Spain, Morocco To Build Undersea Rail Tunnels 503
DoraLives writes "The BBC reports that Spain and Morocco 'have agreed to build a 39-kilometre rail tunnel beneath the Mediterranean Sea, to link Europe and Africa.' and that 'This plan could be put into action as early as next year...' Fairly daunting technical piece of work should they attempt it, but the prospect of an all-rail trip from Edinburgh to Tangiers is intriguing to say the least."
Bah, that's nothing (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, I have a more ridiculous case: according to Amtrak, if I want to go from Saint Louis to Minneapolis I have a nice eight-hour train ride through Chicago; but since the train travels in a loop and not a line, the return trip from Minneapolis to Saint Louis goes through... SEATTLE and takes seven days, and costs three thousand dollars. N
Actually... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Actually... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Actually... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Actually... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Actually... (Score:5, Funny)
$? Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:5, Informative)
Er, "m" in Europe/Africa is 1e6, right? I can't imagine what sort of "preliminary three-year plan of works" in such an Herculean effort could be done for a mere $30 million.
Look at the big dig in Boston -- a relatively easy task (shorter by far, at least) with initial estimates of $4billion (I think) and 40-50% overruns, I can't imagine much more than breaking ground on either end of this proposed gargantuan tunnel getting done for $30m.
Re:$? Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:$? Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
We did the right-of-way thing once before (Score:3, Informative)
In California, for example, Reagan pushed to have the interstate come right out into the Fisherman's Wharf area, but that got nixed. In the Twin Cities, where I live, we have a "Days of Rondo" celebration every year -- the Rondo neighborhood in Saint Paul having been cut in
Re:$? Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:3, Insightful)
There are two ways of building a tunnel under water, one is to use TBMs, the other is sink prefabricated sections. The former is less disruptive in the middle of a shipping lane.
It doesn't even need to be ventilated, as the trains will be run by electricity. By comparison, a car tunnel under a city is shallow and has to be ventilated. (so people don't die
Re:$? Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
It's fair to say that the Big Dig was too expensive, but I don't think that it could be considered "easy" relative to anything.
I think your point would've been better made comparing this project to the Chunnel. That 30 mile link cost about $13 billion (U.S.). So, yeah, 30 million seems a bit on the low side.
Re:$? Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:3, Interesting)
However as regards distance, and the cost of fitting out with track, signalling etc, they are not all that different. But railway track is only about 1M (UKP) per mile anyway, that is the cheapest p
Re:$? Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:3, Informative)
Re:$? Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:3, Interesting)
I suspect the $30m is for the 3 year planning, not the tunnel dig itself.
Thank said, such a tunnel would of great interest. The chunnel takes cars (on trains) and train passengers much faster between the UK and the rest of europe than ferries.
Once the new high-speed london to kent rail link is finished, it will be possible to go from London to Paris in 2 1/2 hours.
One can only imagine how much e
Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you will find statements like that is overly optimistic. It's 25 years from now, you seem to think of 2030 as something out of Flash Gordon. Never predict the future by relying on future inventions. It' slike saying land will be in abundance in the future because we will have the ability to graft gills on humans.
While the techniqes you describe certainly is/will come about in laberatorys and research, its a far cry from i
Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:3, Insightful)
When I was in grade school, I remember being amazed at my mom going in for the then brand-new laser surgery on her knee. Now people have it done all the time, even voluntarily to improve their vision.
The computer we had (which was a rarity - I knew two other kids with access to one) ran at 1MHz and had 128k of RAM. The DVD-Rs I bought yesterday each hold something like 75,000 times as much data as its floppy disks.
If you
Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
25 years ago, half the population of the earth was poor, had no easy access to fresh water, and millions were fleeing war and disorder. Today, half the population of the earth is poor, and has no easy access to fresh water, and millions are fleeing war and disorder.
Abigail
Re:Bah, that's nothing (Score:4, Informative)
I used to take it between Seattle and Vancouver BC all of the time and it was fine. I also took the Seattle/Portland round-trip once and it was the same (although I hear that one is less reliable).
It sure beats sitting on a bus, IMO. The seats are nicer and so is the scenery out the window.
much more practical solution (Score:5, Funny)
possibly cannons
Re:much more practical solution (Score:5, Funny)
One question occurs to me though. Will this change the ending of Casablanca?
Re:much more practical solution (Score:5, Funny)
.
