Proposed Law To Open Code ... In Cars 398
SEWilco writes: "A Minneapolis Star Tribune story points out that small repair shops say they lose money because they don't have access to car computer codes. These 'codes' are the diagnostic messages used by onboard computers to report problems and perform tests. Older designs only required a jumper wire to make a test light flash code patterns, certain dashboard actions to display codes, or a cheap display terminal from a parts store. Now the interfaces and code meanings are more complex and undocumented, so only auto dealer repair shops can easily find causes of some problems. U.S. Senate S.2617 and House H. R. 2735
would force auto manufacturers to share the codes. Sen. Wellstone says that manufacturers are acting like a cartel, blocking independent shops and car owners. But GM is being helpful."
This is a good thing (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is a good thing (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually, I prefer to think of this as an analogy my redneck friends can understand. When talking to my grandmother I relate to cooking: secret recipes vs. sharing and modifying recipes with others. Giving people something to relate to is half the battle!
Re:This is a good thing (Score:4, Insightful)
Closed source allows some companies to make money directly from the software they produce. If closed-source software producers can do this and still remain competitive, then good for them! BUT, it's only acceptable when they compete fairly in the market and if consumer choice is really there. In order for this to happen, we need open protocols.
Re:This is a good thing (Score:2)
So you're saying this is more akin to the SMB/CIFS issue... in which case I'd have to agree with you. Actually it seems very similar, especially if what some of the previous posters' comments are accurate; Honda only sells the manuals to their dealers/mechanics... but I'll bet you don't have to sign an NDA (yet) or some other restrictive contract limiting your ability to disseminate their proprietary information.
Re:This is a good thing (Score:2)
Re:This is a good thing (Score:2)
Yeah, despite the fact that it's a ridiculous analogy. Analogies don't prove anything. They just make you more convinced of your beliefs, whether they're right or wrong.
Don't you think the huge difference in proportion is relevant? When you buy a car, you do so with a 100% guarantee that the car will require service, and that service is a significant portion of the total cost of ownership of the car. The average consumer who buys an off-the-shelf software product (e.g. a game) will probably never need support. In the case of a more major purchase (e.g. an OS/Office suite), you get free updates off the web. The average consumer doesn't pay to have someone customize their OS for them. If they're technically challenged, they might pay someone to install it for them.
-a
Re:This is a good thing (Score:2)
What with EFI and EGO sensors, cars are pretty much self tuning and will put up with all sorts of crap. They can now run for ludicrous distances without major repairs - you can get 150,000 km from a car and only have to remember to change the oil and put on a set of tyres occasionally. The buick-derived motor in my Australian-built car has seen over 350,000 kilometers, and still contains all it's major components and doesn't blow smoke. The bits that have worn out (water pump, battery, alternator) do not require a diagnostic computer to diagnose.
Speaking as an auto electrician, yes, your company is pretty much screwed if you come across a late model volvo that's fried its crank angle sensor, and you don't have the reader to figure it out. Speaking as the person who drives their car however, it's still a damn sight better then when you had to set the mixture on your carby for winter and pull a little knob marked "choke" to get your car to start.
I saw a quote the other day (from fortune, no less), it went
"When all else fails, pour a pint of guinness into the gas tank, shout 'God Save The Queen!', and pull the starter briskly.
- MG A series workshop manual"
It think it still sums it up nicely.
Karma Whoring: (Score:2, Informative)
Basically, they're leveraging their IP. I say good for them, but most people here will probably want to skewer them.
People rarely think about this kind of thing before purchasing a car. Maybe they should.
Re:Karma Whoring: (Score:2, Insightful)
Think about what? What are they supposed to do - buy a car without and onboard computer? or maybe buy a car from all those car companies who willingly make their codes available for anybody? or they could just not get those parts of their car fixed. this is pretty much out of the consumers hands, other than writing their congressperson to get the bill passed.
Re:Karma Whoring: (Score:2)
If the 3 of the largest auto makers in the world release the codes, why can't the others? It obviously isn't helping their business grow.
Re:Karma Whoring: (Score:2)
People buy cars for the look, the comfort, the convenience, the capacity, or the performance. When was the last time you heard anyone ask if the diagnostic computer code was available?
The car market shrinks and grows based on the economy. As the economy thrives, then the big ticket cars become popular. When it shrinks, buyers get frugal and buy lower-priced cars.
Yes, it does (Score:2)
Preventing antitrust? (Score:2)
Hmmmmmm...
I'm an optimistic (Score:2, Insightful)
Step 2: Start pushing for a law that mandates opening code... everywhere. Say that it prevents small independant consultants from repairing Microsoft ware.
Not the same at all... (Score:2)
Giving out the source would be like giving out the engine design specs. Ford and GM go through a lot of R&D and don't want to have to give out every piece of info about the cas they build and they shouldn't have to, Microsoft goes through a lot of R&D and also shouldn't have to give out their "engine source."
Giving out the API would be good though...
Re:Won't Work (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Won't Work (Score:2)
I own an Acura RSX.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Next car I buy, I will demand open specifications for, I'm getting tired of paying the kid to do what should have come with the car that I own.
I'm sure as fuck not signing a EULA when I buy my car not to violate its software.
OS software not likely for a while (Score:2)
Any ideas on how to answer these concerns?
