Embedded Linux Wi-Fi Mesh Router On Sale 131
juxter writes "Following the announcement
earlier this month, LocustWorld are now selling pre-built hardware MeshAPs for use as instant turn-key nodes in community
mesh networks. (pictures here) - Featuring auto-updating and auto-configuration via a centralized management site, these are designed with 'Joe PC' in mind."
Locustworld... (Score:5, Funny)
Will find cache for karma (Score:5, Informative)
I'm such a whore.
Re:Will find cache for karma (Score:1, Interesting)
Heh heh heh (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Heh heh heh (Score:2)
What about me? (Score:2, Funny)
This is the problem with Linux, always being targeted at the needs of a smallish audience.
F-bacher
Re:What about me? (Score:1)
Speech (Score:2, Insightful)
Learn it.
No, Not Joe (Score:2, Funny)
This would be Timmy The Computer Hippie. He drinks Red Bull and builds his own boxen. He like to watch Friends and Ally McBeal.
Joe PC (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Joe PC (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a reason they didn't use the name "abacus-granny".
Re:Joe PC... or was it someone else? (Score:1)
Joe PC (Score:1)
What I want to know is when they'll be building apps for this market (besides www.persiankitty.com)....
oh well...
Mesh topology? How about cell topo? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo? (Score:5, Funny)
My favourite kind of sphere ;)
Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo? (Score:4, Informative)
In this case, the "cells" communicate with each other intensively, because most of them have no Internet connection at all. They pass packets from AP to AP until they arrive at one that can actually forward them onto the Net.
Thus, these access points do merge together into a seamless communications transport that seems worthy of the name "mesh".
Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo? (Score:3, Interesting)
If I use this in my 5th floor apartment - how far will the signal be usable. What if i stick it on the roof of my building. What if I zip tie it to a phone pole outside my house?
Can you answer these.... with real praactical answers?
Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo? (Score:3, Informative)
A directional antenna pointed at the park across the street from a 5th story window would work great.
Not cell, not star, but mesh (Score:4, Interesting)
This is a very cool development, and I can't wait until a network develops in my neighborhood. I wonder how dense these things have to be to get good coverage in an urban environment?
Re:Not cell, not star, but mesh (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't want to sound like i'm nagging or anything, but why wait. Take the init and plop one down yourself, tell everyone (well everyone that would want to know) and get the ball rolling yourself.
karpe noctum
Re:Not cell, not star, but mesh (Score:2)
The right way to do this is with bandwidth cooperatives. You just need a couple of wired points in your mesh where you are licensed to share upstream bandwidth, then you can expand outward from those points. I can think of a number of interesting business plans to develop networks like this, and I might consider some of them in the context of an educational initiative I'm trying to get off the ground. OTOH, if someone else gets there first, I'd be perfectly happy to drop a few hundred and mount one of these boxes in my attic.
It would have been even more useful in the first year or so of my DSL service when it was a bit unreliable. I'm sure that I would want to keep my DSL service in the near term until I have some confidence in the reliability of the mesh network. It sure would be nice if this kind of configuration was fully supported by the AP so that mesh traffic stays on the mesh, and both authorized wireless and wired nodes could be routed either through the mesh or a wired ISP connection.
Setting this up on a linux server? (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyone know if you can run their software on an existing linux server? I'm using my linux gateway/firewall as my AP right now, but the new protocol looks like it could be a lot of fun. On their site, however, I can only find info about running it either on an access point or by booting off of a CD, which would kind of mess up all the other stuff I do on that machine. Anyone have any info on how to run it without booting off a removable disk?
Re:Setting this up on a linux server? (Score:2)
What's the range on these things? (Score:1)
Re:What's the range on these things? (Score:1)
commodity hardware (Score:5, Interesting)
- Motherboard and case from CaseOutlet.com [caseoutlet.com]; you get a choice of 533MHz or 800MHz, for about $200. Motherboard and CPU alone are $100.
