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Technology

PC that acts like a TV 163

Posted by CmdrTaco from the start-of-a-trend dept.
An anonymous reader writes "CNN is reporting on the newest HP Media Center PC, a PC that "acts like a TV". Seems to me it is a TIVO with some additional features, like storing and displaying pictures and music files. Runs on some sort of Windows XP." The real killer with this whole genre of device is cost and confusion. Users don't know what they do, so its not worth the cost. Anyone who has used a tivo for a week knows what it means. Business just needs to get the costs down. I think including functionality like pictures and music is a good step towards increasing value, as long as it doesn't add to the confusion.
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PC that acts like a TV More

PC that acts like a TV

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  • TiVo doomed? Hah! (Score:5, Funny)

    by TheSHAD0W ( 258774 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @08:49AM (#4440410) Homepage
    And Slate thinks TiVo is doomed [slashdot.org]? When their competitors are trying to sell virtually the same thing for $1,400? Hah, I say! Hah!

    • Re:TiVo doomed? Hah! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by NineNine ( 235196 )
      The average person has no fucking clue as to what a "Tivo" is or does. HP, on the other hand, has some great marketing people that can actually educate and market their products. Tivo's barely keeping their head above water due to very poor marketing. It doesn't give a damn if Tivo's product is better and cheaper. If nobody knows what it is or what it does, price and quality are a moot point. I predict that HP will trounce Tivo.

      • Re:TiVo doomed? Hah! (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        really people are gonna buy a computer for their tv and such? most people arent geeks bud
      • A lot of people know what a TiVo is, they just don't think they could benefit from one. They see it as a "fancy shmancy VCR", and they're pretty much right.

        Several popular TV shows have made references to them. I think even Oprah once talked about TiVo. A lot of people know what a Saab is, but how many of them do you see on the streets?



      • I'm sorry to disagee, but I think Tivi is becoming a part of the public consciosness. When I hear a local radio dj [slashdot.org] ralking about how he used his tivo to record a show he wanted to check out, a huge chunk of the local population just went to tivo.com.

        Tivo has mindshare, is simple, cheaper, and does one thing very well. I actually predict tivo will gain more mind and market share.
    • Who thinks $1400 is a price point that will move more than a small number of consumers in the top bracket? For people who want something like this, it has to be seriously multi-function and well integrated with other audio and visual components. Of course, there isn't much opportunity to do this because of a lack of widely supported standards to integrate components into a system.

      This type of system could work if it was an upscale gamebox that was somewhat open in terms of adding third party hardware. What could be done now with a PS/2 that had all the right options (disk, net, TV type remote, PCI slot or two for add ons, maybe fire-wire or USB). The apps aren't really there to make this excellent yet, so make something that the fringe Linux cases will make usable. Sony is at least moving this way a little with Linux support, why not take it to the next step?

  • Finally! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 13, 2002 @08:54AM (#4440423)
    New $5,000 Multimedia Computer System Downloads Real-Time TV Programs, Displays Them On Monitor [theonion.com]

  • P4 1.8GHz? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by OutRigged ( 573843 ) <rage@ o u t r i g g e d . com> on Sunday October 13, 2002 @08:55AM (#4440429) Homepage
    What I'm wondering, is why do these systems come with such powerful hardware? P4 1.8GHz, 256mb RAM, GeForce 4 ti based videocard, etc.. For what it's supposed to be, I just don't see the point. Is it a media center, or a gaming system? That's the entire reason the price is so high. I'm sure they could pull off the same system, with all the same features, running off a VIA chip, or even a Celeron or Duron, and a cheaper videocard. Until they do that, they won't sell to many of these.

    • Re:P4 1.8GHz? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by quiklilo71 ( 557049 )
      There's a few reasons I think they put it on such a platform: 1. XP is a pig; I have a couple of XP boxes in my home lan (2 of my pc's run XP; 3 run Linux), and it does so much unrequested-by-the-user work that it needs the horsepower just to run many times. 2.That's not that much horsepower anymore. a 1.6ghz/256ram pc is middle of the road by retail standards...not that you are I have all of our boxes so powerful. 3. Multitasking multimedia on anything less is often impossible (by multitasking I mean burning a cd, watching a film and downloading content simultaniously).

      • Re:P4 1.8GHz? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by cat_jesus ( 525334 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:39AM (#4440539)
        The original SA Tivo runs on a 55Mghz PPC chip with 16 Meg of RAM. You are quite correct about bloatware. If they spent a little more energy on making a tight, light, stable OS and application perhaps they could use less expensive but suitable hardware and lower the price thus gaining market penetration.
        .not that you are I have all of our boxes so powerful.
        ..begin unrelated rant..
        Is the difference between are and or really that difficult? I can overlook "there's a few", but are instead of or? I hope for your sake that english is your second language. Or should I say for you're sake?
        • The original SA Tivo runs on a 55Mghz PPC chip with 16 Meg of RAM.

          I would imagine, with quite a bit of certainty, that it additionally has a video compression coprocessor to perform video compression and decompression (see this [stanford.edu] page which seems to concur, showing separate board chips for video compression and decompression, separate from the CPU), hence leaving the main processor basically as a custodian. I highly suspect this, as 4Mbps MPEG2 compression simply doesn't seem possible on a 55Mhz PowerPC.

