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802.11b Urban Network - 3 sq km! 182

Posted by Hemos from the spreading-the-net-wide dept.
wireless junkie writes "NZ Herald has an article about a 3 sq km wireless network. Roaming, seamless handoff, VoIP, and its only the demonstration network. 100 sq/km coming soon (according to the RoamAD site) MiniStumbler on an iPaq shows a whole heap of signal on and near downtown Queen Street. All I want for Christmas..."
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802.11b Urban Network - 3 sq km! More

802.11b Urban Network - 3 sq km!

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  • Christmas? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 27, 2002 @03:37PM (#4151728)
    All I want for Christmas...
    ... is a wireless network with absolutely no security so people can walk within a 3km diameter space and just hack in on a whim?
    • It's not so much the wireless network per se. It's more the connectivity to the rest of the world you want to secure- and that includes the laptops and other machines that are hanging off of the wireless network.

      Still, the same is true of the internet.

      Connecting to internet == connecting to wireless net

    • From the article: RoamAD operates with a multitude of encryption protocols in conjunction with its proprietary authentication systems that provides a genuinely secure wireless connection
      So we can't say that there is absolutely no security, but we also can't say that there security is any good either unless we get to look at it, which we probably can't since it's proprietary.
    • ... is an ISP who doesn't secure MY home computers so people can log on for a low monthly fee and just hack in on a whim.

      This isn't some person's private network... This is an experiment in making a large-scale wireless network to cover a city-scale area or beyond. Think of it as something similar to Ricochet. And if you use it, it's up to you to secure your machine... if you leave it unsecure, sure, someone will hack in.

      I'm wondering how they limit down access to this network, so only paying subscribers can get on. Will it be PPPoE? Or maybe MAC address-based authentication (only specified MAC addresses are allowed to get onto these access points). How do they do this on a large scale with >1000 users? Most access points only handle a couple hundred MAC address for that type of access.

      Sounds like a great idea though. Imagine eventually this 802.11b network spanning an entire continent, with little to no roaming or coverage gaps. It should be good for at least 5 years, until the average Internet feed for a home user becomes >11 Mbps, then they'll be needing to replace the infrastructure (or be smart now and just make the whole infrastructure combination 802.11a and b access point, to handle the 55 Mbps 802.11a gives).
    • A global network that doesnt allow vigilante/dissident/terrorist companies to hack it.... Be it lines or wireless...
  • Do we now need to institute a no pr0n surfing while driving law?
  • That's a lot of Pringles cans. Do they even sell Pringles in New Zealand?

  • UNITS!!! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by smnolde ( 209197 ) on Tuesday August 27, 2002 @03:40PM (#4151757) Homepage
    I wish you programming fucknuts figure out how to use units... we've lost a lot of expensive space equipment because dumb software engineers.

    km^2 (square kilometers) != sq/km (square/kilometer)

    And if only the slashdot editors would... shit, i'm preaching to the choir, aren't I.

    • Re:UNITS!!! (Score:2, Funny)

      by zobier ( 585066 )
      I wish you wrote correct sentence.
    • What the hell is a "square" and how confusing could it be when it's obvious from the context that the units being expressed are for area?

      Seriously, what does the unit "square" measure? I've never heard of it.
    • km^2 = kilometers squared
      sq/km = square kilometers

      2 km^2 = 4 square kilometers.
  • I can see pop ups advertising nearby businesses. As you're walking down the street, your laptop beeps and says, "Big sale at Tutles, Girdles and Yo-Yos on your right...."
    • Shit. I wish. Do you know what a complete pain in the ass it is to get a hold of a good yo-yo anymore? Yeah, you've got to order them online! I went to 8 different toy stores the other day trying to find a Duncan Freehand 2. Only ONE store had anything resembling a yo-yo, and it was just a vanilla Playmaxx wood axle ProYo. Sigh.
  • This is great and all, and by all means, more power to him. But i leave in the middle of a corn field about 10 miles from anything. I really just want to get cable. Highspeed internet is only a dream to me. I guess thats why i go to college...

    • You need Pringles cans!

      Get 9 cans. Set up 8 of 'em together at 45-degree angles, so they form a "wireless hub". Connect them all together and you can communicate in a 5-mile radius of your location. Now just find someone within that range who can get high-speed Internet access, and use the 9th Pringles can to connect to them.

