Novell to Make Linux Robust and Reliable 380
An anonymous coward writes: "It seems the folks over at Novell have the answer to making the "immature" Linux OS more "robust, reliable and scaleable" according to this Computer Weekly article. We have a lot more problems to use and keep running our NetWare 5 and 6 servers at our University than we've ever had with any of our Linux servers. I can't wait for Novell to help us out here."
Overstated but could be beneficial to Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
robust, reliable and scalable. We think we can bring that to the
Linux kernel."
I guess IBM, HP and the like are peanuts compared to Novell.
While his comments are certainly brash, and probably overly
self-important, Netware really did make a good system.
Ultimately they just got crushed under the Microsoft marketing
machine. I've run both Microsoft and Novell networks and I
definitely thought Netware was by far the superior product. As
we've consistently seen in the IT world though, a good product
isn't the only thing you need.
In a sense he has a point about Linux being an immature
operating system, although that point seems a bit overstated.
Personally though, I'd love to see Novell contributing to Linux.
The beauty of Open Source and in this case the GPL, is that
Novell can contribute to the development of Linux, but they
can't hijack it. Having more good companies contribute to
making it reliable and scalable is a good thing. I can't see a
downside to having them make contributions to the project.
Ultimately the point is that Linux is catching on. Even
companies like Sun and Novell that have their own operating
systems are seeing the value and are beginning to support it.
With broad industry support, Linux could supplant Microsoft as
the dominant OS.
Re:Overstated but could be beneficial to Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that if you look at the 2.5 kernel from a OS theory standpoint, you see the most mature OS available. The scheduling improvements alone are really quite amazing, and IMO will catapult Linux far ahead of the competition.
Re:Overstated but could be beneficial to Linux (Score:2, Insightful)
Let me guess, you've never used anything but Linux and Windows...
Other OSes available today smoother than Linux: FreeBSD!!!, Solaris, Tru64, OpenVMS, pretty much any commercial Unix today is far better than Linux in many ways. Granted, they all have their own flaws (excluding FreeBSD) but Linux couldn't hope to replace any one of them.
Re:Overstated but could be beneficial to Linux (Score:3, Insightful)
However, you are grossly underestimating Linux. Linux is certainly quite capable of replacing Solaris in many deployments and has been so capable for some years now. Immaturity of Intel hardware is far more likely to be a probem than the 'immaturity' Linux.
Yeah, I guess it's better... (Score:5, Insightful)
Forget having modern extensions and X11R6 applications. You can't have them.
And color terminals? Add them yourself! And forget about user support! You'll pay them good money if you want support!
What about advancing the gnu tools to the current level? You want recursive grepping? Color "ls"? Tar support for bzip2 and gzip? These are only the common ones that I've noticed are subpar compared to linux - I'm sure there are many others that I don't use. Wait until the next version of Solaris and maybe it'll get added.
The hardware will be great, though - for only ten times what you pay for commodity hardware you get reliability (just ignore the fact that if you buy quality hardware for PCs that cost about twice that amount you'll get the same level of quality).
I've yet to see that Solaris is elegant. It works, but it sure ain't pretty - not even compared to Linux. What they offer is reliability that comes from good hardware.
And don't give me any stuff about not rebooting for 4 years - you can do the same with flavors of Linux designed for that. There's more to it than software stability now.
Re:Yeah, I guess it's better... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Overstated but could be beneficial to Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
Or did we all just hallucinate EVMS, the port of jfs, and the work IBM have done to help better SMP scalability on large systems? Sheesh.
There are VERY few "enterprise features" that commercial UNIX's have which linux doesn't, by now. Massive SSI multiprocessor scalability still isn't competitive with Irix or Solaris. AFAIK, there is still no support for hot-swapping memory in linux, even on hardware that supports that featre. But apart from that, I really can't think of much in the OS itself. Maturity of _documentation_ on the other hand is an area where some catching up is needed.
An operating system != operating system (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of what Novell does is rather mature on that level. Much more so then Linux, but probably not as much as he thinks. It has great directory, authentication and network file systems. A good AFS, LDAP, Kerberos run Linux domain is perhaps less of a polished product then Novell, but it is not far behind.
But thats only a part of what a NOS does. Consider Groupwise, ZenWorks and other products inherent to a Novell network and you'll quickly realize that there is nothing near as mature on Linux right now. (note: Ximian just recently put out Enterprise Red Carpet, which I haven't evaluated.)
So while I may agree that I wouldn't have chosen his terms, its still important to understand his use of them before critisizing them
Re:An operating system != operating system (Score:2, Insightful)
"Less polished" has to be the understatment of the year. A bunch of tarballs and FAQs/HOWTOs floating around the internet isn't even in the dimension as Novell or MS's directory services stuff.