This has always driven me nuts... (Score:4, Insightful)
Thankfully for some vehicle types, the enthusiast market has reverse engineered a lot of these protocols and codes. I've driven two different Audi's for the last three years, and spent an ungodly large amount of time and money tweaking and otherwise customizing them. Our enthusiast community has software like VAG-COM [ross-tech.com] which can provide a suprisingly large amount of capability for Volkswagen, Audi's and other VAG-group cars. But now Audi (and presumably Volkswagen) is changing their protocols yet again, keeping things proprietary and secret. Thankfully, I'm sure they'll be reverse engineered yet again.
Even with the capabilities the software has, we're still faced with having very good documentation for what most "sensor" blocks are, but essentially none for what the "settings" blocks are. I can read anything I want, but without insider VAG knowledge, I can't recode a damn thing.
Amazingly through trial and error, people have even figured out how to reprogram basic functionality on their cars, like how the automatic transmissions shift.
I would love to see this law passed, but it doesn't help things much if its just emissions codes that have to be released.
VAG-COM (Score:2)
Worst $80 I ever spent on my car... (Score:2)
Re:This has always driven me nuts... (Score:2)
The Bentley manual for it is about 99% "remove and refit" for parts on the car. There's some diagnostic stuff, but the Haynes manual(lists just about everything to do for it, rebuild engine, etc) compliments it.
I wouldn't call it 100% useful unless you are a gearhead.
Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing... (Score:5, Informative)
2) Also blatently incorrect. Companies absolutely hold this information close. In the example I used, Audi's tech manuals cost well over an order of magnitude more than the "consumer" level manuals cost. They are virtually impossible to purchase, anyway, if you're not certified by them. Not coincidentally, virtually all certified mechanics work for dealerships. The manuals that we end users have access to have the very bare minimum of information to perform very basic maintennance on the car. For example, say I want to flush my brake fluid. The procedure that the consumer manuals lists is very different from what the tech manuals list -- they don't even mention that you need to cycle the ABS controller using a VAG tool.
a) Yeah, thats a pretty common excuse stated by people who want to spout off and make people think they know what they're talking about
b) In most cases, this is also blatently wrong. The basic principles of how cars work have not changed much. No one needs to know how the internal code that runs the engine works, but knowing what all the errors it can tell you mean is pretty damn important. Knowing that changing your brake fluid the "old" way isn't doing the job completely is important to know too. This isn't stuff that "backyard" mechanics don't understand, this is stuff they are being deliberately not told. There's a big difference.
You know, you're right, there's a big problem with people who believe what they read. On here, though, there's a bigger problem with people who know a lot less than they think they know. Not that I'm pointing any fingers directly at you.
Re:Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing... (Score:2, Informative)
Ford was very helpfull.
BMW and Mercedes had to "ask the boss".
And Audi (VAG) even send me the codes via email.
ODBII isn't even worth mentioning.
The hadware costs less the 5Euro plus around 15Euro per manufacturer if you want a nice plug.
And the codes are well known and documented.
That consumer manuals don't mention to cycle the ABS after flushing the brake fluid is understandable - my TV manual doesn't say anything about changing R26 from 220K to 470K if I change the Sony driver IC for a Philips one - and if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't do it yourself anyway, a car is a dangerous weapon.
Car development got a lot faster in the last years,
at least the software side.
(I broke up with my last girlfriend, because she spent more time debugging car "OS" code than
Re:Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing... (Score:2)
Hopefully the service manual does...
Isn't what this is about anyway, the ability of independents to get hold of service manuals?
Re:Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing... (Score:2)
Usually you can get a service manual for under a 100 bucks from the dealer/manufacturer. Check in the back of your owners manual. Usually there is a page to send in to order one.
I think this law is to release the diagnostic code values and descriptions for the computer. These codes wouldn't need to be in the manuals since they are programmed into the dealer's diagnostic machine.
Re:Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing... (Score:2, Interesting)
No one? In fact, there is huge interest in how the code works. A very large number of the aftermarket chips and often things like A/F ratio controllers are directly dependent on how this code works. As an example, I race Vipers, and it was very important to know exactly what both ECUs were up to for optimizing the fuel map (I say both because the Viper V10 is really a V6+V4, right down to having a pair of ECUs). Just watching how the cells change (even using a dealership's $3000 monitoring tool) won't help much unless you can see the code. It's like watching Windows Media Player GPF. You sort of know what it did, but you have no idea why...
Also, I've never saved the URLs but I've seen quite a few discussion forums on the 'net dedicated to reverse-engineering the code in stock engine computers. The discussions commonly include chunks of assembly code. They're very serious, and they're very interested in the code itself.
On here, though, there's a bigger problem with people who know a lot less than they think they know.
Indeed... :P :)
Finally, this whole issue might be barking up the wrong tree. It may not even be the automobile manufacturers who keep this stuff "secret". I saw VW mentioned a bunch of times. A guy I know (who races Vipers) is an engineer who designs the chips for stock VW ECUs, and his company also writes the code -- and he doesn't work for VW. In other words, VW and other auto manufacturers do not necessarily own the code that runs their cars, it's often contracted out.
Re:Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing... (Score:2)
Also, some parts are patented. (Oil pressure sending switch.
Hack Your Car (Score:4, Informative)
It basically points out a few new programs and an physical interface that is designed for use with a laptop that can interpret many diagnostic codes. Just install the software, plug in your car and off you go.
