Swedish Carbon-Fiber Stealth Ship Runs NT 526
tiled_rainbows writes "The Guardian has an article today about the Swedish navy's new stealth warship, which they claim is the largest carbon-fiber vessel ever built. Slashdotters will be interested to learn that the ship runs Windows NT. The article says 'While the point-and-click system is popular with conscripts, the ship was fitted with a wooden ship's wheel at the insistence of senior officers. If Windows goes down, they will still be able to steer.' Which raises the question: where can I get a USB-compatible wooden ship's wheel for my computer?"
In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In other news... (Score:3, Funny)
I got your USB ships wheel right here, pal. (Score:5, Informative)
I realize you were being cutesy, but making a USB ships wheel sounds about like a one-weekend take-it-apart-and-put-it-together project, starting with a shaft-encoded driving-game controller.
The hardest part would surely be building the binnacle.
Re:I got your USB ships wheel right here, pal. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I got your USB ships wheel right here, pal. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I got your USB ships wheel right here, pal. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I got your USB ships wheel right here, pal. (Score:5, Funny)
"I said thirty degrees port, not turn on the music!"
Re:I got your USB ships wheel right here, pal. (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, the sensor doesn't need to support the wheel :-)
Skipping the driving controller, you might do better to dismantle a $2.99 optomechanical USB mouse for its optical sensor and USB interface.
Re:I got your USB ships wheel right here, pal. (Score:3)
who ever said anything about supporting the wheel on the shaft encoder? The idea I had, upon first reading the article was something like this: Picture of wheel [cursus.net]
USB? Hazza! (Score:5, Funny)
Where can I get a USB-compatible wooden ship's wheel for my computer
I doubt it's USB since NT4 doesn't support USB.. :P Probably PS2 or a Serial connector :)
Simon
Re:USB? Hazza! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:USB? Hazza! (Score:2, Interesting)
Tradition. If anything navy's love is tradition. I'm willing to be that had a lot to do with the decition to use a wooden wheel.
Re:USB? Hazza! (Score:4, Funny)
Reminds me of the old Winston Churchill quote:
"Traditions! What traditions? Rum, sodomy and the lash!"
Re:USB? Hazza! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:USB? Hazza! (Score:5, Funny)
"Traditions! What traditions? Rumsfeld, sodomy and the lash"
BSOD (Score:5, Funny)
Stealth? NT?! (Score:3, Funny)
Movie idea (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Movie idea (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Movie idea (Score:3, Informative)
"The Smart Ship program is still in development, and officials said glitches are to be expected, but in this case the problem appeared to be more political than technical. Using Microsoft's Windows NT operating system in such a critical environmen
Re:Movie idea (Score:3, Interesting)
This should never have been run on a non-real-time operating system. So not NT, not Linux, not MacOS, etc...
Re:Movie idea (Score:5, Insightful)
NT get chosen for stuff like this because it's easier for them to support special hardware by writing and maintaining drivers, not a particular monolithic kernel that slashbots would recommend.
Frankly, who cares. This would be a story about some really cool tech (an enormous, "invisible" boat) but instead its an OS flamewar.
Bah, slashdot isn't a "news for nerds" or a "geek" site anymore, it's just a soapbox for OSS philosophy.
Re:Movie idea (Score:3, Interesting)
I've not read the full details of the big blackout in the NE a year or two ago but so far, I've not seen anything that says that the MSBlast worm did not bring it's LAN to it's knees and cause this. They do say that the monitoring systems message queues were backing up and caused that s
Re:IMO Hardly News (Score:5, Interesting)
When I passed the story on to coworkers, they didn't entirely believe me. After all, why would the Military use NT computers for mission critical applications? Then about a month later, the story of the USS Blueridge hit the presses. I was vindicated!
With any luck, they've learned enough that the USS Ronald Regan won't be suffering systems failures anytime soon.
Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)
The stealth effect is kind of ruined (Score:5, Funny)
Booze cruise... (Score:5, Funny)
-Isaac
Sinking squared (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sinking squared (Score:3, Informative)
Not exactly the type of thing that we want taking a war ship down....
Besides, Penguins and water go together!!
Re:Sinking squared (Score:3, Insightful)
DaVinci Virus (Score:2, Funny)
Corvette (Score:4, Informative)
Corvette: A small, fast warship with light armament often used for anti-submarine warfare.
