Real Time Vehicle Tracking Made Easy 207
Makarand writes "The Washington Post has an
article
about a vehicle tracking system built by a
start-up 10-20.com.
The system uses low orbit satellites for exchanging location information making it
available anywhere in the US. The tracking device,
the size of a paperback, can be installed in any vehicle and powered by a battery.
A small antenna installed on top sends signals to satellites marking its
position on a web-based map. The equipment costs around $1000 and monthly
fees range from $20 to $65. The service plan will determine how often your position will be updated by the system. The tracking system
FAQ on the company website is pretty detailed."
this could be good (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:this could be good (Score:2)
Of course, if it's your employers truck, you might not easily be able to explain the second time your antenna goes missing.
Stealth Antennas (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
It already Exists!! (Score:1)
Affordable Countermeasure (Score:4, Funny)
...or ride a bike! (Score:2)
Ooh yeah. I have a stealth bike, uh huh.
Re:Affordable Countermeasure (Score:5, Informative)
Tracker is also cheaper than this US system.
Troc
And then... (Score:2)
When they say, "Huh, what juices!?", you point behind them and say, "Oh, my god!!! A roquefort monster!!!!" As nobody knows what roquefort is ("let's see now, we got your yellow cheese, your white cheese, your swiss cheese, and your american cheese, that covers it") they will have to turn and look to see what this thing is. Take this opportunity to punch them in the back of the head and then run away in your tinfoil covered car. They won't be able to track you!
Except by following the shiny reflection.
Car Rentals (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Car Rentals (Score:2)
Re:Car Rentals (Score:2)
Re:Car Rentals (Score:3, Informative)
The contract stated that the driver could be penalized for not obeying local traffic laws, but it was not clear in the contract that the car rental company could institute the fine without corrobration from the local police.
I'm sure that the car rental company has changed the relevant language in the contract.
Re:Car Rentals (Score:2)
Re:Car Rentals (Score:1)
In other words, it did not affect the ability of car rental companies to monitor the customers, but only the ability to charge credit cards without disclosure.
Antenna on top? (Score:5, Interesting)
Not for theft... (Score:2)
LoJack does well enough for theft deterrence/recovery, I don't think they are trying to compete in that market...
This is only the first step (Score:4, Funny)
The logical conclusion I have arrived at after reading Slashdot for 1 week straight without sleep is thus: your organs will be tagged and stolen by radioactive agents of the CIA who use their penises to transmit secret recipies for Swedish meatballs. Just look at the latest article on embeddable tagging and tracking devices. They are out to violate your privacy! Before long, all your Constitutionally-protected privacy information will be in linked up in a big government database so that deranged mechanicals can encase you in concrete and have their way with you before torturing you to death!
I can't stress enough the importance of stopping this technology now. You will not be able to sleep until this insidious global conspiracy is stopped.
Re:This is only the first step (Score:2)
Surgeon General's warning: This kind of behaviour could land you dead in a toilet somewhere... cyber-cafe style.
Credit Card? (Score:4, Interesting)
Can I pay via a credit card?
Not at this time. We accept PayPal, corporate checks, and certified funds for payment at this time. We are currently working on accepting credit cards.
I don't know how safe I would feel doing business with a professional company that requires PayPal to accept credit cards.
Re:Credit Card? (Score:4, Insightful)
PayPal is unprofessional, and definitely unacceptable for such a large payment (One-Time Equipment Fee: $700) to a professional company.
$700?!? for what? It's not even theft protection (a thief can break the antenna). Really, a cell phone (or even a sattelite phone) provides essentially all the same functionality (and almost certainly for less money).
I'd say they go bankrupt within 3 years, making that lovely equipment you bought useless to you.
Re:Credit Card? (Score:2)
Incidentally, I'm reminded of a certain web-based discussion forum [slashdot.org] that started its subscription system with PayPal only.
Gosh, how fast people can forget.
Re:Credit Card? (Score:2)
Re:Credit Card? (Score:2)
Look at it this way: at BG Micro [bgmicro.com] you can now buy a GPS module, with serial output, for less than $20. A minor microcontroller circuit and a cellphone or cellphone module later, and you have your little tracking device.
