your credit card number, but rather an index which is used by a secure system to match the pass to a card. So a stolen/lost pass doesn't even compromise your credit card.

    • I assume it's related to the technology that we have at my college. We just wave our student ID in front of this reader and it unlocks the door. And if the speedpass technology is related to our cards, then I absolutely don't trust it. Why? This is a small college in Wisconsin. When I visited UC-Berkeley in CA, I accidentally discovered when walking past the doors that my student ID opened any dorm on the Berkeley campus. Students at Berkeley even have to use keys to get in the buildings (I think the reader was for the disabled), but I (and every person at my WI college) have a skeleton key to the whole place!

      Plus it makes the door open automatically, while the real students have to pull it open themselves ;]

      But seriously, why should I trust the speedpass et al to be any different?

      mark

    • Re:Free gas!! (Score:3, Interesting)

      by dozing ( 111230 )
      Even worse. What happens when some leete dude (forgive my inability to spell it correctly) places a sniffer box next the the gas pump and grabs all the info from the people that have paid with their watch. Could he then use this to make his own? Or is it encrypted in such a way to make this (nearly) impossibly? If it is encrypted is it better than WEP encryption?
    • Maybe the pocket watch will make a come-back. You'd have to fetch it out and pop it open before paying for anything.

  • WOAH...BFA? (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by keepper ( 24317 )


    Is this the first article with a BFA?

    (Big F**cking Ad)?

    Well, as long as it brings revenue is not so bad..
    but ona side note.. it really did make me read the damn thing... bastard marketeers.. lol

  • how embaressing (Score:5, Funny)

    by spookysuicide ( 560912 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @04:48AM (#3117189) Homepage
    when your watch gets "declined" at the line at mcdonalds. sad, staring at those fries, quietly asking the 15 year old in the yelow visor if you can just wave it one more time.
    • Shouldn't have loaded that watch with republican credits, they're not worth anything in this universe.

  • Why would you bother? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by darkov ( 261309 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @04:49AM (#3117190)
    Why would anyone use this technology when micropayments and the like can be done using your mobile phone using reverse billing now (you punch in a code to your mobile and an amount gets added to your phone account) and in the future there is bluetooth.

    This proprietary, system will shortly float off into oblivion like all the rest.
    • Why would anyone use this technology when micropayments and the like can be done using your mobile phone

      Because, like it or not, mobile phones are far from having ubiqituous coverage. Digital mobile phones doubly so. The infrastructure simply isn't there yet. Remember, not all of the US (or Europe) live in cities, or even near cities.

      Phone lines, however, are suprisingly ubiquitous.

  • Well.. I saw a movie the other day (70s movie) where a guy goes to McDonalds and gets served in an instant. Wow. That's never happened to me. The movie was some Time Machine thing with the main characters HG Wells and Jack the Ripper. Can't remember the title.

    Does the watch incorporate a timer between the time I pay and the time I get served, and start beeping (indicating I will get my meal free, and automatically reversing the transaction) when the doofus behind the counter still hasn't served me my McChicken and Fries within the time limit I specify?

  • Cool except... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by kwishot ( 453761 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @04:50AM (#3117194)
    Wouldn't these things be pretty prone to EMI?
    Also.... I'm not sure if this is an issue, but what if it runs out of batteries?
    Or... even better yet... what if someone makes a "speedpass scanner" and walks around a mall for an afternoon, leeching from everyone closeby.

    Seems pretty exploitable...anyone have experience with these? I would imagine that having these more widespread would open them up to more problems.

    -kwishot

    • Re:Cool except... (Score:2, Informative)

      by hcdejong ( 561314 )

      Shell has used this technology for a while now (at least a year) with its "Easypay" system. I haven't seen any fraud stories in the media yet. It uses a PIN number, so an RF intercept alone isn't going to be enough to duplicate a key. Also, its range is only about 10cm.

      Battery life is not an issue. The cards seem to be passive, and are powered by an EM field that's generated by te card reader.

