Brain Surgery Robot Running Linux 361
hherb writes "Singapore has developed a robotic brain surgeon. The interesting bit: based on a Linux platform. Well, what else? Who in his right mind would like to have his brain fondled by a MS product?"
WooHoo (Score:3, Funny)
Re:WooHoo (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:WooHoo (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:WooHoo (Score:3)
Re:WooHoo (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:They may just find the codebase convenient to u (Score:2)
neither ms nor linux (Score:4, Insightful)
GF.
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:3, Interesting)
~S
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:4, Interesting)
Overall, I'd say this is one more example of better health care at higher prices - you pay for the brain surgeon AND the robot, but your surgery is more likely to be successful.
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:3, Interesting)
In case anything goes wrong a human surgeon is standing by.
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:2)
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:2)
~S
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:2)
Only at airports designed for it. All the electronics need to be in place on the ground to talk to the aircraft.
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:2)
Computers are perfect, within tolerances.
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:2)
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:5, Funny)
Re:neither ms nor linux (Score:2)
Look at the timestamp.
Yeah, but if it doesn't go well... (Score:5, Funny)
"Using Linux causes death!"
Re:Yeah, but if it doesn't go well... (Score:2)
It scares me to think that the "Its usually pretty quick, sometmes it can take an infinate ammount of time to complete an operation but it will finish" philosophy is being tried out in pace-makers.
Re:Yeah, but if it doesn't go well... (Score:2)
While this was modded funny, this is exactly what the M$ spin-doctors will say. They will do anything to inject fear, uncertainty, and doubt into the those people who don't know enough to argue one way or the other. There are literally millions of people who will see a sentence like that above and have a few neurons flicker to be more skeptical about non-Microsoft products--even when there is no logical basis to do so. The human brain is very sensitive to stuff like this...that's why Microsoft has been so frustratingly successful at sucking in the masses. Why win based on merit, when you can win by bait-n-switch, sleight-of-hand, and non-sequitor?
Money (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Money (Score:2)
These EULAs actualy give Linux a boost. Since the issue of liability is removed (there is not one to sue if said product fails due to EULAs) you might as well use the best tool for the job.
The big print givith, and the small print taketh away.
This actually has one good point . . . (Score:3, Interesting)
Though we joke about how lousy MS is (I know, I have to use it constantly), using an OS system for something this vital really should be the open option. Programmers need direct access to the code, and one wants to keep things updated as much as possible - which the OS community provides.
There's also been a breakthrough with an amazing robotic heart surgeon. (http://www.msnbc.com/news/837416.asp [msnbc.com]), and I expect more in the future.
Which brings up the point about what software and OSes such important devices will run . .
Re:This actually has one good point . . . (Score:2)
I've met very few programmers with any medical experience. Doubtlessly systems would do tests designed by actual surgeons.
But at least you can fix your own problems with OS, as opposed to waiting for Microsoft. In fact, it'd be likely a specific Medical Linux development community may develop.
Which is a whole other issue . .
Right mind (Score:2)
Baz
Dunno (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux != crashproof, as my recent www.linuxfromscratch.org efforts demonstrated.
Great to see Linux proliferating, sad to see it used for a completely gratuitous bashing.
Gives a whole new meaning... (Score:2)
OOPS is not something I want a brain surgeon or his computer to utter.
Re:Gives a whole new meaning... (Score:3, Funny)
Szo
Re:Gives a whole new meaning... (Score:2)
"Aarggh: attempting to free lock with active wait queue - shoot Andy"
Would his/her relatives shoot Andy?
Heh (Score:5, Informative)
That being said, it's still pretty impressive. And I thought dentists were bad enough...
Slightly off-topic (Score:5, Funny)
I left immediately.
Re:Slightly off-topic (Score:3, Insightful)
Placing my life (or my eyes) in someone elses hands...that's a different matter entirely. And to do so with the full knowledge they're using a MS product...well I don't have a deathwish yet
Re:Slightly off-topic (Score:2)
I personaly wouldn't trust any MS code either for critical application, its like buying a TV from a cheapo brand that keeps braking, you wont buy another things of that Brand again in the near future or would you ? MS was/is such a brand in my oppinion and still is, i am still using MS products in a daily basis and trust me even its new stuff is still crap (but thats my personal view).
The answer (Score:2)
Err.. the depressed and suicidal.
rm -rf / ? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:rm -rf / ? (Score:2)
sweet.. (Score:2, Funny)
"You're anurism operation was a complete success and while that was going on your surgeon discovered the RC5-72 key [distributed.net]!"
Right Mind (Score:5, Funny)
People generally have brain surgery because their mind is malfunctioning.
