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From Your PC to Reality in 3 Easy Steps 276

Posted by CmdrTaco from the build-me-a-robot-girl dept.
aelbric writes "PC Magazine is running an on some entrepreneurial businesses that are taking an interesting approach to prototyping and one-off manufacturing. Apparently, you can send in schematics for circuit boards to Pad2Pad, where they will quote, build and ship you a part based on your exact specifications. There is also reference to eMachineShop, for those of you more mechanically inclined, for building some home projects. Design the part on your PC, send it to the shop electronically, recieve custom built component(s). "
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From Your PC to Reality in 3 Easy Steps More

From Your PC to Reality in 3 Easy Steps

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  • Duplicate article (Score:3, Informative)

    by Animats ( 122034 ) on Wednesday July 21, 2004 @12:40PM (#9761455) Homepage
    Get a clue, editors.

  • It's not really the design (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Space cowboy ( 13680 ) * on Wednesday July 21, 2004 @12:41PM (#9761460) Journal
    that's difficult (at least for electronics), it's the realisation. If I have a spartan-3 FPGA in an FG456 package, I need it professionally soldered onto the board - finding that facility for small runs (ie: 1 :-) at reasonable rates is a far harder proposition than firing up Eagle and creating a design.

    I know pad2pad will assemble some of the more commonplace components, but I can't see them running to large-sized chips, and anything up to a QFP100, I can do myself anyway...

    Simon
    • I know this company in the UK can produce boards (not going to get a track between pads though with there board manafacture tolerances), who also apply FGPA's to the board and can do x-ray checks to ensure the device is secured, it's not cheep, but if you wanted cheep you wouln't be using BGA's :)

      http://www.newburyelectronics.co.uk/
    • Maybe I'm missing something, but haven't hardware developers been able to do this for a long time? When I was hardware hacking back in the 1980s, I remember several companies that would take a circuit board design (presumably tested on prototyping breadboard first) and manufacture it in whatever quantities you needed. I think there were even a few chip fabs that could chuck you out a calculator chip in no time. (Although I think all the modern fabs require large runs.)
      • There are a lot of companies who will do small runs of PC boards for you, but you have to give them finished layouts (gerber files). This gut provides the tools to do the layout as well as doing the boards, so it saves you a huge investment in software and learning a layout system.

        Machine shops are the same way. If you design something in AutoCad and give them a finished print, they will quote on it and make you a part. His adavntage again is providing the tools and doing the quote instantly.

        Most websit
        • There are a lot of companies who will do small runs of PC boards for you, but you have to give them finished layouts (gerber files). This gut provides the tools to do the layout as well as doing the boards, so it saves you a huge investment in software and learning a layout system.

          Check Freshmeat for "circuit board", and you will find many CAD programs that don't involve large financial outlays. I use PCB [sourceforge.net], myself.

          There's still a learning curve for the interface, but the time spent learning it is much les

        • There are a lot of companies who will do small runs of PC boards for you, but you have to give them finished layouts (gerber files). This gut provides the tools to do the layout as well as doing the boards, so it saves you a huge investment in software and learning a layout system.

          There are a few places that provide free software and easy online ordering for PCB manufacture. One place I've used before with good results is expresspcb [expresspcb.com]. Cost can be as low as $50ish for bare boards up to say $200-$300 for

        • saves you a huge investment in software and learning a layout system

          Nothing will save you from having to learn any system you choose.

          For years, I used the free PADSPCB demo version that was limited to 70 parts and ran on DOS. PCB/Schematic editor with forward and back annotation, Gerber/Excellon output, a semi-useful autorouter. I loved that thing! Made a lot of money using it and never needed anything more sophisticated. They later limited the demo version to only 20 components because a lot of small m

      • These places may be 10-a-penny around your way, but they're rarer than hens teeth, as far as I can see.