It ougghta be a law! (Score:4, Interesting)
I mean, if the manufacturers wanted to, it would be easy enough to put a text readout in the dashboard that would say "engine airflow sensor failure" or something similar. Even an error code that you could look up in the manual would be decent.
When I buy a new car, part of my shopping checklist will be to see if I can get a (most likely) 3rd party diagnostic plugin tool.
If more buyers demand onboard diagnostics to be usable by owners without expensive dealership computers, it might start forcing manufacturers to make the information easily accessible.
Reminds me of Harry Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy (part 2). Give the buyers of the vehicles (in that case, steam wagons), the bare minimum of information to make servicing/repairing them impossible. At least the manufacturers aren't sealing the hoods and putting mustard gas inside to prevent repairs (yet).
Re:It ougghta be a law! (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, some cars have this. Got a Malibu ... turn the key slightly differently on start up, and watch the dashboard lights, then cross reference that with the manual (Chilton's, IIRC, not the manufacturers). Yeah, I'd love to have it display "Ignition coil #3 is f$cked", rather than what amounts to a binary display, but, then again, it keeps casual tinkerers out from under the hood ... and, IMHO, there's a whole lot more stuff now (compared to a decade back) that is not user servicable.
The other sad thing is that computer diagnostics are replacing brains. Take the alternator ... 99% of the time, it's the diode pack. But garages love to go the long route ... which involves more parts, more time, and thus more money. One car I've looked at was quite clear on the error message (Dead battery and/or bad ground). Well, at least it had the right system (electrical), but it took a pair of 25 cent brushes (in the alternator) to fix it.
Keeping the error codes secret also hides another problem ... a good percentage of the time, the error message is just plain wrong!
Re:It ougghta be a law! (Score:2)
Granted, for larger work, I have the work done on my 95 chevy by the dealer. But I assure you, with the right amount of time, I can do anything the certified dealer technicians can.
I bet it costs less... (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, it probably only cost $5.00 max - the MAP sensor tends to be one of the most complicated sensors in a vehicle today, but even so it is typically only a stress gauge mounted in a custom body that is part of the air intake so that as air passes by, it exerts a force - typically a custom chip inside interprets this force and relays it back to the computer (in some manner).
But back to your assertion - my brother-in-law's truck was having problems, and one of the codes in the ODB-I system said that he needed a new throttle position sensor - we found it was a dealer part - the dealer wanted $50.00! Since he needed it, he bought it. But guess what this "sensor" was...
Yup, a 100K potentiometer with spring return to zero, in a custom molded body.
F'in car manufacturers...
Please note (Score:3, Informative)
Everyone saying this is some sort of victory for Open Source is an illiterate moron, or didn't read the article.
Re:Please note (Score:2)
Re:Please note (Score:3, Insightful)
Everyone saying this is some sort of victory for Open Source is an illiterate moron, or didn't read the article.
It's not a victory for Open Source per se, but it's a similar issue. It's the idea of openness versus closedness. Does the consumer benefit more if the protocols for talking to car computers are kept closed so that only the manufacturer can perform repairs? Or is the consumer better off if his car's computer has open protocols that allow any competent mechanic to diagnose and repair the car?
There's a very direct parallel to the open-source-vs-proprietary-software debate. If this issue gets a lot of publicity, it'll make more people think about then open-versus-closed issue. That will make it easier to explain the benefits of open source to non-technical people.
Wasn't it Bob Young who asked "Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?"
TheFrood
Your analogy is flawed.. (Score:2)
Likewise, I don't care what shape my pistons are ground in, or how the valvetrain actually works. Overhead or pushrod, seal it up so I never see it, I don't care.
However, my computer as a whole had better not be welded shut! I want to be able to inspect its operation, make sure I'm the user and it's the tool, not the other way around. I want to be able to control its operation, write my own programs, and tweak the misfeatures of others' programs. I'll never need to manually adjust the flying gap on my hard drive, but I definitely do want to customize my boot sequence, and scrutinize data leaving over my net connection.
Likewise, my car should be open enough that I can change the parts I want to. I'm happy with the engine, but why can't I turn off my headlights when I pull into my friend's driveway, so as not to wake his neighbors? I want wiring diagrams, so I can make the lighter socket behave more sensibly. I don't care if certain parts are sealed for practical reasons, but the rest of it should be open for me, the owner, to customize.
I think your analoy is flawed because you compare the hard drive to a car. The drive can be a black-box with no ill effect. It's the computer system as a whole that must be open to the user. The car can contain several black-box components, but I should be free to inspect and reconfigure the connections between them.
If you think this tendency in cars is scary, go read this article on Microsoft's Palladium [infowarrior.org] plan. Talk about welded shut! At least your car doesn't refuse to carry passengers and cargo that haven't been approved by the manufacturer.
Re:Please note (Score:3, Insightful)
That's insulting to smart automotive technicians everywhere, and there are plenty [iatn.net].
It's like saying all programmers are dumb, just because there are some dumb programmers in the world.
Re:Please note (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand if auto manufacturers were run the same way software manufacturers seem to be, I'd be less confident that any serious testing had been done at all. =-)
-Paul komarek
Re:Please note (Score:2)
Every serious car enthusiest that I know already does so, in the guise of performance enhancing EPROM's. They get chips that mod their fuel injection ratios, throttle points, and even automatic transmission settings. While this is not really code, more data tables to feed the code, incorrect values can still have the same effect as broken code.