    • exploitable (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Credit cards also seemed pretty exploitable when they were invented. Hey, I bet personal cheques seemed so too. And to be fair, these things are exploited, but, people will always find a way to thieve regardless of the technology. Perhaps there is some aspect in which this technology is actually safer than plastic cards... Read the other comments for info about its security features... Hmm...
    • I dont see why you couldnt clone these things....

      There was a recent spate in the UK with abuse of "remote control watches". Basically, these watches let you beam in the signal form your remote control for the TV or whatever. The watch then remebers this signal and you can then use the watch as a remote control. However, some cars which use IR keys were susceptible to this....

      Theif goes to car showroom, asks to take car in foyer out for a drive. Surreptisously beams IR signal from key into watch. Hey presto - come back later and drives offf with car.

      To be honest, I dont see how this differs from cloning credit cards. I know a few people who have been to dosgy restaraunts in Easter Europe (honestly, they were restaurants!). Card got swiped twice when they payed. Credit card bill shows prolific activity in the balkans.....

      Whatever monetary system you use, there will allways be fraud. Like whatever media you devise, it will allways be used for pr0n. Human nature, I guess.....

    • Re:Cool except... (Score:2, Informative)

      by phayes ( 202222 )
      It doesn't use batteries.

      It's just another version of the no-contact access badges I uses at work. There are only two main components. An antenna/induction loop + a chip. The detector has a charged loop that generates a magnetic field. When passing the card/speedpass within a certain radius of the detector, an inducted current strong enough for the chip to be powered will be generated by the antenna in the card/speedpass. The card/speedpass chip then uses the antenna to generate a coded radio pulse. This pulse is then read by the detector and used to identify the sendor.

      As an access key, this system works great. It's cheap & simple, as the intelligence is in the software used to manage the card ID's, not in the cards. For example; if I lose my key, only MY key needs to be canceled. As all the detectors are set at pocket level, I don't even need to have a hand free to open doors.

      The only minor bug I've encountered is that you cannot have two cards in the same pocket. They both wake up & send their signal pulse at the same time which corrupts both pulses.

      However, as a means to control acces to a credit card, this system really sucks as there is NO AUTHENTIFICATION. All you need is a detector to be able to stealthily read anyones ID. The owner of the speedpass will never even know that the ID has been stolen, after all it never left his pocket/wrist!

      Coming up with a device able to resend the purloined ID is within the means of most EE grad students, so I predict that abuse of this system in the very near future.

      I certainly won't be using one.

  • So? (Score:4, Informative)

    by CaptainZapp ( 182233 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @04:50AM (#3117195) Homepage
    Maybe I'm a tad dim tody, but what else is new? Swatch [swatch.com] released the Swatch Access about 5 years ago.

    It is a little larger then a normal Swatch and you can load it at umpteen or so ski resorts, where it can be used instead of a normal ski pass.

  • When the encoding is hacked... and we all have readers, and transmitters.... I could grab codes just by shacking hands with someone. This very tech could change our whole social customs when it is taught to kids, "Don't shake hands with someone unless you know them."

  • interception... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by thebigbadme ( 194140 )
    I'm not to sure on the exact specifications of the speedpass system, but it would seem to me that anything that can transmit a signal to another unit (the reader) would also, in theory, be able to transmit the signal to an interceptor. It's only a matter of time before someone thinks up a way in which to pick up the speedpass xfers and reprogram/program 'new' ones with the information from others. These watches would mean that people could snipe the information in other locations (the office... or any other place someone might wear a watch, but normally not have their speedpass button available) and not just at gas stations.
    Anyone?

  • *wave* (Score:4, Funny)

    by ZaneMcAuley ( 266747 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @04:53AM (#3117205) Homepage Journal
    "These are not the fries you are looking for"

  • I cant remember the exact quote but it oges something like this

    because banks wanted to be secure the invented teller machines that first of all asked for a pin then took a sample of blood and scrapped skin from the back of your neck for DNA testing ending with some very personal questions about you and your family ....

    people couldnt take it an longer so they invented the identyChip... to answer all the DNA and biometric tests and be rid of personal questions

    in the end people stole the identyChips and commited faud as they had before ....

    nice Idea but should this not be Done with something standard and low power like Bluetooth connect it up to a phone that has your equivlent IdentyChip on it

    you could even order ahead through your phone and then when you got to Macky Dees(or any other shop where ques are an issue like Coffe shops and theaters) you have your order ready !

    sort it out people

    regards

    john jones

    • I don't see how this is offtopic.

