India Becoming a Major Hub for Western Job Seekers 830
MaximusTheGreat writes: "IHT and Financial Express report that many qualified Western professionals are moving to India for jobs. Two of the most common reasons mentioned are adding the Indian experience to the CV and search of better opportunities in a booming Indian economy. According to a Mumbai based head hunting firm, "A lot of the highly qualified talent has traditionally been mobile and attracted to centers of excellence globally. This was true of the US in the early 80s when top flight talent from India migrated in search of better opportunities. Today, the same is happening to economies such as India and China" This should also bust the myth that foreigners are not allowed work in India."
Outsourced (Score:4, Funny)
Uh oh . . . (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Uh oh . . . (Score:5, Funny)
Just curious, is there any outcome to any situation that will not cause mass hysteria among the
People come to the US looking for jobs..PANIC!!!! People leave the US looking for jobs...PANIC!!! President tries to solve this problem by trying to kill all those annoying foreigners...PANIC!!!
Jeez, I feel for you people
Re:Uh oh . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Uh oh . . . (Score:2)
Plus, for Xmas, I can have my parents send $500 instead of buying a gift. I'd live like a king for a while on that type of dough.
Not to mention, Indian women are beautiful.
Re:Uh oh . . . (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Uh oh . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
You can sleep well at night knowing if you are a crack addict the government will pay your way through rehab
this is obviously a Bad Idea. it should be the goal of the government to ensure there are as many untreated crack heads roaming around the streets as possible.
you are going to pay for society's drug problems one way or another. you can either pony up some tax to get crack heads off the street, into rehab and turn them into productive citizens... or you can ignore the problem and pay in lost economic productivity, increased policing costs and in one lump cash payment when that untreated crack head sticks you up for a fix.
We keep throwing away American tax dollars at foreign nations only to be the most hated country in the world
are you counting the cost of cluster bombs as a foreign aid expense?
seriously. do you know who the single biggest recipient of us foreign aid is? israel. thirty per cent of foreign aid goes to that nation - and they are not you enemy.
of course, the us doesn't hand out foreign aid for free. packages often come with spending restrictions that are geared towards ingratiating the recipient country to the donor and then there are saps - structural adjustment policies - whereby aid is conditional upon economic reforms in the recipient country that are beneficial to the us corporate sector.
hint: learn something about how foreign aid works and what it does before commenting on it.
They should raise their nations taxes by several billion a year and take over babbysiting the rest of the world then
all the countries of the world that take part in un peacekeeping missions find your suggestion ludicrous and insulting.
Re:Uh oh . . . (Score:5, Interesting)
26.3%
which is more than 16 but still way less than 30... and i live in canada! where we have things like single payer health care and government subsidies for just about everything...
nothing personal, but it sounds like you americans are getting ripped off! more tax, less service... sheesh.
Re:Uh oh . . . (Score:3, Informative)
Americans are getting ripped off... 15% wage taxes go striaght to Washington, D.C., for Social Security and Medicare (and that's not even the other income taxes, yet!). They tell you that your employer pays half and you pay half, but that's just a political game and anyone who has read an Econ 101 book knows it.
What are the chances that money actually comes bac
Re:Uh oh . . . (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Uh oh . . . (Score:5, Interesting)
(this doesn't include 401K, etc., just federal, state, city, medicare, blah blah blah blah, and you end up with very little of the actual `money').
Re:Uh oh . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
er. reduced from what? last year? last century? i am talking about police protection levels lower than they are currently - hence the word "reduced". you are talking about... i'm not sure what.
subsidized education -- Subsidized by whom?
it's been a long time since i've been to the states... do they have cover charges for high school now?
general infrastructure -- The roads in SIlicon Valley are collapsing.
the roads in silicon valley exist. were they created on the sixth day by god?
unemployment and old age security -- Social Security is approaching insolvency.
and paying less tax will help this... how? social security exists. is this another "sixth day" creation? nope. taxes, my lad.
public safety (ie fda inspections) -- We had 9/11 and now mad cow. That's the kind of 'saftey' we get for our 50%.
thanks for bringing up mad cow. thanks to your tax dollars, the infected beef was caught at the distribution level and prevented from ever getting to market. is less tax worth dying of vCJD?
100% of all taxes collected in the U.S. go to pay the interest on the debt
well, looking at the wikipedia page [wikipedia.org] on the the us national debt, i notice that it says "47% of personal income taxes" go to servicing the debt. no corporate taxes, no sales taxes, no "sin" taxes - just personal income taxes, and less than half at that.
now, that's still a huge debt-servicing cost, but it isn't, as you claim, "100% of all taxes collected in the U.S.".