In a lot of ways, Linus isn't really a NOS (in the 80s sense) -- it's more Internet server platform. Or at least that's how it's packaged and marketed -- the closest thing to NOS features out-of-bo
Re:An operating system != operating system (Score:2)
Not so true. LDAP provides much of the directory services for ADS, NDS and it can for Linux through nsswitch-ldap, and pam-ldap. All of those either come with the major distros. Its much improved over NIS.
Re:An operating system != operating system (Score:5, Informative)
Comparing OpenLDAP to NDS/eDirectory is wrong. OpenLDAP is there, yes... but pales in comparison with eDirectory/NDS.
Novell was already delivering a very mature and advanced directory services (NDS) when Linux's OpenLDAP was very beta and Microsoft Directory was... well, vastly improvable
Linux *now* is pretty good. But Novell already was much better some years ago.
If Novell puts its knowledge into GNU/Linux so we all profit (Novell grows, Linux gets waaaaaaaaay better, Novell admin tools become GPL and we all improve them) then we all win, and win big.
P.S.: I'm a former Novell Admin, turned into Linux Admin as Microsoft Marketing Division pushed away Novell. I'd love to work with GNU/Linux/Novell systems
I'm excited!
Re:An operating system != operating system (Score:4, Insightful)
GNU/Linux ships OpenLDAP, an open implementation of the LDAP protocol implementation. It's still very rough, though.
On the other hand, Novell ships eDirectory, which is a much improved, time-tested implementation of LDAP protocol.
Believe it or not, NDS/eDirectory is much better than OpenLDAP. Work with both, for at least a year, with scores of hundreds of users... and then, you tell me.
As for what can Novell bring to GNU/Linux... well, IBM has helped improve GNU/Linux. Sun has helped improve GNU/Linux. Oracle has helped improve GNU/Linux. HP has helped improve GNU/Linux. SGI has helped improve GNU/Linux...
We cannot know for sure, that's right. But a reasonable assumption, with the knowledge in hand of what has already happened, there's a good chance that GNU/Linux will benefit from Novell.
Why some people are affraid of companies investing in Linux?
Re:An operating system != operating system (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but Linux isn't even in the same league when it comes to network services. NetWare has its warts, but so far as NOS capabilities they are in a class of one. (Although Banyan was interesting, are they still around?)
The fine granularity of file permissions in NetWare is an absolute dream, and matches and supports real-world needs *far* better than those of Windows, or especially Unix-derived servers. (I've been dealing with the brain-dead Unix file permissions for 18 years now, and the whole system is a major dog's breakfast.)
ACLs have been grafted onto various network filesystems in myriad incompatible, incomprehensible, and unmanageable ways, but that's really no substitute for a just having a reasonable set of permissions capabilities in the first place.
Further, NDS is far and away the best directory service available today - it's really a shame it hasn't taken hold in the Unix/Linux world, as we need it badly if there is ever to be any hope of holding AD at bay. (Those that don't do serious enterprise work fail to comprehend that it's AD that makes it virtually impossible to pull Windows out of an organization - this is the *real* Kool-Aid, and if your organization has drunk a long draft of it, you're poisoned, bucko... Raw LDAP is not really an option in most environments, as the staffing required to manage it that way exceeds the available talented labor pool in most places...)
You're right that all the apps built on these network services have no real equivalent at all in the Unix/Linux world, and only shabby imitators in the Windows world, but even at the server-only level, NetWare in unequalled. I hate the way you administer it, (it's intentionally obtuse to encourage CNE certification), and it has some weaknesses as an application server, but it works and works well.
It's well-engineered, too: As a protocol jock, I say that with real knowledge - compare the rock-solid reliability, wide area bandwidth efficiency, and latency insensitivity, not to mention advanced features and security of NCP to *anything* else, and I think it will come out *way* ahead. I've built worldwide remote site networks that have to have transparent file access back to civilization via a satellite telephone, (the worst latency environment within three planetary diameters) and only NetWare and NCP are capable of operating in such an environment. Nothing else is - not NFS, not SMB, not whatever, just NCP.
Gee, this sounds like a Novell ad - It's not, I haven't even touched the product in two years, but what they do, they do well.
Re:An operating system != operating system (Score:2)
I've built worldwide remote site networks that have to have transparent file access back to civilization via a satellite telephone, (the worst latency environment within three planetary diameters)
err, wouldn't a message in a bottle have worse latency?
Re:An operating system != operating system (Score:3, Informative)
No, long gone.
Microsoft purchased part of them in around 1998 or so, and from then onwards Banyan tried to migrate their customers over to pure NT networks, ostensibly going via their StreetTalk for NT product.
At that stage, though, Banyan's market share was falling dramatically, and some nasty bugs (particularly long-filename support with European codepages) and reluctance to support some client OSs didn't help either.
Re:An operating system != operating system (Score:2)
Pot, Kettle.
Re:Overstated but could be beneficial to Linux (Score:2)
Re:Overstated but could be beneficial to Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
I got Novell certification so I do speak from experience even though it not never my primary product that I supported.