The monthly fees are about right for cellphone access, and the large equipment cost certainly leaves enough room for a profit.
I could certainly build such a device, order cellphone service for my customers' areas, and provide a server to phone home to. And I would also have to be paid some way other than by credit card.
By the way, someone was selling a strikingly similar service on eBay, for the same price. There were a bunch of those auctions with all the huge all-caps text and yellow backgrounds, etc.,.
Finally something to help me track my Time Vehicle (Score:2, Funny)
Don't they... (Score:1)
...do commercials featuring ALF [tvshows.de] and Emmitt Smith [nfl.com]?
Never mind... that's 10-10-220 [10-10-220.com].
Re:Don't they... (Score:1)
Ha! I kill me!
So, how long before... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:So, how long before... (Score:1)
A company in the UK has this... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:A company in the UK has this... (Score:2)
let's think twice about this (Score:3, Funny)
Sure, they're loved ones until they get this and the spouse figures out where they're really going on those "business trips."
har har.
Re:let's think twice about this (Score:3, Funny)
New Economy (Score:5, Funny)
Re:New Economy (Score:2)
Re:New Economy(seriously) (Score:2)
Re:New Economy(seriously) (Score:3, Funny)
Yea dad... (Score:5, Funny)
It's as if millions of hormonal boys suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.
-S
Re:Yea dad... (Score:2, Funny)
wow (Score:3, Funny)
(speaking of which, since this stuff was in superhero books for the longest time - was there anything remotely similar before this?)
thank Gawd (Score:2, Funny)
OnStar (Score:5, Interesting)
I could see it beneficial, however, for company vehicles or the 16-year-old kid busting at the seams with testosterone.
newsworthy? (Score:2, Interesting)
Its been commercialised much before.... (Score:2)
Serial Ports (Score:3, Interesting)
look [10-20.com]
What are those for and are we allowed to play with them?
Re:Serial Ports (Score:5, Funny)
All the better to install Linux on them and then making a mobile Beowulf cluster.
Not completely fool proof!!! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Not completely fool proof!!! (Score:2)
As someone who's been through Baltimore's Harbor and Ft. McHenry Tunnels more times than I care to think about, I can tell you that those don't work in tunnels either. At least not until they build repeaters into the tunnel.
Cell phone gps car alarms... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cell phone gps car alarms... (Score:1)
Re:Cell phone gps car alarms... (Score:5, Informative)
There are many different cell phone tracking technologies being developed for E911 purposes. They can also be used for other purposes (stolen car tracking/shipment tracking/finding bad guys/traffic probes):
1. GPS-enabled. The only problem is getting the satellites when you're under cover (trees/tall buildings/indoors) and it takes a while to sync up. You also MUST have a GPS on every phone you wish to track. I'll bet the cell phone manufacturers like this one the best.
2. Time difference of arrival (TDOA) is an infrastructure-based method that measures what time a particular signal hits different sets of antennas. Not especially resistant to multi-path and requires very accurate timing.
3. Phase angle of arrival. Measures the phase angle of incoming signals between the phone and different receiving sites. Triangulates and find the phone within 100 yards or so. Works pretty well in a multipath environment. Also infrastructure based.
Your wish has been granted. (Score:2)
TruckSecure (Score:2, Informative)
It can be used to track hazardous materials shipments, plus provide access and security controls to the vehicles.
Pretty cool actually.
----
This is a good thing... (Score:3, Funny)
uh... (Score:3, Funny)
Laymen's terms (Score:1)
$20- puts a dot on a map showing where Johnny is at the moment
$65- shows who Johnny is making out with on the lookout point outside of town
Re:Laymen's terms (Score:2, Insightful)
So (Score:1)
Lojack on crack (Score:5, Interesting)
My primary experience has been with APRS, the Automatic Position Reporting System. It's in many ways similar to this system. It's used quite extensively by ham radio operators to coordinate public service activities, track storms out in tornado ally, etc.