Re:Right Mind (Score:2, Informative)
No, psychiatrists are used when the mind is malfunctioning, but the brain itself may not require surgery. Brain surgeons are used when there is something wrong with the brain that can only be corrected by surgery, such as a tumor. A condition such as that may not necessarily cause a malfunction of the mind, it could be causing physical symptoms instead, such as headaches, paralysis, etc. So, it is possible to be in your right mind and still require brain surgery. In which case, I'd feel more comfortable with Linux. The question, of course, then becomes, "Which distribution do you trust most to drill into your skull?"
As an aside, Microsoft's motto for a similar product would probably be, "Where do you want to drill today?" :-)
Utility only (Score:3, Informative)
Looks like the "setup" program is written for some Linux distro , no actual surgery is done using a machine running Linux.
I would neither have Bill or Linus software poking around in my head, neither OS is deterministic or suited for an operation like that.
It is not Linux... (Score:4, Insightful)
From the article:
The speed and precision hinge on the software program written by researchers at NTU's department of mechanical and production engineering.
Er... (Score:2, Funny)
My PHB. It happened a long time ago...
Would Linus feel confident enough... (Score:4, Interesting)
Would any of you kernel hackers feel safe if your own code operated on your brain?
My favourite line from the story (Score:2)
I found someone.... (Score:2)
This person did, at least for a while [startrek.com]
Human trials (Score:5, Funny)
The team hopes to begin human trials by the middle of next year, following the completion of animal tests. Trials have been successfully conducted on cadavers.
"So far, no animals have volunteered, but since we're using Linux we expect lots of penguins to sign up." said Dr Yeo Tseng Tsai. In a subsequent interview RMS pointed out that if they had used the correct term GNU/Linux, they might have had more volunteers from the Gnu community. "I told you so. That's what happens when you leave out the GNU part.", explained RMS.
Re:Human trials (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Human trials (Score:2)
Love the sig (Score:2)
Unm (Score:5, Insightful)
Aren't there any OSes about at the moment that are like all redundant and correctness-proven and stuff, like with NASA-like failure margins? Wouldn't it be better to be using those instead?
Is this reasonable of me to say?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Unm (Score:2)
IIRC, Linux was used on some space shuttle. Does anyone remember that story?
Re: You confuse safety with uninterrupted operat'n (Score:4, Insightful)
Having said that, one might go a different route and produce all the software needed (including the driver itself) using formal methods, if you want 100.00% safety (minus epsilon for human errors in the formal requirement descriptions).
Re:Unm (Score:2)
Tell me... what sort of system is NOT capable of failing?
Answer: None. Your argument is pointless.
Re:Unm (Score:2)
This is a fairly common disclaimer:
There's a reason for this language... these systems (Aircraft control systems are the best example) are engineered on a totally different level; what we mean by "reliable" in this community is laughable in comparison.
Unfortunately, researchers without this background will be using Windows and Linux for these applications more and more, and will be inevitably surprised when they kill someone. Either that, or they decide it's a calculated risk.
*sigh*
Re:Unm (Score:3, Interesting)
The Linux kernel was almost definitely not inteded for use in brain surgery. Frankly, if I were contributing to the kernel I would be very disturbed by this. Beforehand, if there was a bug in the kernel, somebody's webserver might crash every few months or maybe some credit card numbers could be stolen, but now bugs could potentially lead to death. I don't think I could live with that. Software that's used in life and death situations requires an entirely more rigorous method of design, implementation, and testing than goes on with the Linux kernel and I don't think it would be very comforting to the kernel contributors to know that they are now dealing with life and death.
Regardless of whether or not Linux would work here, the mere fact that they chose an OS that was not meant for a task like this would make me not trust the rest of their program. Apparently, there isn't a very wide understanding that things like this need to be designed differently. That's scary.
PS - I am in no way bashing Linux - I still recommend it for nearly all situtations that aren't life and death. Follow the link in my sig if you don't believe me.
Re:Unm (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, right! If it was done by NASA [slashdot.org], the operator would tell it to drill 2 millimeters and it would go 2 inches instead!
OOOPPPS! He wasn't using that side of his brain anyways... He won't notice.
Funny thing is .. (Score:5, Insightful)
Pissant Microsofties ignoring context (Score:2)
As do I, and for good reason.
When Microsoft stops trying to take away people's choice as to whether to use their shoddy products, GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, or anything else. Thus far their track record has been to denigrate and lie about Linux and its capabilities, to call it Unamerican to share software freely, to engage in virtually every illegal anticompetative practice known to man to keep it from being preinstalled on hardware for those who wish to purchase it, and now, finally, to leverage their desktop monopoly and the clout it grants them into redesigning the hardware BIOS (c.f trusted computing and Palladium) as a prelude to making it impossible, and under the DMCA possibly illegal, to run any non-Microsoft product on an amd/intel platform, then perhaps I, and others who dislike them, will feel some inclination toward cutting them some slack. But not until then.