Netware was incredibly stable but when it came to setup and configuration it was overly complicated. Windows took over the market not because it was a better product, but because it was more accessible. They concentrated too much on things people, who were casually trying to get involved with it, did not want to learn. MS basically proved that you don't need to be a genuis to set-up file and print sharing which is what Netware was geared for.
In many area's they were ahead of their time(Directory Services in 1994 is a great example), but if they had paid a little more attention to how people would like to work with computers instead of making it act like a mainframe they would not have been whipped so thoroughly in the market.
Novell had a lot of things going for it (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree, but realize Novell had a lot of things going for it:
Re:Novell had a lot of things going for it (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't be stupid. Server operating systems and desktop operating systems are similar. The fundamentals are the same. The differences are in the fine tuning.
Debian produce probably the most stable (in all senses) Linux distribution. They don't have a Serv
Re:Novell had a lot of things going for it (Score:5, Informative)
Oh for chrissakes...no, it's not just marketing. For example, system updates are released entirely separately for OS X client and server- and often contain drastically different updates. The server updates come almost always after the client updates, and rarely have I heard of the server updates causing nearly as many problems as the client side updates.
Don't be stupid. Server operating systems and desktop operating systems are similar. The fundamentals are the same. The differences are in the fine tuning.
...and believe it or not, that "fine tuning" is a little more complex than "picking which set of packages to install" and "how we market it". Novell is, in fact, the perfect example of the power of a ground-up, purpose-built server platform. Linux's weakness is that it has NO equivalent; your precious Debian has no core, ground-up focus on being a server distro and ONLY a server distro.
Case and point- there simply isn't a way to use Novell as a desktop operating system(at least, it's not as easy on any other OS). It is ONLY for serving, and as a result, has a clear path in all regards, from development, to QA, to marketing. Do one thing, do it well.
Re:Novell had a lot of things going for it (Score:2)
Re:Overstated but could be beneficial to Linux (Score:4, Informative)
Bruce
Re:Overstated but could be beneficial to Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
Kernels - Windows, Unix, Linux and NetWare - may have become commoditised, said Messman, but services were the key to the future. "Linux doesn't have the services and support that we can bring to the table," he said.
Novell has a Directory Services that is far more mature and superior to its competitors, and NDS is integrated very nicely with LDAP. 'eDirectory' on Linux has been a reality for some time now. Novell has been shifting toward Java and open standards since the time that Eric Schmidt took over. Their latest push seems to be toward web services; In NetWare 6 the servers and services can be almost competely managed through a browser and they purchased a minor but highly regarded J2EE application server, Silverstream [silverstream.com]. Linux was never designed to be a fileserver and doesn't even have ACL's yet in the filesystem, something that MS had from the start in NT 3.1. But even NT's file rights assignment is laughable compared to the fine grained control that exists in NetWare. Similarly, SMB is not at the same level that NCP is.
Novell is now aiming to help put Linux on the desktop. Just today they announced a Groupwise client for Linux [novell.com] which was a big roadblock for companies who want to migrate from Windows to a more secure, stable, and economical alternative. I think if Novell wants to bring their technologies to the Linux platform (and vice versa [novell.com]) then it will strengthen both. That's synergy.
With broad industry support, Linux could supplant Microsoft as the dominant OS.
'Will' not 'could'. It is already beginning.
Banyan (Score:5, Funny)
Sad thing is, I made the mistake of putting Banyan on my resume, and now I actually get calls for it:
Recruiter: "Says here you're an experienced Banyan admin..."
Me: "Yup."
Recruiter: "So do you work with Banyan full-time?"
Me: "No. Mostly I point at it and laugh."
Recruiter: "So you aren't interested in the only Baynan job I've run across in 10 years of recruiting? Pay is... uh, you'd get paid!"
Me: "Not unless I get paid to point and laugh."
Recruiter: "So what is Banyan, anyway?"
I took it off after about the fourth call I got like that, but I still get some desperate bastard calling me about every three months.
Re:Overstated but could be beneficial to Linux (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps not the only, but a major reason. The SMB protocol was originally written so linux machines could talk to DEC machines. Later MS embraced and extended the protocol and that spurred samba into becomming what it is today. How come samba (or what it was called back then) or DEC didn't instantly become heavy hi
Novel? (Score:2)
Re:Novel? (Score:2)
Actually, they sold it to SCO in 1995 [caldera.com] :-)
Re:I smell a possible lawsuit (Score:2)
SCO: Novell once owned Unix and then improved Linux to be like Unix. Gee, your honor how did Novell figure out how to do that..( wink) (wink).
no surprise here (Score:4, Insightful)
In other words...."we want to slap our brand name all over it." Last time I checked, Novell was already pretty much in a niche, so this is probably their attempt at jumping on a bandwagon.
Re:no surprise here (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:no surprise here (Score:2)
By clinging to linux (or making it "more mature" as their CEO put it), they can branch into all the other lucrative markets that linux is already accepted in (especially the server market).
