Money Problems May Derail First U.S. MagLev Train 409
PSaltyDS writes "The Virginian Pilot is reporting on the trials and tribulations of what was supposed to be the first MagLev train in regular use in the U.S. The MagLev Project was to cover a portion of the Old Dominion University campus, and start service in 2002, but after $14 million spent, it has yet to carry a single passenger. In the article, several engineering types seem to say the same thing, something like 'A great idea that is just too hard to do without an unlimited budget.' Is a maglev train an impractical fantasy like the personal flying car?"
If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Funny)
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Informative)
You do realize the Japanese Economy has been in the crapper for about the last 10 years or so, right?
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Funny)
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:3, Interesting)
Growth in Germany has been lousy for the last few years but they are now the World's largest exporter. So some things are still going well over there.
As for their Maglev, the link to Berlin has been cancelled, but the technology was licensed to China. The Chinese have used it to create the new high speed link between Shanghai and its airport and are looking at the cons
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Funny)
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody!, and I mean nobody spends money like the Japanese. Primarily from aspects of their culture such as usually holding parties in restaurants rather than the home like western countries, the sheer number of occasions where gift giving is appropriate, and no less than a dozen major festivals held each year. Japanese economy problems are mainly stemming from corruption in the major banks that is still being cleaned up and an overly inflated cost of living that drives down tourism.
The reason why Japan is in the lead for a useful Maglev, is because they already have a society built around the reliable usage of trains. I've been to Tokyo at least 15 times and I couldn't even imagine trying to get around that city without trains. The same deal applies to cross country travel. The shinkansen (bullet train) is at least 5 times faster than driving a car and slightly cheaper than flying. Everybody uses them. In the US, I'd bet money that 9 out of 10 average Americans couldn't even guess at the cost of a train ride from New York to D.C. The reason why is because most Americans first learn of passenger travel on a train when they see than Amtrack has derailed once again and dozens of people are dead or in the hospital. Plus in most major cities, I'll cite L.A. and Dallas for examples having been to both, you'll never hear someone respond to a complaint on the terrible traffick jams by saying, "yeah, but you can just take the train/subway, it's faster anyways." I'm 29 and most of my friends in Tokyo don't even own cars....they don't feel the need to.
America is fighting a cultural battle on this one. Gas is dirt cheap compared to just about anywhere else in the world and it's just more convenient for every average joe to have a car and drive everywhere. Until this changes, there's not going to be a lot of interest in riding a new high speed, low drag, sexy maglev. Well, other than the geek in all of us wanting to do it once so we can say we did.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, the Japanense people has the world most personal savings in the world. That is in absolute numbers not per person. (about $10 trillion)
source [about.com]
The current economical situation drives the average Japanese to spend even less money, which actually makes things worse. This is actually also the assessment of the Japanese goverment.
> when they see than Amtrack has derailed once again and dozens of people are dead or in the hospital
But they drive car? That is funny. What was the number one cause of unatural death?
> I'm 29 and most of my friends in Tokyo don't even own cars....they don't feel the need to.
Do they go out after 00:00? Or do they go out until 6:00? A car could come in handy. OTOH, you can't drink (or at least shouldn't), and there are also taxis. And compared to the costs of maintaining a car in Tokyo...
> The shinkansen (bullet train) is at least 5 times faster than driving a car and slightly cheaper than flying.
AFAIK, not anymore. For buisness people, flights with ANA can be even cheaper. The JR companies are losing market-share. That is why they faded out the old Shinkansen line, decreasing on-board service, and want faster trains. To be more competetive to the airlines.
Yes and no... (Score:3, Informative)
I live in Japan and I really like the bullet train. Going from Tokyo to Kyoto is great. It is faster than the plane but it is NOT cheaper. We live in Tokyo and when we go down to visit my wife's family in Shizuoka (about half-way to Kyoto) it is both faster AND cheaper to drive rather than take the train (that includes the super high highway tolls). Japan Rail is still trying to get out of its state owned, pork barrel mode and pull its act together as a competitive business.
Not a cultural battle so much as structural. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:2)
what the japanese have (Score:3, Funny)
bouncey pixelated boobies?
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:2, Informative)
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/031202/ap/d7v6
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Informative)
The japanese definately have the economy to do this, like has been mentioned. From the page:
A landmark for Maglev occurred in 1990 when it gained the status of a nationally-funded project.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:2)
Errr, that's like saying "VA Linux definitely has the funding to build a maglev train from Eric Raymond's house to their offices. Why, in 1999 they bought Slashdot for $300 million in stock!"
