AOpen Debuts The Funniest Motherboard Ever 520
Anonymous Coward X-11 writes "Has AOpen gone flipping nuts by putting vacuum tubes on its motherboards?
AX4B-533Tube
No, it's not replacing logic ICs with discrete components. The tubes are part of the on board audio. Not sure if they are serious about this. April 1 was two months ago." As an owner of a tube headphone amplifier I applaud AOpen's move to accomodate the high-end audio enthusiast, while simultaneous wondering about the ability of a switched psu to properly drive a tube amplification stage cleanly. There's no way this is for real, right? Right? Here's a link that seems to work pretty well. And this looks pretty, well, real. Update: /. reader Jedi1USA noted that HardOCP has more pics of the board.
Oh that's what I need... (Score:4, Funny)
Well... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Oh that's what I need... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Oh that's what I need... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Oh that's what I need... (Score:3, Interesting)
Water cooled tubes are designed and built to be water cooled. When I did college radio we had an Old Harris transmitter that use to melt the tubes on us (as in the tube would come out as a glob of glass). We replaced it with a prototype first generation Harris Solid State FM transmitter
Check out Harris [harris.com] for more information on high end RF systems. Hmmm... looks like they do have solid state high power AM transmitters now
Re:Oh that's what I need... (Score:2, Funny)
My dad says... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:My dad says... (Score:2)
Re:My dad says... (Score:3, Informative)
As someone who has worked in the sound re-inforcement business, yes tube amps sound great, audio-philes love them, but well designed transitor amps can sound great too, and are much more practical, power efficent, smaller and cooler (temperature) I'd like to see some evidence to back up your vague statement.
Re:My dad says... (Score:2, Interesting)
This isn't evidence, per say, but as a semi-serious guitar player I can tell you that solid state guitar amps tend to sound harsh and sterile, while tube amps have a warmer sound to them. Modern effects processing can simulate tube amps quite well, though. I've never heard of anybody prefering a tube amp in their home stereo.
Re:My dad says... (Score:5, Informative)
For stereo use, the goal of the amp is (or should be) to reproduce with the highest fidelity possible the sound as recorded. There, while tube amps tend to be better than "cheap" solid state amps, a high end SS amp is at least as good as a high end tube amp.
I do know people, however, who prefer tubes on their stereo for whatever reason (mostly snobbery, IMHO). A lot of audiophile companies make ones with tube pre-amps and a SS final stage and/or all tubes. I haven't found these systems to sound particularly better than some high end SS amps.
Ding Ding Ding.... (Score:3, Insightful)
The most common argument the tube lovers trot out is that the best guitar amps use them. They seem to forget that when you are listening to music, you want something that accurately reproduces the sound on your source, you don't want something that changes the source.
"Audiophiles", flame away.
Re:Ding Ding Ding.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Since the late 70's (for the most part - some have never bothered to change) venues have tended to use solid state amplification for sound reinforcement, for the reasons listed above - more efficient power consumption, more reliable, etc.
For guitars, tube amps just sound better. Digital modelling, etc., all try to REPRODUCE the sound of a tube amps, not best it. That's fairly telling. The reasons tube amps sound better for guitars are varied, but are mostly centered around overdriving the amp. The distortion comes on very smoothly as you roll the volume up, and responds to dynamics much better.
For home stereo? Some of the best audiophile home stereos I've heard have been tube (mid 70's Marantz gear), and some have been transistor (late 70's Marantz gear). But tube amps are just NOT cost effective anymore, and almost all of the supposed advantages are just audiophile snobbery.
Another problem with current tube amps is the downright sorry state of tubes. You have to search REALLY hard to find a really high quality 6L6, 12AX7, or EL34 nowadays, and those are the most common used in amplifiers. Hell, the only place to find really high quality ones, like Mullards or Telefunkens I've found is eBay. And they're expensive.
Remember, audiophiles don't listen to music, they listen to noise, and therefore souldn't be taken seriously.
Re:My dad says... (Score:3, Informative)
You can design a solid-state amplifier that has exactly the same distortion and non-linearities of tube amps (but why?) -- that's not good enough for golden-ear audiophiles though. They'd rather listen to their "Test LP" on their custom turntables and talk about sound-stage separation and the "special warmth" added by the special green CD markers and about how analog is obviously better than digital because what if the signal changes between those digital samples? Me, I'd prefer no distorion, and in any case I'd rather spend my time and money on music, not equipment.
(There are a couple of reasons to use tubes, where solid state devices don't work very well: very high power applications, like broadcast radio and TV transmitters' final stage RF amplifiers; and microwave tubes, like klystrons and magnetrons.)
Re:My dad says... (Score:3, Insightful)
It's common knowledge with audiophiles and professional musicians that vacuum tubes are better than solid state technologies at reproducing sound.