Add to that the well documented and appalling shoddiness of their products, which have left naval vessels dead in the water (literally, at sea), led to such a plethora of worms and viruses that the hysterical users of their shoddy products have taken to legislatively labelling computer system crackers as "terrorists", and the quip about not wanting a Microsoft product operating on one's brain is not only humorious, it is highly apropos. Ironically, on the mass level, Microsoft's product, and its astonishingly ineffectual security, has operated on most people's minds
Until Microsoft ceases and desists in such behavior (anti-competative, thuggish and dishonest practices
Interesting? (Score:2)
A robotic brain surgeon isn't interesting? How is the fact that it is based on a Linux platform more interesting than that? Personally, I would have thought it would run on a custom OS.
I see you are trying to perform brain surgery (Score:5, Funny)
* Saw the skull open?
* Find the front lobes?
* Adjust the frontal lobes so that Microsoft products seem to be a good idea?
Re:or how about Adventure...(corrected version) (Score:2, Funny)
-> Fix Brain
I don't know how to Fix Brain.
->Doh!
So when does this type of article become tired? (Score:2)
"act like you've been there"
Meaning, if you're a defensive end and just tackled the rb for no gain, don't break out into your "we just won the Superbowl" dance. You just did your job, be happy yes, but realize you've only really done what you were paid to do.
SO, when do articles like this start becoming meaningless. So SOMEcompany or SOMEperson SOMEwhere uses Linux to do SOMEthing. So what. If the DOD or Citibank chucks all their M$ stuff and goes Linux, hell yah, post that. But must we hear about every single little use (and this is a insignificant one at that). Just look at the "quality" of posts on this article, why, because there really isn't anything to say.
Who? (Score:3, Interesting)
Think of it this way:
If said robot surgeon screws up and renders me a veggie for the rest of my life, I'd rather have Microsoft with their untold billion$ behind it, due to the massive lawsuit I'd file.
With a Linux system, who would be responsible, the open source community, or the red-zone closed source firm that developed the software? Either way, I'm sure they wouldn't have the amount of cash that Microsoft has on hand to make me happy.
Granted, the ultimate goal is to -not- get my brain minced in the first place. That being said, this was an entirely uncalled for cheap shot at Microsoft. The fact is, Microsoft makes some perfectly reliable software, and developing for Windows does not automatically make one 'evil' or any other childish term thrown around here.
This type of behavior is all too comon here on Slashdot, and immature pot-shots like this are one of the many reasons that Linux acceptance is not as great as it could be.
Re:Who? (Score:2)
Interesting? (Score:2)
The small print (Score:2)
11 Because this operation is licensed free of charge, there is no warranty for the operation, to the extent permitted by applicable law. Except when otherwise stated in writing the copyright holders and/or other parties provide the operation "as is" without warranty of any kind, either expressed of implied, including, but not limited to, the implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. The entire risk as to the quality and performance of the operation is with you. Should the operation prove defective, you assume the cost of all necessary servicing, repair or correction.
12. In no event unless required by applicable law or agreed to in writing will any copyright holder, or any other party who may modify and/or dedistribute the operation as permitted above, be liable to you for damages, including any general, special, incidental or consequential damages arising out of the use of inability to use the operation (including but not limited to loss of data or data being rendered inaccurate or losses sustained by you or third parties or a failure of the operation to operate with any other operations), even if such holder of other party has been advised of hte possibilty of such damages.
END OF TERMS AND CONDITIONS
Ahhh but who can you sue when it goes wrong? (Score:2)
Apple's attempt at a brain surgery (Score:2, Funny)
What else? ... (Score:2, Redundant)
There are more than Linux and MS out there.... How about QNX for example?
Re:What else? ... (Score:3, Funny)
This scares me (Score:2)
This is a perfect example of the wrong tool being used for the wrong job. I'm going to assume that in surgical devices, high reliability is a Good Thing(TM), and I think that's a safe assumption. Linux is a best effort UNIX clone, Linux is not a high reliability or real time operating system.
Who wants to have the drill stuck in your head because the robot has a kernel panic, or even worse the drill bit just keeps on going through the skull and into your brain since the operating system thinks that doing some disk swapping is more important than letting the drill software run.
Misleading headline (Score:2)
Right. The normal case appears to be that people allow MS products to interact violently with their rectum, not their brains.