Anyway, since the article is completely Slashdotted (or just taken down by their regular readers looking for more pictures of Sadda
It doesn't work there either (Score:3, Informative)
Just like the flying car...a loser? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Just like the flying car...a loser? (Score:5, Informative)
Birmingham International Airport in Britian used to have a MagLev running [bhx.co.uk] from '84-'95. It was shut down due to high maintenance cost and replaced with a cable-drawn rail system.
The Shanghai Transrapid [transrapid.de] looks at first blush like a running passenger service, but look closer and it is a "Test Facility" that gives guided tours and "Demonstration Rides".
There can be no doubt about the technical capabiltiy to build these things, but the practical viability has yet to be seen.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:2)
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:2)
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, here in the Northeast, the Boston-New York-Washington DC corridor would be a prime target for a Maglev train - the passenger volume is there, the airports are a huge hassle with congestion, weather problems in the winter, and massive traffic issues (driving to Logan in Boston or JFK in New York - ugh). Instead, we have legislation in Connecticut that prevents trains from going faster than 75 miles per hour for "safety reasons", so Amtrak blows a couple billion dollars on the sleek looking "Acela" trains, which go barely faster than the normal old fashion trains running the express routes. You shave about 30-40 minutes off of your travel time Boston to New York, and pay 3 times as much.
So instead they've had to market it as business class travel and sell it based on amenities instead of speed. Pure insanity. What we need is legislation and engineering working together to get a real high-speed train system down this heavy traffic corridor in place as a proof of concept AND proof of economical viability, so the price per mile can come down enough to build similar capability for longer runs.
Maglev or no, there's no technical reason that I'm aware of that high speed trains aren't running this corridor, just a lack of creative problem solving effort and cooperation between government and industry to get the damned thing built.
Amtrak NEC goes 120mph (Score:4, Interesting)
You will never ever see the entire DC-to-Boston corridor converted to maglev because the last leg of the rail-based system has a lower speed limit. That's just ridiculous.. try taking the train to Philly one day and you'll see what the rest of us have been enjoying for decades.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:2)
They have daily things called "earthquakes". They break stuff sometimes.
If you're gonna be rebuilding stuff anyways, might as well upgrade while you're at it.
Yes, geological activity has an impact on the local culture and society...who'd have thought? : )
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:2)
Yes, that's right. As of now, it's cheaper to fly from NY to Boston thank to take the train.
Until the cost drops down, driving is still going to remain more attractive.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a reason for that... airline fuel is not taxed, nor are ticket sales (at least in Europe), nor are airline purchases, airport construction is subsidised by government funding as are the links to connect them to the rest of the transport system.
If trains could get the same tax breaks as the airline industry has been pigging on for the last sixty years things might be different.
Best wishes,
Mike.
A view (Score:2)
Japans ability to build for the future is why they have this.
I live in Oregon. We have a rail system thatw as very expensive, and some people think its waste.
I beleive in 20 years, the local people will look back an cosider it a fantastic forward looking idea.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:2)
What do the Japanese have that the US does not, to allow them to create a MagLev?
A monarchy. In a free capitalist society, such a waste of money could never exist.
Oh, who am I kidding. We waste billions of dollars on Amtrak.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:3, Informative)
For the same reason they have better broadband. Geographically denser population than the US.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Insightful)
1) V. High Population Density. This allows you build public transportation routes at a low distance (cost) per passenger.
2) Public Transport Culture. They are used to public transport as a reliable, effective and convenient method of travel. As in Australia, the US still relies a personal cars as the most convenient method of travel.
3) There's already huge overhead on materials and other expenses in Japan, such that the cost of additional technology becomes less significant. This is the same reason why your mobile phone has so many features, while you're lucky if your landline phone has caller id.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:3, Funny)
Tiny Japanese people...easier to lift with magnets
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:2, Funny)
I don't know. Those Sumo wreslters look like they could hide a MagLev train in their ass.
And believe me, it's entirely fair to generalize about an entire population based on its wrestlers.