Re:Corvette (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Corvette (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Corvette (Score:5, Informative)
Anybody who wants to see a another good article about the ship, with lots of pictures, try, here. [naval-technology.com]
Re:Corvette (Score:3, Interesting)
Well I have to admit I didn't read this article so I don't know if the article talks about what kind of stealth technology the ship has, but I did serve as a Sub Sonar Tech in the U.S. Navy in the early 90's so I can answer the part about what good it might do.
As you said, subs use almost exclusively sonar to find and track other ship
BSOD (Score:5, Funny)
Support ? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know that using an old an proven operation system is better because all major bugs have been either wiped out or referenced, still I'm not sure that using a closed source unsupported OS is the smartest way. But maybe they know better ?
Re:Support ? (Score:5, Informative)
January 1, 2005 - Beginning on this date, Pay-per-incident and Premier support will no longer be available. This includes security hotfixes.
January 1, 2005
(or later) - Online support will no longer be available
Re:Support ? (Score:3, Interesting)
I can't think of a single company that wouldn't keep a dedicated team employed if paid to do so. All you have to do is cover the costs plus some profit - I can't think of a reason not to.
Forget a USB-powered Steering Wheel... (Score:3, Funny)
That'll _really_ make a WinNuke.
Re:Forget a USB-powered Steering Wheel... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually (I'm Swedish) we don't have much of an army, airforce, or navy, at all anymore..
Not that I personally agree to spending the kind of money you do in the US, but the military situation is pretty pathetic in Sweden (although it's been a few hundred years since we were a military power by any standard).
We can't defend our borders at all, and we probably can't wage an effective (defensive/guerilla) war on Swedish soil either (no militia to speak of, laws against owning weapons other than for hunting, etc.).
The cuts in the military budget has been brutal, to the point I was kind of amazed that they've been able to develop this stealth vessel at all (with what money - the entire navy budget?!?).
Without much debate, politicians have been working overtime to convert (reduce) our own military to a few special units (like this stealth corvette thing) - perhaps to be used in some large EU military force.. (Not that I know enough about it to say whether 'tis a 'Good Thing', but I've always considered self-reliance to be important, so.. I guess I think it sucks bigtime.)
Re:Forget a USB-powered Steering Wheel... (Score:4, Informative)
Barring a revival of the Russian bear, there's really not a lot to worry about, and besides, you've got the Finns there to sacrifice themselves for your safety (as has happened on several occasions in the past, IIRC).
Steering (Score:4, Insightful)
Doesn't carbon fibre burn? (Score:5, Insightful)
The British learned this lesson the hard way in the Falklands. In that case the new building material was aluminum, which can actually burn when it gets hot enough. This contributed to the loss of several ships which suffered massive fires after being hit by Argentinian aircraft. As a result, not only in the UK but in navies around the world, new naval ships are built entirely out of steel.
Re:Doesn't carbon fibre burn? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Doesn't carbon fibre burn? (Score:5, Informative)
But as the MSDS for carbon fiber points out:
Flammability classification: Not classified.
Flash Point/Method: Not known, but very high!
Auto-Ignition Temperature: Not determined
Flammable Limits: Lower: Not applicable
Upper: Not applicable
Carbon Fiber MSDS link [2spi.com]
Re:Doesn't carbon fibre burn? (Score:5, Informative)
Your example of HMS Sheffield is in any case incorrect and is covered in the sci.military.navy FAQ: [hazegray.org]
There are many misconceptions and incorrect stories regarding the use of aluminum in warship construction.
One common story is that HMS Sheffield, a destroyer sunk during the 1982 Falkland War, was lost because her alleged aluminum superstructure made her more vulnerable to damage. This story is completely untrue, because Sheffield's superstructure was not aluminum. Like all ships of her class, her hull and superstructure were entirely steel. Aluminum played no role in her loss.
Two Royal Navy warships lost during the Falklands War did have aluminum superstructures, and their loss is incorrectly attributed to this feature. Ardent was hit by seven 500- and 1000-pound bombs, plus at least two more bombs which failed to detonate, and sank some six hours after the attack. Any warship of her size, regardless of aluminum or steel construction, would likely be sunk by this many bombs, so aluminum cannot be blamed here. Antelope, another aluminum-superstructure ship, was struck by two bombs, which lodged in the ship but failed to explode. Later, while one of the bombs was being defused, it exploded, blowing a major hole in the hull and starting a large fire. The fire eventually reached the magazines, causing these to explode. Again, an aluminum superstructure appears to have little connection to the ship's loss, which was caused by the explosion of the bomb and the magazines.