      Then you could offer wireless access to others through your "hub", and all chip in for the cost of the service.

      • I am busting my butt trying to get people in Houston interested in something like this. Except, of course, that the ninth can doesn't point to an internet access point, but to another hub. And maybe the same for the tenth and eleventh cans too.

  • sq/km? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Imabug ( 2259 ) on Tuesday August 27, 2002 @03:43PM (#4151793) Homepage Journal
    what kind of unit is a sq/km?

    seriously now...this sounds kind of neat. cellular WiFi in a sense.

    i wonder what kind of interference it would cause to other devices on the same frequency (other WiFI devices not associated with their network, cordless phones, etc).

    and wouldn't this make drive by hacking easier? heck, you don't even need to drive by.

    I wonder how bandwidth changes with distance from the transmitters.
    • > what kind of unit is a sq/km?

      It's the inverse of km^2. 1 sq/km is a square with side length of one kilometer. This unit of measurement is odd in that it increases as the area described decreases, but it's popular in Bizarro World and on Slashdot Island (where hamburgers eat you, and people throw ducks at balloons, and caching is impossible, and trying to moderate fairly gets you banned. Huzzah!) Therefore 3 sq/km is 1/3 km^2. What the article describes is 3 km^2, which translates to 1/3 sq/km -- that's the real typo in this article's title, not the units. No...no, not the units. What? Fifty dollars? Getoutaheeee...

    • Im already a serious culprit of drive by printing here in LA. I just drive up....find a printer...install a generic HP driver....and print out a 50-60 page document of fluff.

      Uh...who printed the entire Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series on the HP 4100 in full duplex?
    • That would be a unit of area.

  • 801.11 Standard (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Gaggme ( 594298 ) on Tuesday August 27, 2002 @03:44PM (#4151814) Homepage Journal
    I'm wondering if a public networking system is really worth the risk. By offering a public service, you simple open so many problems caused by unadept users, malicous users, and abuse. Broadband is an excellent tool to be used, however the nightmare of getting everyone hooked up correctly, not to mention managing to keep those users connected must be a nightmare.

    By offering it as a wide user base, it allows a malicous user to have a network of people to choose from. Due to the general publics disregard of security, updates and firewalls, this make them sitting ducks to becoming pawns for a Denial of service attack. How long would it be before hackers have a huge network of computers to do their bidding, by simply making a few stokes of the pen on his PDA?
    • Yes, but what does 802.11 have to do with that? It's not like the internet doesn't have more malicious users than you could pack into 3 sq km. And it's a lot harder to track someone who could be anywhere in the world than it would be to track someone in a 3 sq km area.

    • Insightful? Gaggme with a spoon.

      I'm wondering if a public networking system is really worth the risk. By offering a public service, you simple open so many problems caused by unadept users, malicous users, and abuse. Broadband is an excellent tool to be used, however the nightmare of getting everyone hooked up correctly, not to mention managing to keep those users connected must be a nightmare.
      By offering it as a wide user base, it allows a malicous user to have a network of people to choose from. Due to the general publics disregard of security, updates and firewalls, this make them sitting ducks to becoming pawns for a Denial of service attack. How long would it be before hackers have a huge network of computers to do their bidding, by simply making a few stokes of the pen on his PDA?

      Nobody better tell this guy about the existing network of dial-up nodes that pervades almost every corner of every country on the planet...

      That shares with this one the need for client authentication, the prevalence of users with little knowledge of security, and the tendency of machines to come on and off the network.

      The only particularly significant difference, which will hopefully be mitigated by development and adoption of effective encryption, and which in the meantime has little relevance to the substance of the comment, is the relative ease of snooping.

    • Well, I, for instance, currently operate a public 802.11 node in Seattle. It has a DHCP server listening on it to pass out ip addresses with full internet access. The only access-control on that network is some restrictions in place to keep wireless users from accessing my internal network, and only inbound established tcp sessions allowed.. (to prevent my next door neighbour from running a warez server off my bandwidth. :) The only other piece of "access-control" is an HTTP proxy-authentication piece that wifi users just login with "public/public" to get internet access. No logging, no tracking, nothing, nada. So if you want to hack the gubbmint from my home network, well, then I guess I'm just up shit's creek.