Just look at the US and the WWF.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:3, Insightful)
Competent management less interested in personal ambition, office politics, stuffing their own pockets and corporate bullshit than building something practical and useful on time and within budget.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:5, Informative)
One alternative I've seen to this is a passive maglev system which uses passive copper coils on the track and "hallbach" magnets on the train. The hallbach magnets create a sinusoidal magnetic field, and as the train moves over the passive coils, the coils produce a repulsive field. As long as the train is moving fast enough, it will rise up off the tracks. If the propulsion fails, the train will just slow down until it lands back on the tracks. No complex control system needed. Also, the hallbach magnets have the unusual property that the magnetic field is only on one side of the magnet, so you need less shielding for the passenger compartment.
There is a real system based on this. It is called Inductrak [llnl.gov]. It was developed at Lawrence Livermore National Lab. The article I linked to was kind of old, so I don't know if they've made any progress lately.
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:2)
UK Maglev (Score:5, Informative)
Maglev is terribly "neat", but nobody seems to have solved the fundamental problem that if you use just a fraction of the amount of power required to levitate the train to push a wheeled one instead, the wheeled one goes a damn site faster and costs less to run
Re:If I'm Not Mistaken (Score:3, Insightful)
A commitment to efficient public infrastructure and to an efficient public transportation system, as opposed to a worshipping of cars.
When has having an the need (Score:2, Interesting)
Seriously just go with the best most practical solution
Trains are obsolete (Score:5, Interesting)
The only trains that survive are local trains (like the BART) and subways really...but for those purposes there is no reason to have a MagLev system--it is too costly to implement for such a small project. magLev would be great long distance, but again, planes are still more popular and don't take up real estate on the ground.
Trains, planes, and automobiles...the first of the bunch is just dropping out of the equation here in America.
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:2)
Amtrak and VIA might not be popular, but the TVG is well used.
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:5, Insightful)
But when you get an organization like amtrak, that launches a supposedly 'high speed' service (acela) that is only 15 minutes faster than the normal train on the same route and costs you twice as much to ride, and cost several millions to build, and was late on its maiden voyage (i think it even broke down). Well This is not a problem with train being obsolete, its a problem with the operator, the operator in this case is Amtrak.
I have about a millions seething hate stories about Amtrak. remind me to tell you one some time.
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: *Amtrak* is obsolete (Score:4, Interesting)
I've always liked trains, though I almost never ride them. I was really looking forward to this opportunity, and was quite let down.
For starters, the train was at least 15 minutes late arriving at the station (in Kirkwood). Then, we were told that Amtrak trains to Chicago never really leave directly from Kirkwood's station. They have to first travel to the downtown station. (So in other words, more wasted time before we really got under way.) The downtown St. Louis Amtrak station is a disgrace. It looks like an old tin shack. Ever since our original station (Union Station) was decomissioned and turned into a shopping mall, Amtrak has never bothered to replace it with anything remotely decent-looking. Then, our train stopped out in the middle of nowhere for at least 30 minutes, waiting for the track to clear up ahead. (Perhaps another Amtrak train broke down? They never did explain.) Then, there were all of the scheduled stops at little stations where it seemed that nobody got on or off anyway. The train cars themselves were at best, in "average" condition. They reminded me of old seats on a bus that needed a good cleaning or reupholstering. By the time we finally arrived in Chicago, I was *very* glad to be off the train, and felt like driving would have been the superior experience. (I still had to get a rental car for the rest of our Chicago trip anyway.)
It's obvious that Amtrak has NO clue how to properly run a public transportation system - and they're rather perpetuate the belief that trains just aren't profitable anymore than take the steps needed to succeed. I really hope they do go bankrupt and govt. doesn't bail them back out. Maybe then, a private investor will buy up the right-of-ways and equipment and run it like a real business!
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:3, Insightful)
ge tit inot the private sector where it will have an incentive to make *people* happy, instead of just making a legislator happy by saying he brought jobs via Amtrak.
Only then will you see Amtrak be responsive, productive, and viable.
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:4, Insightful)
Before you knock Amtrak outside the NW corridor, you know what? THEY DON'T OWN THE TRACKS!! High speed trains -- you've got to be kidding. The _track_ is so bad between Minneapolis and Chicago, several times we've gone about 25 mph for stretches of miles at a time. Woo Hoo! We ain't becomin' no 3rd world country.
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:3, Insightful)
Amtrak problem is Amtrak.
Don't blame Amtrak. This is a political mess yet Amtrak takes the blame. Congress mandates that Amtrak act like a lean business yet provide the benefits of a government service. They are required to do things like operate unprofitable routes/timetables, etc. They are in the same long-term no win situation that the Post Office has been put in. When it's a political mess, ultimately, the blame lies with the People for either being 1) too apathetic or 2) too selfish (what? the go
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
No. (Score:3, Funny)
They are not going anywhere.