Besides, GNU/Linux have been around since 1991, so I don't give the "mature" comment much credibility to begin with.
Re:no surprise here (Score:2, Flamebait)
You may not, but those of us that have worked with real, mature systems do. Linux is great for some things, but the charge of immaturity, even after 12 years is easily supportable: This is in no way intended to start a flame war, but that level of immaturity is a huge reason that people who know enough to know the difference prefer BSD for their open source servers. Linux is still remarka
Re:no surprise here (Score:3, Insightful)
However, the competent administrator revels in being able to tame linux into being the unseen force that makes the network environment "richer". You just have to know what you're doing... the same with all things.
I guess my point is: Netware is deep and robust by design, while Linux needs someone to make sure it so. I am comfor
Translation (Score:4, Interesting)
A few years ago I had the priviledge of administrating a Netware 3.1 server, that eventually logged 2.5 years of continuous uptime. It eventually had to be rebooted to apply a y2k patch. Now our Netware IMAP server crashes several times per day. It used to be that Netware was the only way to go if you were serious about file serving, but it seems like Novell has failed to keep up.
Re:Translation (Score:5, Funny)
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010409S0
Novell Server that ran for 4 years and was blocked in behind a wall...
Re:Translation (Score:5, Funny)
It used to be that Netware was the only way to go if you were serious about file serving, but it seems like Novell has failed to keep up.
They went from software that logged 2.5 years of uptime to software that crashes several times a day and you say they've failed to keep up? I think you're out of touch with the marketplace!
Re:Translation (Score:2)
Here at work we are actually using AFS instead of the Novell file system serving. Much of the same features, and IBM/Open Source give me as an admin more warm fuzzies for some of reasons you mentioned.
revenge :P (Score:2)
Re:Translation (Score:3, Insightful)
Well as the head web-techie-dude I decided to take matters into my own hands and installed our lone, unused copy of NT4 server*
They misread the quote (Score:5, Funny)
Novell actually said they'd make Linux "go bust, disabled and scaley".
And then there's SCO and Caldera (Score:3, Funny)
So who is doing the suing, who is doing the developing? Is Novell now going to help the enemy of their friend, or the friend of their enemy, I am confused.
And what happened to that guy, Ray Noorda was it? who used to own pieces of some of them, and was suing Microsoft for discri
HP-UX and others. (Score:5, Interesting)
On the other hand, we have a number of other operating systems around here, like Linux, various BSD flavors, HP-UX and others. And you know what? They all work really well. Heck, even the two odd Windows 3.1 boxes around here work well! (We have never put a computer out of commission here.)
I think that Novell is FINALLY realizing that their products are not in demand like they used to be, what with that newfangled Linux thing floating around, so they decided, ten years too late, to jump on the cottonpickin' bandwagon!
This, I will never understand. It must have been a bunch of dumb-ass business people sitting around a table trying to figure out something "new and exciting" to motivate their employees and to get some buzz going on in the market. Only nobody is interested in buzz anymore. Heck, the scene must have looked like that one in Swordfish where they're all sitting around a table trying to figure out something "new and exciting" and a bus comes crashing through the window on their 20th floor conference room... only without the bus and the crashing and stuff.
Re:HP-UX and others. (Score:2)
Then you have never known the simple joy of smacking one of those fuckers with a 10 pound sledge, or the ecstasy of emptying a magazine of .50AE into one of them.
Give me Novell over Linux anyday (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Give me Novell over Linux anyday (Score:2)
Experience (Score:5, Insightful)
Now this is just ridiculous! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Now this is just ridiculous! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Now this is just ridiculous! (Score:2)
Chrisd
Ladies and gentlemen of Novell... (Score:5, Funny)
LDAP Support (Score:5, Insightful)
NDS eDirectory, being a massive LDAP system, already runs on linux. Actually, you can authenticate Winblows users using the Novell client to a linux server running eDirectory. The big thing I can see them adding though would be share access with ACL support on the linux box, along with some of the SSL and PAM options.
Novell has always had some of the best software for file sharing with regards to reliability and ease of administration. Linux has samba and NFS, but not a really good Windows authentication and file sharing service that's easily configured and run from a windows station. i.e. the ConsoleOne config tool, and the Novell client, which can replace the built-in windows authentication schemes. It would be really really nice if the server aspect could be run off of a Linux system instead of Novell's server OS.
Please. (Score:3, Insightful)
Novell can try. Their systems aren't bad, but they horriblely overpriced. Maybe their MetaDirectory is worth it if you need it, but the core eDirectory I suspect can be skipped by lots of shops very easily.