        There's lots of places that'll do you a PCB. No problem there. There's fewer places that'll add assembly of SMT components (BGA arrays can't be done without the specialist equipment :-( There are very few places (at least in my experience) who will take on a small quantity (like, er, 1 :-)

        The guy who responded first has found one such, and a 1 dm^2 PCB with a single BGA device attached is £180, or
      • True. However, it is the one off machined mechanical parts that caught my eye. Although in theory I could make the parts myself, I lack the tools, materials, and experience to do the job properly. I can see where it would be helpful to be able to order whatever is needed off of the internet. Meccano can only go so far.
        • Agreed. I was originally just looking at the Pad2Pad stuff. The eMachineShop has all kinds of possibilities. For example, my wife is very good at drawing horses. To date, she's just been burning the images into "craft" wood pieces. With eMachineShop, she could draw up a laser etched, aluminum work-of-art and have it inexpensively cut on a (very expensive) laser cutter!

          And think of all the money I could make by selling tourists some sort of Injection Molded trinket! I'd be rich! BWHAHAHA! Erm... ok, I'm get
      • Maybe I'm missing something

        You're not. The only thing "new" about this is that it made it into PC Magazine.

        That and it's a dupe http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/16/203022 2&tid=137&tid=216 [slashdot.org] from a few days ago, but that's nothing "new" :-)
    • Toaster oven...

      http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/ov en _art.htm
      • These work well for the QFP packages, but aren't reliable enough for the BGA packages that larger chips come in - the 'pins' are in a square array under the chip, similar to an Athlon or P4, but not as extended. Bridges are a definite no-no, and once it's attached you can't alter which 'pins' have been bridged...

        To do fine-pitch QFP, you only need to run the solder all along the pins anyway, then use braid to remove the bridges - no need for an oven. Flux helps :-)

        ATB,
        Simon.
    • This is a good point. If these firms became large and commonplace enough, perhaps they would influence the design of the components, i.e., components would be specifically designed so that they could be easily and cheaply fabricated in this manner. This has some really interesting implications.

      For example, imagine buying a DVD player that a local fabber "printed" off for you. You purchased it online at a site that functions essentially as a services broker for local suppliers, i.e., enter your zipcode and

      • If fabber scientists are really clever, they'll design the components so that they can be easily disassembled as well, so that components can be endlessly recycled.

        This is already done. Often times with prototypes, the most expensive parts are removed and put on the next rev of the prototype.

    • that is the spot I run into... too many new high performance processors and embedded chips come in the abortion packaging that is BGA (Ball Grid Array) that is almost 100% impossible for a home inventor/engineer to solder on a board. yes I can get a BGA socket for 12X the price of the processor and only if I buy 30 of them. (Note BGA chips come in random and intentionally different sizes just to piss off the engineering people.)

      I can work surface mount without a problem (I find it easier than DIP and thro
  • I was thinking it was going to be something like this:

    1. Turn off PC
    2. Climb stairs out of basement
    3. Go out into sunlight

  • Express PCB (Score:5, Informative)

    by Computerguy5 ( 661265 ) on Wednesday July 21, 2004 @12:43PM (#9761490) Homepage
    Or, if you're so inclined to design your own printed circuit board (PCB), Express PCB [expresspcb.com] offers a reasonably priced service.

  • Killotron 5000 (Score:3, Interesting)

    by blueZhift ( 652272 ) on Wednesday July 21, 2004 @12:45PM (#9761513) Homepage Journal
    Kewl! Now I can get the components made for that Killotron 5000 I've been working on!

    Seriously, I think fab services like this could be a great boon, but how do you keep some group with nefarious intent from getting WMD components fabbed this way. If the pieces were submitted by multiple customers, it would be difficult to see that someone was trying to build something destructive.

    • Re:Killotron 5000 (Score:3, Insightful)

      by AuMatar ( 183847 )
      Did you know that your local grocery store carries everything you need to make WMDs? Its absolutley true! Chlorine bleach and ammonia, they mix into an extremely poisonous gas. You then need a way to store it (I suggest a complex gaseous storage device called a baloon). All 3 of these things are available at any grocery store. We need to ban these dens of sin! For the sake of the children, won't someone please think about the children!

      Welcome to life. If someone wants to kill multiple people, they d
      • Did you know that your local grocery store carries everything you need to make WMDs? Its absolutley true! Chlorine bleach and ammonia, they mix into an extremely poisonous gas.

        Cool, I guess I'm not the only one who takes those "do not mix" symbols on the packaging of household cleaning products as hints, rather than warnings.