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:5, Informative)
In my time in Australia, I was WELL introduced to their mass transit systems, in both Sydney [railpage.org.au] and Melbourne [railpage.org.au]. For both cities, Trains, as well as Trams and buses, are their main modes (yes, MAIN) modes of transportation. Yes, people have cars there, but more than 100 million kilometers [atsb.gov.au] were travelled by train in 2002 alone; the bulk of it being in New South Wales, and Victoria (44 million and 32 million, respectively) alone.
Trains are very much alive, and will be for a very long time. It is just the United States, which has lacked in picking up on a trend that transports hundreds of thousands of people, in favour of polluting the air with carbon monoxide gases from car exhaust.
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:3, Insightful)
The issue is, too many Americans live in other areas and are too widely spaced. You can't p
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:3, Insightful)
Woah there. I'm not a big fan of the train, but it does polute less per passanger mile. A train may have a diesel engine burning 4 gallons of fuel per mile (I have no idea what the true number is, so don't do math based on this) but if there are 100 cars to the train, and 20 people in each car, you need to divide that out. Compare a bunch of cars with 4 people in it getting 30 mpg, and the train already is looking better, then remember that most cars have just one person in them.
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:5, Interesting)
The reason is the "tails" on your trip. Airports are usually further out from the core city than train depots so you might have an extra 10-15 minutes of travel time on each tail just to get to/from the airport. Then there's delays while the plane taxis to/from one of the few operating runways instead of navigating through the switchyard - add another 10 minutes. And the time to get through security. And an extra 30 minutes (minimum) you want in case there's a backup in security, or the train to/from the concourses is running slow, etc.
When you're finally in the air on a short hop, you might not even spend any time cruising at 500 knots. If you listen to the ATC chatter you'll know that it takes 50-100 miles to climb up to cruising altitude, and the same to descend to the airport. So if your hop is under 200 miles you might not get to cruising altitude, and anything under 400 miles may spend less time cruising than passing through the inverted wedding cake.
Flights clearly win if you're traveling more than a 1000 miles or there's not a direct ground route (e.g., because of large bodies of water or mountains), but there's a strong argument for grounding all flights under 150-200 miles. They clutter the airways and ATC system and aren't that much faster than ground transportation that doesn't make frequent stops. The ATC factor is so bad that som airlines have requested permission to fly below the normal jetways - it's far less fuel efficient and they can't travel as fast, but they don't have delays waiting for available spots in the crowded flight levels.
Amtrak NJ-Washington (Score:2)
YES! (Score:3, Interesting)
That's what I hate about airports and airplanes. It's not just the hurry up and wait, it's the stress that the place generates. You're constantly worried about being late or missing something. You have to wait in the lobby so long that you'd like to take a nap, but then the plane will probably board and take off while you're sleeping.
The shinkansen (bullet trains) here in Japan run every 5-15 minutes between Tokyo and Osaka. You can buy a non-reserved seat and get on ANY train. Miss the 9:00 AM train
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:2)
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:2)
The problem with Amtrak in America is the tic
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:2)
You're forgetting one thing that will see the train remain an important transportation system in the US for at least decades, if not centuries to come: freight.
Passenger rail--aside from commuter rail, as you correctly note--is just as if not more expensive than air travel, goes fewer places, and takes longer to get there. On the other hand, freight rail is cheaper and more effecient than currently available alternatives,
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:5, Interesting)
Here in Canada, buses and trains are the only mode of transportation within provinces (which are very large) unless you own a car (and want to pay 50-100 dollars in gas... which is the price of a bus ticket) or can pay enourmous fees for the airplane. They are VERY popular, and wont be losing any popularity as long as people still want to see their friends and families.
To cross the country the only viable method of transportation is airplane. Maglev could offer a great alternative to the 6 hour, 800 dollar flight from Toronto to Vancouver. Your shallow argument against using trains for long distance (magLev would be great long distance, but again, planes are still more popular and don't take up real estate on the ground.) is downright stupid. In case you are unaware of your own history and geography, trains have been around for 200 years, and the cross-country tracks that they built for them still exist. Personally I'll take a high speed train over a high-priced plane any day of the week, and the lack of high-speed cross-country trains more than accounts for the popularity of the only other practical mode of cross-country transportation.
