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Communications Wireless Networking Hardware

New Phone Uses WLAN or Cel Networks 92

Posted by CmdrTaco from the now-thats-what-i'm-talking-about dept.
Reefa writes "Avaya, Motorola and Proxim this week are expected to announce a co-developed handset and enterprise network gear that let mobile phone users roam between cellular networks and wireless LANs to make/receive calls. The phone uses SIP to make calls when on the WLAN network and switches to using cellular network when out of WLAN coverage and vice versa. The device also supports Push-To-Talk over SIP. BTW, the phone runs WinCE."
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New Phone Uses WLAN or Cel Networks More

New Phone Uses WLAN or Cel Networks

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  • Minutes (Score:1, Funny)

    by djkoolaide ( 729441 )
    Maybe your minutes won't run out when you're on a WLAN network? That sure would be nice!
    • What I am wondering is if the SIP calls will part of the standard contract. Of course, many users will want to be able to use their own service instead (less $).

  • Crashes more often (Score:1, Interesting)

    by RLW ( 662014 )
    Win CE crashes more often than Win XP and that's too much!

    • OT: qnx (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Eric604 ( 798298 )
      Why is it that QNX is used so rarely?

      • Re:OT: qnx (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Kenja ( 541830 )
        "Why is it that QNX is used so rarely?"

        Price. It is a VERY expensive OS.

        • Although it's free for personal use, according to my Dad. He uses QNX frequently at Work.
          • "Although it's free for personal use, according to my Dad. He uses QNX frequently at Work."

            Dont know where he got it from then. As far as I know, the only "free" version of Qnx is the demo boot floppy.

            • I'm looking. I found a 30-day evaluation [qnx.com], but I'm waiting for the confirmation email for my "myQNX" account so I can look at their downloads page. Has anyone else noticed GMail being slow?
              • it's not gmail, it's actually QNX. it did take them several hours to a full day and a half to send me my email (two seperate accounts) to view the downloads page.

                the 30 day evauluation will only drop to a lesser enhanced mode but it's still a usable system from then on.

    • Re:Crashes more often (Score:5, Interesting)

      by wfberg ( 24378 ) on Tuesday July 27, 2004 @12:14PM (#9813297)
      Win CE crashes more often than Win XP and that's too much!

      My Win XP setup is fairly stable (also helped by the fact the dual cpu means one cpu is usually still there to do ctrl-alt-del magic), but the instability of wince is almost inconceivable.. It should remind you more of windows 95. It hangs on to all the design mistakes ever made in Windows, and then adds some.

      Unfortunately, it has such a strong foothold in the PDA market, that the companies that produce components for iPaqs and such are likely to offer wince support by default. Whereas if you were to go with linux, good luck finding energy-efficient GPUs and touchscreens etc. that are supported.

      It also doesn't help that there's not much in the way of device-friendly linux APIs.. Running X on a small device is a bit too much; opie is there, but not much else.. Microsoft have even crammed a stripped down version of directX into their pocketPC OS. *shudder*

      You have to wonder who dropped the ball over at Sun that they don't have a Java OS for handhelds. And lament the rape of symbian by Nokia. (No, you're thinking of a sybian, different thing entirely).

      • You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ;)

        • You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ;)

          Well, according to dictionary.com

          inconceivable Audio pronunciation of "inconceivable" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nkn-sv-bl)
          adj.

          1. Impossible to comprehend or grasp fully: inconceivable folly; an inconceivable disaster.
          2. So unlikely or surprising as to have been thought impossible; unbelievable: an inconceivable victory against all odds.

          I was aiming for sense 2, the first, there.

          Though in another lemma it also lis
      • I'd bother more about security then stability with WinCE. Keepeng in mind MS security track records (IE anyone ?) and the new communication media like WiFi , Bluetooth, SMS I'm afraid the proliferation of WinCE phones spell disaster. Phone spamming, adware, trojans ... Symbian don't use Interner Explorer at least.
        • I'd bother more about security then stability with WinCE. Keepeng in mind MS security track records (IE anyone ?) and the new communication media like WiFi , Bluetooth, SMS I'm afraid the proliferation of WinCE phones spell disaster. Phone spamming, adware, trojans ... Symbian don't use Interner Explorer at least.

          What security? There is no security in win ce (that includes no check on which programs try to access the internet, phonedialling, etc. which is a nice way to rack up GPRS bandwidth and 1-900 ch

    • Re:Crashes more often (Score:3, Interesting)

      by garcia ( 6573 ) *
      Win CE crashes more often than Win XP and that's too much!

      Well, XP doesn't crash as much as you claim it to be, but we'll let that slide. Yes, CE is extremely unstable. So unstable that I wouldn't trust it to make phone calls. Why are we making cell phones run CE? Why can't the run some embedded OS like Linux or QNX (or whatever)?