      I am willing to accept the fact that not everyone will be kind in their usage of my public offering. By sharing something that I believe everyone should have access to, it makes me feel a bit better knowing that I have helped out the global community as a whole.

  • Wifi Zealot (Score:4, Funny)

    by stud9920 ( 236753 ) on Tuesday August 27, 2002 @03:48PM (#4151855)
    ..he just LOVES shared medium.

    1)Today, Wifi Zealot wants to test his new ultra wide wifi 2

    2)Wifi Zealot heads for his local $tarbuck$

    3)Unfortunately, the connection has to be shared with 120 Mac Biggots, 120 Linux Zealots and 200 fat MSCE neighbours

    4)Linux Zealot explains WiFi Zealot that after all 75bPs is pretty 7331 and just enough for surfing gopher.
    --
    moderators : Linux Zealot is a linux zealot who appears frequently on adequacy [adequacy.org]

    • Re:Wifi Zealot (Score:3, Funny)

      by cdrudge ( 68377 )
      ...and just enough for surfing gopher

      What is this gopher you are talking about? Is that like a new plugin for my IE internet browser? Can I download MP3s on it since my Napster connection has been down lately?

      • What is this gopher you are talking about? Is that like a new plugin for my IE internet browser? Can I download MP3s on it since my Napster connection has been down lately?

        It's kinda like the Lnyx Wide Web - it's more efficient. Type in ' lynx microsoft.com' and you'll see what I meen. It's the same old Microsoft.com but with 50% less anti-trust. 'lynx slashdot.com' even has less speloing errors!
    • ..he just LOVES shared medium.
      That's what traffic shaping is for, isn't it...?
    • I use BeOS [bebits.com], so u can suck it!!!
      -D

  • Recently investigated GPRS / CDCP (Score:4, Insightful)

    by topham ( 32406 ) on Tuesday August 27, 2002 @03:49PM (#4151864) Homepage
    Recently I investigated GPRS availability where I live.

    I can switch to a GSM network (Rogers/AT&T is rolling out GSM as we speak) and get 53kbps of always-on internet. Not fantastic, but not bad.

    Unfortunatly they charge per Kilobyte. Yes. You heard me, Per Kilobyte. Even a few cents per K it adds up quick and becomes pointless.

    Ok, so check out another provider. Ok, GSM/GPRS service as well. Always on, blah blah, $50/month unlimited. Ok, good deal. fine print: for 12 months. After that, who knows? They revert to their regular rates(?), which aren't any better than Roger/AT&T.

    Ok, so how about CDCP? Hmm, about $50/month but it's 19200 Maximum. They add compression, but that won't solve the whole speed issue. And of course, only works with appriopriate modem, dead end technology, etc.

    No wonder these companies can't recover costs... nobody will pay the rates they want.

    • When you use GPRS downunder, the bill shows you which tower you connect to and how much data got transfered.
  • Considering the availability of huge fucking 3G networks [verizonwireless.com]. Highspeed wireless shit that is available in even towns less than 120,000 population [monetmobile.com].
    • Uhm... WiFi is WAY faster than 3G. I can set up a WiFi extension to my existing network for about $500. Can't do that with 3G (GPRS/GSM what have you).

      WEP has security issues, but none that can't be overcome with some creativity (VPN perhaps?).

      BTW, WiFi is broadband, 3G is not.

      Geez....

      PS Nice Troll
      • True 3G is broadband, the soup of 2.5G that the US will get is barely broadband. 802.11b is 11Mb/s on a 2.4Ghz carrier. 802.11a is suprisingly(from the name anyways) a newer and faster protocol that achieves 54Mb/s with a 5.2Ghz carrier. 802.11g uses the same encoding as 802.11a but over a 2.4Ghz carrier and also achieves 54Mb/s but has to share the airwaves with 802.11b and everything else in the 2.4Ghz ISM band. All speeds are raw wire speeds and actual throughput will be roughly half to two thirds wire speed in ideal circumstances. At fringe reception distances all protocols will drop speeds to some fraction of the rated speed. Having too many devices on a channel or close together will also cause backoff storms similar to a broadcast storm on unswitched ethernet.
    • My dear Mr. L00zer,

      3G is low speed and it doesn't exist everywhere, nor will it be ubiquitous. There are a few popular places where companies are trying to roll it out, but the overall cost is somewhere north of $100 billion to get major cities hooked up.