The neat thing about APRS is that it isn't just a position tracking system, but it's a distributed network of repeating stations linked via radio and landlines. Here are some neat links you might find interesting:
Already exists (Score:5, Informative)
Been there, doing it right now. (Score:4, Interesting)
But I guess it's nice to know that there is a commercial version avaliable.
APRS (Score:5, Informative)
HAM radio operators have been doing this for a while, but cheaper (with slightly more effort):
License: ~$10 testing fee
Basic GPS: ~$100
APRS packet-capable radio: ~$300 (US)
A couple of cables: ~$20
The GPS sends location data to the radio, which broadcasts digital packets to a "digipeater," which is wired to the internet...
A trip to findu.com and you're tracking. No monthly fees, plus you can use all the equipment for other stuff.
Re:APRS (Score:3, Informative)
Close but not quite. Most digipeaters are NOT connected to the net. They simply digipeat the packet to a much wider area than the original. The device that sends the data to the internet network is called an "IGate". My friend Sean has created a floppy based linux distro that has IGate software on it. Here it is, if you would like to check it out. [rimboy.com]
Re:APRS (Score:5, Funny)
License: ~$10 testing fee
Basic GPS: ~$100
APRS packet-capable radio: ~$300 (US)
A couple of cables: ~$20
Realizing you're never going to get laid again: Priceless.
Re:APRS (Score:2)
Damn, you beat me to it.
Re:APRS (Score:2, Funny)
This system is weak... (Score:3, Interesting)
I know it's not the same thing, but simply covering the antenna of a GPS unit with your hand almost always renders it useless. (I'm not suggesting you ride down the road with your hand on top of the car. My point is it should be relative simple to "break".)
"Geeze. I dunno, boss. I didn't notice it was malfunctioning when I was out on the road."
Of course bossman would probably get suspicious if it was ALWAYS not working when a particular employee was using said vehicle.
(Please be kind with your modding. I tried to submit this an hour ago but submissions were broken.)
Re:This system is weak... (Score:2)
Fines (Score:2, Interesting)
It's not illegal (Score:2)
While some might want to point out that the rental car company has no right to act as the police: It's called Terms of Service. Lots of ISPs use this to enforce rules of theirs that have nothing to do with the law.
All the rental car company has to do is say in legalese, "We reserve the right to charge you $n if our GPS tracking system indicates that you drive over x miles per hour."
How about an open source solution instead? (Score:5, Interesting)
Our solution used XML and Web Services from end to end, doing XML/SOAP parsing on the embedded processor to a back end J2EE system and also to a
Our J2EE server was a Linux box, running Tomcat, JBoss and lots of other open source stuff, including my own open source, Java, GPS Library code [chaeron.com].
All this in our spare time, with very little expense. We blew away a lot of people when we demo'ed it at JavaOne this past Spring (the big boys like Sun/IBM/BEA et were just talking about the interoperability promise of Web Services...while were were demoing it live...to an embedded processor no less).
There's a white paper [chaeron.com] available that describes (in detail) what we did and the software/hardware that we used, for those that are interested.
And being mounted on an R/C truck gave it serious geek coolosity factor too!
So what's the big deal?
Talk about overkill! (Score:3, Insightful)
Been there, done that, none of this J2EE, Tomcat, JBoss (read simply: Java bloat) BS. Just some small applications that can fit in an 8-bit microcontroller such as a PIC or an AVR (Tracker side) and a single floppy on the server/gateway side.
bummer (Score:5, Funny)
And then...like...half my car was...gone.
And I was like....(wait...).... ghnuhhhuh?
It devoured....my car...
And it was a really good car.
And then I had to track it again, and I had to do it fast, so it wasn't as good...
It's kind of
Credit to E.F.. student
South African scenario (Score:2, Informative)
In South Africa where vehicle theft and vehicle hijackings are at record breaking levels, there have been vehicle tracking systems for private vehicle owners and also fleet operators for a number of years.
Look at www.netstar.co.za [netstar.co.za] and www.tracker.co.za [tracker.co.za].
Both of these companies have a good track record. No excuse for the pun.