It's common knowledge (among audio engineers, because MOST "audiophiles and professional musicians" don't understand the electronics involved) that a vacuum tube power amplifier operated in a push-pull configuration and biased for Class A operation produces less distortion than the designs commonly used for solid-state power amps. HOWEVER, a solid-state PA operating under the same conditions will produce just as clean an output and waste just as much power and generate as much, if not MORE heat.
That being said, I read the tech specs on the board and find it a woefully inadequate attempt to cash in on the "coolness factor" alleged to apply to tube amps for audio.
The tube on the mobo is a dual triode. Since it's being fronted by a stereo sound circuit, push-pull design is out of the question. It's just a straight-up dual-channel, single-ended power amplifier. This coupled with the fact that (IIRC) most multi-section tubes are directly-heated (the filament IS the cathode instead of just a heat source), indicate that improvement in perceived audio quality will be minimal at best.
Without seeing the schematic for the amp, I can't give an opinion about it's stability, but triodes tend to be fairly susceptible to parasitic oscillations if they are operated at more than moderate power gain without HEAVY bypassing. This hefty use of capacitive filtering is what gives tube amps their reputation for "warmer sound". The fact is that a lot of the higher frequencies are bled off by the bypass capacitors.
Class A amps typically have a plate efficiency of 35 percent or less. This, coupled with the existence of the tube's filament (heater, for the Brits among us) indicate that the tube is going to produce PRODIGIOUS amounts of heat for a minimal improvement (if any) in true audio quality.
In short, I see it as a "gimmick" mobo.
Re:My dad says... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm on the whole "solid state is good for music" wavelength with you, but guitar amps are kinda a special case - they are designed to be driven past the "normal" limits, and it's that breakdown in fidelity that a tube provides (and which is unique to each variant of tube) that you're after. Sure you can model the whole thing, but at a certain point, getting the sound right when you're laying down a strong bass with harsh pops with your thumb while going up and down the high treble hammering and sliding... well, it really just is easier to use an "analog" devide like a tube. It's the subilty of the extremes that tubes get right - or rather, they get it wrong, and that's what's wanted. And to 99.9% of people who listen to the music, it makes no difference whatso*ever*. But, when you're performing, you can hear the difference between your fingernails at one length and 1/16th of an inch longer, and for a musician, it's all about the tiny little details. Hell, I play almost entirely acoustic nowadays, and I like listening to the sound slowly alter in the morning in the woods as the humidity changes as the sun burns off the fog and dew. Does that mean that I care? Hell no... I just *notice* - that's what musicians do when they play. Each musician cares about different things... some *really* care about their amp sound. More power to them.
You can hear all sorts of things in high fidelity headphones while listening to Zeppelin or the Beatles - talking off to the side, older demo tracks, etc. They were never *intended* to be played on high quality speakers with a recording as good as the master. (And if you're listening _solely_ for those little things, you're doing what someone up above pointed out - audiophiles listen to noise, not music) Kinda like how SciFi props for TV shows look like painted crap in real life - they are intended to be shown on a really fuzzy NTSC or PAL screen. Fidelity is great to a point - movie soundtracks are much more clean than most albums simply because they *know* they are going to be played in a digital theater, whereas albums are (usually) meant to be enjoyed for the music.
Let the musicians be anal about the sound - it's your job to get laid with the music going on in the background, or blare it while driving down main street with your buddies singing along, or sob into your beer about how that guy on the jukebox is singing about how she left you, or otherwise just make part of your life. I've spent my time in darkness in a comfy chair, eyes closed, listening to good headphones... the goal is still the same: Enjoy your music.
--
Evan "First got laid to Grateful Dead, was listening to the Brandenburgs when I found out about 9-11, listening to Crowded House, Kill Eye right now".
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why your dad says that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why your dad says that... (Score:3, Informative)
Two notes:
1) many line level tube circuits do not pass through trannies. There are many reasons tube circuits do not clip "hard", but the most common one is that tubes are low gain devices, operated with low (or no) negative feedback. It is NFB that "squares up" the clipping, producing the high order (nasty) harmonics.
2) I couldn't get to the site, but the most common tubes are dual triodes, which is quite sufficient for a stereo buffer.
Re:Why your dad says that... (Score:4, Informative)
It's probably a dual triode...a 12AX7 or something similar. 2 sections of 3 pins each (cathode, grid, plate) plus three for the heater (center-tapped so you can run it on 6V or 12V) makes 9 pins total, which was fairly common.
(I looked for clues that this might've been an April Fool's joke, but didn't see anything to say that was the case.)
Re:Why your dad says that... (Score:3, Informative)
The pix at HardOCP include some closeups of the firebottle...turns out it's a Sovtek 6922, an industrial-grade equivalent of the 6DJ8 twin triode (the European equivalent is ECC88). Here's a page [audioasylum.com] about the 6922 and friends from what sounds like an audiophoole perspective. (The historical info is interesting, though.)