      I guarantee that way that you wouldn't be locked in to a specific router, a clunky and unstable OS, or a vendor who is notoriously evil.
      • Yes, CE is extremely unstable.

        Is CE the same as Pocket PC? For a short time, they sold them side-by-side, but I thought they completely abandoned the CE nomenclature. Calling a Pocket PC OS by the name Win CE is the same as using NT to describe XP or 2003 (or calling Linux UNIX).

        Oh, and I think Microsoft OSs can sense fear. They crash in the face of people who don't know what they are doing and people that hate MS. I use the tools that best fit the job. Sometimes MS. Sometimes *NIX, sometimes somet
    • Well, it is called WinCE, now, isn't it? Seems rather apt to me ...
      • LOL, I've not put that together. very funny indeed.

        I guess you you've seen this but here goes anyway.
        NEW & Improved Windows CE/ME/NT 2k XP! Think Microsoft when you need an over priced 1 tonne block !
        • Lovely! Actually makes me think of something more between a caulking product and Fixodent.

          I guess you could also get Windows ME/NT OS, the Freshmaker! Hmm, the possiblities abound!

  • Favorite OS name (Score:5, Funny)

    by Dashing Leech ( 688077 ) on Tuesday July 27, 2004 @12:04PM (#9813209)
    Ah yes, my favorite OS name. Who else but M$ would come up with a name that spells wince. Was there ever a more appropriate name? Now they just need to come out with a cringe OS.

  • An intriguing solution to some problems (Score:5, Insightful)

    by chia_monkey ( 593501 ) on Tuesday July 27, 2004 @12:05PM (#9813216) Journal
    The one thing that gets me from the article (yes, I actually read it...go figure) is that you have to use Avaya access points. That right there could be the deal killer because there are already thousands of access points installed around the country. I don't see that many companies tearing apart their infrastructure simply for this functionality. Think of all the national rollout plans (McDonalds, Panera Breads, airports, Barnes & Noble, etc) that would have to redo everything. It would be like starting from scratch for them and for the WiFi companies that installed everything.

    Yet, this is an interesting solution to those killer cell phone bills. We're experiencing that right now as we take a large volume of calls on our cell phones. If we were able to use "WiFi airtime" instead of "cell time" while in the office, that could save a company loads of money.

    • Re:An intriguing solution to some problems (Score:5, Informative)

      by gwernol ( 167574 ) on Tuesday July 27, 2004 @12:18PM (#9813329)
      The one thing that gets me from the article (yes, I actually read it...go figure) is that you have to use Avaya access points. That right there could be the deal killer because there are already thousands of access points installed around the country. I don't see that many companies tearing apart their infrastructure simply for this functionality. Think of all the national rollout plans (McDonalds, Panera Breads, airports, Barnes & Noble, etc) that would have to redo everything. It would be like starting from scratch for them and for the WiFi companies that installed everything.

      But the main use would be within a company, not for public WiFi access points. Replacing the APs within a building, or throughout a hospital (as discussed in the article... natch) is a much smaller task and could easily pay for itself if the calling costs were suitably low.
      • But the main use would be within a company, not for public WiFi access points. Replacing the APs within a building, or throughout a hospital (as discussed in the article... natch) is a much smaller task and could easily pay for itself if the calling costs were suitably low.

        I was thinking the same thing as I hit "submit". It's definitely more of a private side issue for companies. Yet still, that's quite an infrastructure cost for larger companies if they want to do such. Yet for us, a nice small company

  • Starting to End the debate... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Dozix007 ( 690662 ) on Tuesday July 27, 2004 @12:05PM (#9813218)
    I think with the recent release of more an more all in one Cell-Phones we are seeing the end of the convergence\divergence debate. It seems that everything all-in-one devices are picking up much more steem than intercommunication devices. This can be seen with the geek-watch reported yesterday, as well as the new ipod phones.

  • We'll see more of that (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Upcoming WLAN enabled smart phones will simply add this through software. Once you have a computer with enough power in a handset, it's all software.
    • I was wondering about that myself. The Motorola MPx is another handheld with Wi-Fi built-in which is due out fairly soon as I understand it, and presumably you could put some real SIP calling software on that phone in order to get the functionality without being locked to one company's expensive wireless gateways.

  • Two problems... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Teancom ( 13486 ) <david@noSpAM.gnuconsulting.com> on Tuesday July 27, 2004 @12:06PM (#9813226) Homepage
    Every 802.11b wireless device I've ever heard of sucks batteries like a fat kid with a slurpy. The example the article uses is a hospital staff. Is the phone going to last an entire 18-hour shift without recharging? That would be seriously impressive.