    • Something tells me eMachineShop doesn't have the level of precision nor the materials to order up pure weapons grade aluminum tubes and a precisley machined parts of plutonium. My guess is actual terrorists would prefer to buy a finished nuke ready to fire or slap together a poor mans dirty bomb.
  • Pad2Pad might be nice for rank beginners but as others have commented, you quickly hit the wall with their limited parts list.

    With freeware programs like Eagle [cadsoft.de] available and really [barebonespcb.com] cheap [pcb4u.com] circuit board manufacturing options, there's no reason to get locked into a service like Pad2Pad.

    Check out my Digital Design & Construction Wiki [gvsu.edu] for lots of resources on do-it-yourself electronics design.

    • For really, really cheap small boards check out Olimex. Shipping from Bulgaria takes awhile, but they do panelization and depanelization for free. I did a one-off design that cost me $40 total, including shipping, and gave me 20 boards (about 1.5" by .5"). I've ordered small production runs (~160 pieces) for about half that per-panel rate.
  • Apparently, you can send in schematics for circuit boards to Pad2Pad, where they will quote, build and ship you a part based on your exact specifications.

    Wow! And here I was sending out board designs for computer controlled lighting systems and getting back automatic espresso machine boards. No wonder they don't fit the slots and plugs in our cases.

  • Make your own circuit board (Score:5, Informative)

    by diagnosis ( 38691 ) on Wednesday July 21, 2004 @12:49PM (#9761552) Homepage
    At work, we use www.protoexpress.com. They're similar to pad2pad for what we use them for, 'no-touch' custom circuits. No-touch means they don't do any verification of the board, and is what lets you get your own board quickly and inexpensively. We've had them do some pretty complex stuff without any problems. Their turn-around times are also very good (generally less than one week), and they are affordable and don't have any problems with small runs -- we often do only 2 prints of a new design.

    Of course, a significant portion of the time involved in this is in populating the board. Soldering 2,000 points is never any fun.
    ----------------------
    Freedom or Evil: Freevil.net [freevil.net]
    G. W. Bush says, "You decide!"

  • cool! (Score:3, Funny)

    by WormholeFiend ( 674934 ) on Wednesday July 21, 2004 @12:51PM (#9761578)
    Now I get to have my very own Kelly LeBrock!

    Now all I need is a bra to wear on my head.
  • Dealing with antique vehicles, there have been several times where a broken part was no longer available (or more the value of the vehicle if very rare), so many of these repairs were bastardized parts from other things, a quick weld job, or duct-tape. There are some shops that will attempt to make the part, but they rarely had CAD programs. Now, measure and/or scan the part in, develop the CAD blueprints and voila, new part!!

    It is cheaper for you to create the CAD specs and hand them off, and eMachine use
    • If the part is old enough that you can't get them anymore, then I'm thinking patent protection may not be an issue!

      That is a teriffic idea, though. Maybe I can get some replacement parts for my Rambler. I had already started experimenting with casting my own glass lenses to replace my broken/half missing tailights, now I might be able to get some of the more complicated parts like the plastic dodad that locks the gearshift in place until you pull it forward.

      Mmm. Possibilities...
      =Smidge=
    • It is not nearly as easy as you make it sound. CNC machines capable of creating complicated 3D parts are very expensive to run (A wire cutter machine I once worked on cost something around $400 per hour to run, and making the part took 12 hours). There is the initial cost of the machine, maintenance, consumables (lubricant, bits, etc.), plus an operator to set up each job. A job will only be as precise as the operator sets the offsets and secures the peice. Compared to the costs of running the machines,

  • Based on my experience... (Score:4, Informative)

    by BrK ( 39585 ) on Wednesday July 21, 2004 @12:53PM (#9761600) Homepage
    I've used ExpressPCB for a lot of mini projects in the past. The rates are pretty good if you know how to maximize your layout properly, and you can get multiple boards out of 1 panel (ie: 5 silkscreened/soldermasked panels of 21sqin/ea are about $250, ($50/ea). But, if you can get 5 boards out of 1 panel (and you need 25 boards, give or take) then your per-board price is effectively $10/ea, which is reasonable for a small, custom job). The quality of the ExpressPCB boards has always been excellent.