Re:much more practical solution (Score:3, Funny)
For some reason, I'm reminded of the Reaching the Americas [ironycentral.com] experiment.
Re:much more practical solution (Score:3, Funny)
Re:much more practical solution (Score:4, Funny)
It will be interesting (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It will be interesting (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It will be interesting (Score:2)
Spain and Morocco? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Spain and Morocco? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Spain and Morocco? (Score:5, Informative)
I suspect this is because neither country has a reputation (deserved or not) for incredible timeliness or efficiency.
Re:Spain and Morocco? (Score:3, Interesting)
And the idea was first brought at the time of Napoleon...
Besides, when you consider the degree of nervousness in Spain (and Europe) over immigration concerns, I don't think anything serious will be undertaken before at least a few decades.
Thomas Miconi
Re:Spain and Morocco? (Score:3, Insightful)
The tunnel itself will probably need to be a good 50 metres beneath that so we're talking a damn deep tunnel built under HUGE water pressure conditions.
Also for the tunnel to be usable by large freight trains the grade can't be very steep so it'll have to have a large amount of tunnel either side of
the deepest point. This is going to be one expensive project and I for one can't see Morocco
Re:Spain and Morocco? (Score:4, Funny)
Whether it will be of much use like the France - Britain connection is maybe less than obvious. I Like going to the UK via the tunnel (I live in Denmark), but only a very limited amount of people outside Spain and Morocco will choose to travel through the tunnel as air travel is much cheaper these days.
You should see the traffic jams we have in Spain every summer when all African people who live in Europe (mainly Spain and France) return to their homelands by car.
interesting perspective... (Score:2, Funny)
And in other news: fog in (English) Channel, Continent isolated :)
Most Excellent! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Most Excellent! (Score:2)
It destroyed the Florida keys.... and I hear a lot of Asia/Europe hates McDonalds
Re:Most Excellent! (Score:2, Offtopic)
I'm not European (I'm from the US), but I spend a fair amount of each year in both Spain and Italy.
I don't like seeing McDonands spread all across Europe either, but they are everywhere (it's not fun seeing a 7/11 in downtown Madrid either). People of my generation (40s) generally don't eat there, but you can bet you'll see plenty of young people eating there. Like it or not, capitalism is quite alive and well in western Europe.
Re:Most Excellent! (Score:5, Insightful)
What will happen is a lot of local culture will disappear in place of the golden arches and starbucks. All so McDonalds can claim to have served 4 trillion instead of 3 trillion.
I'm all for freedom of trade but greed is bad no matter which way you look at it.
Does it? (Score:5, Informative)
I mean I'm no authority on it.. but Morocco is not really one of the "terorrist hotspots" of the muslim world..
The King has been very adamant about keeping muslim fundamentalists out of the country. The chiefly muslim population of Morocco are indeed very muslim, wear traditional garb, etc, but are not fundamentalist weirdos.. they respect others, other religions, and generally don't hate westerners.
Aside from being poor, Morocco was a neat place to visit, and the people were surprisingly well educated about world politics and geography, considering the poverty levels.
Morocco is a mix of cultures (Score:3, Interesting)
To the extent that they have violence, it's down in the Spanish Sahara, a culturally different area south of Morocco that the last few
question (Score:5, Funny)
Re:question (Score:5, Funny)
Edinburgh to Africa (Score:2)
Re:Edinburgh to Africa (Score:5, Funny)
Awesome. (Score:2, Funny)
New Target for Terrorists? (Score:4, Interesting)
I have to wonder if the boarding security for the trains running in this proposed tunnel would at least meet that of air travel?
A big enough bomb exploding in transit would basically scrap the whole kit-and-caboodle.
I bring this up because of the fact that Morocco likely has their Muslim fanatics as well, no?
More links to story (Score:2, Informative)
Spain and Morocco to build train tunnel under sea [reuters.co.uk]
Spain and Morocco plan tunnel link [guardian.co.uk]
Tunnel to link Spain and Morocco agreed [telegraph.co.uk]
Tunnel link for Africa and Europe [asia1.com.sg]
Spain, Morocco to build tunnel under Mediterranean Sea [haaretzdaily.com]
Spain, Morocco plan undersea tunnel [abc.net.au]
DON'T MOD THIS UP. MY KARMA IS ALREADY EXCELLENT (has been for months!)