          Of course Microsoft could just get together with Sigma Designs or such and get some custom hardware to do it much more efficiently, but they probably want programmability (i.e. custom hardware can't adapt when a new codec comes out)

      • Re:P4 1.8GHz? (Score:3, Funny)

        by jedrek ( 79264 )
        Wow... and to think that I was doing the impossbile by burning CDs while working in Photoshop and Homesite while watching divx compressed movies with a couple of putty, kazaa, edonkey, mirc and bpftp sessions in the background on my P3-866.

        Time to call the Weekly World News, we gots a miracle on our hands.

    • Re:P4 1.8GHz? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by fiffilinus ( 45513 )
      Ah yes, what about all this neat DRM functionality? Do you really think the encryption stuff for keying files to the media pc in question won't take cpu cycles? :-)
      You really think those wonder machines will let you burn CDs for your car stereo?

    • Re:P4 1.8GHz? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by ergo98 ( 9391 )
      While it doesn't explain the GF4, the CPU can be explained as necessary if they haven't integrated a coprocessor for video compression: Even 3Mbps (ok quality) MPEG2 has my Athlon XP 1800+ gasping for air. I don't know what sort of video codec they're using, but if it's WM9 (a sort of super-MPEG4 supposedly) then increase the CPU usage accordingly. The desired goal is that they'd put actual integrated video compression hardware on there.

      Personally I think this is a product area that will get huge: For everyone who's talking about how expensive it is, realize that people buy TV systems exceeding that cost frequently: This isn't a surprisingly high home entertainment cost. Hell, the home theatre market continues to strive, selling five digit projectors and similarly priced audio gear. I personally have been having a debate regarding my own entertainment system: My DVD player was one of the early ones, and I want to replace it with a progressive scan player. Additionally I want something to play MP3 and WMA, preferably over the network from one of my other PCs. What I end up needing, of course, is a computer at my TV, and that's the direction that I'm headed. My biggest problem was software (i.e. I would rather super simple, can't-screw-up, software for family and friends), however the Media Center software seems to fit the bill perfectly.
    • There are good reasons for this!
      First off, this is no amazing feat. The 'mom&pop' store I run sells easily 3 or 4 systems a month that are made for the same reason. They are Athlon 1800+'s with 512 of DDR333 and all sorts of good stuff like a Leadtek Winfast TV2000 XP w/ remote and a 22" CRT. They sell like mad because I am able to sell these for only around $1300 as a PC that does TV AND gaming.

      The fact that /. posted this shows that someone is way far behind on technology. TV Tuners with TiVO capability etc... have been out for a while. And they are good stuff to. But I am writing this post to address the parent coment claiming that the PC is too powerful.

      TO SOME EXTENT IT IS RIGHT!

      Now, the use of a TI series GF4 is way overkill. I throw Radeon 8500's or GF3 TI (because they are better then the 4mx and cheaper) in my TV/PC's and they do what they are supposed to flawlessly. One big problem that I used to always notice though it the TiVO app is a HUGE bandwidth hog. I used to be using PC-800 RDRAM and crappy INTEL's until Athlons starting using DDR. DDR Has a slight advantage that I have noticed because the quality of the data (and therefore picture) was greatly affected by the warmth of the RAM (I don't know why, so don't ask) and DDR is easier to keep cooler as well as being fast enough. The Ram is a little lack in this HP system because XP uses a good chunk of the ram, almost around 128M, and the TiVO as well as tuner need as much as possible.

      As far as your keen intellect noticing that they should use AMD's or something else, you have to not forget. These PC's will sell like shit. There are way too many bone-heads out there that still think INTEL is the only thing there is. I could easily triple my sales overall if I sold anything INTEL, but I don't because I know.
      being that the general public is just too ignorant, and Intel is in bed with all the big companies, especially Dellsux and Microshaft, You are going to keep seeing BS like thins until AMD releases the Hammer and intel is sitting, thumbing their neither-reigions waiting until they feel the market is ready for 64-bit.
    • First and foremost, it's a computer. It just happens to have Tivo capabilities built into it.

  • It goes like this (Score:4, Funny)

    by octalgirl ( 580949 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @08:58AM (#4440436) Journal
    This concept has been out for a while, but has never appealed to me. I have no desire to fight with other family members over TV time vs computer time. It goes like this:

    Mom and Dad are watching their fav show, a commercial comes on and Dad says 'I need to check my mail' - click - 'Oh look, someone sent me a new joke' click-click - The screen goes black, the system reboots. Mom whacks Dad with the newspaper for opening a virus and making her miss the end of the show.
  • So it can do all that stuff in the article, without costing so much.

  • castrated computers (Score:5, Insightful)

    by vstanescu ( 522393 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:00AM (#4440443) Homepage
    May be this is just my opinion, but i am not willing to have a computer as a digital replacement for a TV. Yes, I like to have a TV tunner to watch or record something from time to time, but I am not such a huge TV fan.. there are days where I even don't look at the TV at all. I dislike all this trends to transform the computer in a multimedia black box. I want my computer to code, to write some documents, browse the net, even play games.. but I want it to have the feel of a computer, not of a tv or stereo. I enjoy the power to do whatever I want with my PC; if I want multimedia, I know what hardware and software to buy and use for this, but I would not buy a box that is limited to multimedia only and is sold as a "family device" to be placed under the TV. This is the same story with the Xbox - I understand it is a cheaper PC, but I love too much my opened case computer, in which i can fit whatever card I want, to switch to that black box, even if it has cool games or can run linux. I wonder if anybody else feels this entertainment devices as castrated computers, that lost all the fun.
    • Exactly my opinion. But it seems many people like the black boxes, and especially those connected to the TV. It's because they connect "TV" with more simplicity, while PCs are complicated (not my opinion, but what most people seem to think)

  • New XP Interface (Score:4, Informative)

    by shird ( 566377 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:00AM (#4440445) Homepage Journal
    The 'some sort of Windows XP' he is talking about is problaby the Freestyle [winsupersite.com] interface Microsoft is developing. Put simply, it is basically a shell for XP which has huge icons so that it can be viewed from a distance. Its a bit more than that though.