But I guess you've never been to Europe, or travelled Asia either. In those densely populated areas trains are by far the best way to travel. Jumping on the Chunnel train is far easier than getting to Heathrow three hours early so the security check can lose your baggage. With the chunnel train someone can live in London and go to work in Calais or Paris. Now just imagine if cross-country, or even inter-province (or inter-state) travel within North America was that cost-effective and convinient. A tourist to Europe will always get a Train pass unless they are not planning on leaving the city they start in. There is literally no other practical way for a tourist to travel within Europe. Too bad the world's biggest industry (tourism) did not cross your mind when you were evaluating trains.
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:3, Interesting)
Here in Europe no one would even dream about taking an airplane for small journeys. Trains are cheaper and faster, routinely doing 150-200 MPH, and without security delays, airport crap, and so on.
Re:Trains are obsolete (Score:2)
We don't tax gas like the rest of the world.
I'm a big believer that price and cost should reflect each other. The cost of cars is huge: in road construction, in highway deaths, in pollution. The price doesn't reflect the cost because those in power--companies that ship their goods by truck, the highway lobby, auto companies and their unions--like being subsidized. Classic American politics: the screaming of the minority is heard over the grumbling of the majo
$5/gallon?! Is that the best you can do? (Score:2)
Case in point: All those toll roads. It's said that the tolls are necessary to keep the roads running, however there are plenty of roads out there that seem to manage just fine on gas taxes.
So why the extra $$? To cut down on the usage of the road! Force people to use more public transportation. Guess what? Places like the Northern Virgina Reston/Tyson's Corner toll ro
It wouldn't have happened anyways. (Score:3, Interesting)
But the only version that was hauling passengers -- a low-speed, half-mile people mover at Birmingham International Airport in England -- was junked four years ago in favor of a standard shuttle bus.
Such setbacks haven't dimmed the ardor of international proponents of high-speed maglev (short for magnetic levitation), however, and in fact the chances to build the first systems in the United States seem tantalizingly close. Seven projects, awarded federal grants totaling $12 million, are competing to win $950 million more next year to design and start construction.
One of the seven -- a consortium beginning to build a half-mile test track in Titusville, Fla. -- includes the Long Island scientists who invented much of the original technology. "Within two years, we will have the first working maglev system in America," boasts promotional literature from the consortium, Maglev 2000, which also includes the state of Florida and Dowling College's National Aviation and Transportation Center in Oakdale.
Physicists James Powell and Gordon Danby, both then at Brookhaven National Laboratory, in 1968 pioneered the use of "supermagnets" intended to lift entire trains and whirl them along a guideway. An Army Corps of Engineers report said maglevs could exceed 500 mph when fully developed -- head-spinning ground speed for moving people and goods.
But the United States abandoned its efforts in 1975, and Japan and Germany have dominated maglev research ever since; Japan has built upon Danby and Powell's ideas while Germany came up with a rival technology. Either country could have systems carrying paying passengers in the next few years,but hurdles in funding, politics and environmental protection remain.
There are some technical problems that need to be worked out on test tracks, including stabilizing the fast-moving trains on the air cushion, assuring they can negotiate curves smoothly and developing complex switching networks for trains to pull off main lines and into depots. The Birmingham minisystem was replaced partly because of technical difficulties.
But renewed federal interest is sparking new hopes for maglev in this country. Two years ago, a panel of experts named by the secretary of transportation concluded: "The long-term development of magnetic levitation transportation in the United States is critical to addressing the nation's long-term transportation needs."
Powell said he believes that by midcentury, as regional maglevs emerge, one might be built the length of Long Island, moving freight and passengers swiftly to connecting points such as Grand Central Station and freight depots. Ultimately, the Florida consortium proposes a 20-mile project linking Port Canaveral to the Kennedy
Space Center and Titusville Regional Airport.
Other U.S. applicants are pushing visions including a 45-mile system between Pittsburgh International Airport and the city's eastern suburbs, a 40-mile run between Baltimore and Washington, D.C., and a 75-mile system connecting Los Angeles International Airport to downtown and points farther east in Riverside County.
The federal support has limits, however. Under the law, it would pay only for guideways; state and private sector funds would have to pay for cars, stations and the rest. Congress could also decline to start parceling out the $950 million; the impending retirement of Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-N.Y.), a champion of maglev, could delay the U.S. catchup effort.