Where's a Map?! (Score:5, Informative)
So man redundant links and not a one has a picture of where the tunnel will be located. :(
Can anyone find one? This is the best detail I could find. [esa.int]
(Does anyone else get the impression that almost the only maps available online are all stolen from the CIA World Factbook? Information Superhighway my ass...)
Re:Don't mod it up? (Score:3, Informative)
See how easy that is?
I can't help but wonder... (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder how well they have looked at this from an economics side. It seems like it would be a horrific waste of money if it is just being done for national prestige. The worry in such projects is that very few people are willing to say 'no' to such things. The companies involved in the building are of course more then happy to let the government foot the bill, and the companies on either side of coast are happy to have it put in at not cost to themselves. Of course, the people who are going to have to pick up the tab are the tax payers of the respective nations. Who is speaking for them in this project? I hope this is not just a government waste program between the two nations, as it could potentially be a very expensive one.
Re:I can't help but wonder... (Score:5, Insightful)
Much of europe, and of course Spain, are linked with very good railway system. A link to North Africa will boost tourism to both the countries as one has to travel to Spain enroute to Africa.
Lets not forget other possible usage of the link, like transportation of goods, etc.
Re:I can't help but wonder... (Score:5, Funny)
I've been saying for years that a rail line between Morocco and the European mainland would make it far more profitable to import that fine Moroccan hashish we all know and love!
Re:I can't help but wonder... (Score:4, Insightful)
The success of that is dependent on other infrastructure pieces in both countries of course, but the idea is interesting.
Re:I can't help but wonder... (Score:4, Insightful)
No matter what the final cost is going to be, it's going to be a tiny fraction of what the US spent in Iraq. And dollar for dollar, it's going to be far more effective in promoting democracy, helping economic development, and stopping terrorism.
It seems like it would be a horrific waste of money if it is just being done for national prestige.
Funny, that's what I always think about most US military spending.
let me spell it out for you (Score:3, Insightful)
My response is simple: no, it isn't. It is an effective and cheap means of promoting economic development and the development of democratic societies in Muslim nations in Northern Africa. Those kinds of cooperative infrastructure projects are, in fact, the only choice Europe seems to have for peaceful co-existence with its African and Middle Eastern neighbors.
To give Americans some idea of its order of magnitude, I made a comparison to a recen
Re:I can't help but wonder... (Score:3, Funny)
Why bother building what will certainly be an extremely expensive tunnel when one can simply build an airport or fairy dock?
Because international fairy freight doesn't have the same capacity as rail. Also, those little pixies are in short supply and have strong union representation which pushes the costs up.
Re:I can't help but wonder... (Score:5, Insightful)
It is precisely because Spain's financial means are more limited that the comparison is informative. Spain doesn't have the option of fighting big wars to deal with threats. Instead, they have to find means of promoting peace, development, and cooperation. One way they believe they can do that is through cooperative infrastructure projects.
Of course, it's dangerous to think that just because the US is a superpower, it is exempt from forces like budget deficits or capital flow. The current strength of the US military is bought at a staggering social and economic cost and it is anybody's guess how long it can be sustained.
The fact that the US spends lots of money does not add or subtract to the viability of such a massive government projects for Spain and Morocco. It is a cute commentary on US foreign policy, but plays no effect on whether these two nations should try and dig a tunnel under the sea.
Unless you have information that the rest of us don't, for now, we can assume that the Spanish have done their homework: as economic data shows, they are in far better control of their budget than the US is.
Note, incidentally, that digging has gotten a whole lot cheaper over the last decade and that there are many alternative tunnel technologies available as well, so there is no reason to believe that this project will be more than a blip in the Spanish budget.
Back to the topic at hand, the point was, regardless of what the US is doing, building such a tunnel is expensive. It is only justified if there is going to be some net gain for the two countries involved.
Yes, and the net gain is improved cooperation between Europe and Northern Africa, as well as a better shot at democratization and economic development in Morocco. Those are long-term goals that require long-term investments. Proponents of projects like these recognize that.
Yes, despite of this all, I think building a tunnel to a third world nation would be a bad idea for Spain.
Well, and Europeans don't want their neighboring third world nations to remain third world nations forever. That's why they try to integrate them and cooperate with them and why they invest in such projects.
The US approach to foreign policy, military intervention and a degree of isolationism, just is not workable for Europeans. While Europe is capable of creating a military to rival that of the US, Europeans are not willing to pay the financial or political cost of that. Furthermore, Europe's geographic location makes US-style isolationism impractical.