- CF-to-IDE adapter from various sources, for about $20
- 32MB CF card for $15 (512M for about $175)
- wireless PCI 802.11b adapter, for about $40
Total cost: $275.This takes a few minutes to put together. You get a choice between 12V or 120V power supply.
commodity hardware (Score:2)
If CF-to-IDE adapters are so cheap, why are the CF based solid state IDE hard disks so expensive!?! I've been waiting for Sandisk's 1GB 2.5" ide drive to come down under $500 so I can replace my laptop drive. It doesn't look like that will happen any time soon.
Re: commodity hardware (Score:1)
Re: commodity hardware (Score:2)
Re: commodity hardware (Score:2)
CF is really slow. If you actually use your laptop for anything but surfing pr0n, you probably don't want a CF solid state drive.
Re: commodity hardware (Score:2)
-Paul Komarek
Re: commodity hardware (Score:1)
Re: commodity hardware (Score:1)
Not particularly relevant (hence I unchecked the +1 bonus =-), but one of Cray's old vector machines had static ram for main memory with an incredible fabric between ram and cpus. If I remember correctly, it was a "butterfly" network (5 years after I learned about it, I don't much remember it anymore =-).
-Paul Komarek
Re: commodity hardware (Score:4, Informative)
The reason that CF-based IDE drives are so expensive is that Flash memory is expensive to manufacture.
Re: commodity hardware (Score:1)
f CF-to-IDE adapters are so cheap, why are the CF based solid state IDE hard disks so expensive!?! I've been waiting for Sandisk's 1GB 2.5" ide drive to come down under $500 so I can replace my laptop drive. It doesn't look like that will happen any time soon.
Because Flash is expensive, that's why.
And you won't be replacing an IDE HDD with a CF card for very long. Flash has a limited number of write cycles. And it's dog-slow.
A few minutes to put the hardware together, but... (Score:2)
Re:commodity hardware (Score:2)
Re:commodity hardware (Score:1)
Re:commodity hardware (Score:1)
What motherboard+CPU did you see there for under $250? I couldn't find a motherboard for a fanless CPU, other than Crusoe, Pentium or 486DX4, and even they were $250-$380 without CPU.
Re:commodity hardware (Score:2)
I am running a default Redhat desktop on it as we speak. Installed right out of the box.
Re:commodity hardware (Score:1)
The Via Eden 533mhz x86 based platform goes for about $90.
Most excellent. Thank you for the pointer. However the Via Eden isn't on the site mentioned. :-)
Re:commodity hardware (Score:2)
http://www.caseoutlet.com/NWPc/2677/itx2677.htm
Get the Eden 533MHz version for a fanless motherboard.
Re:commodity hardware (Score:1)
What about bandwidth? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What about bandwidth? (Score:1)
Re:What about bandwidth? (Score:1)
The thing looks fairly expandable as well, it probably is no trick to add to it.
Re:What about bandwidth? (Score:1)
system specs (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:system specs (Score:2)
RAM is cheap, so I don't know why they haven't embedded RAM on the motherboard like all the other devices, and the VIA EPIA Eden already has a place for a Disk-on-Chip, but the boards sold as of now don't have a DOC installed.
Linux based PVR and Network devices can still be made using the Via Epia Eden by just adding a PCI TV Tuner, PCI NIC, etc... I have Linux installed on my Epia Eden. No fans, low power consumption... I leave it on all the time!
Re:system specs (Score:1)
No it wouldn't! Why do people say this? For one thing, 4-port NICs are *expensive*. You can buy a cheap 4-port switched router.
Even if you were to get a 4-port card for free, Linux will *not* be able to forward or even bridge the packets fast enough.
Alternative Solution (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Alternative Solution - HOWTO URL (Score:2)
you pay a premium for size (Score:5, Interesting)
The Soekris has a number of advantages, primarily that it's smaller and that it is happy with just 5V or 7-20V DC. But you pay a premium for those features, and you sacrifice functionality. The Mini ITX gives you a standard PCI slot, many more I/O options, much better performance, and more I/O ports.
I think, given its functionality, the "value" of something like the Soekris 486 boards really "should be" around $50 these days, and that's what it probably would be if it really were manufactured in huge quantities. Does anybody know of a low-cost 486 PC104 board like that?