Re:My dad says... (Score:3, Informative)
1) buy new tube
2) remove old tube
3) insert new tube
entire operation takes about 30 minutes (assuming you live 10 minutes from a music store with tubes
i've got an ampeg bass head (1200 watts (!)) that i can re-tube completely in about 10 minutes total...not really that hard an operation
Re:My dad says... (Score:2)
In audiophile circles its pretty much the same deal, you can get a nice warm but low-keyed 'distortion' out of an amp that many audiophiles prefer to solid state.
Yes, it _is_ nuts! (-: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:My dad says... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, but tubes don't automatically mean better sound. Junk is junk with tubes or without. There are plenty of tube amps that sound like crap.
They're all harmonics! (Score:5, Informative)
Huh? They're all harmonics. Tube and certain kinds of FET (field effect transistor) based amps have a "soft limiting", so when they get close to clipping, they tend to generate even harmonics. Three of the first four even harmonics are exactly 1, 2, and 4 octaves away (2nd, 4th, and 8th harmonics), and so this form of distortion tends to be more melodic and pleasant. The 6th, 10th and so on aren't so melodic, but since the amplitude of the harmonics drops as you go to higher harmonics, you're ok.
BJT (bipolar junction transistor) based amps (and other types of solid state amps) tend to clip rather hard. No soft-limiting, they stop right at the rails. This clipping action creates a boatload of odd harmonics. These harmonics are fairly dissonant, giving the harsh sound most people complain about.
But they're all harmonics.
--JoeRe:They're all harmonics! (Score:5, Interesting)
The math of this is simple - and applies to RF as well as AF. Take two of the signals in the systemm and approximate them for as sin waves. The nonlinearity can be modeled as a power series, so you have terms of the form:
f(a,b) = A*(a + b) + B*(a + b)^2 + C*(a + b)^3...
Substitute
a=sin(w1*t+phi)
b=sin(w2*t)
And do the trig and you can see that you end up with all sorts of neat frequencies such as
w1-w2, 2*w1-w2, etc.
Now, instead of f(a,b), imagine f(a,b,c,d,e,f,g...)_ and you can see the mess that intermodulation makes. It basically mixes (in the frequency domain) all of the signals AND all of their harmonics in all possible combinations!Tube amplifiers *do* sound different because their distortion curves are different than solid state amps. Why audio "purists" prefer one distortion curve to another is what I don't understand. What I want is minimal distortion overall!
But then, audiophiles also buy gigantic cables because they imagine that their speakers will sound better attached to them... etc.
Technical note: The coefficients on the various terms of the power series tend to go down with the order of the term. And, some configurations approximately cancel out all odd or even terms.
Re:They're all harmonics! (Score:3, Informative)
first non-troll? (Score:3, Insightful)
It is still probably a gimmick. Tubes make a lot of heat (they actually need to be above a certain temperature to work properly). Why would you want something like that in your case?
who are they kidding? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who are you kidding, AOpen? Leave the high-end audio to the specialists, and leave it off your mobo!
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Re:who are they kidding? (Score:5, Informative)
Most musicians are not engineers, and vice/versa. (I happen to be both, so I'll be glad to translate). Musicians are interested in sound production, and everyone else in sound REproduction. These are two totally unrelated things. A guitar amp is SUPPOSED to add distortion and tonal coloration to the signal. In fact tests for frequency response and distortion as applied to Hi-Fidelity equipment mean nothing when done on a guitar amplifier. We WANT to modify the original sound. That's exactly what the designers at Martin were doing from day 1. An acoustic guitar has a resonating chamber, a sound hole, and a front and back surface that act as diaphragms. If we could plot the frequency response of a single string played back on a good acoustic guitar, we would see all kinds of nastiness. Violins... the same thing. Saxophones... ditto. Pianos... of course. The sound quality of an instrument, what we call timbre (pronounced tam'ber) is a highly desired characteristic. It's what separates the Steinways from the Wulitzer uprights and the Martins from the Hondos, you get the idea.
In an electric instrument, there are no resonating chambers to add flavor, so we add it with distortion instead. Distortion, the crux of the biscuit..... sometimes we want it, other times we don't. That's what always bugs engineers and audiophiles alike. When you're trying to REproduce an already distorted sound, you don't want to add any additional distortion from the amplifiers. And you certainly don't want to add transistor distortion products. Sometimes tube distortion on a clean signal is OK. What, did I just contradict myself? No way, Jose'.
Here's the point of this whole exercise:
TUBE AMPLIFIERS SOUND DIFFERENT FROM TRANSISTOR AMPLIFIERS PRIMARILY WHEN THEY DISTORT!