Most of the delay in maglev's debut elsewhere has come down to money and environmental concerns. Construction of the German Transrapid system, after years of tests up to 300 mph with people on board, was to begin this year but was stalled again in recent weeks amid battling over the proposed $6 billion, 185-mile Berlin-Hamburg route.
And powerful environm
Re:It wouldn't have happened anyways. (Score:2)
The train was junked not 'in favour' of a shuttle bus, but rather that it kept breaking down and cost too much to maintain. Believe me, as someone who traveled between birmingham station via both the maglev, and the shuttle bus, I can say that the maglev was much, much quicker, and more conveniant.
There is n
Stupidity is... (Score:5, Interesting)
Even more stupid is insisting on a maglev solution when there are equally fast and substantially less-expensive traditional solutions, aka the French and Japanese bullet trains. One of those puppies just broke the 500kmh barrier with passengers.
Re:Stupidity is... (Score:2)
I believe that that was the maglev [rtri.or.jp] (see final paragraph)
Re:Stupidity is... (Score:5, Insightful)
A MagLev can run at 581 kph as its top speed and its intended operating speed is 500 kph. This is partly because of its acceleration rate and partly due to the infrastructure. It is also much much quieter allowing it to be run closer to commercial/residential buildings.
The TGV has the current top record for a conventional train at a speed of 515 kph. However, it operates at a max of 220 kph. The JR Central line in Japan operates at about 270 kph.
Now, I'm not sayinng that running a short track MagLev was the brightest thing in the world, but for a long run (San Francisco to LA for instance), it can easily outpace a plane after you take into account the thirty minutes you have to wait to get on and off.
Plus, no one is going to crash a MagLev into a building.
Re:Stupidity is... (Score:2, Informative)
Your information is not completely correct. The operating speeds for all but the oldest TGV are at least 300kph. [o-keating.com]
Your reference seems to be speeds on "normal" rails, but many of the routes in France are designed for 300kph (or higher) speeds, and are used for commercial traffic at these speeds.
Re:Stupidity is... (Score:4, Informative)
No, it does not. It operates at an avg of 300 kph, and a max of well over (around 340 kph). It does Paris-Marseille, a distance of over 800 km, in 3 hours several times a day, and that's with the slower speeds near the origin and destination cities.
Smiles abound.. (Score:2)
Shanghai [gluckman.com]
Mono... D'oh! (Score:3, Funny)
What'd I say?
Ned Flanders: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
Patty+Selma: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: That's right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail' softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud...
Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley: You'll be given cushy jobs.
Abe: Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I'm on the level.
Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it's Springfield's only choice...
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: Once again...
All: Monorail!
Marge: But Main Street's still all cracked and broken...
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
Homer: Mono... D'oh!
Newark Airport Monorail (Score:2)
Is a maglev train an impractical fantasy? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: Is a maglev train an impractical fantasy? (Score:3, Informative)
A pessimistic view (Score:4, Interesting)
I predict there will continue to be only a few, very specialized routes that utilize maglev. I would imagine there are less than 20 routes in the world where maglev truly makes sense.
Re:A pessimistic view (Score:2)
But our governments will never common good sense stop them from spending unlimited budgets!
Re:A pessimistic view (Score:2)
Actually I would imagine that the likelyhood of derailment would make this idea more popular, especially for passenger or chemical/biological waste transportation. My guess as to the reaon why this is not going to be cheap is the lost jobs for engineers and other railway personnel. Maglev trains practically drive themselves and if you need to stop a train you simply turn off a section or two of track. Personally
Derailed by Money Problems? (Score:3, Funny)
Wierd Science (Score:2)
14 Million? (Score:3, Interesting)
There is money to be made (or saved) in public transport. There are several routes right now that are crying out for fast efficient public transport where maglev is the best answer (London Commuter Corridors, Germany Inter-City and New York to Washington). These are routes which people will pay for faster services. Someone just has to have the willpower and political stamina to bring it to fruition.
Like any new technology, the first one will be expensive and probably not the fastest. But this technology has to start somewhere.
A hair dryer can lift 2500 lbs.? (Score:2)
Re:A hair dryer can lift 2500 lbs.? (Score:2)
Perhaps the author meant "can produce a magnetic field that can lift a 50,000 car 1/4 inch".
Re:A hair dryer can lift 2500 lbs.? (Score:3, Informative)
Hair Dryers - power - measured in watts.