Re:you pay a premium for size (Score:5, Interesting)
* "The Soekris motherboard costs $196" It's not a motherboard, it's a single board computer. You know that and I know that, but it makes a big difference for someone not familiar with the board.
* The Mini-ITX stuff is very new, using very new technology, and I haven't seen one yet with three eth ifaces, two 'pci' slots (one mini-pci, one 3.3v pci), and two serial ports. One of the Soekris eth ifaces is net-bootable.
* The Mini-ITX stuff is fanless, but still hotter than the Soekris. I expect the Mini-ITX stuff (esp. w/ enough gear to do what the net4501 does) draws a lot more power than the 0.06A at 120V during normal (not idle) operation. Of course, the cpu on the Mini-ITX stuff is much faster. That probably doesn't matter to the target market of the net4501, because of their applications (hardware-assisted vpn and other WAN routing/firewalling tasks).
* Besides being smaller and lighter (as you mention), the net4501 runs cooler than the C3 and does not need a heat sink.
* I wonder if the Soekris has been vibration tested and such. Since the Mini-ITX stuff requires assembly (cpu, heat sink, network cards, etc), it probably couldn't withstand much vibration without some ruggedizing.
* You cannot find equivalent functionality to the net4501 for $50 anywhere (see my next paragraph =-). The net4501 is a bargain for the intended audience. And pc104 stuff is generally more expensive, because of the slightly more compact form factor and fancy i/o stuff.
I've spent a *lot* of time looking for SBCs like the net4501 but less expensive. There aren't any (yet). That's why I've got a net4501 handling many of my gateway and network tasks. For another $100 or so dollars, you can get a nice 3-port 300MHz NatSemi Geode board from Acrosser (AR-B1550, fanless and very compact) that seems adequate for file serving, mail serving, and light web serving. As with the Soekris, I haven't found better prices on compact fanless SBCs anywhere.
FWIW, the folks at Soekris and Acrosser are very pleasant to work with, and the user communities are nice.
-Paul Komarek
Re:you pay a premium for size (Score:2)
The 533MHz supposedly consumes 1W, and the 800MHz 5W (I haven't measured it).
The Mini-ITX stuff is very new, using very new technology
I dunno--looks like pretty run-of-the-mill PC technology to me.
with three eth ifaces, two 'pci' slots (one mini-pci, one 3.3v pci), and two serial ports
Well, no, but it comes with single or dual regular PCI slots (depending on riser), dual USB, Ethernet, VGA, S-video, Audio, PS/2, and serial, probably a more useful collection for many applications.
Re:you pay a premium for size (Score:2)
I'm not sure how to interpret the cpu power draw. I really want to know about system power, which is what I was measuring on the Soekris (with a regular VOM, not a power meter).
I agree that many applications want "PC" ports. The Soekris isn't being marketed or sold into those markets. By the same token, the Mini-ITX C3 stuff is tremendous overkill for VPN WAN routers.
The Mini-ITX stuff I've seen (not much, and only on the web) doesn't seem to have bios-over-serial and built-in net-booting, which are very nice (if not essential) for "embedded" operation.
I noted that VIA's suggested power supplies either had fans, except for that TK fanless ATX supply (which costs $150). I'm using a wall brick for my net4501.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the price, power, and engineering considerations for a Mini-ITX system *must* include the net-booting eth card and other "accessories", the power supply that probably has moving parts, and the additional heat output.
I think I may use a C3 system when I get around to my fanless mailserver and Zope box, and I'll be willing to pay for all the extra equipment (including that TK supply). But the C3 isn't needed for serving nfs at home or acting as a DSL firewall. Since I want my gateway, nfs server, and web server to run on separate cpus (admin and security reasons), I'm trying to by the least expensive box for each task. The net4501 ended up an excellent choice for my network tasks, including gateway, router, wireless router, and firewall.
We're just thinking of different applications.
-Paul Komarek
Re:you pay a premium for size (Score:3, Informative)
There are cheap, wall-brick power supplies for these boards; the CaseOutlet cases come with one.