You can see it on a o'scope, hear it with your ears, and prove it on paper, so I know it's true. And here's why: Transistors and tubes use different principles of physics for operation. Valve amps (the original name for tube amplifiers) are basically voltage driven, so when they distort, even-order harmonics are produced (2nd, 4th, 6th, etc...) while transistor amps are current driven and produce odd-order harmonics (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc....) When you look at them both on an oscilloscope, the transistor amp flattens out the waveform, while the tube amp sort of makes a triangle wave. If we look at the inherent resonances of acoustic instruments we find that things like violins make lots of even order harmonics, while things like clarinets make lots of odd order harmonics.
Now, do we want our guitar to sound more like a violin, or a clarinet? Ah yes, the violin is much more "sweet" sounding. That's because the human brain likes and will tolerate much more even-order distortion than it will odd-order. One of the great distortion boxes in recent history is the Aphex Aural Exciter. The guys who designed this thing were marketing geniuses. The original units were sealed boxes with tamper proof hardware. They were leased to studios for final mix down. Once a few big artists like Linda Rondstat and Fleetwood Mac used and liked them, their place in audio gadgetry was assured. Of course they just use a clever method of picking out the fundamental note of say a human voice, making a little distortion, and adding it back to the original signal. This adds "warmth" or "depth" to the sound that can be, well, exciting. Our theory about odd vs. even distortion holds up because while the first units made lots of odd harmonics, several years later I remember an engineering release that hyped a new distortion circuit with increased the 2nd order distortions, while reducing the 3rd order products. Sound's very interesting doesn't it? They made a way to produce "tube" sound in a device that's basically used on vocals and strings. Again, the brain likes even-order distortion while finding odd-order somewhat irritating.
There's some tricks to be used for making distortion. You can get transistors that are voltage driven called MOSFETS. In my opinion, they can be made to sound like tubes if properly designed. Also, once a signal is digitized, it can be made to sound like anything in theory, if the proper algorithm is applied. The problem is, they've been working on the sound of a Strat going through a Marshall for a long time. It's hard to beat the sound of a well designed tube amp, but they're beginning to learn how. Some of the new Multi-EFX boxes like the Quadraverb do an amazing job at processing a guitar. But I've found that they still need to go through a speaker to smooth out the sound. (There's additional distortion, coloration and bandwidth limiting produced by all loudspeakers)
Now for all you guys and gals who like their transistor amps and fuzz boxes, there's nothing wrong with what you do. Sometimes odd-harmonics are needed to cut through the mix. I sometimes purposefully loop a guitar track back into an overdriven channel on my board just to "dirty" it up a little. It can make a bland lead really stand out at times. But it's just a matter of taste. I really like the even-order distorted, bandwidth limited, compressed sound of a traditional tube amp for guitar.
But REproduction is a different story. I've got preamps that are rated in parts-per-million distortion. I tweak all my tape decks for the flattest response possible, and work hard to get the best signal-to-noise ratio possible. That's because I like the final sound to be as faithful to the original as possible.
Re:who are they kidding? (Score:2, Insightful)
True, and PCs themselves are acoustically noisy as well. What's the point of super high fidelity sound reproduction when you've got hard drives, dvdroms and fans whirring in the background?
basic electronics (Score:2, Interesting)
As someone who's worked in music stores for years, and with computers even longer, i can say with some authority that a small onboard tube of the kind shown here (looks like a 12AX7) would be useless for output; you see this kind of thing more often in tube preamps for input, so it doesn't seem logical. others have noted the RF interference, and the fact that a *single* tube would only result in mono audio - a one-tube solution would be more suitable for an AM radio or a guitar distortion unit. I would point out the sheer size of the component (about 3 inches tall) and the fact that it gets as hot as a light bulb as factors that would mean *something* in the computer would start melting (even presuming the use of ceramic sockets) - it'll certainly put a damper on your overclocking.
When it comes to audio and computers, the best solutions are high-end external A/D/A converters- the kind that support multiple sample rate options (the higher the better). If you want tube "warmth," you're not going to get it from one measly, underpowered preamp tube; you'll need a good tube *power amplifier* - not for loudness, but to provide more headroom before distortion sets in. These are about the size of 4U rack units and start at $3000 a pop....check www.audiogon.com for some listings
More useful would be native support for super-high audio resolution formats like SACD; with over 100KHz frequency range it eliminates a lot of the audio artifacts present in 44.1KHz (current CD) audio, reproducing transient highs with exceptional fidelity, bringing back a lot of the "air" missing from consumer digital recordings. That and multi-channel ADAT Lightpipe i/o.....
Re:basic electronics (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, actually it's current that heats up a tube, not voltage, although it's the voltage that shoves the current through the tube's filament. Depending upon design of the tubes filament, the voltage necessary to deliver the filament current (A+) can range from 2 Volts for some "nuvistor" itty-bitty little tubes once used in TV tuners to 35 or 50 Volts for some tubes intended for "hot chassis" radios and TVs that have the various tubes filaments in series across the AC line so that you can drop 85 Volts across a couple of tubes and use the remaining 30 or so Volts for some 6 or 12 Volt tubes.