Re:Please note (Score:2)
Not to disparage the enthusiast, but it seems very likely they have fewer than 100 cars with the same computer. =-)
-Paul Komarek
Re:Please note (Score:2)
-Paul Komarek
Re:Please note (Score:2)
Re:Please note (Score:2)
ODB-II (Score:4, Informative)
You can buy standard ODB-II scanners, or PC interface boards. You can read and write data values in real time, it is a great system.
Of course, it is only manditory in some US locations, and manufacturers are free to make non-ODB models for other markets. More pressure for them to all support this would be a good thing.
The biggest problem is that 90+% of 'normal' mechanics out there seem incapable of interpreting the complexities of modern fuel injection systems (I've helped design some, and even I find them hard to understand at times), more information does not always fix that problem! The number of times 'they' (your normal mechanic) fall back to a mode of just replacing bits at random to 'fix' a problem is high.
Re:ODB-II (Score:2)
Re:ODB-II (ps) (Score:2)
Re:ODB-II (ps) (Score:2)
Re:ODB-II (Score:2)
Hey I can do that... No, what they do is decide that since they don't know what the error codes mean, it must be a problem with the computer. "Oh, your brakes are pulsing? Hmm, must be the computer, you know that controls the antilock brakes, don't you?" Or, "your headlights don't work? Must be the computer..."
Ok, I'm exaggerating (how the f* DO you spell that??). But you know what? It doesn't bother me any more. I've got my pimp-ass '79 Caddy Coupe Deville, w/ 7.0L V8. Sure I get ~10mpg, but it'll get up and go. Talk about your sleeper
Memphis, Making Easy Money Pimpin Hoes In Style
ol' dirty bastard? (Score:2)
"because Biggie done do some of that shit too"
Amazingly enough... (Score:2, Informative)
They also sell the interface hardware and software for
There are also numerous places to download free OBD demos.
Re:OBD-II (Score:2)
People see that there's a standard and assume that it's all OK. Kerberos is a standard and LDAP is a standard, I wonder why it's hard to make programs that work with MS's kerberos implementation and Active Directory? Is it because of undocumented vendor-specific extensions? I'll bet it is...
This would be great! (Score:5, Interesting)
We'd eventually get copies of the specs, by having some employee schmooze the people at the auto makers, and they'd conveniently leave the codes on their desks, and step out for a loooooong lunch
It'd be a whole lot less sleazy, though, if the car makers had to release the codes, and how to get them. I do see, however, that this could cause problems, as many of the datastreams are bi-directional, allowing you to change things while the engine is running, potentially causing a malfunction. I wonder if the lawmakers have considered that?
Re:This would be great! (Score:2)
Something Similar... (Score:5, Informative)
I recently ran into something somewhat similar. I have an older Acura Legend that has had a couple of nagging problems I've been trying to track down. First is a ticking sound from somewhere within the mass of emissions-control components. The other was an occasional failure of the air conditioning to cool.
Anyway, I was doing some searching on Google [google.com] and Google Groups [google.com], trying to see if someone had been down either of these paths before. I ended up, through an Acura enthusiasts site, at Alldata [alldata.com], a mechanics' and do-it-yourself'ers online technical reference subscription site.
Alldata had a list of Technical Service Belletins (TSBs) for my car -- these are notices sent from the manufacturer to dealers notifying them of, let's say "anomalies", in their product to be aware of. Sure enough, one was titled "BUZZING FROM EMISSIONS CONTROL BOX" and another was titled "A/C INTERMITTENTLY BLOWS WARM AIR". Jackpot!
All I had to do now was subscribe to Alldata [alldata.com] for a (relatively) measly $25 a year to read the full text of the TSB. But wait! It turns out that of the world's car companies, Honda (who makes Acuras) and BMW (you know what they make) do not allow their TSBs to be distributed to the owners of their products.
I called Acura's toll-free number and complained, and sure enough, they said they only provide and authorize distribution of TSBs to dealers. Seems Honda likes to keep secret what they know is wrong with their cars, giving their dealers an advantage and making owners and independent mechanics suffer along rediscovering what's wrong with Honda's shoddy products.
Anyway, fortunately, I discovered an excellent service, Taylor Automotive Tech-Line [4door.com] which is a kind of a pay-per-incident tech support for mechanics and others. A simple web form and $20 later, and they emailed me TIFFs of the "secret" TSBs. Both of which were exactly what was wrong with my car!
Turns out the air conditioning problem was caused by a circuit board chock full of cold solder joints that had cracked. Ten minutes with a soldering iron and fresh solder corrected that manufacturing defect. The clicking sound was diagnosed in less than five minutes with the help of the TSB and fixed by replacing a $59 chunk of plastic (a "Constant Vacuum Control Valve").
Taylor Auto Tech's motto, by the way, is "We Fill In The Cracks On The Information Highway". Thankfully, someone is.
Codes (Score:5, Interesting)
Now in the beginning of ECM's, all the sensors had different names, but the SAE has been working hard at even removing these obstacles. Also the auto industry is naturally working at producing standard error codes. Todays mechanics owe no loyatly to a dealership or brand (not a bad thing) Its much easier and cheaper if when another dealership or garage picks up a skilled mechanic they don't need to retrain them on that brands codes.
The automotive manufacturers know this and are migrating to common codes on their own. No need for the government to come in and add an additional expense to a process that is already happening.
What is happening is the liability of working on a car is becoming too expensive for small independant garages. This will be the death of mom and pop shops before nonstandard ecm codes are.