Ha ha. Man are you the one who is ignorant:
back at you pal.
Exciting (Score:5, Interesting)
Depending on what sort of world you want, I guess.
Re:Exciting (Score:3, Funny)
Livin' on the bleeding edge of technology!
Re:Exciting (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Exciting (Score:2, Insightful)
As opposed to the US, hated by 2/3 of the world's population, & obvious target # 1 for more minor excitements like, um, 9/11..
Re:Exciting (Score:5, Insightful)
Way to fucking rewrite history. Britain, Frace, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Norway and others were all actively at war with Germany way before the US got reluctantly dragged into the war in Europe. Britain, Australia and New Zealand also fought against Japan in Asia and the Pacific Rim.
Please, pick up a book or something every once in a while. The world doesn't revolve around the US.
Re:Exciting (Score:2)
Just because there are nukes in the neighborhood it does not mean they could get 'nuked anytime'.
India has clearly told Pakistan: they can take a strike or two, but Pakistan will be wiped off the face of the earth if they pull anything like this. YAD (Your Assured Destruction), anyone? :)
Re:Exciting (Score:4, Insightful)
This is exactly the problem w/ free trade. Conservatives want it for obvious reasons and progressives want it since they mistakenly believe it will bring up the standards of living in the target countries. Although it does (bring up the std of living), it does so through achieving equilibrium. The problem with that is to achieve equilibrium, two sides need to meet in the middle and that means decrease in the std of living for the higher income group. To prevent this it requires a smart plan, one which is sorely lacking in this case. In the absence of this plan, the only people who benefit from free trade are the really rich as they income gap increases.
The facts bear out the assertion that the rich are benefitting from this arrangement since both the US and Mexico have seen a shrinking of their middle class and a growth in the income gap between top and bottom. Also, in the absence of a smart plan for implementing free trade, it allows the corporations to continue to support corrupt regimes with total impunity, with no control by any authority.
Welcome to the new world...
Re:Exciting (Score:2)
That's the theory anyway. As you point out, in practise it doesn't seem to be working out quite so neatly. The rich now control a greater % of the worlds absolute wealth than in the past, and this is only increasing. I have seen several times mentioned that the a
Re:Exciting (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Exciting (Score:2)
Re:Exciting (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Exciting (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't see a problem with that. Some people (us) have been getting more than their fair share for a while. We should consider ourselves lucky to have had such good fortune for so long. It's not our right.
To prevent this it requires a smart plan, one which is sorely lacking in this case.
No, it requires a very simple plan: improve the average standard of living of the globe quickly enough so that it compensates for the decrease resulting from equillibration. Anything else wouldn't be a "plan", it would be a fraud.
Of course, free trade or not, the Western lifestyle will have to change: it simply isn't sustainable, and it can't be scaled up to the rest of the world. In particular, Americans will need to live in smaller, more energy-efficient houses, take public transportation, buy more energy efficient cars, recycle more, etc.
The facts bear out the assertion that the rich are benefitting from this arrangement since both the US and Mexico have seen a shrinking of their middle class and a growth in the income gap between top and bottom. Also, in the absence of a smart plan for implementing free trade, it allows the corporations to continue to support corrupt regimes with total impunity, with no control by any authority.
The US middle class has lots of serious, self-created problems; don't blame Mexico or free trade for that.
Re:Exciting (Score:5, Insightful)
Free trade is just bringing together those who have something to sell - the Indian programmers - and those who want to buy - American firms needing software written. I don't see any reason for a third group to whine about this just because they were previously able to get away with charging more.
This is especially hypocritical on a site such as Slashdot, where readers depend on a steady supply of computer hardware often built in countries with lower wages than the West. In stories about video cards or RAM I don't think I have _ever_ seen any complaint about free trade reducing the price of the hardware and the lost job opportunties for Americans caused by building it in the Far East. Or think of the constant RIAA stories - stop trying to get in the way of progress, stop trying to prop up a failing business model, you don't automatically have the right to keep on getting money just because you did in the past. I know this is partly the fallacy of assuming Slashdot readers speak with one voice, but it's still worth noting.
India and Open Source (Score:3, Funny)
Re:India and Open Source (Score:3, Funny)
To stop bad laws.
An antilaw if you will.
They will come in card form.
Outsourcing to India? (Score:4, Funny)
Indians are by nature better programmers. For one, they never have to deal with type casting erros -- they never forget to caste!
Isn't this what "mobile workforce" means? ;) (Score:5, Funny)
Someone told someone whose job was outsourced to "think outside the box", and look what happened.