And that's the point of my original comparison between the Iraq war and this kind of project. Once you understand the relationship, you will understand why this kind of project makes financial sense to Europeans and why they can afford it.
All we need now... (Score:5, Interesting)
W00T!!!
Re:All we need now... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:All we need now... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:All we need now... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:All we need now... (Score:4, Informative)
By the way, the Pan-American highway has a small gap due to a nature preserve so your rally race would need to board ships. It is called the Darien Gap [american.edu] and is about 50 miles wide so it could also be closed with a tunnel. But I doubt if the economic incentive is there to do that way. More likely the rainforest will be sacrificed.
Other submarine tunnels (Score:5, Interesting)
The Seikan Tunnel [jinjapan.org]: Japan, Hokkaido - Honshu, built in 1988, 23.3 kilometer submarine
One Problem... (Score:5, Informative)
Now a tunnel across the Mediteranian is not going to work. First off, Tangiers is not exactly what I would call a "business" destination. Nor is Spain. You have to dig pretty deep on the African continent to find anywhere a typical European traveler would be going. Perhaps I am missing a pent up demand for travel from Africa. It didn't RTFA.
The next problem is travel time. Sure a ride from spain to Morroco would be a lot quicker via Train. A trip from France to Morroco a bit less so. From Scottland to Morrocco... well, only for the folks who want to do it because they can.
Finally I would like to note that the 2 countries involved are still involved in a few territorial spats. That is not a recipe for success on a multi-billion dollar project.
Having lived in the area... (Score:5, Interesting)
There are a lot of ferry rides across between Spain & Morocco on a daily basis. They are usually always packed.
Ferries run from Algeciras to Tangiers and Ceuta
Ferries also run several days a week from Gibraltar to Tangiers (not to Ceuta, I dont' think.. Spain hates Gib)
There is definately money to be had, anyway....
The economic value of such a tunnel would outshine any "spat" over territory...
What are they fighting over, anyway, Ceuta?
(Ceuta is a spanish protectorate/territory/colony/whatever in morocco, basically across the straight from Gibraltar.)
Commercia shipping is probably one of the largest reasons. Right now, the only way to get stuff from North Africa to ship it over the water. That's slow.
This would also give shippers a reason to bring more goods through Spain, as opposed to shipping around Spain (once you have the stuff loaded onto a ship.. might as well use that to your advantage.. why bother with spain at all?)
From Gibraltar or Algeciras to the coast of Morocco is about 15 miles, on a clear day you can see the Rif mountains in Morocco... if you are elevated at all, you can see the beaches and houes of Morocco.
A bridge or tunnel is not THAT rediculous, though given the fact that it's open ocean, and all that implies, it's no easy task.
From a moroccan who has resided 4 years in Spain: (Score:5, Interesting)
It goes without saying That Morocco also imports from those countries quite a bit. Some more traffic right there.
Morocco is also a touristic destination. (And I am shamelessly plugging it when I say: Go visit! I swear you'll like it. Really
And last but not least, It is also a hub between Europe and Africa so part of many african countries' exports and imports also go through Morocco.
Anyways, My point is that there is PLENTY of traffic taking place between Spain and Morocco and that a tunnel or a bridge linking the two countries DOES make plenty of economic sense. As the article pointed out, talks about this have been going on for decades now and it is actually surprising this has not happened sooner (taking into account that The distance between Tangiers and Algeciras is a measly 10 miles).
And for those unfamiliar with the territorial "spats" between Morocco and Spain, it goes something like this:
A few hundred years ago, Spain conquered a couple of northern moroccan cities (sebta and imlilia a.k.a ceuta and melilla). They have been spanish ever since but Morocco still officially wants them returned (The truth is no moroccan I've ever known cares about that.) They are tax-free zones and a LOT of cheap contraband stuff (from eletronics to candy) comes from them. My first playstation most probably came from there
The Western Sahara is a different issue. Spain was ocuppying it during the days of european colonization and it was taken back about 3 decades ago at the end of a "million men" peaceful march. Since then, Spain has been trying to make it an independant country so that they could fish within it's territorial waters for cheap. Now THAT is a very touchy subject for your average moroccan. You know..pride, territorial integrity, yadda yadda. The government has been stalling a referendum supposed to take place there and giving incentives to Moroccans to relocate there in hopes of skewing a future vote.