I had the priviledge to work on an LDAP based authentication system for 2 years. Most packages in this area use exactly 2 well documented microsoft API to sync or authenticate windo
Re: (Score:2)
Work on desktop usability instead (Score:4, Insightful)
I still use linux on my servers, but that's why I switched back to windows after having linux on my desktop for over 2 years. I can install something in 10 minutes and then be enjoying using it for the next few day. The one time I couldn't get a piece of hardware to work in windows, I just had to call up the hardware vendor and they solved the problem in under an hour. If I were trying to get it to work in Linux, there's nobody to call.
Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
Re:Work on desktop usability instead (Score:2)
I have an old SoundBlaster/Ensonic sound card, a N2000 compatible network card, Martox 400 (Dual head) that all require driver donloads for Windows XP but in Mandrak - they all worked right away.
So yes, manufacurers do suport Windows more, but out of the box, a good Linux distribution just works better.
(This is ingnoring the fact
Re:Work on desktop usability instead (Score:2)
Secondly, assuming a driver was written, there is no reason that I can think of that the driver module couldn't just be put into an rpm and urpmi'ed.
I have no idea if mandrake does this, but if it was important hardware, they would probably do this for you if you asked and were a member.
Re:Work on desktop usability instead (Score:2)
I typically spend much less than 10 minutes installing each new package on Linux - one minute is more like it, using Debian apt-get.
Re:Work on desktop usability instead (Score:3, Interesting)
KDE is quite equal to Windows/Macos. The installers are up to par as well.
What Linux's core market is is in the server room. WIthout a directory service it can not totally replace Windows. With Windows in the picture its more tempting for IT managers to standardize on Microsoft.
Novell is great to administer and does things that Unix/linux can not do.
Its not an apps server but really a network service provider.
Linux is missing directory services, enterprise journaling( not the ext3 hack), adm
Re:Work on desktop usability instead (Score:2)
Re:Work on desktop usability instead (Score:2, Interesting)
This downloads the software, all its dependencies etc., installs it and is all done in seconds (without subjecting me to any "wizards")
I'm not wild about RPM, but I certainly think apt is far superior to anything Windows has.
RedHat's "printtool" makes it easy to install printers too. (Its GPLed of course, so its available on most distros)
When it comes to getting pictures from my digicam, and samba, however,
Hey! More great news! (Score:2)
I hear that Microsoft will be helping out to improve the open source nature of Linux, and Sun will be working hard to make sure it works perfectly on x86 systems!
Surely good days lie ahead of us with this collection of hardworking, selfless, and competent companies backing us up!
I remember Novell... (Score:4, Funny)
Who? (Score:2, Funny)
Can't hurt (Score:2)
Buzzwords (Score:3, Insightful)
A. Using buzzwords like "robust" "reliable" and "scalable" - the things Novell customers are concerned about,
B. Using the hottest buzzword in computers today "Linux" - The platform Novell probably the most worried about losing it's customers to.
Methinks Novell's focus is trying to keep it's customer base, not linux philanthropy.
Nikkos
Re:Buzzwords (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know if this is necessarily the case. I've been working on developing a solution for a problem that I've been having - distributed logons - with Linux, and have so far come away delightfully unimpressed.
First, we installed Samba, and got that working as a PDC with our W2K machines. Then, we got it working together with roaming profiles. Ok, fine, but then we went to Samba-TNG so we could use an LDAP directory backend. That'd be great, if there were any decent LDAP HOWTOs for Linux. The ones that there are are horrid, and you have to assemble them all in your head to make any sense of it. Once that was done (with the poor LDAP browsers available), we tried to move other services to it, which is a nightmare. Most of the LDAP-authenticating software we have (proftpd-ldap, etc.) just plain breaks, or doesn't work, or 'works' but doesn't (fails silently), or a myriad of other things. Figuring out how to do any of this stuff in the first place was a nightmare, and then trying to figure out what's wrong without having to source-dive is just a waste of my time. Once I finally got PAM working with LDAP, we have the problem of it asks for passwords twice, instead of automatically falling back. PITA. Then, if we wanted other systems to authenticate, we'd have a whole new bag of worms.
People say Novell is a bitch to configure. They say it's hard to learn. Yeah, but you know what? There's ways to learn. There's documentation. There's manuals. There's courses. There's books. When it comes down to it, there's $150/hr freelance CNEs or the consultants that installed your network in the first place. When customers move to Linux and try to do anything that's great about Linux (i.e. assembling their own solution) they quickly find that it may be cheaper, and it may give you more of a sense of satisfaction, but when you have to manage an entire corporate network, you don't have time to migrate everyone to Linux just because 'it's cheaper'. It's not. For the price of my time as a Linux admin, setting all this up, testing it, re-testing it, making damn sure it's not going to blow up in my face, I would suggest a Novell solution, because I know that if I set it up properly, it's going to freaking work, and if it doesn't, I don't have to worry about my boss bringing the hounds of hell down on me, because there's a support contract.