50,000 pounds lifted 1/4 inch - a measure of energy, or work done
energy = power * time
So you just need to factor in the amount of time required to lift the train cars.
I suspect the press release was actually referring to the power loss in the system (as heat) when maintaining 1/4 of lift above the rail.
In comparison, the French TGV system requires 0.0 watts of pow
There's still a lot of life in wheel on steel. (Score:2)
A really stupid project from the beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
The Birmingham airport maglev (1984-1995) was more ambitious. And it was so expensive to maintain that it was replaced with a cable-driven system.
The only maglev system being proposed that makes any economic sense is the link from Orlando Airport to Disney World. Disney wants to build that so that their customers bypass all other attractions and go directly to Disney property.
Maglev Good!. This project, Really Bad. (Score:5, Insightful)
To summarize
They are concerned about how the project was managed.
Concerned that the investment may not get repaid.
There are problems with the control system (not the magnetic levittation system itself note)
The assets are apparently a series of patents. Thats odd really, considering this is a tewenty year old technology.
The board and the university may have screwed up, they didn't put appropriate bonds in place, so now they are all nervous as to who gets blamed.
A board member now blames the technology, saying that others (Japan) could not make it work. This is incorrect.
Another guy refused to invest because of problems with the company (not the technology).
Maglev trains are described as "floats on a cushion of air". Duh. Fine journalism.
FRA has issued a stop work order, as usual asleep at the wheel. Way way way too late IMHO.
Overall, they all completely mismanaged this, tried to invent new stuff that doesn't work, and now need another two million dollar handout to get out of the hole they dug for us, the victim taxpayers.
Oh, and in the process they tarnish the reputation of a transportation technology we actually need.
Thanks for nothing ODU and FRA guys. Do us a favor, go fire yourselves.
Strange definition of "efficient"... (Score:2)
"because it is an innovative approach to moving people in an innovative and efficient way."
Efficient, at least in economic terms, usually means that it is the best possible use of resources. Spending $14 million on a project that has so far yielded nothing hardly fits that definition, especially considering how many shuttle buses, gas, and driver's salaries could have been purchased with $14 million.
Maglev best @ high speed in vaccum (Score:2)
Re:Maglev best @ high speed in vaccum (Score:2)
China has a commercial maglev. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:China has a commercial maglev. (Score:3, Interesting)
However, I would be happy to engage the Chinese in a "maglev race". We get effective transportation as a side effect. After a while, we may even begin to stop subsidizing new airport construction.
Makes me think of the Concorde (Score:3, Interesting)
Maglev reality.. (Score:5, Informative)
- the japanese are doing it right. slow, methodical, engineering-sensible development will probably result in a chuo-shinkansen maglev in 10-15 years at the longest and possibly in as little as 5-10 years. See here [rtri.or.jp] for a gentle introduction.
- the chinese are building a maglev shanghai-beijing. every engineer or knowledgable person i have ever spoken to has said that this was a rushed through engineering abortion; an inefficient showpiece really. still, there's something to be said for having it done first, and, if the chinese do it, then more power to them.
- 14 million of research from an ab initio program isn't enough to make a toilet handle on a maglev train. a maglev is something at least as complicated as a 777 given all the supporting things that need to be built such as stations, emergency vehicles, turnouts (switches), safety devices, computer systems, and so forth. 14 million for a maglev project is GUARANTEED not to go anywhere other than perhaps some basic research in electrical systems that the japanese have done long ago.
- a maglev is PERFECT for:
- the US northeast corridor
- london-edinburgh via manchester/liverpool
- tokyo-osaka via the chuo-shinkansen route (duh).
- hong kong - guangzhou - shanghai
Incidentally, I find Japan Railway Technical Review [jrtr.net] journal to be a well-written intelligent web site with discussion of the true state of the art of trains. Worth a read if you actually read things in more than the slashdot 3-second scan way.The US did a lot of work on MagLev a long time ago (Score:4, Interesting)
The US did invest heavily in trains. It was nixed. Probably because of mob mentality. More about that later.
In the 1970's, Secretary of Transportation John Volpe demanded and encouraged and funded LIMRV, Linear Induction Motor Research Vehicle and TLRV. Tracked Levitated Research Vehicle amongst others. Companies including Ford, Garret and Grumman were asked to come up with designs.
Grumman built and tested TLRV, and was tested at 300mph (480kmh).