Suprised. (Score:5, Insightful)
Myth busting (Score:3, Insightful)
If you don't fancy working in India, just pick somewhere else with a lower cost of living than the US, and set up shop there. You could try New Zealand or Australia - both fairly western countries with a notably lower cost of living (depending on where you go) than the US. Still not as low as India, but then it would provide less of a language barrier (depending on exactly how uninterpretable you consider the austrialian accent), which many here claim is a significant problem with Indian outsourcing.
So, why not set up your own outsourcing company?
Jedidiah
First I'd heard of the Myth.... (Score:2)
I've had a couple of friends go to work in India from the UK in the last couple of years and their work visas and in one case naturalisation was all worked out in a timely manner.
Does this myth only pertain to the United States perhaps?
I can see that moving to work in India could have some instant financial benefits in that the cost of living (and therefore making a home) in India is presumably less than weste
Re:First I'd heard of the Myth.... (Score:2, Insightful)
I can see people working in India for very short periods of time, but moving from a 1st world nation to a 2nd or 3rd world nation (at least in terms of wages) does not have the same benefits as the reverse situation does.
For now, I take articles like this as an
You can also try different places in the US (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Myth busting (Score:4, Insightful)
Canada requires more than US$30,000 in cash and you must be highly qualified in a professional field to move. Australia and New Zealand last I checked not only require that, but they require an existing job offer to enter--and you are forbidden from changing visa status without returning home. Not many people will be recruited ahead of time. Sure, you can enter as a university student to gain contacts, but how many unemployed computer programmers have enough to pay up front for a AU/NZ degree AND all their living expenses for three years PLUS two return air tickets and six more months living expense so you can go home while the residency visa is granted, at which point you will need a full years' contingency fund that will be checked on arrival or adios muchachos--assuming you haven't been found to break the employment restriction, which in the case of Australia will bar you from ever returning again? Oh, IT'S SOOOO BLOODY EASY. Right.
The fact is, most countries are practically impossible to emmigrate to--especially commonwealth countries from anywhere but another commonwealth country and especially Australia when your departure country is the United States because too many of us have tried to change visa status while in Australia (read: illegal employment). If you're already out of work, the financial restrictions make it a complete fantasy. If you're not out of work, it's such an enormous gamble, why would you try unless you truly wanted to permanently move to the country in question for reasons other than immediate employment?
The H1-B program in the United States was not exactly par for the international course. We let in well over 600,000 people on H1-B in five years. Once I see numbers like India granting over one million residency and employment visas PER YEAR (a roughly equal proportion), I'll buy this argument that the lack of reciprocity is a myth. The same goes for Indian academics. Bangalore University has TWO SEATS per department available for international students--and they have a quarter million students. My university had less than five thousand students and we had that many seats--just for Brazil.
Myth my ass. I would _love_ to go work in a number of countries, not all of them on the economic level of Australia. However, in many countries it often isn't possible at any price--just try to get a work visa for South Africa, for instance. Oh sure, you can get a long-term residency permit if you've got $100,000 in the bank, but you won't be able to seek employment without risking deportation. Most countries are very protective of their labor markets and aren't about to dilute them with Americans who they see as not needing the work nearly as badly. This translates to a cynical lack of reciprocity that basically boils down to "you're American, ergo you're rich, ergo you don't need to take our jobs." Of course, the same voices seem to think we should give up our jobs for them when they show up at our doors.
Re:Myth busting (Score:4, Insightful)
I didn't say it was easy - I said it was possible. I think you somewhat overrate the difficulty of emigrating to NZ or Australia - no, it is not trivial, but it is far from impossible, especially if you are skilled and have some cash reserves. It is FAR easier than emigrating to the US from NZ or Australia.
The fact is, most countries are practically impossible to emmigrate to--especially commonwealth countries from anywhere but another commonwealth country and especially Australia when your departure country is the United States because too many of us have tried to change visa status while in Australia (read: illegal employment). If you're already out of work, the financial restrictions make it a complete fantasy. If you're not out of work, it's such an enormous gamble, why would you try unless you truly wanted to permanently move to the country in question for reasons other than immediate employment?
Let's be honest, the US is generally regarded to be the most anally retentive country in the world when it comes to immigration. Consider all those people stuck in green card lotteries. Comparatively Commonwealth countries are reasonably easy going. They expect you to have work lined up, or a high liklehood of finding work, but that's not at all unreasonable. The plan is not to just try and move there - Start looking for work there, apply for every programming job going in your target country(ies), and once you have a job offer your odds of getting visas etc. skyrocket.
I know several people who have successfully emigrated to NZ or Australia, it is nowhere near as difficult as you seem to imply (that is, you imply that it is effectively impossible - which it most definitely is NOT).