      3G is microcell based, meaning that you have relatively high power transmission compared with Wi-Fi, but large enough cells that you have a lot of people sharing a very few available channels. Thus when more than a handful of people are using 3G data services, the 100 Kbps or 300 Kbps or whatever they claim today as a maximum is split down into 3K chunks.

      With Wi-Fi, because it's picocell, tiny itty bitty cells, you can typically increase density (and the equipment's cheaper and requires fewer towers or other spots to make work) and keep overall bandwidth closer to the 4 Mbps that most devices throughput.
  • This is good news. I have really been missing the BBS times! Now that these wireless unlicensed spectrum miracles keep pouring in, we wil soon be in the position to have enough users to drop down the bandwidth to effectively emulate the Hayes Micromodem 100 [syssrc.com]. Excellent!
    • You are kinda on to something...

      For those of you old enough, remember when it seemed like every town (even the small ones) had at least one BBS to dial into, and inter-node email through FIDOnet at night (long distance rates being cheaper)? Couldn't something similar to this be done with WiFi? Hear me out:

      Imagine if every individual set up a WiFi hub node, with some kind of high-gain omni, and kept it open. This hub is connected to a web server - and NOTHING ELSE. It isn't connected to broadband, or even to the individuals home network (or only through a good firewall). Basically, it is a lone machine.

      Others set up similar machines, people in the immediate neighborhood (both fixed and mobile stumblers) could "connect" at leisure, just like the old BBS's - except without needing major numbers of phone lines, etc. Maybe the website on the server could show how to build such a system cheaply, where other nodes are, and where intermediate nodes are needed to bridge gaps in an area. These nodes could then form a more "permanent" mesh.

      Ok, perhaps this is what is basically happenning already - but what many of them do is have broadband connections that aren't legally allowed to share. I guess what I am aiming for is more of a return to the grassroots local scene, and perhaps certain nodes could be "volunteers" to "FIDOnet" (just the term - not actual protocols, of course) packages of emails, etc, across the internet via broadband/etc connections in bursts, to other nodes that could disseminate the contents of the package. IE, make it as legal as possible - but still "open/free"?

      • $#()$#!($#!@

        THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET PEOPLE IN HOUSTON TO DO FOR MONTHS.

        Help me! I am trying everything I can think of to get people to participate in something like this. I get everything from "that's illegal!", "if it worked, why isn't it here?", and "yeah, until they start charging per month" to "wireless sucks, my uncle bob tried to do it in his steel shed and it didn't work, loser".

        I am even willing to personally finance the first few hubs, just to get some momentum, but I just can't find anyone that cares.
    • Here's a good point. Back in the day, it *WAS* possibly to hack BBS's. Most of the time it wasn't all that easy, since there wasn't an internet full of script-kiddy solutions or a buttload of docs, but at times it was done. And yes, BBS's did prevail.

      Having large local Wireless networks doesn't sound like such a hugely bad idea, provided that somebody is willing to pick up the tab for the access, and maintain the security. Knowledgable hackers will probably get in for free, but that's true to a lot of situations.
      Doors and locks only keep honest people honest...

      perhaps the WiFi script kiddies should dedicate some time to learning how to create security instead of break it, it might get them some local recognition, and looks better on a resume...

  • It's not that new... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Zakabog ( 603757 )
    Why is this even news? Wireless internet access that you have to pay for? Hasn't that been around for a while. There's also been free wireless internet access in other cities for a while, here's one in NYC http://www.nycwireless.net [nycwireless.net] I haven't gone down there with my laptop and wireless network card yet but I'm sure it's probably very fast. Although you probably can't do anything fun (like share warez) because they would probably block certain ports (or wonder what this one person is using all the bandwidth for.) The NYC Wireless site has links to other places for free wireless internet access also. There's also people who just setup there own wireless internet access for the block or neighborhood. Letting everyone share there connection, for free. I guess it's news because it's going to be 100sq km, but I can drive across Manhatten and stay online the whole time, there are some huge wireless networks available already.
    • There's also people who just setup there own wireless internet access for the block or neighborhood. Letting everyone share there connection, for free.