$1000 is 'cheap'? Remote immobilisers are better. (Score:4, Insightful)
The thing is, most people don't need to keep track of their cars. Even fleet managers don't NEED to keep track of their cars. You can get remote immobilisers that use pagers so you can call them up and the car is immobilised.
If someone steals you car, call the immobiliser and stop them in their tracks rather than chase them across the state on your map.
where is the security (Score:3, Interesting)
What is the time delay between a point being logged by the tracking device and that point appearing on the web page?
Usually it is less than 12 minutes.
Lets assume that in town the average speed is 30 mph. That means a car can go about 6 miles in any direction, or like 100 mile^2 area to be searched for the car. The antennae can easily be broken off.
or this
Does the tracking system work indoors or underground?
I wonder if chop shops are out in the open with line of sight to satellites or in enclosed warehouses.
I want my child to have this in their vehicle for emergency situations, but they object to my tracking their every move. What is the solution?
I understand how this sort of thing is useful in the consequences/rewards sequences of parenting, but parents making decisions because their offspring object, and not because thier offspring has earned the right to certain freedoms is just scary. It's like giving a child an Expedition not becuase the child knows how to drive it without killing other people but because thier peers(or the parents peers) will not respect them if they have anything less.
Qualcomm has been doing this for over 10 years (Score:5, Interesting)
We use OmniTracs [qualcomm.com] and virtually almost every fleet owner does the same.
It does much more then positioning tracking, allowing us 2way communications and email anywhere in the world, but it does the same thing.
It's a love-hate relationship. On one hand you hate it because they know where you are at all times, at other times I love it, as the computer guesstimates when I'm going to get somewhere and dispatches me a new load before I even deliver this one.
It's not very accurate (sometimes it tracks me 250 miles away from where I am) and a tree, bridge, or other obstruction will render it inoperable for a good minute or 2 whilst it attempts to find the satellite, but overall it's not to bad.
What is old is new (Score:5, Interesting)
When my team and I built our first company we developed a web location based application service provider (ASP). We provided solutions to a wide array of customers and their vehicles (delivery trucks, long haul trucking, cars, yachts, ferries, tug boats, & emergency services). In addition we built the system to allow for numerous mechanisms of data collection (digital cellular, analog cellular, Orbcomm satellite, GlobalWave satellite, and trials with Iridium).
For our server and client technologies we adopted Java, Linux and open source database solutions (MySQL) to cut costs. Often we were burned by these technologies as we started with good ol' JDK 1.1, first incarnations of servlets, poor, poor JDBC drivers, and waded through the issues of on and off support of Java in Internet Explorer. (Most of our clients used IE on Windows.)
We offered services including automated collection of road taxes, automated driver's logs, enhanced driver safety, and monthly and weekly reports and logs. (Among a ton of other custom services.)
Basically all of these systems have some means of positioning determination. This is commonly via GPS (Global Positioning System satellites) since good receivers are now relatively cheap and readily available. However, other positioning methodologies exist using things like radio triangulation, time and direction of arrival (TDOA), angle of arrival, and simple cell sector for ground based wireless communication networks. Contrary to what some seem to think, GPS satellites only provide *you* with *your* location, and you must use a secondary communication medium to transmit that information to somewhere useful.
We found when we competed in this market the choice of hardware technology really limited your target market. If what you want located (Found) was mostly in urban areas you could take advantage of much higher data rates and lower communication expenses. This allows you to send regular positioning updates with things like two-way text messaging to consoles in the vehicle, and other onboard vehicle sensors. In other instances (marine and aviation) you may be forced to use satellite technology. In general satellite communication is an order of magnitude lower bandwidth, higher delay, and more expensive. When it is the only means of data connectivity it is amazing, but to cut costs and deliver the larger value added services higher data rates and lower costs of cellular systems usually make more sense.
Of course there are hybrid solutions like simply storing the logged data and forward it on when you picked up the next cellular network along the vehicles travels. Or better is a true hybrid of sending small positioning and important packets infrequently in satellite coverage, and providing the richer detail on reconnection with the cellular network.