Jedidiah.
Re:Myth busting (Score:4, Interesting)
You can come to the United States without a long term visa, THEN find work, THEN get your visa status changed. That's pretty NON-anally retentive. Do that in Australia and not only will you find yourself back home, you can never return.
It is the fact that we are so ridiculously permissive and the rest of the world still cries that we're "generally regarded to be the most anally retentive country in the world when it comes to immigration" that pisses us off because practically nowhere else is so open.
Go try to get yourself German citizenship and get back to me on how restrictive the United States is.
Re:Myth busting (Score:4, Interesting)
Immigration is difficult anywhere, but to claim that the United States is "the most anally retentive," especially compared to Australia and New Zealand, is just ridiculous. For Christ's sake, we've done blanket amnesties for illegal aliens. Sort of "right, lost track of all of you, can't be bothered, you're legal now." We're about to do it again this year. Oh, how anally retentive.
Re:Myth busting (Score:5, Informative)
Now, it wasn't a cake walk, but it was FAR from difficult. I work with a 20-year-old American that's here same as me, so it's not like I'm a special case. No huge sums of work experince and cash are required.
Re:Myth busting (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Myth busting (Score:4, Informative)
Unnecessary hype (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Unnecessary hype (Score:3, Informative)
Can't Hurt (Score:5, Insightful)
HOW TO GET H1B FOR INDIA? (Score:2)
Re:HOW TO GET H1B FOR INDIA? (Score:5, Funny)
Yes. English. This could prove a significant barrier to Americans.
KFG
India: Foreigner workers welcome* (Score:3, Informative)
(Source: HotJobs.com)
Re:India: Foreigner workers welcome* (Score:3)
Re:How does 50%+ income tax rub ya? (Score:4, Interesting)
In many of those countries the result is less of a divide between rich and poor... most people are distinctly middle class, which is almost the only class. And their government takes care of everyone nicely and provides for its citizens. It's big government without being overbearing and infringing on its citizens liberties. I personally think countries like Denmark are role models for the rest of the world these days.
unlikely (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:unlikely (Score:2)
You mean unlike, say, the hundreds of thousands of Indians who have moved to the United States to become American citizens, raise American children, and die on American soil? We think nothing of people forsaking their homelands to move to the United States. We created this system, and we don't have the right to complain when people apply our own rules to us.
Re:unlikely (Score:3, Insightful)
a) A guy with extensive experience of Indian culture and business environment, has a working knowlwedge of Hindi (or other major Indian languages), and has shown the drive and independence to relocate to a differenct continent in the first place; or
b) A guy who knows how to handle the deep fryer at McDonalds?
Re:unlikely (Score:3, Insightful)
EE Majors still worth anything? (Score:5, Interesting)
Are Electrical Engineers having any similar problems with jobs being outsourced?
Which degree should I get?
Re:EE Majors still worth anything? (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps you could visit a school you're interested in and see whether a lot of Indians and Chinese are in the program you're considering. If so, it's a good bet those countries are taking interest in the field. To me it seems that China, at least, is coming on strong in all technical fields, if a few years behind India in computer programming.
As a datapoint, apparently Intel's Pentium-M chip (the b
Re:EE Majors still worth anything? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:EE Majors still worth anything? (Score:2, Insightful)
If you
Re:EE Majors still worth anything? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:EE Majors still worth anything? (Score:3, Insightful)
Look, if you have brains and dedication and confidence in your capabilities, study whatever you want. Get the philosophy degree, have fun, and make sure that you're keeping an eye on something to make money with too. There's plenty of opportunity for part-time work in fields that will make money, and by trying lots of them out you will probably find one that captures your interest abou
Re:EE Majors still worth anything? (Score:3, Informative)
Learn all you can. Then learn plumbing. afer thet, start your own plumbing business. If you still want to program, do some work on OS.
If I had been spending the last 10 years as a plumber, I would be making at least twice what I currently make as a software developer.
The hour would be better, and I'd get to go to kick ass comventions in Vegas.
Believe me, these conventions are far superiour then comdex. Unles you actully go to comdex to learn about what might just be the next trend(but probably isn
Re:EE Majors still worth anything? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's Rubic's Cube. Rubic was the name of the man who invented it.
Sorry about your misfortune. I had a similar one in the early nineties when the cold war ended just in time to eliminate almost all demand for my major in Aerospace Engineering. However I disagree with your recommendation that people don't enter EE or CS. If the current lack of demand causes this country to stop producing graduates in those programs then there could never ever be an upswing here in that industry. The manpower wouldn't exist to even try to compete with China and India.