      You've got a point - Bluetooth would make a much better standard for something like this. Not only is it not proprietary (therefore giving it a greater chance of catching on because of multiple manufacturers), but it is a relatively open protocol, which means bugs or security flaws will be noticed and probably be repairable.

  • Destroys AM Radio usage! Should ban these! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Ever try to tune in an AM radio in a car at a Mobile Gas station that employs Speedpass.

    At stations sporting three rows of pumps all equipped with these infernal electro-magnetic emmision Fast Pass coils so much noise is broadcast that AM Radio becomes pure noise.

    This is true even on good radios with all digital modern tuning.

    Its disgusting. This crap should all be made illegal.

    I have a RIGHT to receive radio without deliberate interference from abusive technologies that violate my space.

    I hope people will band together to petition against these eternally broadcasting 24 hours a day illegal radio emmitters... also known as "Fast Pass sensor equipment"

    Arrrrrghhhh!

    I love AM talk radio... I can listen to CLEVELAND and NASHVILLE and MONTREAL clearly at night in boston suburbs in my car.

    But nothing at all comes in once I drive too close to Fast Pass equipment. I understand radiation should diminish at R^3 (cube root) but geeeez these fast pass things seem more insidious and powerful than you think.

    The most insidious and EVIL pulse reader passivly scans the ROM chips in 2001 tires... and does it at the us-canadian borders (soon or already).

    The codes exist for product control and are readable from many feet from the tires, but the US gov uses them because Liscense plates are too easy to swap-steal-create.

    And wait till they start using passive pulses to read the sub-grain-of-rice bio id rom implated originally in dogs but soon applicable for enemies of the US federal governement on probation.

    Its only a few years away... just you wait.

    We need to closely control this slippery slope of eroding rights and spying on our lives and destruction of our AM radio air space.

  • If this is stolen.... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kwishot ( 453761 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @05:04AM (#3117228)
    If one of these things ever gets stolen, there is literally no way to trace where it is.
    No signatures... nothing.
    With a credit card there are a few more layers of security.

    First, it needs to be swiped (can't be read from a distance...which can be potentially bad)
    Second, you need to sign for it
    Third, many credit cards have the option of a picture...

    Pretty scary.

    -kwishot

    • Re:If this is stolen.... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @08:11AM (#3117633) Homepage
      and the Dallas Semiconductor iButton [ibutton.com] solves all these troubles. holding 64K of internal storage plus a unique serial number can hold your photo and signature, and whatever other info you want. Plus it's more durable than the speedpass, cannot be read without direct contact and you can get them on fossil watches or any other watch on the planet with the watch-band holder. (I prefer my ring)

      The coolest part of the iButton is that the reader costs $15.00 at the most expensive and $1.00 in bulk for OEM's. a speedpass reader is more expensive than a smartcard reader.

      if Dallas Semiconductors would just push the iButton as hard as their competition pushes the junk products like the speedpass it would take off fast.
      • The coolest part of the iButton is that the reader costs $15.00 at the most expensive and $1.00 in bulk for OEM's. a speedpass reader is more expensive than a smartcard reader.

        Reader expense is a small part of the expense of a total solution. If you look at this page [ibutton.com] you will see that the buttons themselves are more expensive than the readers. Also the buttons are much more expensive than comparable smart cards. I can buy Java Card Open Platform [ibm.com] cards for $2.86 and there are 16 kbyte (not kbits as the iButton measures things) MFC cards for less than $1. If you are doing a deployment the cost of the cards will dwarf the cost of readers.

        (I prefer my ring)

        What do you use it for? Do you wear it all the time?

        Disclaimer: I work for IBM so I might be biased.

        • What do you use it for? Do you wear it all the time?