    Also related is 'Mira' [winsupersite.com] which is more for Wi-Fi type devices.

  • Convergence - again!??? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by The Mutant ( 167716 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:06AM (#4440458) Homepage
    Apple has tried this several times [lowendmac.com], and Compaq has as well [com.com] (tellingly, Compaq doesn't off this product / capability any more).

    I'm not sure folks - and by that I mean the mass market, not geeks - are ready for this. I understand the HP product can record, unlike the MacTV (I own one, btw, as well as one of their 5500's which has a TV tuner card) or the Compaq machine but it seems like most people park their PC in one room and the TV in the other.

    PC / TV convergence? Well, your toaster has been next to your refrigerator for 50+ years, and they haven't converged yet. I don't see a mass market for this now, and there clearly hasn't been in the past.

    Nice box though.

    • Mac TV (Score:3, Interesting)

      by mekkab ( 133181 )
      Yeah, a friend of mine had one of those "sears macs" from 7 years ago... (a quadra? performa? all the names meld together after a while) and she didn't have a tv but she did have a coax connector in the back, so she'd watch tv on her mac. IT was a nifty trick.

      However her system had 1 SIMM slot (WTF?!) so it wasn't as if you could run permier and make some captures and put them in movies.

      Without a killer app it isn't going to be more than a parlor trick. But then again, without having these parlor tricks around you don't give anyone the opportunity to create a killer app!

      But given the inherit difference in the user interaction model:
      TV: Sit. Watch. Enjoy!
      PC: Sit. type. click. read. type some more. enjoy!

      Don't get me wrong, there are spectator aspects to a pc- why, look at console gaming (the best example of TV/PC convergence yet)- even in games that aren't head to head I can watch my wife play and still have a good time.

      • Basically the MacTV was an LCII with a TV tuner. It was also a spiffy black when everyone was making beige boxen. Ahead of its time and now a major collectors' item amongst Mac fans. Just don't try to use it...it didn't do computing well and it didn't do TV well.
    • You raise some interesting points, and I'm also generally sceptical about multimedia convergence. But that Compaq are no longer directly competing with HP is hardly a telling point, since the merger.
    • Remember the Philips DVX3000? It was essentially a PC inside a stereo component form-factor with a tweaked version of Win98. This was one of the early promises of convergence and it gave users the ability to run PC applications on their TV.

      Aside from stability issues (the unit managed to crash numerous times during demos), the limited resolution of NTSC made this impractical. From a purely technical standpoint, the DVX3000 failed miserably.

      A better example of the failure of convergence might be the CD-I format. In many ways, CD-I was very much like DVD but it failed because only one company was onboard with this format.

      So; the lessons of convergence are quite simple. The NTSC television has insufficient resolution to support anything more than video and technology can only converge when standards are readily available to many vendors.

      While HDTV is fixing the problems of low-rez TV, this is still 5-10 years away. Microsoft is too early with this kind of technology, but if they can spur the growth of the HDTV market in the process they might be successful. Obviously, the stability issues have been reconciled and the advent of MP3 makes convergence slightly more compelling. Since they are licensing this software technology, it might be possible for MS to make a dent in the home appliance market.

      Meanwhile, TiVo is a niche product that solves a problem (recording TV shows without programming a VCR) that happened exactly at the right time (ie: when DVD was making the VCR obsolete). While it's not truly a convergent device, it does demonstrate how a computer can enable your home entertainment system.

  • *uh*em cough cough hello??? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Billly Gates ( 198444 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:07AM (#4440463) Journal
    These new multi-media pc's just wouldn't happen to be these [slashdot.org]drm crippled babes?

    sigh.



    Cmd taco, sometimes I feel like I want to bitch slap you. Bad taco bad.

  • Ouch! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by AntiFreeze ( 31247 ) <<antifreeze42> <at> <gmail.com>> on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:08AM (#4440465) Homepage Journal
    This thing scares me. It costs $1,400, and a monitor is *extra*. In other words, they're just selling a computer preconfigured to hook up to your television.

    The article is short on details about the computer, this is what it says:

    The HP computer, which will be available by the end of October, comes with a remote control, television tuner, and can record and play television shows and digital music. A monitor is extra.

    Nothing special whatsoever, but what really scares me is what the executive VP of CompUSA says: "The remote control could well become the next standard PC peripheral". Huh? Is he saying that computers are heading down the path of glorified televisions and that in the near future all that you will need to operate your computer is a remote control?

    Something's very fishy. This thing is a computer with a tv tuner card, it shouldn't approach $1,400, even with a monitor included. There have to be some other gimics, otherwise this thing seems to be one big rip off.

    If someone's got real information on this thing to counteract the lack of information presented by CNN, that would be greatly appreciated.

    • Re:Ouch! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by NineNine ( 235196 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:27AM (#4440510)
      Is he saying that computers are heading down the path of glorified televisions and that in the near future all that you will need to operate your computer is a remote control?