People should study whatever they are interested in and excel at. If that is CS then good for them. We will need them in the future. Keep in mind that all new technologies will intersect with computer technology. If someone invented a transporter or a holodeck tomorrow, you can be damn sure that it would be controlled by computers. Want to outsource those too?
And cheer up, since the economy is starting to warm up again and the H1B visas have dropped back to their pre-2k levels, you may get a chance to use that fancy degree of yours before long.
But is India WillingTo Have Them? (Score:5, Interesting)
Indian Culture is much different from the American one. Such migration might not help at all.. considering that the Americans will have tough time adjusting to the culture in the first place. Moreover, given India is such a big country, many companies would rather do with a talented Indian who understands the work culture and how businesses are run rather than a foreigner.
Re:But is India WillingTo Have Them? (Score:5, Insightful)
There would certainly be an advantage for an Indian company that does business with an American company to have Americans on the inside schooling them on how things work.
yarrr, girl! (Score:2)
I think "work culture" is a universal - get to work!
As for the software culture, you have to serve your market. You can bet your bottom dollar that an Indian firm that specializes in US software is going to be happy to have US culture on board.
Company politics can play a role too and can be used as a quick quality guide. A company writing really bad code for Micro
PR Puff piece. (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah but (Score:3, Insightful)
I know that's against the principles of free trade and all, but we invented this technology, we are the ones who built it, we supported it, and now the corporations we built it for are selling our jobs for pennies on the dollar to third world countries.
What I'm doing is changing my field, after around 14 years, because the way technical people in this country have been treated is utterly reprehensible.
Re:Yeah but (Score:3, Interesting)
I do programming for a living, and quite honestly, most anyone with the proper training can do most common programming tasks. There certainly are those gifted, to
Slashdot commune in India? (Score:5, Funny)
We start a hippie commune in India, we would be self sufficient in terms of agriculture and utlities, living by LGPL (we do need to be able to make a living) ideals, religion tolerant, and we could try and land a lot of the US outsoursed contracts...
Re:Slashdot commune in India? (Score:3, Interesting)
No, seriously!
A lot of my coder friends have actually expressed similar sentiment.
Just don't know how to do it. That's all..!
It's no H1B.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, you may have a job. But you have to reconcile yourself to a lower quality of life in India. It may cost less to live there, but at the same time, there are a few things that are taken for granted in the West, which aren't as easy to get there. The standards for judging things are far different from life in the West.
PhD and MSc workers are relatively thick on the ground there, especially in Engineering disciplines. The way things are in India, a lot of people (yes, I have many indian friends) want to move out due to competition from their peers, and difficulty in finding jobs. With this in mind, it's easy to understand why one article openly states that a main reason for hiring Europeans is to "represent their interests" in the home country.
When you go work in India, you may save some cash, for sure.. but if you don't plan on living there for the rest of your life, when you come back to your own country, you will find that the savings don't necessarily translate to much in your local currency.
Does all this sound like I am against people moving to India ? not at all. Just that, as the title of my post suggests, I doubt we're ever going to see a vast inrush of Europeans/Americans working in India at low level positions. Indian companies may be savvy enough to snap up a few qualified and experienced personnel, but for the greater majority of those out of work, India isn't the answer. There is a reason why there are STILL so many Indian workers in Silicon Valley and other technology hubs.
Re:It's no H1B.. (Score:2, Funny)
here are a few things that are taken for granted in the West, which aren't as easy to get there.
like maybe having your parents ship you a burger in the mail once in a while
Cost of living != Standard of living (Score:3, Informative)
An economist could explain it better, but to me it seems that cost of living and standard of living aren't directly correlated. (I know it's not exactly what you're saying, but it's worth adding.) Lower quality of living may be true for India, but it isn
not necessarily a good idea. (Score:5, Insightful)
Last I heard India is still a developing country in many aspects. How may are prepared to share the road with not only automobiles and pedestrians but elephants, sacred bovines, and pack animals which all produce fair shares of manure? Depending on where in india one might relocate to, problems with roaming bands of monkeys and the ocassional wild tiger, rare as they are, would still be unsettling for one who only see beasts in zoos.
Though China has come a long way from the 60s and 70's, My parents still carry lasting scars from the exesses of the Cultural Revolution. There are still many things that should/could not be addressed in public without considerable risks to the speaker and the listeners. Despite the incredable westernization/commercialization of the general population, China is still very ethnocentric in some regards. In short, American $$$$$ == good, dragonboats, home-grown rockets & national astronauts == better. I'm optimistic about the direction China is headed but I highly doubt it is a suitable place for a western job seeker unless (s)he is willing to make considerable lifestyle and mental adjustments.
just my 2 cents.