Back to the topic. I'm a bit disappointed that the tunnel is going to be trains only. I was actually hoping for something that allows cars and trucks to travel through. I guess the ferry businesses lobbied against it to avoid certain bankruptcy.
Unintended Consequences (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd think a link from Europe to Africa will be very severely subject to this problem.
Reference (Score:3, Informative)
The camp that was set up near the Chunnel, Sangatte, got closed by the French authorities earlier year, as an attempt to placate the English. They Brits contended (pretty accurately) that it was being used as a base for immigration. People would live there
Re:Unintended Consequences (Score:2)
The best comparison is the air travel experience. One buys a ticket in advance, provides immigration documents before boarding.
I suppose it would be fair to expect that there might be a problem of transient and migrant people camped outside station who can't ge
Re:Unintended Consequences (Score:3, Informative)
What about the refugees? (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, does anyone know how the depth of this tunnel would compare to that of the Chunnel?
Take the ling way home! (Score:2, Funny)
I think it would be borring as hell (Thank Jeebus for the GBA). Although you wouldn't use it for commuting, going the whole way round ABOVE the ground would qualify as interesting.
NYCLondon (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah right (Score:5, Interesting)
What are the social results of this? (Score:3, Insightful)
But, have they considered the social impact of this?
I mean isn't the EU having a real tough time dealing with asylum seekers and integrating Muslims into their culture? Look at the French "no head scarves" ban, as an example. While this would make tourism to North Africa easier and improve the economies of those countries, is the EU ready to handle allowing more people (and the percentage of them that will either be illegal immigrants or asylum seekers) to come into the EU? I doubt it. The EU keeps Turkey out of the EU, in large part because Turkey is a Muslim country, and therefore not European enough (despite removing all references to Christianity from the now failed EU Constitution). Also, with the huge AIDS crisis in Africa, will the increase in movement mean an increase in European AIDS cases?
These are all problems humanity should solve, but being human we aren't going to solve them.
{exasperated_sigh} You know, technology would work a lot better if we could just keeps the humans out of the equation. {/exasperated_sigh}
Holy Shit! Are you serious? (Score:5, Informative)
The EU keeps Turkey out of the EU, in large part because Turkey is a Muslim country...
Actually, it has much more to do with Turkey's incredibly poor record on human rights. A few years ago during the Danish Presidency, the European Council issued a set of requirements called the Coppenhagen Criteria, which basically made up a laundry list of minor atrocities perpetrated/ignored by the Turkish government that would have to be resolved before the country was considered for EU membership.
It's really easy to make blanket statements about the European community's supposed "intolerance" for the Islamic minority, but the criticism is far from water tight. For example, the mentioned "head scarf" policy, which is being discussed in terms of its enforcement in state-run public schools, also forbids the wearing of "obvious" religious symbols like skull caps and large crucifixes.
Many Africans enter Spain legitimately - jumping through all the necessary hoops. This in itself is not problematic. The trouble starts when their work Visas start to expire and they realize that the EU's uber-flimsy border control allows them to leave Spain and bounce around other countries in continental Europe almost indefinitely. The proposed rail link would have little or no impact on this problem because it deals with a different set of borders.
Re:What are the social results of this? (Score:3, Informative)
No head scarves in State schools. No religion whatsoever in the Republic's schools. The French do not really have the same approach as the US when it comes to religion, or to schools - and even less so when it pertains to both ! Essentially, France initiated free, mandatory, secular education in part to counter the influence of the Catholic church, which used to be the major educational institution at the time (i.e. end of the 19th century).
The deba
There is no comparison to this tunnel (Score:5, Informative)
The deepest tunnel currently is in Japan and is 100m below a 140m channel. Engineering a tunnel 240m down is seriously non-trivial, and Japan is seriously hooked-in when it comes to engineering. Spain and Morocco, really have no hope of pulling this off without outsourcing the whole deal.
The tunnel would need to be 300m + 100m below sea level (1/4 mile). That depth presents numerous difficulties with removing seep water, air density, and a host of other things. The geology is not nearly as receptive to a tunnel as it was for the chunnel engineers and they'll find that it's much, much more difficult cutting through than the chalk that is present beneath the English Channel.
This is easily an order of magnitude more difficult to build than the chunnel was. I'd be surprised if it's ever built.