Linux is only a challenger in small business, and Novell's offering their small business starter pack for free [novell.com] (contact your local CNS for details). Larger business will go for solutions that they don't have to worry about. You pay for some staff to get their certification, keep them up to date, and that's it. With Linux, you only have their word that they know what they're doing, and when things explode or you have to find someone else, they have to figure out what's going on, and when the system's a melange of PHP sites calling perl scripts to manage LDAP databases of user data for the patched daemons running on colocated servers, better men than I have threw in the towel on the first day. Businesses are finding this important point out: anyone can learn 'Linux' - you can train a kitten to play with the keyboard and administer a Linux system - but when it comes down to the crunch and you need to build your own system, unless you keep excellent, centralized, readable, updated documentation, you can't just hire some Linux admin off the street - you need the guy that worked there before, and hopefully he left on good terms.
Microsoft and Novell are not out there because they're corporate whores. They're not popular because they lock people in. They're not even popular because managers have heard of them. They're popular because if I'm Novell certified in the relevant products, I can walk into any Novell business and sit down and administer the network. It's consistant. It's coherant. It's easier to just get to work, because if you know it you know it. Until Linux gets this, it won't be popular.
--Dan
Hey wait a second (Score:5, Funny)
It seems the folks over at Novell have the answer to making the "immature" Linux OS more "robust, reliable and scaleable"
I thought IBM had already made linux more robust, reliable and scaleable, by stealing code from SCO.
Woah! (Score:2)
Okay guys, let me get this straight...
Novell is still around!?
And they want to "help" us with Linux!?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I thought they were deader than SCO.
SCO and Novell dropped off my radar at around the same time about 10 years ago.
I must say, I'm blown away...
Oh, just for fun, let's take a look at their stock prices:
NOVL [yahoo.com]: $2.40
SCOC [yahoo.com]: No such ticker symbol. D'OH! That's gotta hurt.
More lies! (Score:5, Funny)
Tempest in a teapot (Score:5, Informative)
I've almost got to believe that Jack Messman was trying to make some kind of joke about the SCO/IBM lawsuit in this comment, and has just been horribly mis-understood.
Re:Tempest in a teapot (Score:2)
I think Bruce's comment is funny: Oops, that was a faux pas, never fear boys, I'll set them straight-- and then he does! It's like Bruce is this little angel sitting on the suit's shoulders reminding them to play nice or the linux zealots will skin them alive.
What's most interesting is that Bruce calls it a faux pas. Is that because the linux user base would be offended? Surely he's not protecting Linus' or Alan's fragile egos. Is it written somewhere in the OpenSource definition tha
Novell's mistake: speed over safety (Score:5, Interesting)
Part of this speed came from having a very simple, unprotected operating system. Any process on the server could bring down the entire server. Novell's code was very well debugged and very stable.
And then networking started to mean something other than just filesharing. People started developing client/server applications to run on servers.
The company I worked for developed
NLMs (netware loadable modules) back in the day. It was a pain in the ass. Our code had to be flawless, because a single mistake would "abend" the server, taking down not only our services, but the lan filesharing, and everyone else's services too.
Mind you, we tested our code, we did everything we could to make it flawless, but that's a difficult standard to obtain in a complex piece of code.
Novell eventually tacked on some memory protection to the OS, allowing some NLMs to run at ring 1. But it seemed like too little too late.
Developers were realizing that it was a lot easier to develop and deploy server code on protected operating systems (Unix and Windows), and the speed bonus that Novell got by writing a down and dirty operating system was becoming less critical as machines got faster.
The same thing will happen with Palm OS vs Windows CE and Linux for the handhelds. The miserly memory handling and power consumption features of Palm OS will not be needed in future devices, and modern operating system features will win out.
Re:Novell's mistake: speed over safety (Score:2)
Re:Novell's mistake: speed over safety (Score:2)
and now SCO is hocking Linux as their new product, too!
How long? (Score:2)
It sounds to me... (Score:2)
Not the Message at BrainShare (Score:5, Interesting)
The actual product roadmap came from Chris Stone, the vice chairman. Unlike the arrogant comments by Messman in the linked article, Stone seemed much more humble. He talked about the various Open Source technologies shipping with the next version of NetWare (6.5), including MySQL, Tomcat 4, Apache 2, and PHP 4. Finally, he announced that Netware 7 would run either the Netware kernel or the Linux kernel. He made it clear, however, that Linux was the ultimate destination. There wasn't any dismissal of Linux, especially since they expect to base all of their products on top of it.
Does Novell have anything to contribute?
Well, they claim that they've contributed back many improvements to PHP, Apache, and MySQL. Some, they said, were still forthcoming but that they would be available to the larger community.
As far as their products go, they still make a surprisingly large number of good ones. Many of the services that do run on Netware, including iPrint, iFolder, NetStorage, etc. would be a welcome addition to any operating system. eDirectory's already available cross platform, so nothing is new is gained there. Provisioning and user account management with Netware/eDirectory is still superior to many alternatives and makes administering a large number of users very easy (especially for support folks).