Re:Codes (Score:2)
My friend had a similar problem: the idiot light (service engine) was on, so he went to a mechanic to have a look at it, who found nothing wrong. He then talked to a dealer that said it automatically comes on at 60,000 miles, and for $60 they would give it a tune-up & the light would go out. Instead, my friend just put black electrical tape over the light & ignored it.
Re:Codes (Score:2)
Re:Codes (Score:2)
Open code? (Score:2)
Re:Open code? (Score:2)
-Rusty
You think ODB-II is bad? Check out ODB-III! (Score:4, Informative)
And you think it is bad now...
I have very little doubt that as the technology matures, they will be able to build a car that ONLY runs on "dealer gas", which has certain molecular marker "tags" in the gasoline to identify it, custom sensors (similar to that used for DNA analysis, only MUCH faster) in the fuel lines, etc hooked up to the computer. When I mean "dealer gas", though, it will probably be a "cooperative" agreement between a gas company and the manufacturer - or maybe it will be something where all gas will work, but a "certain" gas will work "best" - literally.
Re:You think ODB-II is bad? Check out ODB-III! (Score:2)
Embrace, Extend, Litigate.
-
www. [gentoo.org]
Everybody does it (Score:3, Insightful)
Photocopier makers used to be notorious for this sort of thing (they still are, it's just that all new photocopiers are now laser printers :) ).
this just in (Score:5, Funny)
In a controversial move today, Slashdot.org opened a new can of worms with their posting of open source the error codes message. Joe's everywhere are in shock at finding out that they indeed missed their calling.
From Joe C in Paduka, Ky.: "When I found out I was supposed to be working in automotive repairs, I completely was flabergasted. I have always felt like I was missing something in my life, this can explain why. Thanks
From Joe E. Muntzenburger in Lake Okeechobee, FL.: "Man, when they told me I was supposed to be "Big Joe" down at my local auto-shop, I was stunned. I mean, being CEO of a large paper mill is great, but it can't compare to sweating underneath the hood of a car I don't understand!"
Mods: If you don't get it, then you haven't been reading the comments.
Re:this just in (Score:2)
Jeeze man, let it go.
Re:this just in (Score:2)
peace
Yeah, GM is real helpful... (Score:2, Interesting)
...I had a brake problem for years, every couple of days to weeks, the computer would bitch about something wrong with the brakes (brake warning light). All the places I took the truck to basically kept saying, "We can't do anything because we can't read the computer codes." So, I kept having to take the truck to the GM dealer and pay their premium prices to "fix" the truck.
1 set of pads and disks replaced and cleaned, 2 master cylinders, a brake computer, and a dump valve later, after bitching relentlessly with the dealer about the problem, the light stopped coming on, yet the problems with the brakes continued. The truck liked to drift to the left or right when braking, sometimes hard. I suspected they cut the line to the warning light somewhere.
After taking the truck in for inspection at another place that is reputed as trustworthy, they replaced my brake lines (the only thing the dealer hadn't) saying that they where old and that the drifting was a sure sign they where wearing out. Problem fixed. Over a thousand dollers to fix a $50 problem thanks to GM.
Re:Yeah, GM is real helpful... (Score:2)
Taken this for granted (Score:2)
Never crossed my mind the the flash codes, or the "stick the wire in the proper holes" reader were tradesecret information, and difficult to access. This almost makes me want to figure out how to read the codes on my 97 Acura to see if they screwed me.
-Pete
I have some experience here.... (Score:5, Interesting)
it plugs into ALL cars made after 1996 (when the standard for OBDII came out) and most domestic cars with computers made before then. It tells me what code (or codes) have been set, and the data from the time it was set (RPM , engine temp, TPC value etc).
I then take the code, and usually it will say something along the lines of "PO0047 OXY Sensor Bank 2" (I made that code up, but it is very close to something which would actually occur)
Now, that tells me its an oxygen sensor in bank 2, no problem.
It seems to me all these "independent shops" just dont have the proper equipment(sidenote: I work at an independent shop). I have NEVER had a car give me a code that was "secret" and that I didnt have access to. Ofcourse, We have the proper equipment (the scanner was $6,000) and we also have several DVDS which , for each code in the computer give you a flow chart of what to check that could set that code.
It seems that the backwoods shops that people go to because they are cheap, dont have that equipment. Which is why noone understands that when we scan your computer for codes, we charge $55 just to check what the codes are for, not even to fix them.
So remember, when you get your car fixed and it costs a lot for something you think must be simple, remember that the mechanic is probably still paying for thousands of dollars in tools he needs for his job.
That was a long rant,but some of it was ontopic I guess.
Why spend $6000 for a computer with a cable? (Score:2)
How hard would it be to connect one of these $6000 machines to a PC with some kind of cable connect? You could have the PC generate every possible code sequence, over the line, then watch the results on the scanner and renter the results into the PC. Viola, the database is yours. Now reverse that connector so the PC can detect the codes, and for the price of whatever cable and port you need to hook up, the (hopefully free) cost of a 486, and a little programming for your UI, you've got yourself an equivalent scanner. And then you can start charging me what that service is actually worth (next to nothing) and make bank because people will actually start having the money to fix thier car everytime the mystery "check engine" light comes on.