          I use it to open my house door (lock is ibutton controlled, got ot from ibutton.com) log into my computer, hold and log into every website I visit... (Keeps me from using the same password for every site..Nice) I also have in it my bank account numbers, a photo of my daughter, and a few login-password combinations for work. If I bought one it would also start my Harley motorcycle (Yes, ibutton starting/access is available on a harley-davidson motorcycle, and can start a vehicle if it is retrofitted... having my home ibutton controlled for door unlocking is great. I have about 5 ibuttons that are sitting in a drawer.. If I have to give someone access to the house when I am not there I program the system to only accept that iButton for that date-range (or one time use!) that way if the ibutton doesnt get back to me, they are still locked out.

          The point is, try doing all of that with a smartcard on a home-engineer/hacker budget.. I spent less than $150.00 to do the whole house door access thing, including the electric strikes. (surplus from all-electronics)

          where can I get weatherproof smartcard readers? ones that can handle being frozen, water inside them and then freezing, salt, windblown snow and sand into them, etc.. you cant. I can hit my ibutton reader that is outside the door with a hammer as hard as I can and it still works.. (Hell I can hit an ibutton with a hammer hard and it still works.) and cince the ibutton is on my finger it's more convienent, almost never get's forgotten, and if I have a arm full of groceries I dont have to dig it out of my pocket... just a semi-accurate hit to the reader and bzzt the door opens...

    • If you read the Exxon and Mobil's contracts with these systems, they will pay for all stolen charges should the speedpass be stolen.
    • At my local drug store, they don't bother to ask for a signature for purchases under $10. I was told it was for convience. Whatever. Of course, they never checked the signature with my driver's license or even the back of the credit card so I could sign pretty much any way I wanted to.

      Point of that rambling, is there isn't anything more secure about using a credit card at the gas pump (or this particular store) than a speed pass. In my case, showing up at the gas station means wearing full motorcycle gear and the speed pass I attaced to my jacket sleeve saves me about a minute of fussing with zippers and gloves and other saftey gear.

    • Re:If this is stolen.... (Score:5, Informative)

      by Darkstar9969 ( 516815 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @09:41AM (#3118203)
      I am a Speedpass user in the Chicago area.

      Firstly, the Speedpass needs to be pretty close to the speedpass readers to get your "secret speedpass code". (within a foot or so)

      Secondly, McDonalds and Walgreens don't turn their readers on until you tell them you are using Speedpass. You can't just walk past one and have it ring up someone's happy meal.
      (The readers are also in Mobil gas stations but are too high up on the pump to be read accidentally)

      As to the stolen point kwishot makes, yes it would suck if my speedpass got stolen, but it's attached to my car keys. If it got stolen I'd notice. They'd have to take half of my keychain to get it. I agree it IS a bit less secure than a credit card but somebody could smash my car window and get my Ipass and cruise the tollway free and clear until I noticed the gaping hole in my windshield...

      modmemodmemodmemodme-thankyoupleasedrivethrough

  • No authentifacation? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by phayes ( 202222 )
    From what I can see from the speedpass website there is no authentification to verify that the possesor of the speedpass is really the owner. A speedpass is the electronic equivalent of a blank cashiers check to my bank account, so if I lose a speedpass I lose the equivalent of my credit card plus my pin code! Am I willing to risk this just so I can wave my wrist/keys without having to type a PIN? NO! I may be lazy, but not stupid.
    • Actually, if you lose it or it gets stolen, you can call up the speedpass place and report it as stolen and the ID inside the speedpass you had will be rendered invalid and you can get a new one and so on..

  • How about making the speedpass standard available for gas first?

    In san diego there's not a single gas station that will accept speedpass.

    I'm sick of things being hyped as new revolutionary and totally cool without seeing it become actually popular by public demand.

    If you spend all your money funding new instances of your product standard before it becomes a standard you're in for a reality check, not a paycheck.

    These people need to get out in the real world and see what it's like, not take the word of the company marketing and selling the products.
  • ...you'll not only get a charge report but also a calories/sodium/fat report. Your doctor will be automatically alerted if your visit frequency exceeds 5/day or if you're likely to get RSI (aka tennis elbow or nowadays JWS (jedi wave syndrome). Your undertaker will be informed when he has to rent a crane. You mom will know you already had your share of of caffeine when you show up that sunday for coffe and cookies.
    The funny thing is the same people start hyperventilating when something about an ID card is pondered upon...