      EXACTLY! That's what people want! People want *simple*. Leave the real computers to the geeks. Hell, the PS2 is almost an all-in-one box... games, movies, and music all in one little box with a remote control. They add a SIMPLE Net connection to the next gen PS2, and a SIMPLE email and web interface (yes, that you can operate with a remote), and they'll have convergence.

      • Re:Ouch! (Score:4, Insightful)

        by AntiFreeze ( 31247 ) <<antifreeze42> <at> <gmail.com>> on Sunday October 13, 2002 @10:08AM (#4440624) Homepage Journal
        Yes, I agree, people most certainly want simple. But there's a line. There are many functions of a computer that just cannot be accessed by using a remote, short of that remote being some type of keyboard.

        On the other hand, if what you use a computer for can be boiled down into functions a remote control can send to your computer, then you can probably find something much cheaper than that computer to acomplish the task. If all you plan on using your computer for is tv viewing, buy a tivo, it's much cheaper than a computer, and you get all the same functionality. If you only use your computer to play mp3s, invest in an mp3 player, the computer is overkill.

        Also, with respect to your PS2 comment, it's a device designed for a specific task, and is much cheaper than a computer.

        In my roundabout way, I think what I'm getting at is that computers should be generalized. You should be able to do what you want with them. If you buy a computer and it's set up to do only one thing well, then to me you're not buying a computer, you're buying an appliance. TiVo is an appliance in that sense, so is the PS2. And those appliances are much cheaper than the general computer you could buy which can perform all those tasks. So if remote controls become the "next big peripheral", then the machine they come attached to better be damn cheap, or that remote control better include a keyboard.

        I hope I've made some sense, I running on 0 hours of sleep right now.

        • You forget one thing: People are used to paying more for computers than 'simple' appliances, so if they promote the thing as a "TV Computer!", rather than a "yet another boring set-top blackbox", you'll get more suckers paying the higher price because they expect it.
      • Is he saying that computers are heading down the path of glorified televisions and that in the near future all that you will need to operate your computer is a remote control?

        After the RIAA and MPAA are done, you won't need more than a remote control to access the allowable functions on a multimedia box.

        Xix.

    • ... but what really scares me is what the executive VP of CompUSA says: "The remote control could well become the next standard PC peripheral". Huh? Is he saying that computers are heading down the path of glorified televisions and that in the near future all that you will need to operate your computer is a remote control?

      No, I don't think a remote would be "all you will need to operate your computer". There was a time when a computer did not come with a mouse, but I'd dare say it's a "standard PC peripheral today." This doesn't mean that they've now dispensed with the keyboard -- it's just another standard control that comes with the PC. So, I take his comment to mean that there would be another standard peripheral that would come with a PC. So, you'd then have: a keyboard, a mouse, AND a remote control.

  • Tivo-wannabes don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Brento ( 26177 ) <brento@brentozar ... minus herbivore> on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:10AM (#4440469) Homepage
    As an All-In-Wonder Radeon owner, here's the deal: PC's will never replace Tivos until they can replicate Tivo's Season Pass functionality and knowingly record not only the shows I want, but the ones it thinks I will want.

    My All-In-Wonder Radeon is a pain in the rear because it won't track schedule changes and automatically record the show I want every time. When a show gets delayed by a football game, or like TLC just randomly changes schedule, I end up with recorded footage I don't want while missing the show I really DID want.

    Plus, when the Discovery Channel shows a one-time special, "When Animals Attack Cops During Natural Disasters", or one of those other shows I love, the Radeon's software (ATI MMC) isn't smart enough to tape it automatically. Come on, guys, it can't be that hard if Tivo can do it. We're so close...

    And now, 1,000 Linux guys are going to tell me that we could easily write our own using a web-based TV program repository, but just like every time I post this, the repository doesn't exist. Gemstar has it nailed down, and the market is locked up on that one.
    • As an All-In-Wonder Radeon owner, here's the deal: PC's will never replace Tivos until they can replicate Tivo's Season Pass functionality and knowingly record not only the shows I want, but the ones it thinks I will want.

      It is not necessary for the card manufacturers to provide this, all they need to do is to provide a standard API that allows control the card. It would be even better if it was a Web Service so you could control the device remotely.

      Of course Tivo probably have patents covering the more blatantly obvious techniques here.

      Rather than asking why the HP device costs $1400 for a tivo, consider why it costs $1400 for a PC! I just bought a new motherboard, processor, RAM and video card for $350 that give a remarkably similar performance.

    • Not quite true. Check out XMLTV [membled.com]. I think you might find that all the guide infrastructure in available in a nice, Free package. So given that much of the backend work has already been done, you just need a nice guide program to use XMLTV guide data (i.e. parse XMLTV's XML format) and implement the relatively simple logic of tracking shows and making sure to schedule recording of them.

      I actually started working on this a bit for the excellent DScaler TV tuner card app (this is a Windows app), but I haven't gotten very far yet, mostly due to having lots of other more pressing projects, but I wrote some hack-job code to display current guide data in a simple box overlay drawn on top of the DScaler TV window. It really needs a much more comprehensive treatment than that, but the point is this is a couple of week project. If you are interested, get in touch.

    • As an AIW 8500 owner IMHO that is it's single biggest problem. XP Media Center Edition does not have this problem however. See:

      WindowsXP Media Center Review [winsupersite.com]
      and
      Screenshot of the series screen [winsupersite.com]
    • the Discovery Channel shows a one-time special, "When Animals Attack Cops During Natural Disasters", or one of those other shows I love,

      Yee I love that show its the BOMB!!! seriously did you see the one where a mongosse bit the balls of that traffic cop in the middle of Force 6 winds? great T.V.
    • My guess is that tivo says that tech is patent pending or something. Another reason to get annoyed with patents.