So, I think Jack Messman's comments are regrettable, but I don't really care what he thinks. I'm here at BrainShare to speak with the developers of the products we use and they, almost universially, get it. In nearly every session I've attended, they've highlighted solutions available from Freshmeat, SourceForge, CPAN, and others. I think it's especially helpful since most of the attendees here are not Slashdot readers. They're old school Novell admins working in a range of industries, from very large corporations to small business consultants. Despite the bravado from some CEO, Novell's participation should be welcomed and encouraged. After all, if they're contributing something useful, why not?
Re:Not the Message at BrainShare (Score:4, Interesting)
I think you hit the nail on the head. Novell is giving NetWare a future using Linux, not giving Linux a future using NetWare.
Along the way, they will probably contribute some useful code and leverage towards Linux adoption in the mainstream. So yes, it sounds like a win/win for both sides assuming Novell commits actual resources to the issue and it isn't just a press release. As I said in a different post, this will be the 2nd time Novell has announced the porting of all of NetWare's services to *nix, so we'll see.
Microsoft is already defeated! (Score:2)
Come to think of it, has anyone ever seen the CEO of Novell and the Iraqi Information Minister in the same room? Aha!
A view from inside (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked for Novell until about a year ago, and I have to agree with a previous poster who said that this strategy was all about customer retention. Show customers a direction towards Linux, a little bit of open source, and toss in some buzzwords and customers might keep their license agreement. It's a good strategy financially and not unlike what Microsoft has done in that arena.
Netware's list price is over $100 a seat. Even if MySQL, Apache, and anything else ported over worked perfectly, no one is going to buy a linux-based Netware as a linux replacement. eDirectory runs about $2 a seat list and has been running on Linux for a long time. The announcement of a free UDDI server is nice, but I don't see long term how Novell will get a piece of anything in the Web Services space with that. It's more of a developer tool, and Novell isn't a developer tools company, they make money selling to big corporations. Yes, they recently acquired an app-server company, but that's an ever worse competitive mess than the LAN arena.
I think Novell's main problem is too many products. There are still just as many products at Novell as there were two years ago, but there are probably half the engineering staff to maintain them. Products like iChain and DirXML are incomprehensible to most people, and too narrow in scope and low in sales when most of their competition are rolling their products up into big do-all authentication suites. Also, there haven't been installation or adminstration console standards at Novell for years and years, so getting two different products from different groups running is quite a challenge.
While I'm a little bitter over some of the specifics of my departure, I think overall Novell has good people and still has a large user base. It's hard to turn a big boat like Novell towards new technology when the old stuff is still raking in hundreds of millions of dollars. Hopefully this won't end up like the two previous major efforts towards *nix, the first being the purchase of AT&T Unix and the "SuperNOS" strategy and the second being a major alliance with Red Hat that never really went anywhere.
Good luck, guys!
And in related news... (Score:3, Funny)
Chevron is going to make gasoline inflammable
and
Debeers is going to make diamonds hard.
Pretty keen of Novell to jump in and "make" Linux what it already is.
Could Netware's kernel be replaced? (Score:2)
Linux would be great not to mention if Novell ports all of their software it would be doublepluss good in newspeak.
They might actually own the Linux market and could re-enter the application server market which they left. Novell only runs fileservers and NDS servers these days since it was too proprietary and unstable compared to Unix and WIndows.
Marketing (Score:2)
There already IS (Score:2)
No need to spend any $ at al....
Novell does build low maintenance servers (Score:2)
How robust is linux? (Score:4, Informative)
But anyone who has run a linux server as a true multiuser system (i.e. with other people users, who have standard userlike weaknesses) has discovered that the linux kernel isn't as robust as say the BSD kernel. It's easy to bring a linux system to its knees with malicious or even accidental user scripts that fork bomb etc.
Slightly different angle now, but check out this developer's response [spinics.net] to the latest ptrace vulnerability: "it's a local root hole, and there are still tons of those left out there to squash". And once those are squashed, there are lots of EZ denial of service glitches to correct too.
I would love to see the linux kernel made more robust, like the BSD kernel. Now, whether or not Novell are the people to do it, I don't know. Personally I think that linux is still better than any Microsoft or Novell "enterprise grade" solution.
I seriously doubt large companies have the ability, or the interest, in making any operating system truly robust. But "we" can do it I'm sure, because we know what we really want.
NDS (Score:5, Insightful)
Of all the network directory services, I FAR prefer dealing with Novell NDS than I do Active Directory (a poor MS clone of NDS hacked onto NT 4's way of doing things that debuted with Win 2K server). An open source implimentaion of NDS on Linux would make Linux THE file server of choice...
The underlying Netware OS is horribly obsolete, still a DOS relic of the 1980's, but Novell Directory Services is the REAL gem Novell has left.
NetWare migration path is to Linux (Score:4, Informative)
With Novell planning for NetWare 7 to be a set of services running on both the NetWare kernel and the Linux kernel...