Then again, this could be symptomatic of something about that brain, couldn't it?
Asimov hits the mark again. (Score:2)
Full text at http://madogre.com/Interviews/Library/Bicentennia
Jabs like this are why Slashdot is miserable (Score:2)
I expect garbage like that to be expressed in comments, but could you please limit the article summaries to not have any kind of bashing or hyperbole? Is this really too much to ask?
I use both Windows and Linux. They both have their strengths and weaknesses (here's a hint: Windows doesn't just have to be used for games). The word Linux is in the mainstream now. Get over it. Accept this as another example of Linux entering the mainstream, be happy, and move on.
I can picture some of you 40 years from now, at age 73, roaming your local city parks muttering jokes like "My watch doesn't Blue-screen, I guess it's running Linux," to anyone who approaches you to ask you what time it is.
Sorry...have to say it.... (Score:2)
BA-DUM-CHA!
fondled (Score:2)
What are you talking about? We get our brains fondled all the time [pimientolinux.com] by Microsoft.
Windows A Better Choice Here (Score:2)
Think about it. The little robot arm would go to incise and it would get:
If it made the right decision, no problem. But if it does something like
I'm not sure they needed to re-invent the wheel here...
So what's the distro called... (Score:5, Funny)
Here is why this is NOT good (Score:5, Interesting)
I would only feel comfortable if I knew that the robot that's about to operate me, runs on an "made just for this task only" OS that is developed by a high-quality team of software architects and engineers. It would be much better if the software was Open Source and publically avaible, so it could be reviewed and searched for bugs by everyone who wants to.
Using a piece of software that was originally made to run on a desktop x86 PC (Linus Torvald's home machine) does not make much sense. Obviously Linux has grown a whole lot and it's useful for a LOT of things other than the desktop and server, but I don't think ANY "general use" OS should be doing the REAL mission critical tasks.
Re:Here is why this is NOT good (Score:2, Insightful)
If you don't want to, that's fine, but please preface comments with "I don't really know anything about this, but I thought I'd open my mouth anyway."
Wouldn't want it done with Linux either (Score:3, Informative)
One evening, for example, Linus is tired and doesnt merge a patch properly. No one notices this...until there's a surgical accident. The whole set-up is completely wrong.
who in his right mind (Score:2)
Right mind?? (Score:2)
Mongo like Microsoft
The ULTIMATE test! (Score:2)
See if he trusts a robot running his own OS, that should be the nail in the coffin I would think.
(errmmm not literally... I wish no actual HARM to Mr. Gates, he's kinda cute and cuddley anyways)
Rooted? (Score:2)
The interesting bit? (Score:3, Insightful)
But when someone goes and builds a robot that performs brain surgery (or even, as in this case, parts of brain surgery), how on earth is "The Interesting Part" that it runs Linux?! I, personally, would suppose that the interesting part is that it Does Brain Surgery.
"Hey, I just designed a program that can perfectly predict storm patterns across north america a year in advance!"
"Yeah, well, if it runs on Microsoft, go tell someone who cares."
-d
Good grief... (Score:3, Funny)
100% Failure Rate (Score:2)
Unfortunately, none of the human patients survived the procedure.
Right Mind? (Score:3, Funny)
Well, if you're in your right mind, you probably don't need brain surgery!
But does it go 'ping'? (Score:2)
Windows in critical systems (Score:2)
Friends don't let friends have their eyeballs vapourised by lasers driven by Windows 95...
new Linux feature: skewed perspective (Score:2, Insightful)
Error (Score:2)
Wouldn't encoding it into the firmware be better? (Score:2)
I mean, ROM instructions are pretty much ready to go once you flick the switch. it takes a bit of time to load an OS. In the operating room, seconds can be critical.
Re:Aghr! (Score:2, Funny)
Daniel
Re:This article shoudl be trolled (Score:2)
Using embedded linux allows them to jumpstart with a stable platform, strip out every piece they don't understand or feel isn't ptoperly tested, and save a thousandfold with development, debugging, and upgrading.
"Burned in hardware" doesn't mean stable. "Running in software" doesn't mean not realtime.
Re:This article shoudl be trolled (Score:2)
Aye, I would rather have 'well-written, tested and peer-reviewed software' such as z/os, windriver vx, qnx, and so on.
What I DON'T want is a brain surgery robot that suddenly starts yelling 'Hacked by chinese! Hackers LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE noodlez!'
Re:not Linux (Score:2)
The big embedded OS's are VxWorks, QNX, OSE, Nucleus, linux, among others.
And the embedded processor will likely be a PowerPC, Intel, or Motorola chip.
Again no guru here but your assumptions don't seem on. (Then again mine may also be be)