  • PC-TV (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Hmmm this NEW HP is supposed to be fresh and nimble?

    I've had a homebuilt dedicated PC-TV for about 3 years now. This device is nothing new. And my device does not have any copy controls for playback etc.

    This PC-TV has a special feature that includes copy controls as provided by the special version of our favorite OS.

    I wish mom and pop would be wise to this scheme...

  • problems (Score:4, Insightful)

    by d80tb7 ( 552692 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:16AM (#4440480)

    The problem with this is that this isn't just being marketed as a entertainment box as in Tivo but as a practical computer as well. In some ways this justifies the extremely high cost of the unit but it also causes a couple of problems namely:

    display: Most Tvs are not of sufficient quality for displaying text clearly which makes them unsuitable for general computing. Most computer monitors are far smaller than you would wish to watch TV/DVD's on. Unless LCD screens get an awful lot cheaper this problem really isn't going to be solved.

    functionality: If your going to use this as your main PC what's going to happen when someone wants to play a game/write a word document etc etc etc? Does everyone else in the family have to stop watching TV?

    Phobia: people are in general afriad of computers. My mum likes TIVO because it doesn't look like a computer and it does its job well. This thing would scare the hell out of her somply because it's a pc.

    All in all I think there's a place for this thing but only if they cut the price and market it as a piece of consumer electronics as opposed to an all singing all dancing pc.
    • According to an article I read (can't remember where), it's primarily being marketed to students and other tech-savvy customers as a space-saving convergence unit. Kind of a swiss army knife for single person households.
      • Unfortunately for MSFT and HP, the people they're trying to sell it to are the people most likely to have the skills to build their own box.
      • If it is, they're a pack of fools. Any real tech-savvy person would laugh and point at HP for trying to sell them a crippled PC for twice what a normal one would cost.

        I suspect that they're aiming for early-adopter types---those who don't care about what the technology is or does, but just want it because it's shiny and expensive. I suspect, especially with the economy tanking, that this is a much smaller market than HP thinks it is.

        --grendel drago
        • How is it "crippled"? It is basically the same thing as xp pro with a nice frontend for being controlled with a remote. They took the DRM stuff out, and the system can still be used to do whatever a normal windows system can. I agree with you about the market though. It seems that their target market can't afford these things, so I imagine it won't do too well. I think they should've gone for HDTV and tried to capture the home theater market instead. Those are the people with money to blow, not college students.
    • display: Most Tvs are not of sufficient quality for displaying text clearly which makes them unsuitable for general computing.

      Keep in mind, though, that this is gradually changing. Mine is a 34" HDTV that can resolve 1280x720 very nicely. (I can drive it at 1920x1080 as well, but only interlaced, and interlaced makes for unpleasant viewing of static material like text.)

      I paid out the ass for my TV earlier this year, but smaller televisions with similar capabilities are getting cheaper and cheaper. As the deadline for various FCC mandates approaches, expect TVs with 800-or-more lines of resolution to be the rule, rather than the exception.

    • display: Most Tvs are not of sufficient quality for displaying text clearly which makes them unsuitable for general computing. Most computer monitors are far smaller than you would wish to watch TV/DVD's on. Unless LCD screens get an awful lot cheaper this problem really isn't going to be solved.

      Definately. I don't have any desire for mixing my computer monitor (small, high resolution, fits on my desk) and my TV monitor (large, high resolution not necessary, fits in my entertainment center).

      I'm all about mixing my DVD player, cable box, computer, etc., but it's not something that's going to happen until I finish running coax into a wiring closet or something. And even then the DVD player will have to wait until I can get a couple terabytes for a couple hundred $s.

  • Hmmm.... (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by Pig Hogger ( 10379 )
    Computer? TV?

    I'd like to see if a beowulf cluster of those would be more stupid than the collective of everyone watching the boob tube...

  • freevo? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nico_le_blob ( 615777 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @09:27AM (#4440508)
    Anyone checked freevo.sf.net ? Reads divx/dvds, mp3/ogg, image files, watch tv... and is free software of course...
  • I have the same thing from just adding a $150 ALL-IN-WONDER® RADEON 7500 [ati.com]

    All the same functionality with the remote control on my current system.
    • Congratulations. Unfortunately, you're not the target market for these things. Most people don't even know what a "Radeon" is. You try to explain it, and most people will just look at you funny. So yes, for most people, it would be considered rocket science.
      • well frankly, then they shouldn't be using computers to begin with!
        • well frankly, then they shouldn't be using computers to begin with!

          Typical geek attitude. And anybody who can't gap their own spark plugs, and change their own timing belt shouldn't be using cars either, huh?

          • bad analogy (Score:3, Insightful)

            by squarefish ( 561836 )
            Typical geek attitude. And anybody who can't gap their own spark plugs, and change their own timing belt shouldn't be using cars either, huh?

            The target customer of a $1400 computer with a tv card is the same user that constantly has problems keeping their computer running through stupidity, not necessarily a lack of tech or mech skills.

            If someone is constantly crashing their car into walls and others- destroying other peoples cars, then we have a system that removes their right to use a car.

            We also have a system in place called licensing which allows us to have some faith that others are responsibly operating their equipment/machinery in a safe manner.