And there you have it. NetWare is giving way to Linux. NetWare 7 will be the migration path to Lin. Will NetWare 8 simply be Novell's Linux distro? So what will those services that run on NW and Lin be? eDirectory, GroupWise, and ZENWorks mainly. Plus newer stuff like iChain, iFolder, Portal Services, DirXML, et. al.
This really isn't a huge surprise. NetWare 6 shipped with Apache/Tomcat and 6.5 will include MySQL. So Novell has been getting tighter with OSS for some time now. And then there is the sad story of SuperNOS from back in the day.
Even if none of you run any of this stuff, this still has to be considered a win for Linux and OSS.
Links of interest (Score:2, Informative)
Novell, even more irrelevant than Microsoft. (Score:3, Interesting)
They are simply, unnecessary, and have been for a good few years now. It'll take them a while to work through their financial reserves, but eventually they will wither and die like the dinosaurs they are.
Open source is like the asteroid which smashed into the earth destroying the ecosystem the dinosaurs needed to survive. It's literally pulling the financial flora out from underneath them. What will rise up in the aftermath? Mammals. Small, fast and flexible companies which can thrive on resources which wouldn't have fed a dinosaur for a day.
Just keep out of their way as they go through their death throes.
Well fuck you Slashdot. (Score:3, Informative)
This is the company that had Directory Services up and running before Microsoft got the idea to put the word Directory after Active.(and still haven't understood what it should to).
Also they have worked on integrating Linux and UNIX systems into their services, having them work together instead of trying to kill it.
And finally I'd say if you have trouble keeping a Netware server up and running, perhaps you should look at the skills of the people operating them. The same stupid comment goes for people changing to Microsoft from UNIX.
Re:Novell linux networks? (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux and Netware are totally two different markets. Linux/Unix can not handle roaming profiles, support for any directory service, and do not get me started on printer support, nor does it come with the great administration tools from Netware.
Netware is lightyears ahead of active directory and it can work under slow networks where active directory would choke. Many fortune500 companies still use Novell because their whole lan needs to be ripped out to handle ADS.
Netware really adds services to your network and is not an application server like Unix/Linux is designed to be.
W2k is now just catching up and is still behind in many area's. IT managers are switching to Microsoft only because its from Microsoft and for discounts for EULA's from other MS products.
Can you browse the network neighborhood on a Windows desktop, select a printer, and have the drivers automatically be downloaded and installed from a Unix/Linux server? How about printer administration? How about setting up a directory service so you can administer any desktop in the company?
I believe Novell is flirting with the idea of trashing their proprietary api's and kernels and replacing them with Linux or FreeBSD ones. Which would be good.
Lack of any directory service is whats keeping Linux out and Windows in.
Re:Novell linux networks? (Score:4, Insightful)
Printers - iPrint offers a browser as printer distribution mechanism. Go to a web page, click a link, get a printer (drivers and all). Novell even offer a handy (simple) mapping tool - drop in an image of yuor floorplan, locate the printers on that image, and your staff don't have to know (or understand) your naming convention.
Directory is really talking about ZENworks for Desktops. Once again, does anyone else offer browser integration for installing applications on the local workstation? Not to mention built-in inventory controls, licensing and SOE deployment.
In terms of reliability, I had some problems with NetWare 5.0, but I've used every version from 3 to 6 and found it one of the most stable.
Novell are not trading on their ability as a file serving platform - really, this can be resolved in about five minutes on their web site. All their new technologies are web-enabled... and speaking of file storage, iFolder is unmatched by anything by a major vendor on the market. Oh, and it runs (like eDirectory) on GNU/Linux as well as Solaris and Windows servers, as well as NetWare.
My environment is GNU/Linux and NetWare. Each have their uses, but Novell certainly are not standing still.
Re:Novell linux networks? (Score:2)
Maybe you're still using groups to manage application associations? That'll seriously slow down NAL initialization. The latest ZEN & client patches add streams caches that offer performance improvements as well.
Re:Novell linux networks? (Score:2)
Umm... I think IBM, transmeta, RedHat, Suse, and all those other companies that have full-time kernel hackers on their payroll would disagree with you. Almost all the "big name" kernel hackers are paid programmers.
PS. I'm not trying to belittle open source development achievements, just trying to insert a clue.
Re:Novell linux networks? (Score:2)
Sure, the community spirit is at the heart of Linux, and everyone seems to like and respect that. But to say that Linux got where it is today without
Re:Novell linux networks? (Score:2)
This is all just marketing BS hype. When they say how badly Linux needs Novell, they are, like another poster said, just trying to jump on a bandwagon.
Their words are for the bizness community, probably mostly for shareholders. They are trying to spin the line: "We are goin
Re:Ray Noorda=Novell=Caldera=SCO=Lineo (Score:2)
Re:MmmM IPX/SPX (Score:2)