Re:not necessarily a good idea. (Score:2, Insightful)
And dude, China is communist. India is not. There's a big difference.
Just my 2 rupees.
Re:not necessarily a good idea. (Score:3, Insightful)
But, puhleese, don't spout ignorant statements about India like roaming tigers on streets in cities.
Another thing to remember is that India already is a mixed race society, with all shades of the color variations and features from north to south. So, being a puralistic democracy who does not suppress its citizens, are used to living with "different" looking people, free press etc. westereners will ha
Re:not necessarily a good idea. (Score:3, Interesting)
The can be surprising cultural differences even between western countries.
I was stunded by the number of beggers in the US when I worked there, in San Francisco at least.
That and the feet police, in NZ its quite common to strop about in bearfeet. I all most got arrested in a mall because I wasn't wearing shoes.
Re:not necessarily a good idea. (Score:5, Insightful)
I am not saying, there won't be any problems in relocation, but rather that some of them may be due to stereotypes you have developed(in your case, seeing a wild tiger) and some could be ignored (seeing cows all around), if your job is challenging or satisfactory enough and you could manage to have a decent lifestyle.
Some links:
Myths about Indian Business women [indiatimes.com]
Outside execs who have succeeded in India [indiatimes.com]
Re:not necessarily a good idea. (Score:4, Interesting)
If you are a conservative, or could care less about criticizing the government, then these governments are fine. But if you say something, watch out.
Same thing with China, except multiply everything I said by 1000x.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
But wait! (Score:2)
So you move to India, taking your $40k in savings with you, and live like a king for a year or two, making $8k in salary, tops.
Then the market in India raises a bit in a few years, and competition increases, making it unfeasible to stay there any longer.
You decide to move back to the US, with your $2k in savings and... live in a cardboard box, with frequent bathroom trips to the sewer grate on the corner, and the food at the soup kitchen.
Seriously, if you move there, and live like a king, and ever want t
Re:But wait! (Score:3, Insightful)
With $40k you could live like a king for far longer than 2 years in most parts of India. In fact you can live damn well on that $8k salary.
As for coming back in a couple of years, you will have more work experience in your profession combined with multicultural and foreign experience. Very healthy things to have on your resume.
Finally, upon arriving back in the United States you will find that the standard of living will have only dropped further and the cost of living is less than when you left.
Why
The Indian jobs are for managers (Score:5, Informative)
It should be noted that the Indian jobs starting to be filled by foreigners are middle- and upper-level management jobs--not software or hardware engineers!
The question to ask is. (Score:5, Insightful)
Do we want our lives to be traded as commodities to be moved and shuffled about at the whim of the free market? I'm just going to state a few opinions here. Markets should serve people, not the other way around. When freedom of choice (in this case, where to live), is superceded by the freedom of markets we have a problem. Markets are in theory, supposed to maximize freedom. I don't see how forcing a bunch of people to travel across the world just to eat is an example of "freedom". Instead, it's the commoditizing of humanity. I'd be curious, if we were to interview these travelling workers, what their response would be if they were given a choice between working that job over in India vs America. I'd imagine that they would choose to work closer to home. Imagine if we had a choice, any at all. Imagine if democracy (in other words, allowing those who are affected most by a decision, to make that decision) were placed above capitalism. Instead, what we have is the market being rigged to serve a priveledged few, at the expense of everyone else. There is nothing "free" about being forced to transplant oneself every few years just to eat. Freedom from means nothing without freedom to.
Re: (Score:3, Flamebait)
"Stand on Zanzibar" (Score:3, Insightful)
Remarkably prophetic in many ways.
I'd recommend it in light of this thread.
Hate to break up the party... (Score:3, Insightful)
Top that with the cost of relocation, the fact that the Indian market already provides fairly ample amounts of trained labor, and the fact that as an American you are going to be at a significant disadvantage trying to work within the social framework there, and you've got a very unattractive option. Oh, and don't forget that you won't be earning enough to ever move back and not be pitifully poor.
I think using my master's degree to shill cars for a living in the States sounds a tad better.
More propoganda! (Score:5, Informative)
whois financialexpress.com displays:
Registrant:
The Indian Express Online Media Ltd (JYXCIDMQMD)
Express Towers, 2nd Floor,
Nariman Point
Mumbai, Maharashtra 400021
IN
Domain Name: FINANCIALEXPRESS.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
The Indian Express Online Media Ltd (KYYHDIAZUO) hostmaster@bombaybiz.com
Express Towers, 2nd Floor,
Nariman Point
Mumbai, Maharashtra 400021
IN
91-022-22884113 fax: 91-022-22044654
Record expires on 03-Jan-2005.