Most of what are known as "receiving" tubes (tubes used in radios, TVs, and audio amps, including musical instrument amps, tend to use filaments designed for 6 or 12 Volts. If all the tubes in an amp use 6 Volt filaments and/or 12 Volt center-tapped filaments, you can heat 'em all with one secondary winding on the power transformer that they're connected in parallel across (sometimes with AC to DC rectification and filtering in between the secondary and the filaments).
Perhaps you were thinking of the tube's plate voltage (B+), which can run from 40 or 50 Volts up to several hundred. However, not only can you build a switching regulator on a motherboard to change 5 Volts DC to 3.3, but you can also include one that'll step up the voltage. It may not amount to a lot of amperage (current), but it doesn't have to. You can use a transformer on the tube's output to change high voltage, low current to low voltage, high current because power = voltage times current on both sides of that transformer, although a little bit of the power does get used up in the transformer (turns into heat). That output transformer also provides isolation from the high-voltage plate supply.
I only saw the top-down shot where you can almost fail to notice the tube, but it looks a little bit fat to be a 12AX7 or 12AU6 size envelope. I'd go find my old RCA tube manual and try to guess what they might be using, but it's old and falling apart (just like its owner :-), and doesn't need any unnecessary mileage put on it and besides I disremember just what it's currently buried under.
Re:who are they kidding? (Score:2)
Re:who are they kidding? (Score:2)
Re:who are they kidding? (Score:2, Insightful)
Though I am not too knowledgeable in the particulars of audio/music tech, I gather from your comments and others that this board is not geared towards people who actually know anything about sound, but rather those overabundant people who believe to their core they know everything about it, and don't..... I happen to know one or two. Blaargggh
Re:who are they kidding? (Score:4, Interesting)
Not strictly true--just use adequate RF sheilding. I use my PC for everything, including sound that would even be pleasing to audiophiles who didn't know where it was coming from. I use a modified high-end soundcard sheilded all around down to the sides of the PCI slot, and I've made a DIY Corda-type headphone amp (thanks, Head-Fi.org and Headwize.com!)inside a sheilded drive-bay box. Nothing is truly "external" to the PC, though it may as well be because the effect of the sheilding is the same.
RF sheilding and Faraday cages, people! It *can* be done, with a lot of elbow grease.
Lee De Forest (Score:2)
You're thinking of Lee De Forest who was the inventor of the audion tube, the tube equivalent of the transistor. De Forest is also one of the most fascinating men of the 20th century, one of the last great lone inventors whose invention spurred development of everything from the long distance phone network to the first digital computers.
If you ever get a chance I highly recommend reading Tom Lewis' book Empire of the Air [amazon.com] which profiles the three men probably most resposible for the modern age of communication: Lee De Forest, Edwin Howard Armstrong and David Sarnoff. IIRC, Ken Burns also did a documentary based on the book for PBS. These are truly three of the most interesting, and in many ways, most tragic men whom have ever lived.
Before everyone goes crazy... (Score:2)
That there are any options for high-quality on-board audio at all - this can only be a good thing.
gonna wait (Score:2, Funny)
This is like.... (Score:2)
Re:This is like.... (Score:2)
Re:This is like.... (Score:2)
You could leave the thing unlocked with all four windows rolled down in a dark alleyway in Chicago, and nobody would touch it.
What kind of tubes? (Score:3, Insightful)
A lot of audiophile tubes are sourced from Russian or Chinese factories. It would suck to blow the tube playing GTA3 and have to wait 12 weeks for a shipment from the far east!
Re:What kind of tubes? (Score:3, Informative)
audiophiles rejoice! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:audiophiles rejoice! (Score:2)
DL
Re:audiophiles rejoice! (Score:2)
Don't see how it's possible.... (Score:2, Informative)
Most tubes are going to require abot 16,000 volts to the grid. You'll need a nice-sized transformer to step up normal line current to that. And if it's powered off the MB power harness.....well, I son't think that's even possible. What's the highest voltage there? 12v? That trnasformer would have to be huge.
And all of that isn't even taking in to account the heat problems.
Re:Don't see how it's possible.... (Score:5, Informative)
And it is the plate of a tube that gets the B+ high voltage, the grid regulates the current flow, and uses a modest voltage.
A tube amplfier has 3 power supples:
A- to power the filaments (6 or 12v AC)
B- Hi voltage DC, in the 300 volt range
C- Low voltage DC, to power the grid circuits
Re:Don't see how it's possible.... (Score:2, Informative)
um... try 160V, at about 5-10mA for your typical preamp tube. Then about 6 or 12V for the filament. Piece of cake for a switched power supply...
The small tubes will contribute some heat, but we're not talking power output tubes, so the extra heat generation should be minimal - well within a PCs cooling limits.
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Re:Don't see how it's possible.... (Score:2)
Actually ATX supplies both +12 and -12, so the highest voltage is 24V. Not saying it would make a difference, but...