Mini-ITX system *must* include the net-booting eth card and other "accessories", the power supply that probably has moving parts, and the additional heat output
The onboard Ethernet net-boots; there isn't much else that you need, except maybe a $20 CF-to-IDE adapter.
Re:you pay a premium for size (Score:2)
I would definitely miss the serial bios console. I say this as an admin of 7 headless macines (4 Alpha boxes, 2 x86, one net4501). It is a real pain to drag monitors around to back of racks when you need to fiddle with them. Not that the Soekris has it, but remote management consoles rock; even if the kernel wedges, you can still power cycle remotely.
I'm really hoping you're going to reply with "such-and-such Mini-ITX board has a serial bios". If you tell me it has a remote management console, I'll know you're lying. =-)
Let's do a comparison, then:
Gateway, Router, Wirless Access Point, Firewall with DMZ iface (which is precisely why I bought a board with three ifaces):
$232+shipping: Soekris net4501 with case and psu
$60+shipping: D-Link DWL-520
-------
About $300.
I'm using nfs root right now, but might use an 8MB cf card soon. I have two that came free with digital cameras, but new ones seem to be about $4.
How much would a similar 3-iface Mini-ITX system cost? I'm not trying to prove anything here, just trying to find out if I should have waited before buying the Soekris setup for $300.
-Paul Komarek.
Re:you pay a premium for size (Score:2)
http://www.viavpsd.com/product/Download.jsp?mother boardId=21 [viavpsd.com]
Note also the upcoming EPIA-M motherboard, which features USB2, FireWire, and 933MHz clock speed.
As for serial consoles, it appears that the Linux Bios has been ported to it:
http://www.trustytech.com/TMBM-MINI-ITX.htm [trustytech.com]
That would not only give you serial console management, but also very fast Linux boots.
How much would a similar 3-iface Mini-ITX system cost?
Pretty much the same amount: motherboard, CPU, case, PCI riser, screws, cables, and brick power supply from CaseOutlet.com [caseoutlet.com] costs a little under $200. Add to that a $20 CF-to-IDE adapter and the DWL-520. If you want to use lower-cost 5 1/4" drives, you can get a slightly larger case for slightly more money.
Another choice is the WalMart Linux PC [walmart.com], which appears to be using same motherboard, but for $228 also gives you a minitower, a CD-ROM drive, and a 10G disk, and perhaps more fans than you like.
Re:you pay a premium for size (Score:2)
Re:you pay a premium for size (Score:1)
Please... (Score:1)
isn't this overkill? (Score:5, Insightful)
My own version of this that I built last year mostly out of parts I had laying around when I was too cheap to buy a real ap:
66MHz Pentium w/ small AT Mobo
32MB RAM
AT P/S
Floppy
ISA to ribbon cable to nice 2 card PCMCIA socket ($5 from ebay +$5s/h)
Orinoco card ($60)
WRP on a floppy from nocat.net
random Intel PCI NIC
This little baby, named Gates, ran faithfully for about six months until my roommate finally got a real ap.
Re:isn't this overkill? (Score:1)
The extra layer of encryption ontop of WEP is always helpful.
Re:isn't this overkill? (Score:1)
Call me paranoid!
It dosen't hurt anything by having both, so we do.
Holy Crap! (Score:1)
Soft-mesh? (Score:1)
Isn't it possible to have software -- roughly similar to a proxy server -- run on the different computers in a wireless network to achieve a similar sort of mesh effect for smaller networks.
It would be handy to use other computers in the house as repeaters, i.e., not have to buy separate boxes or run extra network cable for additional access points.
Re:Soft-mesh? (Score:2)
We've deployed it around the office and it is suprisingly effective. Multihopping also gives you other benefits, like better throughput. For example, instead of communicating directly with an AP at 5 Mbps, you can hop at 11Mbps and get double the throughput.
It really is cool stuff, but it isnt as open as this Locustworld stuff. Each has their place though.
Re:Soft-mesh? (Score:1)
Give us a break....