While interesting, as others have stated this idea is not new. We had this ASP up and running in 1998. And we had previous incarnations years before.
Buses (Score:3, Interesting)
I would love to be able to load up a page and see where my bus currently is so that I can better gauge when I have to leave to catch it.
Even better, something that delivers to portable devices as well (cell phones/pdas) so that when I do arrive at the bus stop, I can check to see if I just missed it and I should hop on an alternate or if it's a couple blocks away.
Seems like all the technology is in place - anyone seen a bus system doing something like this?
-h3
Re:Buses (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Real Time? (Score:3, Interesting)
What is the time delay between a point being logged by the tracking device and that point appearing on the web page?
Usually it is less than 12 minutes.
How is this real time? There is no mention [google.com] of real time at all on the web site, so where did the article submitter get this from?
Rather Obsolete (Score:2, Interesting)
Have a look at this place [rojone.com.au], excuse the clipart website but it's a MUCH better and though through product (less greedy too, no subscription fees). Uses common GPS and will call you up *on voice* (or SMS) to tell you your car is on the move (or the alarm has been set off or anything). You can even phone it up and forcibly talk to the driver, perhaps as they say to tell them that the police are following them :) Other features via phone control include remote immobilisation and all the usual GPS location/speed/heading info.
It seemed to me just such a smart product and far superior to the greedy other systems some companies have. And of course as it uses GPS it won't be useless if the manufacturer goes out of business.
I hate to sound like a bit of an add but it really irked me to see attention given to another product that just seemed to be a source of revenue through silly monthly subscription fees.
Re:Rather Obsolete (Score:2)
Often there is no cellphone coverage in rural areas, and sometimes it is even sketchy in some parts of cities...
EPIRB -Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons (Score:2, Informative)
For hobby use, APRS, mentioned above works well, and even the Space Station is equipped. APRS is beginning to show up in consumer walkie-talkies as well.
OnStar and various private services use GPS and the cellphone and/or pager networks, and GPS in cellphones will soon become obiquious. I expect these folks won't sell many at that pricepoint for a single-purpose system.
10-20 origins... (Score:3, Interesting)
"Driver 4, what's your 20?"
It's in the same vein as 10-4 for "acknowledged, affirmitive" (etc), which I'm sure you all have heard of.
(Until last week, I was a dispatcher for a courier company).
Re:10-20 origins... (Score:2)
With Republicans running the show... (Score:2)
you just wait. It wont be long before this device (and others like it...onstar, etc) are MANDATORY in vehicles. This will be tied into the felon Poindexter's Information Awareness computer system so that he and the government can get even tighter spying and tracking of the movements and lives of all Americans.
As useful as something like this can be, it can also be abused (and already has been, ie, ticketing rental car users for speeding as a result of tracking their movements via GPS). These services/devices will be perverted into another spying/privacy violating tool for Poindexter, the Republicans, and any two-bit dictator wannabe that they put into official positions of power.
Waste of money (Score:2)
I mean, come on, it's got to be easier to keep someone from stealing it in the first place, than to track it after it's been stolen. And how hard do you think it's going to be for the thieves to disconnet this once they've stolen it?
Divorce rate will skyrocket (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Divorce rate will skyrocket (Score:2, Funny)
A person that I know of has a tracking device in a vehicle that she purchased for her boyfriend (his credit sucked, so the loan is in her name). She installed the tracking device to make sure he wasn't doing anything stupid with the car. They end up breaking up and he keeps the car, but he's still making payments to her since the loan is in her name.
She comes to find out that said boyfriend had been cheating on her with someone she knows. Said boyfriend knows nothing about the tracking device (it's tucked away in the dashboard, so you wouldn't find it unless you tore everything apart).
Now the fun part...she keeps tabs on said boyfriend and waits for him to visit said woman. If she's feeling particulary mean that day, she disables the car's ignition while he's in the house. I can only imagine how pissed off this guy must be...how do you explain that to a mechanic?
Boyfriend: "Well, every time I make a booty call, my car doesn't start."
Mechanic: "Does it happen any other time?"