Garret built a test vehicle had a speed of 256mph (410kmh) in 1965. That is just 12mph shy of a brand new system in China now being readied for use in the Shanghai metro area, but it was done, again, 38 year before.
With the insane resistance to nuclear power (check out France meeting its power needs beautifully and cleanly for a case study as to why to use it), electrical train designs fell by the wayside. The resistance to nuclear power gave birth to the Oil Mafias of today (and the subsequent cartels, OPEC, and undesirable cash flow to undesirable regions), and these trains fell by the wayside.
If you add up all the miles of railroad in the USA, 194,731km/121,000miles, which is huge compared to other companies by raw number or by per-capita (Russia has 87,157km/54,168mi ; China 71,600km/44,499mi ; India 63,518km/39,477mi ; Japan 23,168km/14,400mi ; Germany 45,514km/28287mi ; Sweden 11,481km/7135mi ; UK 16,893/10500mi). Apparently the US does have railway know-how.
I think it is safe to say when large, uneducated public outcry affects the policies of a government, particularly when it is about the root of all economies, energy; you give birth to more evil demons. By creating this negative stigma about the word nuclear (an MRI in a hospital is really an NMR, Nuclear Magnetic Resonance imaging, but people hate "nuclear.") and all things nuclear, you bought yourself an oil mafia, fossil fuel trains, fossil fuel cars, fossil fuel being used to create energy that melts ore into metal for every car, from SUV to Train to Plane to Automobile (about 70% of ALL power consumed in the US is by industry, about maybe 30% is people and their cars.)
Now solving the new crisis will require pragmatism, like wind and nuclear power. But windmills were just recently protested in the Nantucket Sound and despite having personally lived next to a nuclear power plant (there were no cases of thyroid cancer, but several cases of GI tract cancers caused by industrial solvents poured into the water supply) people don't want this new technology, because every time we rolled it out, people bitch.
Think - the SR-71A flew in late 1965 for the first time. No plane to date (except maybe the Aurora) has topped jet engine in top speed. We've taken that know how and for 30 years did other things with it. All was not lost =).
Some real information (Score:3, Interesting)
The transrapid system in Germany allows public passengers and does 250mph with no issues. Maglev isn't new hat. The system at ODU is different in design, with the guideway aimed at being much lower in cost than the design offered by Transrapid and the like. Basically the guideway is dumb and the train itself contains the logic for stepping the magnets and such. The guideway isn't very large, if you saw it in real life it makes you wonder how wide the actual train is (I haven't seen the train, just the guideway).
The rumors I've heard, but the president of American Maglev wouldn't comment when I emailed them was this: the train worked fine on the test track in Flordia when it was on the ground (it has been demonstrated to move!) but once it was up on the guideway problems hit. Someone told me that what is happening is the rail flexes from the weight of the cars, then the system adjusts for the change in gap between guideway and car, then the change causes the rail to bounce and it enters an oscillation loop..... I know someone that saw it move in Flordia, so it really happened. They just didn't plan on rail flex issues.
The fix is supposidly known, but congress hasn't released the 2 million to them to fix the thing yet. Meanwhile some local companies want payment for services rendered in construction of the stations. Supposidly money is set aside to pay for the entire removal of the project. American Maglev supposidly defaulted on payment in Flordia on their facilities there as well (there are articles on the intarweb from the paper down there casting a negative light on the issue).
American Maglev was trying to sell the Virginia Beach oceanfront resort on the system, but they didn't buy it. It wasn't a hotel or a convention center. Finally years later ODU got involved. While the whole thing smells of Marge versus the Monorail from the Simpsons, really assuming they spent the money properly I would have no gripes against American Maglev.
I personally hope to see it run, but things aren't looking good for American Maglev. If they get this thing moving (which they supposidly have a solution to fix it) then there is the remote hope that our region will become the center of development for the maglev monorail industry.
Also -- if you are in the Hampton Roads area and are a geek, consider joining the HRConnect HR-Geeks mailing list at www.hrconnect.com [hrconnect.com] (under mailing lists).
Re:Impractical Fantasy? Japan, Britain, Germany... (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps THIS is of a MagLev is impractical?
Also, what was the end cost of those systems?
Just because they exost, doesn't make them practical.
OTOH, perhaps it was a mismanagement of funds.
Re:Impractical Fantasy? Japan, Britain, Germany... (Score:2)
None in production use, just tests (Score:2)
Re:I know what they can build... (Score:2)
Not in the United States (Score:3, Insightful)