    Secondly, why the need to have a special WAP? I can see having to have some sort of control-device, that's obvious. But it really ought to work with any standard WAP, and route to the PBX. I see that really hurting the chances of wide-spread adoption in a lot of places (like my house!). It would be like having a IP telephony system that made you replace all your hubs and switches. Just ain't gonna happen.

    • Re:Two problems... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by djrogers ( 153854 )

      why the need to have a special WAP?

      Simple reason - QoS. The Voice calls you make over Vonage or Skype, while often quite acceptable, are delivered via best effort. If your roommate suddenly decides to download the latest LOTR divx and swamps your DSL line, your call quality goes out the window. This device, and the WAPs that AV will be selling with it, are intended for enterprise use - build out a single 802.11 network for voice and data, at far less cost than a wireless voice network alone would cost

      • Re:Two problems... (Score:3, Informative)

        by Teancom ( 13486 )
        But QoS can be implemented using standard routers. I.e., the routers that every enterprise workplace already has. Connected to via the WAPs and switches that every enterprise already has. Which is my point, really. The "in my house" was meant firmly tongue in cheek :-). As the guy in the article says, they just got done rolling out cisco waps everywhere in the building. Why can't they use those?

        • You are correct. I am always amused by the push to integrate things on WAP's that are already very well done on external devices. Encryption is best done via VPN, authentication is best done on an LDAP, RADIUS or some other platform. Likewise, QoS is best handled by an external device. Simple common sense says that the more functionality and responisibility you shove onto a WAP the more you bog it down and decrease capacity.

          -filter noise
          -authentication
          -encryption
          -routing

          On top of that they want to add

  • Battery Consumption (Score:2, Interesting)

    by reuben04 ( 740293 )
    I wonder how long the batteries last on it. They don't mention that in the article, but all of the WinCE devices I have ever used didn't last all that long. I assume that it would not last as long as the smartphone's as it probably has to search for the Wi-Fi all the time.
  • itll be cool if it works. seems something like this could be where the future of cellphones would be going, with the expansion of WiFi being what it is. And if they can make batteries that last.

  • There is already a similar product being marketed (Score:4, Informative)

    by bain_online ( 580036 ) on Tuesday July 27, 2004 @12:14PM (#9813298) Homepage Journal
    This kind of device already exists,

    Its small poacket size box which has bluetooth capability. You can use a bt headset and a pocketpc/palm with bluetooth to connect to it. And it can make gsm calls, has voip stack comes with its own sip server, and works with any access point.

    here is the link [computex.biz]

    you will find some info on the company and product

  • WinCE (Score:3, Funny)

    by Archangel Michael ( 180766 ) on Tuesday July 27, 2004 @12:16PM (#9813310) Journal
    It is NOT pronounced Win See Ee.

    From Dictionary.com.

    Wince -
    To shrink or start involuntarily, as in pain or distress; flinch.

    For once Microsoft gets it right.

    • Re:WinCE (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      personnally i still like that old joke about the portable new technology based personal OS, the first stable OS by MS

      Win CEMENT

      combining the technologies of WinCE, WinME, and WinNT. rock solid

  • Alternative (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Creamsickle ( 792801 ) on Tuesday July 27, 2004 @12:16PM (#9813317)
    This isn't a first - the Hitara 3800 series came out about six months ago, which can do everything this device Avaya, Motorola and Proxim "invented" does. And for fans of open source, it runs Linux, not M$ crap. Having looked at specs for both devices, the Hitara certainly seems to have better pipeline architechture as well. Another example of open source and open engineering processes leading to better designed hardware.

  • Possible Already (Score:2, Interesting)

    by j_stirk ( 570135 )

    Aren't there already PBXs that can do POTS <-> VoIP style connections? I seem to remember hearing about them, and a quick Google [google.com] for them shows they aren't exactly unheard of.

    Surely, if a phone has a basic 802.11 capability, the effort to write a Java or Symbian app to do the VoIP with the PBX wouldn't be amazingly difficult. And, scarily enough, it might even be platform dependant (or JVM dependant - whichever way your personal bias runs...)

    • Re:Possible Already (Score:3, Insightful)

      by gl4ss ( 559668 )
      the catch is the seamless changing between the two(wifi to gsm and back).

      dunno how well this device tho does is either and you would probably need the operator to co-operate as well anyways or be paying to multiple parties which leads to the question would this be cheaper than what a big (for example) hospital could negotiate with a carrier and just use gsm..
      • You are exactly right. For what it's worth, it is Motorola which is charge of developing the cellular WiFi call hand-over technology, and which is also in charge of wooing the operators.