    I converted one of my projects to pad2pad just last night. Their component selection is horribly small right now (no .1uF caps?? WTF??), but the prices for boards with a few components soldered on is pretty reasonable (again, if you are ordering in a manner that spreads your cost over 25 or 30+ boards).

    FrontPanelExpress [frontpanelexpress.com] is another good option for custom metal panels.

  • Damn (Score:2, Funny)

    by hellfire ( 86129 )
    I thought this was an article about the new wave in pr0n. I'm so disappointed now.

  • It's very interesting to see a website like eMachineShop (I've known about it for a little while already). A lot of actual machine shops that use CNC machinery are run by 40+ y/o gentlemen who are sort of "stuck in the past" (no offence to anyone) with regards to their equipment.

    So when you have websites such as eMachineShop you're providing competition to these guys who have no web presence and no facility to even take such orders.

    *plug*
    On another note, I'm working on something similar but in a slight

    • On another note, I'm working on something similar but in a slightly different manner. Machine shops themselves would send in a CAD file, and then we would quote them on a cycle time based on our machinery that they could purchase (since I work for a CNC Machine Distributor, who is also ironically suffering from a DOS attack).

      So... they're already suffering a DOS, and you link to them from slashdot? That's just mean...
  • here is also reference to eMachineShop, for those of you more mechanically inclined, for building some home projects.
    Just send in a request for some aluminium tubes and wait for the feds to come knocking at your door!

  • but unfortunately a little too expensive for my taste right now. Yes, I could design my own motherboard, but I'd pay more for the proto-fab than I would had just went out and bought one retail.

    Price aside, this is an electronics hobbyist's dream. After the 80's, it became increasingly more difficult for the electronics enthusiast to build hardware of moderate complexity - soldering SMT components to a board is _NOT_ feasible for the average hobbyist. And I won't miss messing around with touching up b

  • Filener Laser! (Score:2, Informative)

    by jjeffers ( 127519 )
    Filener Laser [filener.com] also provides a great service. They will laser cut plastics and most non-metal materials, and will mark metals. I've sent them drawings in the past and gotten parts back in a matter of a few days. You can see a laser cut acrylic bezel [winddatalogger.com] on one of my products.

    Not a representative of the company, just a really satisified customer.


  • Anyone know of anything like emachineshop in the UK or mainland Europe?
  • ...how this is different than anything else. Sure, they have their custom layout software, but there are lots of PCB layout packages on the market. Otherwise, you are still faced with:
    • high cost of small-volume orders
    • finding and purchasing components in resonable volumes
    • testing the boards to verify that the mfg process holds up to your needs (maybe not a problem for amateurs but small traces can be a problem)
    So, aside from their software, did I just miss the point?

  • We're getting packet echo in here... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Christopher Thomas ( 11717 ) on Wednesday July 21, 2004 @01:09PM (#9761785)
    Obligatory link to the previous slashdot post [slashdot.org] about the same article, five days ago.

  • Wow? (Score:2)

    by bsd4me ( 759597 )

    Wow? There are bunch of contract manufacturers that do rapid turnaround. Browse through and of the trade rags, and you will find some. I also don't see the point of the ``special'' software. File formats for netlists and layout are standard, and just about all of the CAD tools can generate files in just about all of the formats.

  • Except you used to have to call someone on the phone to talk about specifications and to get pricing. Regardless you have long been able to send out a file and get back a part based on it. CAD/CAM has been making this possible for complex parts for a long time, and most companies which make PC boards will accept a HPGL plot out of orcad or what have you for your PC board.
  • Given a title like "From Your PC to Reality in 3 Easy Steps", I really thought this was going to be a thread on how to end an MMOG addiction.

    Off to RTFA...