Re:Why spend $6000 for a computer with a cable? (Score:2)
We're not talking about a very high demand item here. The high price is probably due more to the lack of demand for a very durable good.
hard would it be to connect one of these $6000 machines to a PC
Not very. But how much time do you lose working up that database? Somebody needs to be minding the garage.
you can start charging me what that service is actually worth
Well, how much the service is worth to you depends on how badly you need your car. While it may not cost the mechanic much after your "simple" process, YOU'RE still the one with the broken car. Sure, his job is easier, but you're failing to take into account the rest of the job, like labor, wear, insurance, tools, etc.
None of that stuff is cheap.
Re:Why spend $6000 for a computer with a cable? (Score:3, Insightful)
Mix this with a little bit of community-brainstorming on an automotive message board, and most car problems can be solved.Not having the tools to fix something is a whole other issue
Re:Why spend $6000 for a computer with a cable? (Score:2)
Hell, if rather than having a check engine light, the car itself just had a readout that showed a log of valve cloggings and electronic malfunctions, I could probably figure it out for myself, buy the part at the parts store, and put it in. But then again that would end this little circle of "pay me and I'll tell you what part is broken" wouldn't it?
I suppose I've just been to too many automotive shops (the $60/hr ones) where they charge me a full hour to hook my car up to a cable for 10 minutes... and then still can't fix the car properly, $500 and several parts later. Codes or not, the best mechanics I've been to never had scanners, and just knew the cars and the problems that they have as they progress though their lifetimes. Think of how much better they'd be if they could have the car tell them what it "thinks" the problem is.
Re:I have some experience here.... (Score:2)
error codes (Score:2, Informative)
Wrong approach: no need for new laws (Score:3, Insightful)
This is what makes too many laws. There is already a solution in place, the citizens and representatives just need to use them:
Re:Wrong approach: no need for new laws (Score:2)
I might point out that it requires some very strong evidence, not just the observation that they are behaving publicly as a cartel.
If public behaviour were sufficent, you could sue the major oil companies. Ever notice how all their unrelated gas stations are adjusting their prices on the same day, always to within a couple of pennies of each other? That is cartel like behaviour. However because the managers of the various gas stations do not talk with each other, and come to an agreement ahead of time, providing each station with a schedule of when to adjust prices, and by how much, they are not defined as a cartel.
There are other reasons for the price changes happening as they do. Reasons like the amount each station is paying for gasoline delivered. The fact that the manager of one station observes that the manager of another station has dropped that station's prices and drivers are going to that station now.
Likewise for delership mechanics having "proprietary" information. That "fact" is not sufficient to take a collection of car companies to court for acting as a cartel. However it is very much cartel like behaviour.
-Rusty
Let's count the FUD (Score:4, Interesting)
Fud #1:
"From a business standpoint, it's diluting our franchise" to make the codes public, he said. "A franchise becomes meaningless."
I'm not even sure what that means, but it sounds scary. We can't have meaningless franchises! The whole system will break down, and then who'll fix your car, huh?
Fud #2:
William Abraham, executive vice president of the Greater Metropolitan Automobile Dealers Association of Minnesota, said that manufacturers "want it to be repaired right the first time. . . . All things being equal, they'd rather have you repair them at a dealership because they know they can get the job done right."
Translation: independent mechanics are scam artists who will leave your car in worse shape than they found it. We can't have them using our codes, that would be like endorsing them to ruin your car and rip you off. And you don't want that, do you? Never mind, of course, that dealer mechanics work on a pay system where the less time they spend fixing your car, the more money they make, and the least profitable jobs go to the worst mechanics. Now that's a system you can endorse!
Fud #3:
Lambert, of the car dealers association, said there is no evidence that independent repair shops are being driven out of business, and he said that consumers enjoy "a wealth of options." He said that no products are more regulated than automobiles, adding that manufacturers must be concerned with safety equipment, recalls and warranties.
There's two in here. 1) These codes are hurting independents? Prove it! Sure pal, right after I prove global warming when Antartica becomes a beach resort. Stall long enough, and there won't be any independent mechanics around to raise a fuss. 2) We're regulated, so you can be sure the government is making sure the system is fair. Oh, please. See US vs. Microsoft.
Fud #3:
They have a right, I think, to restrict who has access to all of that technology," he said. "Otherwise, they're left with people they don't have any relationship with working on vehicles that they're still responsible for."
Of course the manufacturers don't have a relationship with the independent mechanics -- the manufacturers deliberately refused to establish one to keep you away from them! If they started sharing the codes, then they would have a relationship, now wouldn't they? And you know what? I have a better relationship with my mechanic than with the dealer! But apparently that relationship isn't important (or maybe it is, that's why the dealers are trying to break it).
Fud #3:
"The old garage mechanic is gone," he said. "In fact, the term 'mechanic' is gone. They're called technicians now. These people have to be very intelligent people. They're working on computers, and it's a high-tech industry.
Of course, the guy from the dealer association said that customers have lots of "options", and that there's no evidence the mechanics are in trouble. Now, having assuaged our concern for the little guy, this other dude says that they don't even exist anymore anyhow. Pay no attention to that shop that says "Main St. Auto Repair" down the block. He's just a gorilla in overalls that couldn't possibly understand how to read a number from a screen, and look it up in a book that says, "water pump is failing." That's way too sophistamacated for a dumb schmoe like that. Forget that he has twenty years of experience and the dealer guy is some kid fresh out of a technical school (see Unix admins vs. MSCEs).
How many times have you heard someone ask, "when your Linux server breaks, who are you gonna call?"
FUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFU DFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDF UDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUD FUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFU
What? (Score:2)
Say it isn't so!
One way to protest (Score:2)
If you don't see the problem with secret repair codes, would you buy a computer with diagnostic codes that were kept secret in order to force you to return it to the factory for repair at exorbitant rates?
gee, why does this remind me of "share the APIs"? (Score:2)
The auto makers should share the codes for the same reason Microsoft should share the (internal) APIs: openness fosters fairness and competition, which is good for the consumer.
Hopefully, someone will point this out to the congress-critters, and the analogy might finally turn on the light in their heads about software.
Re:gee, why does this remind me of "share the APIs (Score:2)
Cartels are good (Score:5, Insightful)
Could he be any more condescending?
It is interesting (Score:5, Insightful)
What is it? Is it because auto mechanics is an easier bussiness to understand? Are they better organized? Or is it because the small automechanic is an old institution.
Re:It is interesting (Score:2)
It's because there are *more* small town auto mechanics than small-town "software developers." More people use their services, and more people even tinker at home with their cars.
I'd be willing to guess that the percentages of the relative populations (of computer users and car drivers) that do personal or semiprofessional maintenance is at least a few % in the car's favor.
Dirty Little Secret (Score:5, Interesting)
Dealerships do two types of repairs:
Customer Pay, and Warranty pay. As a way to protect consumers from questionable hourly billing, shops use a refrence book that tells them about how many hours a job will take. This book is how your estimate is determined (plus or minus whatever the service writer thinks they can get out of you)
What you're not told is that customer pay jobs
are often quoted TWICE the time alocated for warranty jobs. Very few mechanics like warranty jobs unless it's something that they have a really good shortcut around (i.e. A faster way to replace an engine than the shop manual shows)
Since automakers tell the dealerships how much they will pay for warranty jobs, Dealerships tend to make up for it by overcharging for customer pay jobs (via padding the quoted labor times)
So who gets screwed?
Not the automakers...
They sell more replacement parts when they can eliminate independant shops and
aftermarket parts. Independant shops tend to buy more aftermarket parts than OEM parts.
Not the Dealerships...
The dealership mechanics don't like to give up their "gravy" jobs like brakes & transmission services to Independant shops because those gravy jobs are what help them compensate for warranty work. Dearership owners feel the same way. For a given week, if mechanic 1 can replace 10 customer pay transmissions, and mechanic 2 can replace the same number of warranty transmissions, Mechanic 1 just earned the dealership twice as much and without all the BS warranty paperwork.
Independant shops get screwed.
Common sense. They can't compete because automakers are trying everything they can to get customers to come to them for all their needs. Independant shops must then rely on oil changes & mufflers to make their money, and there's too much competition there because it doesn't involve as much training. There isn't nearly as much money to be made changing oil as there can be for drivability & electrical stuff. The little shops must do a lot more little tests that the Non-OBD2 codes provide. How can a little shop compete?
Customers get screwed.
Mainly because competition is eliminated.
Don't expect to see any improvement either.
CNN headline news has been reporting that there will be a shortage of about 200,000 mechanics by the year 2010. Expect to see dealerships take advantage of that and watch labor rates and times skyrocket.
Re:Dirty Little Secret (Score:3, Insightful)
Which brings up an interesting point, which is that aftermarket parts tend to be poorly manufactured and need to be replaced sooner than the factory equivalent.
This is a generalization, and like all of them, it is false. OEM parts do tend to be high quality, but that doesn't mean the aftermarket parts are not. Some aftermarket parts are better, some worse.
Many OEM parts are not made by the OEM, they are made by some other company, who slaps the OEM name on the first 1000 parts off the assembly line, and then their name on the rest they make that day. Often one assembly line will make the same part (which may or may not be the same quality) for several different manufactures. Manufatures outsource a lot of this because a company that focuses on just one part can often make that part cheaper and better. Sometimes the buyer will order parts with lower quality, othertimes it is exactly the same. As and example, 80percent of all spark plugs are made by Champion for example, they put whatever name the buyer wants on it.
I have used both OEM and non-OEM parts. When there isn't a cost difference OEM is a good way to be sure. When there is you need to check out quality, if there is a choice on quality or price stores will warn you and give you a choice.
EULA (Score:2, Funny)
It brings new meaning to the term "24-month lease".
-ez
Many ECUs One in the Same (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not entirely sure about whether or not the problem is the manufacturers' reluctance to supply codes. Perhaps they have a contract or something with the supplier of the ECUs to keep things hush-hush. Not only do the manufacturers make out by requiring service at their garage with their advanced tools, but the ECU supplier stays safe from the competition by not having all the details of their system easily divulged.
OBD scanning (Score:2)
I was at AutoZone the other day... (Score:2, Informative)
This [autozone.com] pretty much sums it all up. They offer FREE code retrieval.
Back when I had a Jeep Wrangler, I bought a Haynes service manual that showed me what its codes were. I could easily obtain the error messages through a morse-code system.
To see what the diagnostic computer felt was wrong, you turned the ignition key so that it went off/on/of/on/of/on. After the third and final "on," the check engine light would flash a certain number of times, which corresponded to a specific problem code.
flash - flash - flash
*pause*
flaah - flash - flash
... that would mean 33. 33 stood for Air Conditioning, IIRC. That code would always come back since my Jeep didn't have an A/C unit plugged into the diagnostic box.