  • Get McDonalds to Accept CASH (2 dollar bills)first (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    FastPass! Dont make me laugh. Fast food restaurants still have a hard time accepting CASH. Get McDonalds to Accept CASH (2 dollar bills) first.

    Yup you heard me... for laughs I carry around 2 dollar bills with me to cause trouble at institutional minded stores and fast food empires that lack places to tuck away Half dollars, susan B coins, 2 dollar bills, and golden dollar coins. I like to force 2 dollar bills on rigid institutions.

    But that is not all I do, I act like I am low on coins, hunting my pockets, then finally producing a 2 dollar bill or two to complete a purchase, avertIng my gaze "nervously".

    I act as if it is a non-valid note.

    Guess what? Innercity dwelling teen females usually have to go get the manager to see if such as thing (a US 2 dollar bill) is legal tender and truly act as if they have a counterfeitter standing before them.

    Sometimes it causes quit a stir.

    I tried using a 50 dollar bill on a 37 dollar purchase at an Arbys and had to leave my comapanys order because they refused to accept the 50 dollar bill as strict corporate policy.

    Under US law all these things are valid for public and private debt so long as no more than 25 of the same coin denomination is used without mutual acceptance.

    Only one business has a US federal government exception : Federal Express.

    Federal Express in Los Angeles and in autonomous cities in california such as Pasadena are premitted at the FBI's insistence to deny accepting any US currency at their stores and insist on debit and credit cards only.

    Other Than Federal Express, everyone else has to accept Federal Reserve notes.... but just try to get them to take a 2 dollar bill.

    I think we should start with basics before getting them to use fraud prone SpeedPass.

  • This system has existed for 15 years in Norway (Score:4, Interesting)

    by nordicfrost ( 118437 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @05:36AM (#3117300)
    Yup, 15 years. We have used the "Køfri" (English: No Line) system for paying road toll. The difference lies in the size of the transponder, since the Køfri system is designed to be placed on the front view window of your car. As mentioned earlier, the SkiPass system from SkiData (Switzerland) have also used this system. Now, almost all sking hills use cards with inductive radio systems. The Køfri system was developed in the University of Trondheim.


    Actually, that system was very advanced for its time. If you passed the toll station on the Køfri area without a chip in your window, two cameras digitally photograhped your license plate in normal and infrared light. Pictures were stored on MO media for evidence, and the system could react on cars passing as fast as 490 km/h.

    • The US has had an RF-based system for paying road toll for many years too (the city I lived in has used such a system for about 10 years, but I know it's been around longer than that). This article isn't about RF tags in general--it's that Timex is putting one in a wristwatch. (Although, according to another post here, that's not a new development either).
  • A lot of people posting here seem to be worried about interception of credit card/debit info -- as though Speedpass watches would simply beam out your account number into the open, where anyone with a scanner could pick up your info. Problems like this are easily solved with cryptography -- choose your favorite authentication protocol. Instead of sensitive account data, the watches more likely beam out a unique identification number linked to a public key directory (for authentication) and credit/debit card numbers.

    Of course, none of this matters if your entire watch gets stolen, which is a far more serious security matter.

    Cheers,
    IT

    • Re:Security/Encryption (Score:2, Insightful)

      by foofboy ( 7823 )
      > unique identification number linked to a public key directory (for authentication) and credit/debit card numbers.

      It doesn't matter if someone captures your credit card number. They only need to capture your "speedpass number", which they can use at McDonalds to purchase fries on your dime. This is like having a pin to protect your password (you don't have to reveal your password, just use the pin), and writing that pin in large characters on your shirt for anyone to read. It adds a layer of complexity, but doesn't add any security.

      A cryptographic solution might be to have someone beam a random number to the speedpass, encrypted with your speedpass public key, and having the speedpass beam back the decrypted random number. But that sort of thing can get expensive.
  • ...this is just an intermediate step; why not cut out the middlestep and just implant the damn thing in your wrist now? And then have the McDonald's logo tattoted on.