            I also find it very interesting that when the big computer manufacturers decide that people aren't buying new machines they pull out 5 year old technology, double the price and pretend that nobody had this option before. The cards are on the shelf and anyone can walk into computer store and pick one up. Also, most hardware like this has very plain instructions to make the installation dummy proof.
          • Well, I'll go out on a limb.

            If I show you how to gap your spark plugs, and then you still can't do it, then you probably shouldn't be using a car. I honestly think if we got rid of the bottom 25% of drivers ranked by skill, we'd do away with 90% of the accidents. But that's neither here nor there.

            The same sort of thing goes to computers. If I make you (hi mom!) a dial up networking icon on the desktop, and you still can't click it after I show you how a few times, just stop, okay? Go listen to the radio. Seriously, not everyone 'needs' a computer.
  • The article states that the inddustry expects computer sales to lukewarm since people are happy with what they have.

    HP should be looking for exciting NEW concepts to exploit. Bring a little excitement to the industry.

    PC. PC/TV. PC/TV/Stereo. PC/TV/Stereo/Phone. Nothing new....

    Blah! Consolidation and not innovation.

  • DRM? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Isn't it this DRM crapped thing which was reported weeks ago?
  • What I want is a an inexexpensive thin client for my TV - say ~$200 - that could:

    a. act as an X server when needed
    b. connect to my stereo to stream audio from my PC upstairs.

    SO, minumum would be TV out, 802.11b, sound card.

  • Sony already has this, but they are more expensive (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The ignorance of the slashdot crowd, and new media once again proves itself. Sony already has a TV connected pc, complete with remote, starting at $1,999. Check it out [sonystyle.com]. Now who's over priced?

  • Merchants' marketing sucks (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Devlin-du-GEnie ( 512506 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @10:40AM (#4440709)
    CmdrTaco said:
    "The real killer with this whole genre of device is cost and confusion."
    Based on a wide sample (here, me), merchants are doing nothing to reduce confusion. I bought a TiVo at Best Buy two weeks ago. They were boxed on a shelf. No demo unit was set up. No remote was available to touch and use. They had the cables baggie lying out, so I was able to see that I didn't need to buy any, but that was it.

    The reason TiVo rocks is its functionality, interface, and ease of use. I heard about it from fellow geeks. If you're not showing those features to Joe and Jane Consumer, why would they be interested?

    Karma is what occurs between posts.

    • Re:Merchants' marketing sucks (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I can remember fair trade laws. Yes, prices were higher, but at least the dealers had to have knowledgeable salespeople, demo rooms, and service departments.

      Now there are no soundrooms, the salespeople only want to sell what they get a kickback on, know little or nothing, and are quite often flat out wrong and or misleading.

      Good sales people in any kind of electronics store are rarer than hens teeth. If you find one, treat well, thank them, refer friends to them. Tell their supervisors that you were pleased with their help.

      Any manufacturer who does not advertise extensively, pay the retailer for 'placement', bribe the salespeople for each sale, and provide product feature cards and other point of sale materials is fighting an uphill battle.

      That being said, I got a Direct TV Tivo with the two tuners. Dealer didn't even try to sell me the second coaxial cable to hook up the second tuner, but was more than willing to sell me the rest of the system. And he was the 'expert' that I was handed off to because the first salesperson knew nothing about the satellite systems!

      The TIVO is everything good that people say about it. It is as revolutionary as taking the corners off the wheel!

      TIVO will sell not because of the stores and their sales clerks (associates), but because of the word of mouth of owners evangelizing and showing their systems to others. The only question is how quickly TIVO's will sell. Will it be quickly enough to make TIVO profitable before they burn through all their investment money. I hope so and am doing what I can.

      RB

  • and in other news... (Score:3, Funny)

    by twoslice ( 457793 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @10:40AM (#4440711)
    The next generation of TiVo can be used just like a computer!

  • Cost (Score:1, Flamebait)

    by alexmogil ( 442209 )
    If this device was around $250, would Slashdot be highlighting its ability to be hacked and replaced with a Linux distribution?

    Is the only difference between this needless device and an Xbox the cost - and maybe the fact that Microsoft is 'losing money' on the Xbox?

  • I've had one for a year (Score:4, Informative)

    by ShieldW0lf ( 601553 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @11:06AM (#4440810) Journal
    I'm posting this comment from the sofa on it.

    Lian-Li PC-12 Black Aluminum Case (2x80mm in, 1x80mm out)
    Enermax 350W PSU (1x80mm in, 1x80mm out)
    Lapped Duron 600 @ 980 (7.0x140)
    Lapped GlobalWIN FOP32 @ Arctic Silver II
    Asus A7V133 MB w Promise RAID
    2 x 256MB PC133 RAM
    40G Western Digital Caviar HD (VIA - Primary Master)
    Lite-On 40x12x40 CD-RW (VIA - Secondary Master)
    60G Seagate Barracuda ATA IV HD (Promise - Primary Master)
    Pioneer DVD-ROM DVD116 (Promise - Primary Slave)
    40G IBM Deskstar 60GXP (Promise - Secondary Master)
    Lite-On 52x CD-ROM (Promise - Secondary Slave)
    Asus V7100 Deluxe Combo Video Card (Lapped P100 HSF @ Arctic Silver II)
    62cm Television on RCA output
    Hercules GameTheater XP
    Boston DT6000 5.1 Speakers on Optical SP-DIF output
    3Com 10/100 NIC
    Logitech Freedom Optical Keyboard/Mouse
    Microsoft Sidewinder Pro Gamepads (2)
    Homemade Remote Reciever (Serial Ports obsolete, eh?)