A related story claims the US Navy and Royal Navy abanonded aluminum superstructures, in favor of steel, as a result of the Falklands war. Since aluminum superstructures played little or no role in the Falkands losses, this story is obviously untrue. The Royal Navy's switch to steel appears to be a result of a 1977 fire in the frigate Amazon. In the US Navy, the switch from aluminum to steel superstructures was a result of the 1975 collision between the carrier John F. Kennedy and the cruiser Belknap. The collision caused major fires aboard the cruiser, and her aluminum superstructure essentially melted; she was reduced to a badly burnt hulk. This incident lead to a decision to adopt steel superstructures in the next new warship class, the Arleigh Burke (DDG 51) class destroyers. This decision had been made prior to the Falkands War.
Re:It Can't be steel (Score:5, Funny)
I know I'm going to karma hell for this joke, but....
In Soviet Russia(socialist Sweden?), Minesweeper runs Windows!
Re:Doesn't carbon fibre burn? (Score:5, Insightful)
WWII demonstrated the obsolescence of your old behemoths. Take the British and German fleets from the battle of Jutland: classic dreadnoughts, immense steel battleships with incredible armour and gigantic guns. Put them on one side. Take the HMS Ark Royal, a small aircraft carrier from the modern Royal Navy. Put that on the other side. Which side wins?
If you said anything other than Ark Royal you lose. Our good friends the Japanese demonstrated in 1941 what happens to traditional battleships when someone in an aeroplane has a go at them.
Re:Doesn't carbon fibre burn? (Score:3, Insightful)
Which side wins? (Score:3, Informative)
The German in the Type XXI submarine [uboat.net] packing active and passive SONAR, accoustic and wireguided torpedoes with power assisted loading, a truely effective whisper mode that defeats allied passive sonar and accoustic torpedoes and the capability to remain submerged for days on end? The Royal Navy got a very rude shock when they finally got their hands on one of them.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Doesn't carbon fibre burn? (Score:5, Interesting)
That's because they don't need to go in for close combat. Firing massive shells is a relic of the days when naval wars were fought with cannons. These days a carrier would strike your battleship from over 100 miles out and sink her without a single useful shot fired by the battleship. Not to mention that armor is relatively ineffective against many modern weapons that are designed to pierce armor. Thus naval warfare focuses on a different set of abilities:
1. Ability to launch a strike from great distances.
2. Speed to quickly enter and exit a theater of operations (U.S.S Enterprise [CVN-65] did 32 knots, non-stop, around the world!)
3. Stealth to sneak up on a ship without getting blasted from a hundred miles away. (Subs still rule this area.)
4. Screening ships and weapons to shoot down incoming planes.
5. Survivability via ability to float despite massive internal damage.
6. G.I. proofing so that no one accidentally blows up the ship from the inside. (Don't laugh, this happened several times in WWII.)
The truth however, is that any major conflict would probably see a total loss of all seagoing vessels. They'd simply start lobbing nukes at one another until they are all destroyed or capsized.
Seafoam blue (Score:5, Funny)
BSD (Score:3, Funny)
Cockpits stand back...... (Score:3, Funny)
Next up, homemade bridge for seafaring game, complete with a computer controlled salt water sprayer. I can't wait.......
Re:Cockpits stand back...... (Score:3, Interesting)
Norway has also designed a stealth missile torpedo boat Skjold [www.mil.no]
This is a surface effect ship, and you will have no problems spotting it on IR or seeing its wake. But you will have a *very* hard time seeing it on radar at all.
As for submarine sims, Silent
from the ctrl-alt-del-to-log-in dept.? (Score:2)
Wouldn't that be: "from the ctrl-alt-del-to-rudder-amid-ship-dept."
It could be worse... (Score:2)
I want one (Score:3, Funny)
Pretty pictures ala Google cache (Score:4, Informative)
They'll be easy to find (Score:2, Funny)
Amazing. (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course I don't know the last time Sweden went to war but still.
Pictures and Another More Detailed Article... (Score:5, Informative)
Detailed Article including Construction Information and many pictures. [memagazine.org]
Not Surprisingly (Score:5, Funny)
Stealth ship, my ass (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, wait...
Pictures of Visby (Score:5, Informative)
Hope they do better than the US Navy did with NT (Score:5, Interesting)
Guess it took this long to work out the bugs... Not bad - only 7 years!
Re:Hope they do better than the US Navy did with N (Score:3, Insightful)
Funnily enough, both the commanding office and the officer in charge of that project went on the record to state that the problem was not with NT.