    As they say, marketing is all about perception; if you commit a crime, you wear one of these and they call it a monitoring bracelet; I can't wate to hear what they call it ("McTracker") to get McCustomers to line of for them.

    Actually, I'm not totaly opposed to the idea of an implanted chip, as long as it isn't the counter crew at McD's who have to insert it!
  • Why yes, Mr. Beast [e-sheep.com], I'd be glad to accept your mark! What? You say you want me to bow down before your graven image? Oh, 'tis not a problem at all!

  • The new wave of Drive Thru (Score:4, Funny)

    by Elflord1999 ( 465328 ) <.elflord. .at. .psychoses.org.> on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @06:41AM (#3117422)
    'This is not the Happy Meal I ordered'
    'This is not the Happy Meal you ordered!'
    'You will make me a Cheeseburger Happy Meal'
    'We will make you a Cheeseburger Happy Meal!'
    'You will not forget the toy'
    'We will not forget the toy!'

    The Jedi Mind Trick surely could work wonders at McDonalds...unfortunately, at Wendy's they employ mainly Hutts.

  • They don't have batteries... (Score:4, Informative)

    by weave ( 48069 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @06:59AM (#3117460) Journal
    I have had a Speedpass for a few years now, before Exxon bought Mobil and it was just in the rare Mobil station. They are great and can also be used to buy crap inside the store. No "minimum charge" hassles either.

    They do not have batteries. I'm not exactly sure HOW they work but I haven't seen anyone else explain it either and, you know, this is the net. The answer can't be that difficult.

    A web google search didn't turn up much besides this [neu.edu]. The Mobil Speedpass is based on Texas Instruments' Registration and Identification System (TIRIS), the first radio-frequency identification (RFID) device used for retail transactions. The system is similar to a remote control but different in that RFIDs transmit a user-specific signal, almost like a wireless PIN number.

    But a usenet search turned up a lot, like this post. [google.com] Ok, a typical device of this type is quite simple in concept. The coil with rod, acts to recieve 100Khz or so RF, which is then rectified to charge a capacitor, to power the rest. There is a small chip in there, which talks to the reader, usually by shorting out the coil for short periods of time, this causes the RF field to change, which can be read by the reader. Another way is for the chip to connect a diode to the coil, this causes the transmitter/reciever to generate a harmonic, at 2* the frequency of the exciting field, this can also be picked up.

    • Speedpasses (like RG tolltags et al) work something like crystal radios. Really, and RF device only needs power to do amplification, so if you're willing to use an earphone, you can listen to radio. (I think there's also issues of grounding...a powered radio doesn't need a ground wire.)

      The quickie here is that radio waves (this is your E&M refresher for the day) are emitted by electrons running back and forth along the length of an antenna, and any grounded conductor in a radio field will have its electrons moving in sympathy. Moving electrons are a current, and as they move from place to place they set up a voltage, so you get power off the air. A very little tiny bit of power, but power all the same. All the remains is to filter the oscillations you want to listen to (by "tuning" the radio) et voila!

      Your Usenet information about shorting the inductor, connecting a diode for a harmonic is rather fascinating, since, while using a radio field to supply the juice for a micropower chip is neat and all, tranmission is a higher power requirement. I'd always assumed it transmitted weakly on a different frequency, which was why they were such short range.

      Now my question: couldn't you harvest the juice from the air? (And I realize I'm a little off topic here.) Put up a big antenna, wire a peak detector across it, charge capacitors and dump them into your app. Would only be useful for certain applications, but there's gotta be more to using RF for power than speedpasses and paddle keys. I mean, shouldn't the power you can get be directly related to the length of your aerial? Is the ratio really so abysmal?

  • Until they implement speedpass into the sole of my shoe and make purchases with it consists of 20 mph kung-fu kicks, I won't think any of this technology is practical or an improvement.
  • I rather agree with some other posters that this system will most likely be supplanted by cell phone-based systems -- mostly because phones will probably soon include location/GPS systems. Not only will each purchase be tracked, but the location as well (E911 services) -- beyond the flip side of the privacy implications, that would make theft a bit more complicated, since the police would know the exact location of the thief. Note that since the anonyminity of cash is not existant in the system, the thief has a very small window of opportunity -- if he goes anywhere with video surveilance to use the system, between the ID of the electronic wallet, and the time stamp of the transaction, he will be recorded. If he transfers money to his own account, well... not quite the Darwin Awards but...