Re:There is no comparison to this tunnel (Score:3, Insightful)
The deepest tunnel currently is in Japan and is 100m below a 140m channel. Engineering a tunnel 240m down is seriously non-trivial, and Japan is seriously hooked-in when it comes to engineering. Spain and Morocco, really have no hope of pulling this off without outsourcing the whole deal.
From the spanish POV: Well, we have no experience in building tunnels under the sea, but we have a lot of experience in bulding them "under the mountain". Madrid is sorrounded by mountains and is still connected by high
Not impossible - not even that difficult (Score:3, Informative)
This scenario... (Score:5, Funny)
What about the Track Gauge?? (Score:5, Informative)
There are some trains that can shift gauge, but most railway engineers think that's asking for trouble.
Another issue is loading gauge (essentially how big the cross section of the train can be and not create problems). The UK has a really tight loading gauge and the Chunnel has a HUGE loading gauge.
Re:What about the Track Gauge?? (Score:5, Informative)
Another link in the Great Global Highway... (Score:4, Informative)
As most of this is simply land routes, when are we gonna start the Siberia-Alaska [gr8st8.com] route???
I know there's more to be considered...the extreme cold is one...the other major problem is that the area under consideration is geologically active. Not good for a tunnel...the other problem is that a portion of the "best route" is a protected wild life reserve.
The only problem is that this (like free trade zones) will not be good for the US economy...
The problem is that there are no big cities nearby (Score:5, Insightful)
How on Earth could it ever be profitable to connect Spain and Morocco? It's impossible. Madrid is the only city in Spain that could rival London, Paris or Brussels. And it already takes 6 hours to get from Madrid to the proposed tunnel! And then, there is no large business city on the other side. No business traveler will be taking the train. The plane will always be preferred on such distances.
Am I making sense? Had to work throughout the night.
Wow... what an insight from /. readers... (Score:5, Insightful)
Strangely enough, there does not seem to be so many european posts about that subject, that is truly interesting.
For my fellow globalized-citizens from America, two things :
- Oh no, those fucking africans are going to invade Europe, because there will be no more control over immigration. Maybe you are not aware of it, but we have something called in here the European Union. And that means that England and France are virtually borderless for the transportation of people. This is not because you red it in the press that the train project will be the same. Why ? Because Morocco is not part of the European Union. It is only applying for a "special relationship". Thus, one can imagine that controls there will be tight, very tight. Spain has been sailing a tight ship [wsws.org] so far.
- What happens if an islamist/terrorist is plantin a bomb out there ?Stop being so neurotic about that. People with dark skin don't have bombs in their suitcases. Only people with mad minds have bombs in their suitcases. Morocco suffered a terrorist attack ; Bali suffered a terrorist attack. Don't you have the slightest impression than terrorists are focusing on the shifting of Islam from the inside ? No ? Think about it. There will be no more risk for a bomb here than in every other place in the world.
What's interesting here is how spain is changing its mind about morocco. After all the fud about the Turah island, this is one more step forward to enhance the relationship between Spain and Morocco. It a step for solving the immigration problem, since this is a path to rationalize the constant flux of immigrants coming to Europe from Spain. It is a step for integrating North Africa into Europe. It is a step for making the Arab people understand that they are *not* rejected. Etc.Tough there have been some funny jokes (I loved the thread about grammar/spelling), people should speak more quietly about issues that they don't know anything about.
Regards,
Jdif
Transportation Networks (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you have the slightest idea how much shorter the trip from Europe to Africa will be? Imagine Holland for example, which exports wheat to African countries in many situations. Their cheapest way to travel is of course by road, but too time consuming and it needs a trip through Continental Europe, bosphorus (Turkey, which they don't like at all), then Syria, Libanon, Israel, Egypt, etc. Now we get a direct link from Spain to Marocco.
Here is my prediction on how things will go, if this actually is successful.
1. Marocco and Spain will get rich from customs and the rest of the two continents will depend heavily on them for trade routes.
2. The English shipping industry will loose considerable amounts of money (they already did with the England/France tunnel).
3. Marocco will once again gain political influence in Africa, and will of course probably win over Western Sahara (there's been a disbute there for a long time, in case you didn't know).
4. Someone will figure out a way to involve Linux in this, eventhough Microsoft advertisements will fill the tunnel.
In case anyone wants to know more about the geography of transportation, a good intro is located at: http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/ [hofstra.edu]
Alaska to siberia rail (Score:5, Informative)
It would be a cool project though.