How many OS crashes do you know which can be fixed
I can See it Now (Score:5, Funny)
Excuse my lack of Nautical Terms, but you get the idea.
Navigator: Captain, radar is picking up an iceberg 2 Nautical miles ahead, just off the port bow.
Captain: No problem, that's plenty of time to steer clear.
Captain clicks the navigation display on NT
Clippy: It seems you are trying to steer, what would you like to do?
Navigator: Captain, Icberg 1 mile ahead
Captain: (showing frustration) clicks Steer Starboard
Captain: This should handle it!
Clippy: How many degrees starboard would you liek to steer?
Captain uttering swedish curse words, clicks 10 degrees
Navigator Captain, Iceberg at 400 meters
Clippy: You clicked Turn Starboard and 15 degrees, it seems you are trying to evade an Iceberg. Windows NE (Nautical Edition) has several new features, just for this.
Clippy: Would you like to enable the "Evade Iceburg" Wizard?
Captain: $^@#$#%*, runs up to the wooden ships wheel
Captain: See, this is why the tried and true method works! turns the wheel
Windows NE has detected a new device and is unable to find a driver for it.
Captain: Aha! my son warned me about this, I have the driver right here!
Windows NE: Windows NE has finished installing drivers for the device "Ships Wheel", in order to use this device you must restart windows. Click here to restart, or if you wish to restart later click cancel.
Sharks: Break out the hotsauce fellas, here comes dinner
Plastic is the right choice (Score:3, Insightful)
If the Visby really does turn out to be more cost-efficient than a steel ship, some maritime analysts believe that it could be a matter of time before merchant vessels begin to be made from tough plastics.
I've had a little yellow plastic duck toy that has been chewed into fervently by my pet dog for years and years, and the thing STILL stays afloat no problem. I think the Swedes are on the right track here.
Problem!! (Score:3, Funny)
Structural Integrity (Score:4, Interesting)
Where did they get NT for a new install? (Score:3, Interesting)
Vulnerability? (Score:4, Interesting)
The article states that they had to create new techniques for cutting the material during construction, but if this gets hit with a mine/torpedo/exocet, will it shatter? If not, how would they fix the leaks w/o being able to weld a new piece of steel over the hole(s) to keep it afloat until it makes it back to the shipyard?
Re:Vulnerability? (Score:3, Funny)
Just imagine a group of very nervous looking sailors waiting while one of them is mixing up a large batch of 5-minute epoxy.
Fire Control (Score:5, Funny)
Fire Control: Sir, unable to engage target 1004 the system has encountered a VB runtime error 91 object variable not set.
Captain: Engine room ahead all full make turns for
30 knots.
Engine Room: Sir we keep getting a RPC failure in the gas turbine controller.
Captain: All hands abandon ship!
Instructions for using the forward cannon (Score:5, Funny)
During combat it becomes necessary to increase your rate of fire to ensure the destruction of enemy vessels. Microsoft does not endorse the use of this software on fishing boats, pleasure craft, or walruses.
From the Control Panel select "Forward Cannon." Right click on the cannon and select "Properties." From the "Firing Rate" tab make sure the "Fire at will" option, and click the apply button. If the ship does not begin firing type "Regedit" at the command prompt. Under "HKEY_CLASSES_LOCAL_MACHINE" search for "Fire Control" and make sure the is a "Fire Control" entry in the registry. If necessary, load the Forward Cannon 1.3 install CD and double click the fcannon.reg file.
Once the cannon is installed, you may choose to test-fire a round. You will be prompted with a dialog asking if the target was hit. Clicking on No will take you to a web page with possible reasons (non of which will actually apply) as to why the target was missed. Some targets are not compatible with Windows and cannot be hit with the forward Gun.
Weighs twice as much (Score:5, Funny)
From the article:
And if it is detected, the Visby should be quick enough to escape as it is only half as light as a conventional corvette.
In other words, its great weight makes it _more_ likely to avoid attacks -- perhaps by escaping downhill.
The Good, The Bad and the Ugly (Score:5, Interesting)
The bad: Let's see, didn't the US Navy already experience a problem with an NT4-based ship being dead in the water? And a dead ship can't maneuver. If there are other ships around, that's not a good time to be invisible. (Captain of aircraft carrier: "What was that crunchy sound?")