        And if I were an operator I would be nervous: 'you mean if they use the phones within the office I get zero revenue?'

  • Can you hear me now? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 27, 2004 @12:32PM (#9813450)
    What?
    Can you hear me now?
    HOLD ON A SECOND I'M REBOOTING MY PHONE!
    Can you hear me now?
    Can you hear me now?
    Dammit, another bluescreen! *whacks phone*
    Christ, that car came out of NOWHERE! Watch where you're going, asshole!
    • worse still ... this is a true story ... I was in a pub near where i live a week or two ago. My friend was waiting next to me for his change. I enquired why it was taking so long; He said .. there's something wrong with the Till..My immediate reaction was to ask the barman if the thing was running windows. He said "NT-4" Im waiting for it to reboot , I said, well thats your problem then; and walked off with a smug grin on my face... When windows gets in the way of me getting beer then there are some severe

  • This is not for the home user.. (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The intent of this phone is not for the home user. If you read the article, you can basically use the cell phone as your office phone... it becomes an extension while you are in the office, and then you can use it on the road. In order to use the Wireless LAN and VoIP, it'll need to authenticate with the PBX.

    You could theoretically use VoIP outside the office if you have some way to VPN tunnel back to the office and authenticate with the PBX once again. A VPN client on WinCE might work, in which case, i
  • My reception or lack there of using TDMA or GSM is bad enough already.

    AND this thing runs windows?

    Begin No Carrier joke posts now!
  • If I understand the article, you're stuck with their phones, their access points(!) their PBX and their service. While requiring certain phones and PBX makes sense, I don't see the point of requiring all-new 802.11 access points especially, and that makes me wonder if some artificial restrictions have been designed in to force lock-in when (not if) competitiors come up with similar systems.
    • In the telcom world, the cost of the access points is hardly a concern. The Merlin Legend compatible cordless phone sets run something like $500 per phone alone.

      It is probably more a matter of maintaining control for troubleshooting issues. The last thing Avaya would want is to have to deal with troubleshooting issues in a large enterprise running $19 bargain bin WAPs.

      It would be cool if there was a phone that could hop on any open 802.11 network and talk to a remote VoIP server, however it would be d
  • So, assuming they could get this to work with 802.11(*) in general and I had more than one 802.11 card, could I:
    1. connect to the internet with the phone (if it had GPRS or equivalent)
    2. ship the connection to my laptop via bluetooth
    3. share that connection over a wireless card
    4. connect to the wireless with the phone
    5. GOTO 2
    6. ...
    7. Profit!
    ?

  • one word: (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    bluetooth.

    serious, this can be implemented on existing
    infrastructure. if the computer has bluetooth and
    the cellphone has it too. you don't even need WiFi.
    • two words: bluetooth range. bluetooth is an interesting (but mostly pointless) way to replace the wires to your desk phone, but it's bad for intra-office roaming, since it doesn't have a good range, and it's not designed to be set up for a pervasive, large WLAN.
    • BT is already implementing this with Vodafone - basically, you take your mobile phone home and it starts using your land line, via Bluetooth.

      Bluetooth is probably a better solution for battery life, at least at the moment, and a huge number of European phones support it. Bluetooth headsets stopped being a geek accessory about two years ago and are now used by a lot of people, particularly when driving.

  • Eh, seriously, I doubt many users commenting here have actually used Windows CE itself because it DOESN'T EXIST!, Windows CE is the core on which Pocket PC 2002, Windows Mobile 2003 and the Smartphone edition is built on. Windows CE does NOT exist as a standalone edition that can be compared. Device vendors make a Windows CE that is unique to each manufacturer and device. That is: Microsoft is not involved in the support of WinCE WHATSOEVER, no service packs, no patches. If you have a Windows CE that is MOR

  • SIP is an interesting protocol that has a lot of support.

    I recently purchased a VOIP router that uses SIP protocol to integrate my PTSN (Public Telephone Switched Network) service with VOIP. The Box, a Sipura SPA3000 (http://www.sipura.com), has a jack for a phone line, a jack for a standard telephone, and an ethernet jack which plugs into my router. The telephone rings and dials just like an ordinary phone.

    I can access the VOIP network by calling my home phone and entering a code, or I can access my

    • "push to talk" refers to stateless walkie-talkie style communication, like Nextel does. It doesn't mean you have to push a button to speak in telephone mode -- it just means you can use your phone to do point-to-point packet communication, in addition to the traditional dial/ring/answer/connect modality.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I'll be damned if i let some cell pphone toting war driver get into my network.looks like it's time to bump up the security abit.

    homey, git yer' MAC filter, a diercoinal anntener', and yer shot gun. We's goin' to WAR!

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