      That's a hell of a job they're pulling there then, because I have troubles to get the signal clear in my living room from a 10 meters distance (with two walls of reinforced concrete between the gateway and the livingroom and a intel wireless gateway).
      I don't understand how people can make such long distances, they must use very expensive gateways then or many "cheap" ones!
      • I'm at the end of my street right nowtwo cisco cards at ~100m still have 90% signal strength, thats through 7 houses...

        In wifi you definatly get what you pay for, and there is a reason you save >50% on "other" brands

  • Ok I'll bite (Score:2, Insightful)

    by damien_kane ( 519267 )
    To all you morons complaining (in almost every thread currently) that sq/km is not a measurement of area, you're right.
    The problem is (and i've seen 4 of these already) that you're defining it as a count of something per unit of area.

    A km is NOT a unit of area measurement, it is a unit of linear measurement... Single mono-dimensional geometry here people. I know you USians have trouble with the metric system, but c'mon... not being able to tell the difference between a square kilometre and a kilometre is like not being able to tell the difference between an mile and a sqaure mile.

    Quit complaining when you can't even get it right...

    PS. I may have spelled kilometre wrong, depending on which spelling of the word you use (i.e. kilometer)
    • Single mono-dimensional geometry

      Sorry I meant 'Simple' mono-dimensional geometry
    • Here is what i do know...

      First, it's Americans!!!
      Second, the only time we use the metric system at all is for drugs, and that's just weight measurment. This whole length thing is confusing...
      • No, it's only "Americans" to those of you in the US.
        To the rest of the world (including much of Canada, where I'm from) it's USians.
        I am (North) American, people in Brazil are (South) American. I, for one, don't appreciate being forced onto the same level as you just because I live on the same land mass as you.

        And yeah, I can see how the metric system may be difficult for you, I've always found base 10 systems difficult myself. All that adding a zero or removing a zero just to go up/down (respectively) in an order of magnitude is so confusing.
        5280 ft/mile is so much easier than 1000 metres/kilometre...
    • between an mile and a sqaure mile.
      ...

      PS. I may have spelled kilometre wrong, depending on which spelling of the word you use (i.e. kilometer)

      Apologizing for spelling kilometer wrong is fine, but you should also apologize for "sqaure" ;-)
  • Yea, until Starbucks [slashdot.org] decides to crash the network with its own pay service on the same band.

  • I live in a big city, Chicago. For me it does not seem that the last mile is problem for high speed internet access, but rather the last few hundred feet. Luckily I have DSL, but I know that it isn't going to get much faster for a while.

    During the last few years cable companies and the like spent a lot of money laying the backbone of their networks. In the city the last part was getting old buildings wired. This to me seems like a bigger expense.

    A you have to interact with the customer a lot. Schedule times, get access to the building, etc. Then somehow wire the thing.

    I think an easier solution would be for these high speed providers to hook up key buildings in neighboor hoods with good wireless equipment. Then ship the modems in the mail to the customer and they are all set to go.

    Eventaully we need to start fiber or at least cat 5 through these building. Or rather run piping so re-wiring in the future isn't such a problem, time for new building codes.

    For rural customers, I would think a chain approach might be the best. House 1 is hooked up high speed and then relays to the next and so on and so on. Of course being on the end of the chain is no fun, but it might be faster then dialup.

  • I dislike the fact that this seems to be little more than advertising promo echoed by slashdot. I have no interest in deploying a proprietary extension to 802.11b when folks like NoCat.net, nyc wireless, personal telco, and so on are all trying to provide wide area access within the 802.11b published standard. I'd think the Ciscos and Linksyses of the world would be more interested in solving the multihop networking problems within the 802.11b standard and open the results up for others to use, so that they can sell more radios.

    In my opinion, any company that sells a proprietary extension to a standard will most likely fail, esp. when the standard is free (free spectrum, free implementations, just buy the radio). After all, there are plenty of better, proprietary networking standards, but we all use TCP/IP.

    • The stardard (802.11b) is fundementally flawed, though. Proprietary or not, someone will have to step in and do something about it, and if there is a financial incentive to do so, they will do it sooner.

      <BLATENT PLUG>

      Enter the company I work for =) [meshnetworks.com]. We have a software overlay that sits on 802.11b and allows for multi-hop, etc. It uses feedback from the card to find the best path back to an AP through multiple hops, at the highest datarate possible. I've been deploying a beta version of our software in-house, and although I may be a bit biased, it really is a boon for WiFi. Seamless handoff, multihop, the works.