The ugly (editing): "And if it is detected, the Visby should be quick enough to escape as it is only half as light as a conventional corvette." Presumably they meant half as heavy!
the French have already got a stealth one (Score:3, Funny)
I hope the frigate has a lower radar signature than a 1970s Volvo...
building materials (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, if you use the technique the Sweedes used (sandwich expandable foam between two CF layers), the hull is alot more buoyant than a steel hull - which means you can change the shape (within reason) to a more stealthy version.
Modification would be a bitch though! If you want to weld a new bracket to a steel hull it takes 5min from the inside or a few hours to do externally. If you try the same thing on a CF hull, it takes a few hours (12?) for the CF resin to go off. Forget trying to modify the exterior hull without a drydock. Also, in the event of wartime damage repairs you can weld a new plate over the hull and have it watertight and you are good to go. No chance with CF - it needs a completely dry environment (assuming you even have enough raw CF & resin in the first place - you can't just reuse old sections)
Re:building materials (Score:5, Informative)
this is good planning (Score:3, Funny)
obvious question (Score:5, Funny)
question (Score:3, Insightful)
I RTFA and it mentions being less visible to radar, infrared, etc but says nothing about sonar detection. Isn't sonar a big way of tracking warships? Is this still going to be vulnerable to that?
I doubt it will be NT for long. (Score:5, Interesting)
According to what little info is avialable from Janes [janes.com] The ship is one of two which were initially ordered in 1995. Military procurement being what it is, no matter where you go, the ships were probably designed with NT in mind, circa '95. However, I doubt NT will last longer than the first refit or post-sea trials.
The US and UK navies are both experimenting with a number of computer-control options ranging from MS solutions, to various *nixen. Of course there is the now aporcyphal story [seclists.org] of the NT crash that put the USS Yorktown dead in the water. Short answer, it may have been built on the NT platform, but lots of replacement systems exist now and I doubt NT will survive long enough for the ship to enter the active list.
And of course, Clippy is included! (Score:3, Funny)
A: Declare war!
B: Send a bouquet of flowers?
C: Trigger the ship's self destruct?
D: Open the e-mail attachment titled "HotPix.pif"?
Sigh... English.... (Score:3, Insightful)
And if it is detected, the Visby should be quick enough to escape as it is only half as light as a conventional corvette.
So.... is it twice as heavy as a conventional corvette?
New meaning for old phrases... (Score:3, Funny)
Drop out. (Score:3, Insightful)
Not a real-time OS (Score:4, Insightful)
NT is known for freezing for periods of up to 10 seconds (maybe more?) at random intervals, quite probably while it defrags the mess it has got its memory into. The same problem happens with Win2000 and I have also seen longish freezes in XP. Controlling a ship, or anything lese for that matter, needs hard real time.
Not only that, in most countries, evidently not Sweden, the software would have to be capable of validation and verification to a suitable standard, that can of course only be accomplished if you have source. The currently fashionable standard assigns criticality levels Sil1 to SIL4, now NT can't even meet SIL1 (SIL4 is the highest, mandatory in life-threatening situations). Previously, lots of people followed the aircraft industry in assigning levels 1,2,3,4 or A,B,C and D (in these cases 1 or A was required in potentially life-threatening cases). An extra level, Z, was introduced, guess why?
I once upon a time thought that the Swedes were generally competent, however with the JAS39 Grippen, and now this, I think that their defence industry has become a complete joke. I could tell you about their SAAB civil aircraft, fortunately they are out of production now.....
how is it possible (Score:3, Funny)
Another group that didn't read the EULA (Score:3, Interesting)
as in the operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation or communication systems, air traffic control, direct life support machines, or weapons systems, in which the failure of java technology could lead directly to death, personal injury, or severe physical or environmental damage.
Interesting that they pawn this all off on Java and not anything having to do with Microsoft.
Let's hope it never goes into combat ... (Score:3, Interesting)
I guess rather than welding it they'd be using epoxy to repair? At least that's what we do with R/C planes that use carbon fiber (well, usually you replace the carbon fiber completely when it breaks -- not an option for a ship made of it.)
Re:Let's hope it never goes into combat ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe they use individual plates that can be replaced one at a time.
Emergency repairs would be a bitch, though.
OK, enough jabs at NT (Score:4, Insightful)
Mod me down if you want, but you know it'd be abusive, and this is totally on-topic.
Re:USB? (Score:2)
Re:Even better... (Score:3, Funny)
"Ah'm sorry, Cap'n, for some reason the ship's wheel has paired itself with my mobile phone instead of the ship."