    This is mostly old tech now, but it still plays DVDs, plays DivX5/AC3 spanned across up to 3CDs for highest quality, holds 70GB of MP3s, surfs web, checks mail, plays 3d shooters, emulates every console and arcade game EVER, captures, timeshifts, does slideshows off my digicam, supports my universal remote, and is simple enough for my wife to use.

    Microsoft and HP can keep their crap.
  • Now what they REALLY need to do is make a computer that's entire guts are inside the keyboard, and.... and make it use your TV as a monitor! YEAH! Through a little tinfoil pronged RF convertor box! That would rule!
  • functionality like pictures and music is a good step towards increasing value

    OK. Agreed. But I sure don't need another computer to get this done. My bottom-of-the-line Apex DVD player will serve just fine. I use my computer upstairs to burn a disc with MP3s, throw it on the DVD player attached to my home theater downstairs, and - voila - I have music. I burn a disc full of jpgs, shove it into my DVD player, and I get a fine slide show.

    Most people have no idea how wonderful these capabilities are. I can send a disc to my mom and just tell her to put it in that DVD player I got her from Wal-Mart. With no effor on her part, she then gets a bunch of old country music she loves (with no idea that I got it off Usenet) or a slide show with pictures of my cats.

    But just because I think these are valuable things doesn't mean I'm willing to part with another kilobuck or two for the privilege of wedging another box into my home theater system.

  • Right from the article it's called "Windows XP Media Center.".

    I have had the privelage of seeing and using Windows XP Media Center edition [microsoft.com] live, up close and personal.

    My humble impression: It kicks TIVO's ass. In fact it kicks TIVO, ReplayTV, Snapstream, Showshifter even ATI's guide+ right out of the water. It's user interface is nothing short of breathtaking, it's real slick.

    It just makes sence to me to move my "digital library" (music, videos, pictures, movies) to my entertainment center!

  • It's quite possible that the huge expense in this system could be the TV tuner. According to the little blurb on the Microsoft site (sorry, forgot the URL), it will take signal input from an antenna, cable, or satellite. Doing this is going to require some pretty badass hardware to pull off.

    Granted there are a couple nice multifunction video cards out there, but IIRC they're all NTSC compliant only. The digital cards are the ones that require a couple extra hundred dollars to purchase. Granted, it might be worth it if this thing can record any of the digital streams directly to the HD much like the DirecTivo can. An HDTV digital receiver and 5.1 optical output would be pretty nice too.

    If it can do all these things and more, then I might be tempted to jump...and also build that multi-terabyte array for my DVD .iso files. :)

    Personally, I'd rather build my own box and save a boatload of cash that way. :)

  • The more things change (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Joe U ( 443617 ) on Sunday October 13, 2002 @12:18PM (#4441091) Homepage Journal
    The more they stay the same.

    Commodore annouced something very similar years ago.

    They went out of business shortly after. I don't think anyone ever understood why they were supposed to buy the computer for your tv, it wasn't a Commodore 64 or Amiga, it wasn't a game console and it wasn't a VCR. It was something in-between all of that.

    Who knows, maybe music will be the feature that saves this one.

  • You're missing the target audience (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This "PC" was demonstrated at my campus a few weeks ago. One of their large target audiences is college students who need 1 device to do everything, and it's not as space wasting as a seperate PC, TV, DVD player, etc. Think dorms. Unfortunately they missed the July-August buying window.
  • As seen here, [acornworld.net] Apple once experimenting with a 'media PC' which did not meet with much success.. When will these corporate types realize that people don't want to watch TV on their computers? I'd much rather sit in front of my 36" Panasonic HDTV :)
  • storing and displaying pictures and music files

    Holy shit, a computer that can store and display pictures and music?! Unbelievable...where do I get one?

  • Some misunderstandings (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Here I am reading the /. responses. Most people can't seem to figure out the difference between the Windows XP Media Center Edition and a TiVo or a PC with an ATI TV Tuner card in it.

    Well, the WXPMCE machine IS a computer with a TV Tuner card in it. Microsoft will ONLY sell you the OS if you are an OEM and ship the OS on a NEW computer with the minimum requirements for it (i.e. one of a few TV tuners capable of detecting programming information from Cable/Sattelite, etc).

    However, this is really an attempt to put a box-that-does-it-all (TM) in your living room or college desk. It plays back and record to DVD, CD, TV, and Computer A/V files. The cool thing is the UI for doing this. Look at http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/freestyle_pre view.asp It really does look like a TiVo style UI, but I've seen a demo, and MS did a significantly better job at makinga UI than TiVo did. It also lets you browse or show your photo albums. I've heard that you can also set your photo albums to music and do PPT-style transitions. It has a remote control and menu driven interface for doing all of this.

    The graphics card exports to TV signals and VGA, so you don't need a TV in your dorm room, and don't need a computer monitor in your living room. It is also a fully operational Windows XP Professional computer, and it is a pretty darn good one at that (for $1,400 it should be a pretty good game machine).

    All this having been said, I personally am waiting for next year, because I have a 500MHz P3 which can TV tune, and does all of that except for the TiVo like recording and DVD-R, but it is connected to my TV through a wall so I can watch the DivX CDs. I have PPT XP so I can make the nifty slide shows of photos really easily, and I also have Windows XP, so I can simply run its slide show mode with WinAmp playing in the background.