    Pan-handling could become a thing of the past if no one has any cash to hand out and the homeless cannot get a device to have money transferred into. Drug dealers, porn stores, bookstores, charities, political groups, gun dealers, money laundring, etc. ... what happens if anonymous cash and purchases are no longer common?

    Would it make people spend money more easily as they have to think about it less? Just wave device/push a button?
    • Yeah, but what happens to the homeless in that scenario? I'm not saying that I like being approached by the homeless, but I worry where they go to in a trend like that...

      As for porn buyers: they'll go online. Political groups can't take anonymous cash, and typcially charities can't either (they give you the option of not disclosing who you are).

      So, the illegal trades you mention are the ones that will have issues, but I suspect they'll just start using front businesses to serve as the way to run business...

    • Pan-handling could become a thing of the past if no one has any cash to hand out and the homeless cannot get a device to have money transferred into.

      Rest assured, if this Speedpass does come to pass, there will most likey be some sort of "Give Speedpasses to the homeless" charity. Much to the delight of the Speedpass company.
    • what happens if anonymous cash and purchases are no longer common?

      Well, provided there is still a LITTLE freedom in the "free market", businesses will pop up to provide a replacement.

      I just can't see "anonymous" cash transactions going away. If physical "cash" gets hard to use (e.g. a lot more automated-only services), you will see banks offering "anonymous cash accounts", where you dump money (in one form or another) into it via an ATM-like setup (or through "paypal" or something of the sort), and access it through a "bank card" that has no associated name. Somewhat like they use in some places (Washington DC uses, or used to use, this, if I recall correctly) for mass transit - you plug cash into a machine, and it spits out a paper card with a magnetic strip, encoded with the amount of money you gave it, and you use this card (which has no personally identifying information on it) to pay for bus fare, and so on.

  • Speedpass is a good idea, but all the consumer protections associated with a normal credit card DO NOT APPLY.

    According to consumer advocates (one among them being Clark Howard in Atlanta GA) SpeedPass is bad news. If your speedpass device is lost or stolen or in any way abused you are LIABLE for ALL charges. Not so with a real credit card. According to Clark on his syndicated radio show part of the SpeedPass agreement states this (I have not seen it.) A consumer called into Clarks show and relayed that they had to pay over $4000 in bogus charges for a fleet vehicle because one of his employees had lost the SpeedPass. Clark explained to him that there was nothing he could do to help, SpeedPass is built that way. It was clearly fraud but SpeedPass, again, does not offer the protections a credit card does. BE ADVISED, NOT A GOOD IDEA.

    Until these clowns step up to the plate and make SpeedPass work identically to a credit card, then forget it.
    • According to consumer advocates (one among them being Clark Howard in Atlanta GA) SpeedPass is bad news. If your speedpass device is lost or stolen or in any way abused you are LIABLE for ALL charges

      That's why, instead of the keyring transponder, I opted for the car-mounted one. Sure, I can't use it for anything but gasoline and car washes, but it's a lot harder to lose than my keyring.

      That, and unlike the suggested mounting in the back window, I instead stuck in under some trim on the hatchback---it's not even visible. And it still works fine.

      So as long as the car isn't stolen...

    • I can't speak for the example you site, but I personally know people whoi have hgad it stolen, and Exxon covered the charges. It took a couple of weeks, but the did remove the charge.
  • Meanwhile, McDonald's recently resurrected its "Eddie the Echo [prodigy.net]" ad campaign about the guy in the nerdy glasses who says everything twice and waves twice as he does so. Could he be a techno geek who would own such a watch? The character was first test-marketed in Silicon Valley [teevee.org]. Are they conditioning us to wave our Speedpass watches twice so they can double their sales?

    Funny? Insightful? Paranoid? Probably all of the above.