Boyfriend: "Nope, only when I go to her house."
Mechanic: *gives boyfriend the "you must be retarded" look*
Who said playing Big Brother isn't fun?
Seems needlessly complex (Score:2)
* Intellectual property is encoded in this message. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA. I will exercise this right should anyone run with the idea and not send me a nice check.
10-20 vs. 10-73 and 10-100 (Score:3, Funny)
10-20.com founder comments on previous posts... (Score:2, Informative)
- "It already exists": Yes, there are competitors to the 10-20.com system, but most of them use the cell phone network to move their data. One of our main selling points is that this works anywhere in North America, not just areas that have cell phone or 2-way pager coverage. Our market is the long-range traveler: small businesses with large geographic ranges, field service vehicles (oil, forestry, land management), RV's, off-road vehicles, etc. I will readily admit that cell phone transmission strategies make more sense in dense urban environments; that's not who we're after. Most of North America does not have cell phone coverage; we cover those spaces, and provide an easy-to-install solution for those huge areas.
- "How is this different than OnStar or LoJack?": OnStar uses cell phone data. As far as I know, OnStar does not allow you to access maps or history of your vehicle's position, and it is a "poll" based system, meaning that there is no information of where your vehicle is until there is an event (crash/panic/call outbound) or a poll by the central office. LoJack simply is a theft recovery system that is available to _some_ police departments in _some_ states, and is completely unaccessible by the customer - they don't even tell you where it's installed. With either of these two systems, you have no idea where your vehicle is, or was, unless there is an extraordinary circumstance.
- "You can do this with APRS": Yep, you can, and I applaud anyone getting their license and spending the time to put a system together. Most companies, though, don't want to go through this exercise. Plus, then you'll also need a back-end system to store the points, a mapping server to map them on street and topological maps, redundant servers to catch failures, etc. etc. To duplicate everything we have put together is a large effort, but if all you want is a subset, then perhaps there are less expensive ways to do it, but what's your time worth? (PS: APRS and/or wardriving users can contact me about possible very-small-fee use of our reverse geocode XML interface that takes USA-based lat/lon and spits out addresses over an HTTP query - a pretty neat service that we developed which isn't available for a reasonable price anywhere else, at least that we were able to find.)
- "This won't prevent criminals from stealing/stripping my car": No, the system really isn't designed as a theft prevention or theft recovery system, and we'll never probably advertise it as such. The antenna is fairly obvious, and easily decommissioned. This is a vehicle tracking system, which as a side benefit could possibly be used as a theft recovery system. If you have a driver who decommissions the antenna, that is detectable by the lack of updates to the system, which can then trigger an alert to one or many users.
- "This is an invasion of privacy.": So don't buy it. If your employer wants to buy it and put it on their vehicle, that's their right. We at 10-20.com are pretty fanatical privacy advocates, but we also recognize that if someone is paying you for your time, and is paying for their vehicle, it's their right to monitor the use of those resources. If this is a parent/child relationship, that is something that has to be worked out between the parent and child, and is a discussion between them and does not involve us. Note that we have an interesting system called "Peek-Proof" that notifies the child (if it's configured properly) via email every time a parent views their location on the system. This permission level removes the uncertainty of how often someone is accessing your position, putting the discussion back at the political level instead of the technological level.
- "Proprietary systems are bad": We're looking at how to deliver exported data for those of you who want to build your own tools. We like our offered tools, but it's nice to be able to support queries from outside. We also allow for incorporation of your maps (if you toggle that option) into your own web pages, at different map sizes and zoom levels.
Thanks for all your comments. There have been a few ideas in the above items which have made me consider different options for our next revision of the software.
- John Todd, founder 10-20.com (jtodd@10-20.com)
I feel a commercial comming on (Score:2, Funny)
folding paper map of countryside - $2.75
Paying attention to driving and where the hell you are - PRICELESS
start-up? (Score:2)
Re:OK, but... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:hey! (Score:3, Funny)
Please please please don't mention the goatse.cx guy and "backing up" in the same post!
Where are my mod points when I need them? (Score:2)