Re:Don't see how it's possible.... (Score:2)
If I got only 5000 hours of driving in my car before it went *(poof)*, I wouldn't buy it. I don't care if they gave me a traditional Geshia for 5000 hours, the MoBo isn't worth it.
Re:Don't see how it's possible.... (Score:2)
...then I would say you probably bought a car made by Verizon...
Re:Don't see how it's possible.... (Score:2)
I am pretty sure this is a joke some engineer at AOpen wanted to have at the expense of the particularly dumb crop of audiophile wannabes who think they can be leet by having a tube amp hooked up to their AC97 audio codec.
But tubes burn out, and have to be replaced.
Re:Don't see how it's possible.... (Score:2)
Here is one way. [techlib.com] I'm too lazy to try to find a better link with some theory attached, but if you follow the current path on the voltage swings, you should be able to figure it out.
Re:Don't see how it's possible.... (Score:2)
Re:Don't see how it's possible.... (Score:2)
Kill me now.
looks like a hoax... (Score:2, Informative)
Chrisd's right on about the power supply, valves have pretty demanding power requirements, and the voltage is much higher (300+ volts is typical) than what's normally present in a PC.
Also, most tube amps require output transformers, which is noticably absent from the photo.
Thirdly, there's only one tube! Presumably, if they are really after the audiophile market, it would at least be a stereo amplifier. Not to say anything about the noise problems present near high speed digital circuits. This is bunk.
More interesting reading... (Score:3, Informative)
You can also check out a IEEE story [ieee.org] they link to about vacuum tubes and their uses in modern audio.
New disk drive also in development for this board. (Score:5, Funny)
Still, could be interesting for your HTPC [slashdot.org]
Umm.... looks like a wannabe IT7 or AT7? (Score:2)
What exactly will this tube be doing? (Score:3, Insightful)
This whole thing seems kinda skimpy on details... I hope this doesn't give Creative any ideas. The last thing we need is a PCI SB Live card with this stuff on it:
This quality Creative Sound Blaster(tm) product requires the space of four PCI slots and a special attachment for your power supply.
For embedded market? (Score:2)
As an aside, don't tubes kick out a lot of heat? Any bets as to when we're going to see a Thermaltake Golden Orb for tubes?
Re:For embedded market? (Score:3, Interesting)
This board is about as useful to the embedded market as a 440hp straight-8 engine would be to a compact car manufacturer.
Crack Smokin' (Score:2)
Oh wait. Money. THAT's why companies cater to those nuts. I wonder how much extra this mobo will cost, and if they'll send out Jeves with while gloves and a new tube (for a sizable fee) when yours burns out.
-pmb
Does the board include a socket for... (Score:2)
Only one tube? (Score:4, Interesting)
k.
Re:Only one tube? (Score:5, Informative)
It's lower down on the page.
The tube is a dual triode, basically two tubes in the same package. It's got one or two cathodes, likely a common heater filament, two grids and two plates. The input signals go to the grids and the output signals are taken from the plates. Common cathodes would be fine, they'd both be connected to the same supply anyway. A common filament is an advantage, because it ensures the cathode(s) get the same heat, since thermodynamics plays a significant role in tube operation.
Answer your question?
--Blair
"Reading is fundamental."
Analog Computing? (Score:3, Interesting)
In the field of chaos theory, and cryptography, and countless others, analog computing is great. To have an analog accelerator, much as one has a 3D accelerator, or floating point module, would be great. The tubes could be rewired on the fly, like an FPGA, allowing the programmer do all kinds of things. Imagine if the programmer could work in voltages, with chaotic effects giving true random numbers. Using this chaotic data, you could form clouds and other random events for games, perform neural network calculations and countless other things.
The analog systems helping the digital ones would be quite a revolution.
Re:Analog Computing? (Score:2)
Your PC is not a '59 Fender Bassman. (Score:2, Funny)
As a muso who has always used Tube based amps for that rich warm tone that you can only get when those 6L6's and EL84's are glowing a nice red colour I know why you would want to do this as an audiophile. I just don't think it's very smart.
Here's why;
Heat - I never rest my beer on top of my amp, not because I'm afraid it will spill. I just don't like warm beer. Half-way through the first set and the top of my Bassman is warm enough to send my beer cool in a few minutes. And that's through 3/4" ply and some varnished covered tweed.
Heat - A mate of mine who does repairs on guitar amps has cursed the fate of many Mesa Boogie amps of the early - mid 90's, tube tone was no longer passe' but unfortunately, anyone that knew anything about engineering electronics for tube use had become passe. The problem was that the tubes sockets for the Mesa's were soldered right onto the main circuit board - after a few short months of club use these amps were toast! The tubes had caused enough damage to the main board that they had to be replaced. Leo Fender designed his amps so that the tubes were mounted off the main board, and still does to a certain extent.