    Personally, I feel that this solution is very nice (the system specs and the remote control functionality especially), but I can wait until next year, when I can buy the same PC for 1/2 the price. Or a year later, when I can buy it for 1/4. Unfortunately for the PC market, so can most everyone else. If you ever want to feel really depressed about how cheap PC components are now, go to www.pricewatch.com

    I'm wondering where companies like HPQ and MS will go next. This device is sure to cut into the bottom line of the TiVo. Here's the imagined sales pitch: "Need a new computer? Buy this desktop computer once, and you don't need a TiVo, a VCR, a Stereo, or a slide projector. Comes with a universal MS Remote. You don't need to pay for a TiVo subscription service to record your favorite TV shows, and if you network your computers, then you can stream TV shows via ethernet or broadband! How much would you be willing to pay for all of this? $5,000? $3,000? $1,500? No. It's only $1,400! Call now, and we'll even throw in a quick-cam! That's a $100 value for FREE! Get your credit cards ready, 'cause theese things are hot!"
  • HP already had their own platform that they could have developed into a full-fledged Media Center that was based on Linux. HP DE100C [hp.com]

    with open source published here [hp.com]. I think the merger has had a negative impact on HP's attitude towards open source.
  • I have (well, have had) two big prejudices against television, both of which the past few years have worn away at.

    1) Time-stealing. I hate the idea that a television show should dominate one's schedule, replacing other activities at all costs, and for this reason held my own one-man TV boycott for a long time, trying to avoid it. (Worse, when someone's whole life is written around the television schedule, day by day and timeslot by timeslot.) Besides the general obnoxious time-slavery, there's the other problem that most of what's on TV is awful anyhow :) Besides bad programs, there are the just-as-bad advertisements. I don't mind seeing some ads, but until I'm in the pickup truck buying mode (one in the family is really enough), I *don't want to see Silverado ads!* I don't need to see tampon ads, ads for Preparation H, ads for vaguely hinted-at medicines about which I am implored to ask my doctor -- ARRRGHH!

    TiVo and other PVRs do a lot of answer this argument. (And tapes suck, as in my #2 ;)) If I can watch The Simpsons (hey, no accounting for taste) at the time of my own choosing, and pause as desired, and decide which of the comercials I feel like experiencing, then OK.

    2) Bulk. A TV is an annoying thing to carry around, at least for my particular part of the Venn diagram. If you can afford a GIGANTIC screen, perhaps you can also afford to be carried around in a sedan chair by beautiful servants, and have your television moved in (and moved at will later, if you want) by a set of insaller guys, like the characters in the video for the Dire Straights song "Money for Nothing." I can afford a smaller screen than that, and have ended up buying a couple televisions in the course of my life, and inevitably moving them around. I sold my last one (a small but pleasant Sony) and do not regret the transaction at all -- since then, the only TV I've *owned* is a tiny (handheld) LCD one.

    Besides the moving-around part, TV bulk is also a problem in that conventional (CRT) TVs take up a lot of space in a room, and often end up being made a sort of shrine, which bugs me. TV is one possible input in a home (or office or wherever) but I always cringe to see rooms / houses which seem to be devoted to it as a household god. Better to have none than to have one which determines the placement of every other piece od furniture.

    I had a VCR once, too, and though it was OK, *but* -- I rarely used it, even more rarely programmed it to record anything, and it broke on probably day 366 with a year's warranty. Oh well. Have never bought another, and am happy not to have one. Tapes are like weights on one's ankles. They break, they get lost, they get recorded and then not labeled ...

    [I have had the *use* of some other TVs since I sold mine 3 years ago, but none are permanantly attached.]

    So: TiVo (and this thingamajiggie from HP, and Replay TV, etc.) kill my biggest complaints (time restrictions, inapprpopriate and annoying advertisements), and the advent of LCD screens with TV tuners (including computers with tuner cards attached to LCDs) and plasma TVs are doing a good job of killing the others.

    In fact, I saw recent-model plasma TV (a 42" Panasonic) for the first time a few weeks ago. [I had seen some others at trade shows, but they were basically *monitors* rather than TVs, and I did not inspect them as closely; a few years ago I saw some at Frys in Palo Alto, and they were OK but nowhere near as impressive.] Amazing colors, bright, sharp picture -- much better, frankly, than I had expected.

    One nice thing about them is that though they need *careful* handling, it looks not outrageous for one person to lift up to the 42" size at least. (Someone correct me if that's wrong -- this is conjecture on my part.).

    Just as important, once installed, they can be put out of sight, or at least reduced to "inconspicuous" when not being used. Not true of a 42" conventional television. With a plasma screen, I can see hanging a velvet curtain (or more likely a protective louvre) in front of the screen *unless* actively watching it.

    (Even if the MS-centric way of doing things is bound to be annoying, I am glad that people are starting to accept computer-things as being a legitimate adjunct to their television-things.)

    Soon, a large hard drive filled with arguably good content, connected to a reasonably large flat display (whether Plasma, or LED, or OLED, or whatever) will be a fairly normal thing. I will not weep for the death of "regular" television :)

    timothy

  • PC Makers - here's a million dollars worth of market research: this is a fine strategy for HDTV sets, but NTSC is just too miserable for modern GUI's. This won't be a profitable market until 2006, when everybody is replacing their analog sets.

    Lots of companies have tried it over the past 20 years, and none of those products is alive today. Adding WindowsXP to the mix won't help.

    New video gear is shipping with DVI connectors - that's the direction you need to go.

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