Record created on 02-Jan-1998.
Database last updated on 31-Jan-2004 23:31:58 EST.
Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.RILINFO.NET 202.138.96.2
NS2.RILINFO.NET 202.138.103.100
surely their views must be impartial!
The Rise of India? (Score:5, Informative)
For example, if one looks at the ISI Highly Cited [isihighlycited.com] website we see that researchers from Western economies still dominate research journals. Suggesting that these countries will countinue to lead the world in technological development in the near future. This of course probably means jobs for those in the industry of researching and developing technology. Just how great the desparity is, is illustrated with a few numbers:
United States - 2830 highly cited researchers
United Kingdom - 306 highly cited researchers
Australia/New Zealand - 78 highly cited researchers
Switzerland - 60 highly cited researchers
India - 8 highly cited researchers
China - 5 highly cited researchers
Also if we look at the CIA World Fact Book [cia.gov] we see Western Economies still appear to have a significantly greater GDP per capita which means there is more money to invest in industry:
United States - $36,300
Switzerland - $32,000
Australia - $26,900
United Kingdom - $25,500
China - $4,700
India - $2,600
Indeed, I can't help but feel that we're overemphasizing India. That they are really the IT sweat-shops of the 21st century and while they may be master code-monkeys the chief beneficiaries of their work will be the Western world. Who will get cheap labor and services but still carry out most of the research, design, marketing and retail. This article mentions specifically significantly reduced operating costs and 500,000 jobs moving overseas, but the latter statistic is useless unless we know how many other jobs are (or are not) going to crop up to replace them and where. My post isn't really an informed opinion on the matter, but what I hope it will do is encourage others to think critically about the situation instead of getting tied up in the tsunami of pessimistic articles posted on Slashdot.
It has to balance out eventually (Score:5, Insightful)
India is creating jobs in the US (Score:4, Interesting)
Apparently, the VA location beat out Mexico to land the factory. No joke.
Good for recent college grads (Score:3, Interesting)
As for the retirement aspect or moving back to the U.S. In a decade or two India's economy will grow big enough to match many of those around the world.
Many people think India is 3rd world, but from what I've heard about their big cities, they're pretty much exactly like our metropolitan hubs. Yeah, the rest of the country needs to catch up, but don't you think Wyoming needs to catch up the rest of the U.S. too?
Who gives a fuck about IT jobs anymore? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm switching careers to trades. It isn't that hard and most of us can work with our hands and will take twenty seconds instead of twenty minutes to calculate how much tile is needed for the bathroom walls. I've already done a few tiling projects on the side and now I'm getting my electrician's papers. Soon I'll be able to cover everything from finishing carpentry to wiring and plumbing. Pays just as well as the office job did at peak if you're willing to work hard. Last month I netted $5,000CAD (I live north of the border) which is a very healthy sum here especially that that's AFTER TAX money. And wehn was the last time you heard of a plumber being outsourced to India? That's right my friedns, when that pipe bursts in your CEO's house even the 20,000 Indians he's hired arent gonna be much use at 15,000 miles away.
So my friends, next time you hear that your job is getting shipped to India tell your manager that she can kiss your ass goodbye because it's a great opportunity to give up your (most likely) shitty job and do something useful instead. You'll be surprised how rewarding trades can be compared to an office job.
Oh and in the evening (that's right trade jobs run 9 to 5 not 8 to midnight, imagine that!) when you get home there is no reason not to fire up the computer and do some open source coding, for fun, without the stresss and aggravation of a PHB meddling with good things and making stupid suggestions. Write some great software and donate it to Open Source. Even Indians can't compete with that pricing model :-)
So my friends this is our new reality we all have to face. We all love programming but it doesn't make us money anymore. It started out as a hobby (for most of us) and now is the time it went back to being a hobby. For a living however, we must do something more lucrative that can't be outsourced by the next bunch of stuffed shirts. Like trades.
Re:Who gives a fuck about IT jobs anymore? (Score:5, Interesting)
MSBob wrote:
I agree. After 40 years of very serious software development (OS internals, languages, macro processors, protocols, device drivers, machine and peripheral emulators -- not JavaShit or Visual Barfic), I am changing careers because it seems no one wants actual, real software designers/developers anymore. So I say, "Screw 'em all!"