  • mmm, speedpass (Score:5, Funny)

    by 0x20 ( 546659 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @08:05AM (#3117615) Homepage
    Great! Now I'll be able to buy speed faster than ever! I may not even have to stop the car - just lower the window and my man can toss it in as I roll by.

    I can't wait until weedpass comes out next year!
  • This sounds great, just so long as they use it to track my every movement. I'm getting sick and tired of friends, family, and government agents not knowing where I am every second of my life.

    Thank you Speedpass!
  • You know, I think that tending to go into McDonald's and acting like that will keep you from having, shall we say, "success with the ladies." :)

    (That is, unless the ladies take SpeedPass too!)

  • in Hong Kong, they have been using the "Octopus Card" for the past 6 or 7 years. It's actually really cool because you can go to the subway station and get one. It is a standard magnetic card that you could use for subway, City buses, vending machines and I believe they had a couple of stores that had them. They started to market the Octopus watches for kids so they won't lose it (as public transportation in HK is a huge business). It would really be nice if we had a system like that here. From the way things look, we may be up to speed in a few more years!
  • but more a sign of how convenience.has won over modern society. More people will eat at McD's because it's now faster than anything else, choke up on their fries and Big Mac, and the country as a whole gets five pounds heavier and less healthy overall.

    Neat idea, but I'll pass, thank you.

    LV
  • That's great -- I can't wait for them to put those speedpasses in the Ironman triathlon watches, so that the fat slob wearing it can get his greasy Mcdonalds big mac and fries 10 seconds faster than his previous record... :)

    Ha ha ...
  • Its the mark of the beast!!!!!!!! :-p
  • The utility vs. security of the Speedpass has baffled me right from the start. Speedpass was a technology developed by Esso (Exxon) to be used at its gas stations. Soon after, another gas station company here in Canada, PetroCan, developed its own proprietary version of the technology. At the outset, it appeared that the two technologies wouldn't interoperate, and I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise.

    What we have then, is something that is effectively a (faster) credit card, except that the credit card only works in one place (namely, an Esso /or/ a Petrocan station). So the trade is a (little) extra speed (since you can swipe a card at the pump, too) for the ability to only use it in one or two places.

    Moreover, the security of the Speedpass is minimal -- less so than even our credit card system. And who knows how good/fast Esso will be at deleting your account when you tell them your Speedpass has been stolen.

    To me, it seems like they're trying to get (gas) brand loyalty. Here in Canada (different than in the US), gas quality at different stations is essentially the same (due to regulatory bodies); thus, brand loyalty is a myth when it comes to gas -- I just see who gives me the cheapest gas on the day that I need it.

  • Looks pretty insecure... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Dr.Dubious DDQ ( 11968 ) on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @11:52AM (#3119150) Homepage

    Browsing on Speedpass' own website [speedpass.com], it appears that there is NO security other than needing physical possession of the "speedpass" device. (Their "Question and Answer" section specifically states that you don't even need to type in a PIN number)

    So...who's going to be the first to build a directional "Pringles(tm) Can" antenna to record SpeedPass exchanges, and publish schematics for programmable speedpass "emulators"?

    The only way I'd consider bothering with this is if I could get a "buffer" account to tie it to, and dump, say, $50 in it at a time from my real account (so that if my "Speedpass" gets stolen and is used before I have a chance to transfer the money back out of the "buffer" account, I wouldn't be able to lose more that $50 or so...) Tying it to a Credit Card just seems completely insane to me, especially since other posts say that YOU are liable for unauthorized charges on the thing...

  • And yet mcdonald's does not take credit/debit (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SCHecklerX ( 229973 ) <greg@gksnetworks.com> on Wednesday March 06, 2002 @12:29PM (#3119414) Homepage
    That's nice.


    It would make more sense for McD's to start taking debit/credit cards first.


    I never have cash on hand, and it's wasteful to pull out $20, along with the usual ATM fee just to buy a couple of cheeseburgers.

  • "Timex. It takes a licking, and keeps on tracking your every movement, faithfully letting The Man and Doubleclick know your spending habits."

    Hey, it has a nice ring to it, doncha think?

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