      I might also point out we have a solution that supports mobility at highway speeds. From what little RF theory I know, doppler shift will kill 802.11b at anything over walking speeds. I routinely demo this technology to different companies on a local highway. And I can promise this, the tagline "T1 in your pocket" is all too apt. Even if driving around can be monotonous, reading /. while listening to internet radio (what's left, at least) at 70 MPH helps.

      <BLATENT PLUG>

      I might also point out that there is a project for Linux called MobileMesh [mitre.org] that is doing a lot of this for Linux. There you go, open source and everything =).

  • Citynets (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bwt ( 68845 ) on Tuesday August 27, 2002 @04:34PM (#4152211)
    Pretty soon people will be able to set up a CityNet: imagine everybody gathering together on a common IP subnet just like your home LAN except that it's multiple people who show up anonymously by simply setting their IP to within a particular submask.

    This has got to be the RIAA absolute worst nightmare. With the Internet if you set up a service that an anonymous person can find and download files from, then so can they and they send you a C&D letter. With multi-user anonymous LANs, not only would they have to have a presense in each city, but even if they do, once they know that IP 198.168.31.331 is trading the whole Metallica collection, they have no way to track you down.

    Medium range wireless offers an opportunity to remove, at least locally, the last barrier to a truly free internet : corporate/government regulation of the backbone.
  • Netstumbler + 802.11b = Internet access in most every location.

    I know a rep from a computer company who just came from Boston down to our office in Connecticut to advertise some of his latest line. He always has his Netstumbler w/GPS running on the road, and when someone calls him, he just looks at NetStumbler to see where the nearest access point he has previously passed is, and heads there... the just pulls over, hops on their network, and uses his VPN connection to do the rest. He said the farthest he usually has to travel on the MassPike to find a hotspot is 10 minutes away. Not much along the 395 corridor yet, though.

    Granted, these are corporate networks that aren't using WEP, and ethically he SHOULDN'T be getting on their networks.

    Now if something like an ISP or maybe a company like this one in New Zealand were offering similar service for mobile users like him, or if the cell companies would quit advertising 3G and actually IMPLEMENT it for mobile users to use with laptops in this area and at a reasonable price (say, all the Internet you can browse for $49.95/month), then there wouldn't be any ethical issues.
  • Our wireless network has 35km range from our central tower....


    NewGenWireless.net

    P.S., We setup other ISP networks too.
  • shouldn't it be 802.11 UBER network?
  • First Citylink, now this, it seems that New Zealand totally rocks...
    • You obviously haven't experienced either of our 2 (one ADSL supplier, one cable supplier) major residential broadband services.

      128bps ADSL with a 5Mb limit anyone? Or 512kbps cable with a 1Mb limit?

      At least the food's good ;-)
  • It's very rare to see a Slashdot post about an event far away without hearing from an on-site participant. The press release went out about this new service down in Kiwi-ville, and some of the specs they describe seem, well, a little difficult to swallow as they exceed some of the physics and technology that major manufacturers are employing.

    Any Kiwis read Slashdot and can confirm coverage? Or is this Slashdot-by-press-release?
  • For you Linux users out there, who can't run NetStumbler, check out Kismet [kismetwireless.net].

    I've never ran NetStumbler, but it finds access points, has GPS support, makes maps, and will run on Linux PDA's (iPAQ, Zaurus).
  • I sense the bumper sticker: "Log Off and Drive."

    --
  • The RoamAD network utilizes proprietary propagation algorithms and multipoint-to-multipoint network architecture.

    RoamAD has succeeded in extending and enhancing the utility and performance of 802.11b, while maintaining its integrity and compatibility with the 802.11b standard being built into millions of mobile devices around the world.

    Uhh, there's nothing "proprietary" about any of this. It works with all the little WiFi devices we already have. These geniuses just built a backbone to connect all their "multipoint" WiFi access points together. Whoopee.

  • it's a pity those 3km (in my city of auckland) are only safe for geeks with laptops during business hours.. i pity the fool who sits down on a fridays night on queen st with a laptop and expects to be carrying it home in the morning.

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