I got a hint of what was to come in 1990 when I moved into this house and had cable hooked up. The installer seemed too bright, too articulate. We talked. He was a degreed electronic engineer who used to design the "sleds" that give those thigh-mounted data entry devices we see being used by inventory takers their specific functions and behaviors. He quit and became a cable TV installer because of low pay, long hours, abuse and PHBs. He never looked back. In his new job he had variety every day, was outside a lot in fresh air and sunshine, was never seriously put out, and never took his job home with him.
I've never been ideologically anti-corporate, but it's now clear to me that corporate America is committing suicide. I no longer care. I'll donate the bullet or the razor or the match, however they want to put themselves out of their misery.
It's going to happen eventually (Score:5, Interesting)
Right now I'm in the middle of my first trip to the Philippines and it's been... a trip to say the least. Everything about this experience has been positive, largely because Filipinos seem, as a whole, a happy, gregarious people.
Everyone here speaks at least some English and anyone with an office job speaks exceptional English. The only place we ever stumble is on phrases and idioms. (Quite honestly English here is on average better than in the states --- McDonald's employees speak better English than they do in the US)
Food is American friendly... if you absolutely must, there's McDonalds, KFC, PizzaHut, etc. but the local food is also quite good. Markets and grocery stores are fine, and you can certainly muster American fare from what you can find there. And everything is cheap --- I ate for about $3/day last week and, last night, splurged and bought a $10 meal at a resort restaraunt.
After that I went out to one of the hottest clubs in the city and spent about $30 on cover charge, a couple drinks for myself, and a round for 15 of my coworkers. (When I say coworkers I mean "very intelligent, funny, cute, single women all under 30" we'll leave it at that.)
My advice -- don't reject the idea of moving overseas outright. Regardless if you come back ahead or not, it's going to be a great life experience and be a nice item on your resume.
Weird (Score:3, Interesting)
That definitely has me a bit concerned. I'm a programmer and I work out of Mexico, so while I can offer pretty competitive rates, I still expect to get paid well. Unfortunately the market is saturated by programmers, and I believe with time, that will change as programers continue to drop out because of job competition.
Really, my take on it, at least in the States, is that a lot of people went into software to make money. I think now that it's harder to make good money at it, the ones that are going to stick around are going to generally be the ones who really love doing it. Hopefully that will level the market out a bit.
The fact remains that some of us are quite skilled at what we do and that some people, no matter how hard they try, aren't going to be nearly as good as those of us who are in this field because we love the write software and have a natural ability with it. For the same reason, I'll never play guitar like Eddie Van Halen or paint like Van Gogh (and that's not to imply that I think I'm the Eddie Van Halen or Vincent Van Gogh of computer programming).
For most of the time I've been in this field (the last 4 years notwithstanding), most of the programmers were people that really loved it and the ratio of really good programmers to mediocre programers was fairly high. That ratio has reversed in the past few years. When it returns, I suspect the pay will get closer to what we expect as well.
Even here in Mexico, and granted, I live in one of the pricier towns in Mexico, living at Indian pay rates is simply out of the question.
Re:the burning question is... (Score:5, Funny)
but Southern India... where it gets up to 45'C...
My brain, like any normal supercomputer, functions best at low temperature.
Re:doubt it (Score:2)
Re:doubt it (Score:5, Informative)
Were you by any chance raised by wolves?
You know, what they get paid in India is relatively speaking most likely very nice amount? Purchasing parity is nice; one can live like a king there... so in some ways they'll be better off there. One can not really afford servants with programmer salary in USA; but can most definitely do that in India. It's not like they go there to starve; quite the opposite. It's even possible that the salaries are getting closer to those of, say, southern Europe ones; and trend is likely to continue. In couple of years high quartile of programmers in India earn more than low quartile in, say, mid-west.
Furthermore, the article did mention that it may be considered a good career move; working in India helps in managing teams in India, even if one works in USA (assuming there'll be managing jobs remaining in USA). So, it can also be thought of as sort of extreme internship. :-)
Re:doubt it (Score:3, Insightful)
Where the fuck do you guys get those stories from? I happen to have been born in a pretty inexpensive country (Eastern Europe). Yes some things are cheaper over there BUT my salary back home would have been an equivalent of $16,000US. A three bedroom house there costs $150,000. A new car costs $25,000. A meal in a restaurant runs up around $30. Yeah.
Re:India is not for Me (Score:3, Funny)
KFG
Re:India is not for Me (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a spice called fenugreek which is in english style curry powder and in a few different curries - it has a strong flavour and a strong smell. If you eat a lot of fenugreek the smell comes out through your skin for a few days - the usual curry won't do it, but if you grow it as sprouts you can eat a lot of the stuff because the flavour is milder (it tastes really good in a sandwich). It's a bit embarrassing smelling precisely like Keens Curry Powder fo