Re:Soft-mesh? (Score:2)
And that is the problem. We never intended to manufacture this stuff, rather we were supposed to license it to manufacturers. Things have changed as of late, and now we're shipping product.
The other product line is a proprietary chip, which we've had for months, but haven't been selling in volume. The chip is dirt cheap, but the supporting PC card board is costly for us to make, and consequently, the cards are ridiculously expensive.
And I'm good friends with our sales guys. I find it hard to believe they weren't itching to selling it to ya =). Mail em, sales at meshnetworks dot com.
What's in it for me? (Score:3, Interesting)
IP range 1.x.y.z and no routing to/from the "old" internet.
Can any gurus out there tell me about possible uses for this?
Can I E-mail anyone on the old Internet from this new user-driven, no-subnet, free net?
Re:What's in it for me? (Score:2)
This new parallel Internet on the other hand, it's got no public routeable IP numbers, right? Hence it must forever stay a parallel network.
Won't this new network stay pretty useless until content providers start making contents available on the new network?
Btw, dont talk about drugs as if using them was normal. It's not.
Re:What's in it for me? (Score:2)
Your ADSL router provides either IP Masqurading, or IP NAT features for your internal network. The mesh network gateways will provide the same capabilities. If you connect to the mesh before the AP that you use establishes a connection to a gateway, your host will connect through to the internet (once the gateway has been propigated) through a proxy service running on the AP that you connect to.
I did not see any handoff protocols specified (for mobile users with iPaqs, Zaurus and laptop users who do move around.) in the document, however it is possible that was specified in one of the protocols identified, and just not highlighted.
After all, I could be wrong.
-Rusty
Re:What's in it for me? (Score:1, Informative)
It will seek a net connection via DHCP on a wired interface and setup ad-hoc routing over wireless to other locust nodes, with a default route via the regular net connection.
Re:What's in it for me? (Score:1)
The FAQ files didn't mention those facts (or I just could not find it).
Re:What's in it for me? (Score:2)
It's true however, that if noone had a true net connection, a mesh/web could be "off-line" to the internet (yet still function if you were trying to contact someone else in your web... if you happened to know their private IP.).
It's also true, that if this eventually takes off, and the density of AP's increase (and the technology continues to get better) such a mesh may become more of the 'default' "Internet" than the hard-wired one we use now. Granted, that's pie-in-the-sky thinking, and 5 years away.
-malakai
RTFM - here it is. (Score:2)
Is it a true AP? (Score:4, Informative)
Given they use Prism II hardware, I don't understand why they don't use the hostap [epitest.fi] drivers.
BSS mode has scalability advantages, because it solves the 'hidden sender' problem. ie even though 802.11 nodes always listen to check that the channel is clear before sending, there is a danger that two nodes at opposite extremes won't be able to hear each other, and will try to send at the same time, resulting in collisions. A true AP, running in BSS mode, helps aleviate this problem.)
802.11b/Wifi and mesh (Score:1)
Could i just plug it in somewhere else in my house and have it work? or, would the mesh have to be separate from the wifi network, with it's own gateway AP?
and if so, could my wife's iBook with an airport card still connect to the mesh?
All of the mesh networking sites seem to think the answer to this question is just so basic so as to be not worth answering...
What is a "Community Mesh"? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What is a "Community Mesh"? (Score:1)
Channel Contention (Score:1)
Last Post! (Score:1)
and planets. Build a ring 93 million miles in radius -- one Earth orbit
-- around the sun. If we have the mass of Jupiter to work with, and if
we make it a thousand miles wide, we get a thickness of about a thousand
feet for the base.
And it has advantages. The Ringworld will be much sturdier than a Dyson
sphere. We can spin it on its axis for gravity. A rotation speed of 770
m/s will give us a gravity of one Earth normal. We wouldn't even need to
roof it over. Place walls one thousand miles high at each edge, facing the
sun. Very little air will leak over the edges.
Lord knows the thing is roomy enough. With three million times the surface
area of the Earth, it will be some time before anyone complains of the
crowding.
-- Larry Niven, "Ringworld"
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...