  • Stereolithograhy, too. (Score:3, Informative)

    by Dr. Mu ( 603661 ) on Wednesday July 21, 2004 @01:18PM (#9761889)
    For quick-turn plastic models from my 3D CAD drawings, I've used XPress3D [xpress3d.com]. They broker the services of numerous prototyping houses, and their website is drop-dead simple to use. Just upload your file, and almost instantly you will see a rotating animation of your creation and quotes from several of their suppliers. Select the prototyping method and supplier you want to use, enter your credit card info, and in a couple days you have your prototype. It's the slickest, most well-thought-out web service I've seen in a long time.
  • My all-time favorite quick-turn PCB prototyping house is AP Circuits [apcircuits.com] in Calgary. Their P1 service is very inexpensive and fast (2-day turn with overnight shipping). You don't get soldermask or silkscreen with that, but for proof-of-concept -- even with surface mount parts -- you don't need it. What really sets them apart from other proto houses is their realistic policy regarding multiple designs or multiple boards on one panel (hint: they don't have one). They understand that what they're selling is a comm
  • Pad2Pad is relatively expensive as board fabs go. barebonespcb.com [barebonespcb.com] is much cheaper. It's really cool to have a real fabricated board though. Much better than breadboarding, and if you plan on keeping the circuit can be cheaper as breadboard run >$20.

  • eMachineShop is being grossly underrated! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by LesPaul75 ( 571752 ) on Wednesday July 21, 2004 @01:57PM (#9762294) Journal
    Here, and in the comments following the original post about eMachineShop (5 days ago), everyone is talking about Pad2Pad and hardly even mentioning eMachineShop. And the truth is that eMachineShop marks a huge, huge milestone in our history. Ok, that's just my opinion, but think about it for a second. You can draw up a three dimensional object, click a few buttons, and have that object delivered to your doorstep within two weeks! I know what the cynics are saying... "You could already do that" and "It's too expensive" and "You can't build ridiculously complex shapes" and whatever else... but forget about all that obligatory naysayer BS for a moment.

    You can download their software, for free. You draw up your part, and immediately get a price quote. Then you modify your design, experiment with different materials and different machines, and get as many price quotes as you like, until you find the one that you can afford. Then you click the "buy" button and you get the part delivered right to your doorstep.

    Yes, of course there's no really new technology involved here, but there really is genius in this business model. This idea has put more power in my hands (the average home PC user) than anything I've seen in a long time. What were my options before? Buy a CNC machine and rent space in a warehouse? Draw my design in a CAD app and then send it to a B&M machine shop a dozen times until it finally meets their design rules, only to find out that it's too expensive?

    And, finally, and most importantly, just think for a minute about what this could mean in the very near future. What if this idea catches on, and suddenly there are websites that do the same thing as eMachineShop, only with fabric? Or clothing? Or more sophisticated stuff, like motors and gears and robotics?

    This really could mark the beginning of a new era. Imagine a world where people use P2P programs to share designs for CARS, rather than Eminem albums. Hey, you got that new Ferrari? I'll trade you this custom convertible that some guy designed and posted to Usenet. What's happening is that the advancing technology of the internet is making all forms of information accessible to everyone. 3D objects are nothing more than information, just like music, movies, pictures, etc... Some day piracy of music and movies will be the least of the **AA's worries. Maybe AAA will be the next "Association of America" to try to stop P2P.
    • Well, generally because if they were to steal your design and you proved it, they would never have another customer again in their lives. If you think your design is so valuable they might risk it, I suggest you think again; if you still think so, then learn your own damn fabrication techniques, or find a machine shop that'll sign some sort of legal document preventing that sort of occurrence.

      Oh, and stop taking the paranoia pills.
  • A friend of mine works for Quickparts.com [quickparts.com], a company that will produce prototypes based on CAD drawings that you submit over the internet. It's based in NE Atlanta, GA, and is focused on industrial parts. They will fill orders on a very short term basis for people who don't have enough inventory or want to do a test production run. Pretty nifty stuff.
  • I think what we are seeing is the rise of the cottage industry (discussed here [smsu.edu], here [futureshock.co.za], & here [fourthwavegroup.com] as examples) brought up by Alvin Toffler in The Third Wave [amazon.com] .
  • before posting dupe articles..........
  • I hate to break it to PC Mag, but people were going from CAD to parts with no prints in 1985.

    Maybe back in 1970 people were designing board etch (scaled up 10 times or so) layouts by placing self-adhesive red transparent tape (like pinstriping tape) onto clear plastic sheets, and then projecting this master onto sensitized copper-clad boards.

    Old boards that have curved lines for the traces are layed out this way. CAD boards have straight lines and 90 or 45 degree angles in the traces.

    As far as mechanical p

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