Heat - Well kinda, guys, it's just not cool. If you really dig your tunes and are a true audiophile, you'll get yourself a device that is purpose built for the reproduction of music. Yeah, you're 'putey is kewl. But it's not one of these [audiophile.com.au].
I do think that this board is kinda funny.
TUBES ROCK!!! (Score:2)
If they are serious (which I doubt), then they would be using a matched pair of tubes, not a single tube. Of course, they could also be reverting from stereo to mono. Anyway, tubes rock! I've got about a hundred of them sitting around for various projects, none of which involve motherboards.
Ummm... why? (Score:2)
For my two PCI slots in the ultimate audiophile machine, I think I'd drop in a ProTools board, and hang a 24/96 or 24/192 interface off of it. The analog audio would then all live inside a nice shielded box with a good power supply (computer power supplies aren't real clean), and I can hang outboard gear off of that box.
Tubes are great for warmth and all, but there are much better places to put it. Like off the motherboard and in a separate shielded case. If they're serious about making their motherboards better for the audiophile, at least put a S/PDIF or ADAT out on the thing...
dammit! (Score:2)
tubes are better for audio, though i'm not sure about *digital* audio. a friend of mine who has better ears and more money than me maintains two home systems, one for analogue (vinyl, reel to reel, tape, radio) and one for digital. he uses solid state equipment for the analogue and mostly optical components for the digital. they both feed into the same speakers though.
anyway, this guy keeps an audio system the way some people keep cars. and until you're buying that level of equipment, i don't think questions like solid state vs. tubes have any relevance.
that said, big tube + black PCB makes me wish for a clear case.
New computer maker! (Score:3, Funny)
Marshall computers with power switches that go to 11!
Phew! (Score:2)
Does the Case Have a Window to See the Tube? (Score:3, Funny)
Five volts will make the filament glow nicely. That's all it will take to convince the tube enthusiasts that the sound is better. No need for the tube to actually do anything.
To be somewhat less sarcastic, a small switcher could supply 100 volts or so for the plate, or they could use one of the 12 volt tubes that were developed for car radios.
Re:Does the Case Have a Window to See the Tube? (Score:2)
My thoughts.. (Score:2)
I love stereo's, I used to be into car stereo's but now im more into home theater stuff. I enjoy a good system just as much as the next person. My computer right now is hooked up to a sony str-de825 receiver, paradigm phantom speakers, and a velodyne 12/15 sub. It thumps pretty good, and I can still hook my reciever up to my computer using an optical cable, but I need a pretty long one and they are expensive.
I tried looking at this motherboard to see how it all works, but it doesn't mention much. Does it just use headphone jacks for the speakers, or does it have some way of accepting speaker cable? They say the motherboard is about 215 bucks, without the tube amp it would probably be about 150 bucks im guessing, so its a cheaper way of getting sound out of your pc vs. the external reciever/amp route. Here is a quote from their site:
AOpen's hybrid AX4B-533Tube unquestionably is targeted to a very exclusive niche market - passionate audiophiles and extreme gamers who are interested in building their own ultimate entertaining PCs
Id say that most passionate audiophiles also have enough money to buy equipment that would satisfy a passionate audiophile. So, that is a 'very' exclusive market, broke passionate audiophiles. The same goes for extreme gamers who want to build an ultimate entertaining pc (whatever that is supposed to mean. To me this includes a real home theater system =)
Ah well, its something new, shouldn't knock it, its just not for me I don't think. Anyone here have the chance to see one of these in action?
Tubes=Distortion (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Tubes=Distortion (Score:4, Interesting)
Very true. And there's a great story about it. Bob Carver, the amplifier designer, once took one of the much-touted High End tube amps into a test lab and characterized its transfer function. He then built a transistor amp designed to match the transfer function of the tube amp. In blind testing, listeners, even fanatical High End types, couldn't tell the difference.
It didn't sell.
So, partly as a joke, he designed the Carver Silver 7, the most overdesigned tube amplifier ever built. $25,000. All tube. Separate power supply, preamp, and power stage chassis. For each channel. Everything chrome-plated.
It sold. Got great reviews. "Amplifier of the Decade" from The Absolute Sound. Carver must have laughed all the way to the bank.
this must be a joke (Score:2)
As other /.'ers have pointed out, this MUST be a joke. A single vacuum tube in an amplifier doesn't serve any purpose but as a heater (or maybe just amplifies the center channel??)
I could imagine using a few (maybe fake) vacuum tubes in a case mod, that would be very cool. Or maybe build the power supply with tubes?? Has anyone tried that?
Oh well. I wouldn't mind having a nice tube amp OUTSIDE the computer for listening to MP3s .. it might fend off the digital noise of those 128k encoded MP3s.
What I really need to do is replace the 21-inch vacuum tube I stare into all day with a nice flat-panel model...