Anyways... the Jeep was a '91. I miss it so much.
*tear*
Getting Chrysler computer codes: (Score:2)
ECM (ALDL) There is Trouble Codes and Serial Data (Score:2, Informative)
Not about cars: it's about software (Score:3, Insightful)
This is NOT about cars, this is about software and about interchange formats!
I hope this law makes it: this will be the grounds for asking for a law that forces Microsoft et al. to open their document format.
Today, independent programmers cannot perform services for their customers because large software makers hide the specifications for document formats. This means that an independent programmer cannot properly access and service the customer's database/spreadsheet/file without specialized tools that he would be required to buy from the software maker. This, in fact, amounts to some degree of cartelization, in so far as only programmers "licensed" by the software maker have access to these tools, in what amounts to a cartel. By effectively preventing independent programmers from obtaining revenue from services, this situation limits choice for consumers and harms many independent programmers, who are sometimes the sole financial support for their family.
This about it. This may be the way to go.
Two stories... (Score:4, Interesting)
First story. I was on vacation at the Grand Canyon's South rim, and the plan was to head to the North Rim. While that is only a few miles as the neutrino flies, it's about 150 miles by road. Furthurmore, the South Rim is pretty damn far from anything else. So, I get into my car (a 1997 Grand Marquis that had just had its 100kMile service) and lo and behold, the "Overdrive OFF" indicator starts flashing - a fault has been detected in the automatic transmission. Between having the "Check Engine" light come on or this, I'll pick the "Check Engine" light any day - you can troubleshoot an engine in the field, and generally most engine failures are "limp home" failures. A tranny failure tends to be a "walk home" moment.
After poking, prodding, and checking, the light goes out. No explaination. So, we head off for the North Rim. 80 miles from anywhere the tranny goes "thump", the light flashes, and I curse. I managed to get to civilization, rent a UHaul truck and car trailer, and tow my car home. The dealership tells me the ATF had started to break down - they flushed it and changed the filter.
Now, BECAUSE the South Rim is so far from anywhere, and because so many vehicles go there, there is a service shop there. Had the car been able to tell me "Clutch #2 slippage detected - possible fluid breakdown" I could have gone to the shop at the South Rim, had the fluid changed, and gone on without having my plans screwed up. Instead, I paid US$900 to tow my car home, and US$200 for the service.
Second story: A couple of months later, I was going to work. I turned the key, and the "Check Engine" light stayed on. I checked the oil, listens for strange noises, and said "Emissions problem, not serious, call the dealer." Sure enough, the dealership read the codes, and said "Transient failure to pull a vacuum on the fuel tank vapor recovery - It's not showing now. Keep an eye on it. And damn guy, but according to this you've hit the rev limiter on this thing! How fast were you GOING?" Cost: $150. Had I been able to read the codes, I could have cleared it and kept an eye on it.
Third story: A few weeks later, I was heading home, pulled out from a stop, and the tranny said "bang" and the "Overdrive OFF" indicator began to blink. It turns out the fluid had gone bad BECAUSE the #2 clutch had failed. US$1300 later, I have a rebuild in place. I took the car to a tranny shop nearby, rather than the dealership. As I was demonstrating the failure to the mechanic (at that point, it was still intermittant) I commented "Yeah, I know how hard it is to troubleshoot intermittant failures - I am a software engineer". His immediate response: "Maybe you could write some software for us that would work on all of these cars!"
Conclusion: There is a clear harm to the consumer by the practices of the auto manufacturers, who together are acting in an anti-competitive and monopolistic fashion. I hope we CAN make them play nice (imagine a nice GTK front-end for diagnostics....)
Re:That's all fine and dandy... (Score:2)
Disclaimer: I am the owner of said vehicle
The biggest U.S. wealth redistribution (Score:2, Interesting)
Now here's the income redistribution part. 17% or so of every tax dollar taken in by the IRS is spent to pay the interest on those trillions of dollars of tax-cut spawned debt. Year after year since the middle '80's, 17 percent of our country's gross revenue is peeled off and sent to...
Bond holders. When the Guv, in our name, can't raise enough money to pay for bread and tanks and roads, it has to borrowed. Usually this is done through bonds, paper bought by investors, both in the U.S. and abroad, which will earn interest year by year.
We pipe tens of billions of dollars of our income every year to very wealthy individuals and institutions. A great deal of the wealth in this nation is generated by that distribution. It's better than a gold mine, better than real estate.
Multiply this yearly welfare payment by about 21 years. We have, in the name of tax cuts, pumped hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars into the pockets of people who could afford to buy all those bonds and float all those loans. A goodly number of them are offshore... just about anyone can buy our money-making debt. To be really awestruck, adjust those dollars for inflation and recalculate what wealth we have transferred for a few bucks off our taxes.
Is it no wonder that wealthy people love tax breaks and don't mind a massive debt? Hell, I knew of an economics professor who straight-out declared that reducing or eliminating the national debt would spread destabilization around the world -- and he was right. Investors around the world love the money pump! It's like a rain of gold that will never end.
Now, for an exercise, compare the amount spent on debt service, which goes to wealthy/well off debt owners, to the amounts spent on aid for dependent children or Head Start. It's pitiful. The spending on our debt to the enrichment of the very well to do dwarfs anything we spend on the poor or schools.
The debt and deficit spending due to tax cuts are the biggest wealth redistribution scam in the history of mankind.