Vaporware Tunnel (Score:5, Interesting)
Believe it or not, but this is actually possible. Spain might not be any more the country many of you thought it was. Civil engineering in Spain and the rest of Europe is pretty advanced these days, as far as huge tunnels are concerned. Just look at Madrid's Metro and its spectacular growth here: http://www.metropla.net/eu/mad/metrosur.htm [metropla.net]. The Line 12 was put in service in just 3+ years, and spans 40+ kilometres of underground tracks and stations. Look at the 27 kilometre high speed rail double tunnel currently being built beneath the Sierra de Guadarrama, a granitic mountain range 2500 metres high (http://www.geodata.it/english/progetti/gallunghe
However, having said this, I don't believe we will actually see this happen in our lifetimes. First of all, 27e6 euros (30e6 $) aren't enough even for preliminary studies of such a complex undertaking. The current Spanish government is extremely interested in infrastructure and development work if and only if two or more of the following apply: a) political gains are to be obtained, b) civil engineering firms tycoons line up their pockets even more and c) the european union foots a significant percentage of the bills.
And then comes Morocco, a developing country en route to democracy. Morocco has comparatively few transportation infrastructures deployed: around 1000 km of electrified, standard gauge railways. You simply don't build a tunnel to nowhere, unless Spain and the EU are strongly commited to finance development works there (and they currently aren't, and most likely won't be in a foreseeable future, even though it might be a hell of a good idea to even out differences and further good neighbour relationships in the Mediterranean area).
Lastly, governments of Spain and Morocco are at odds over several issues, the least important of which are the ones that got more attention in previous comments: territorial disputes and terrorism. The main troubles between Morocco and Spain (and the rest of EU) are immigration and commerce, and both of them receive a harsh treatment by the Spanish government. No compromises will be agreed upon unless forced by a third party, just because such an attitude improves the outlook of Aznar and his cabinet among the population right wing.
So, unfortunately, I believe this tunnel is just vapor, and will dissipate sooner or later depending on the result of the ongoing UN-sponsored Western Sahara negotiations...
Ivan
Spanish railways (Score:3, Informative)
I am not very much confident in the success of this project... Spanish railway system is horrible.
The most recent example is Madrid-Lleida High Speed Railway. It was supposed to "fly" at 350 Km/hour, and hardly ever goes over 200 Km/hour.
Re:Tax Dollars at Work (Score:2, Funny)
Space Elevator 1 [slashdot.org]
Space Elevator 2 [slashdot.org]
Space Elevator 3 [slashdot.org]
nothing on big hole to from us to china...
Re:Why not cars? (Score:2, Insightful)
-B
Re:Why not cars? (Score:4, Informative)
Subways are better. BART's decent, but they'll probably never make it down to the South Bay...
As for "real" trains, all we've got is Amtrak. When I was in school, I thought about taking the train from Santa Barbara back home to San Jose. Thats about a 300 mile drive. Driving typically takes about 4-4.5 hours. The train takes (literally, I just looked it up) EIGHT HOURS and costs $82. I get 30mpg in my car so I can make the drive in about half the time and for half the cost. Hell I could *fly* to LA for about that and be there in 2 hours.
It really sucks, since I'd be totally willing to take trains to work or down to LA if they could ever manage to match a car for cost and speed...
Re:Why not cars? (Score:5, Interesting)
This is going to be a 39km tunnel and if you have an accident in the middle then you have problems getting emergency services in and other people out. The other people tend not to react all that sensibly either when they see flames and realise thay are 15km from an exit.
Re:Why not a closer point? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Why not a closer point? (Score:4, Informative)
The Chunnel's average depth under the seafloor is 40m, dropping that distance at a 2% grade takes 2km of rundown on each end... and that's not counting the 100m or so of ocean you have to dip under.
Trains really don't do well on steep grades-- inefficient as hell compared to nice shallow glides, although this is less of a problem on pure-electric trains that don't have to worry about keeping their diesel generators running in an efficient RPM-range.
So, the shortest crossing point doesn't necessarily correspond to the shortest required tunnel, depending on the contours of the seafloor/coasts and the various rock formations around.
Gibraltar is also a hell of a lot funkier from an engineering perspective. The English Channel averages only about 100m deep, while the Strait of Gibraltar appears to be significantly more irregular, with bits running to about ~300m deep from what I can find on the net.