Possible? Yep. (Score:2, Informative)
Easy. they state they have a switched mode power supply on board.
for those that dont know, you can step up that meager 12 volts to 5,000 volts if you wanted.
also, they state that it is a DUAL TRIODE tube.
this may very well NOT be a joke. it can be done. issues I have with this setup include noise, heat, and if the tube is socketted.. or available if it dies down the road. todays power supplies are better filtered than the supplies of yesterday, and im sure that the tube is better made, as well.
I may want one just for the hell of it, you have to admit... its pretty damned neat
And also, on this mobo... (Score:2)
And the commercial is something like:
"Easy to Use, easy as Hell"
:)
The RIAA put them up to it... (Score:2)
Hillary Rosen was quoted as saying this hardware program will finally end the Napster menace once and for all.
Pictures (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Pictures (Score:5, Informative)
This is a preamp tube, which is appropriate, actually. Get those nice GloFET harmonics and then feed it to some decent SandAmp for actual power.
Interesting concept. Twisted, and I don't think I want my preamp tube in the same faraday cage as my P4, but it is interesting.
-Z
Re:Pictures (Score:4, Insightful)
Uhh, no. It's a dual triode. That means it has two sections each of which have three electrodes. Those three electrodes are Plate, Grid, and Cathode, which map roughly to Emitter, Base, and Collector. (I think...it's been a while) Actually, I suppose Source, Gate, and Drain are more appropriate, this being a GloFET.
In any case, there are two devices, not six, so you get two channels, not six. In fact, I'm pretty sure the 6DJ8 was designed for balanced operation, not stereo. For the less tube savvy out there, that means it was designed for one channel, not two.
Firebottle, but not Firewire? (Score:3, Funny)
On the flip side, I've never been much for case windows...but this board NEEDS a window!
-Z
Obligatory pun jokes... (Score:3, Funny)
VACUUM tubes? isn't that the new name for Rambus memory that sucks even more?
How they came up with this idea... (Score:3, Funny)
Bean counter: "You know, people are only willing to pay about $6 for a soundcard. How can we get back to the good old days when people spent great gobs of money replacing high-priced disposable components?
Engineer: Let's stick a tube in there. Everyone likes the nice fuzzy sound that comes from tubes. Hell, that's why "Turbo Bass" and equalizers are so popular.
Bean Counter: Sounds good, as long as we get the most outlandish design, so they can't just get parts or repairs from anywhere. We want them to come back to us.
Engineer: Got it!
CD Player in BIOS (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:w00t (Score:3, Informative)
Re:This is like Linux (Score:2, Insightful)
I wouldn't expect the typical
Re:Ahhh... (Score:3, Funny)
uh... so it the odbc connection timed out, or the time it allows to timeout expired?
i think [ODBC fuckup] explains it much better.
Re:Where did the ISA slots go... (Score:2)
Re:Can someone please explain this (Score:2, Interesting)
There are tradeoffs. Tubes do blow out and can't be driven as hard as solid-state designs. Vendors of tube amps tend to concentrate on providing a "distinct" sound, and quite often this means embellishing the tube output to make it sonically "thicker" than it would normally be.
In many cases this can be used to balance your system out. For example, I recently added a hybrid tube/MOSFET to my system (Smart 2X150VT) to soften the sharper sounds of my Sony pre-amp.
While it worked, this is certainly not the goal of ultimate fidelity. Ideally you would want a neutral amp/preamp with no harmonic distortion, and a solid-state design would likely be your solution. I don't imagine a tube-based sound board in a PC is all that practical, an out-board solution with easily replaceable tubes would make sense.
Of course, in that case you could just buy yourself a tube amp!
AC97 was Re:its a waste! (Score:3, Informative)
Really, what kind of sound card do you have? If you are using your computer for high-end audio production or music composition and are talking about truly high-end sound cards, that statement has some merit, no commercial AC 97 codec can probably produce what you would consider "good sound".
Presuming this is not the case, its probable, unless you have in fact a very obsolete or low-quality sound card, that it in fact uses an AC 97 codec similar to those used by many onboard sound interfaces. AC 97 is just a generic standard defining an interface between the sound codec (which actually produces the sound) and the controller (which attaches it to the bus, and provides DSP and synthesis functionality is some cases). Even expensive consumer sound cards like the Creative ones and the Hercules Game Theater use codecs which are AC 97 compatible. Most of the criticism of motherboard audio either has to do with the lack of features (which given that even expensive consumer sound cards don't do hardware MIDI synthesis anymore, isn't terribly relevant except for video game players) or the poor sound quality (which doesn't have to do with the AC 97 standard per se, but low quality of individual codecs and poor electrical design. None of these things are universals, I have a notebook which uses the AC 97 codec interface of its motherboard chipset, but a Crystal codec (identical to the one used by most of the CS4630 cards like the Santa Cruz, Game Theater, etc.), and produces very nice output.