Tech Support Levels Dropping 531
NeoPrime writes "USA Today is reporting on the growing concern of the language barrier, when it comes to tech support. It appears that each year it is becoming more compelling to companies to reconsider the use of overseas help desks. According to this story, based '[o]n a 10-point scale, the average level rated by desktop owners dropped from 7.0 in 2003 to 6.3 this year; notebooks fell from 7.2 to 6.1.'"
Marketing Dweeb Double Speak (Score:5, Interesting)
Wow! Could it be that Mr. Nickel is speaking with a forked tongue? I can't speak for Sony worldwide, but the domestic support organisation has an image which is somewhere between SCO and Rambus.
Case in point: A friend of mine bought a VAIO, which never really worked. After the third repair attempt he got it back with a hole in the case, requiring a nasty letter from his lawyer until they finally reimbursed him. That was after accusing him of breaking it himself.
Does Mr. Nickel mean they changed their service model from driving a screwdriver through the computer to let it splatter on concrete from the 5th floor or wot?
getting paid to call hell (Score:5, Interesting)
The company may be "saving money" by paying the people one fifth of what stateside would get, but I can say with confidence that the call took ten times longer than it would have if someone with competant computer knowledge was on the line. Rote reading from of a incomplete trouble shooting guide does not replace expert knowledge. The worse thing you can do to those folks is to follow there directions literally and exactly.
Re:getting paid to call hell (Score:5, Insightful)
We do no advertising, and even then we have more work than we can handle sometimes, just through word of mouth. Personally, I hope computer stuff gets more and more compliacted and touchy, because that means more money for me. Plumbers make a damn good living, and I don't see why I don't stand to do much the same, seeing as the plumbing I work on is way more complex and far more prone to break down.
Re:getting paid to call hell (Score:5, Funny)
IT is about bringing some crap into your building while keeping other crap out. Calculated crap management is what makes IT a science.
Re:getting paid to call hell (Score:3, Funny)
1. Shit goes down.
2. Payday's Tuesday.
Re:getting paid to call hell (Score:3, Funny)
1. Shit goes down
2. Air goes up
3. Hot on the left
4. Cold on the right.
5. Payday's Tuesday
Re:getting paid to call hell (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:getting paid to call hell (Score:5, Insightful)
Bravo yourself! Not in the sarcastic context either. I am so glad that someone brought this up. Call centers are crap. Tech support is hard work, espicially over the phone, and espicially considering these are entry level tech jobs. How many people have worked a Tier 1 phone support job and had a fair-good understanding of correct T-shooting techniques of computers.
Now, I am a unix admin. At one time not too many years ago, I was that asshole on Tier-1 support that knew enough about customer service to keep you from hating the company, but not nearly enough about your computer to keep you hating me. Please people, these are just people that need to keep a job, just like anyone else. Yes, you know more than them, big fucking deal. There are plenty of people out there that know more than you. That and there are plenty of people that could turn your body into pulpy mass, but hopefully they don't. There are laws against physically abusing someone, but none to protect from mental abuse. This job is hard enough, let them and thier shoddy training be, ask to be esecalated, chances are you can and will be.
just my $.02
Re:getting paid to call hell (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:getting paid to call hell (Score:5, Interesting)
Incidentally, I've never had a better time of support than with my Apple gear. They always are cordial and knowledgable on the phone, they BELIEVE you when you say it's busted, they arrange all the pickup and delivery with a 5 day turnaround...and remember that battery recall from last week? I got mine the next day. Orderered after 4 on thursday, battery was on the porch when I got home. Could not believe it.
Dis me for paying $300 over the cost of a comparably sized and priced Acer if you want. But it's been worth it already in headaches averted -- and I have two and a half more years of this stuff!
Re:getting paid to call hell (Score:3, Informative)
Thank you for pointing out that the language barrier isn't the only problem here. My primary frustration with Dell's tech support hasn't been the language barrier so much as it's been the technical proficiency or lack thereof. Plus, it's an insult to one's intelligence when you talk to three different techs in Bangalore and they all introduce themselves as "Bob", "Ralph", and "Andy".
What's really sad is, when Del
I called hell not too long ago myself. (Score:4, Interesting)
I inherited an "hINSPERON" laptop, and during the course of use ran across an odd LED error code. Found nothing about it online, had nothing better to do, so, what the hell, I called hell.
I have called hell many times in the past, but this was one of the longest waits I've ever had, raising the question of where all this money they're saving is going. Finally I get through to a support rep with an indian accent that was understandable, at least to me.
However, clearly she did not understand anything I was saying. I needed one piece of information, very specific (Middle LED Orange-Orange-Green repeating), which SHOULD have been available on their website. I asked the question, she put me on hold for ten minutes, came back and said, "It's not important".
"Maybe not," sez I, "but I still want to know."
Ten more minutes. "It's not important"
"Yes, you said that, and I said I still want to know."
Ten more minutes. "You don't need to know."
I DO need to know, to justify the last two hours of my life!"
Ten more minutes. "It's a battery code."
"No, really? The little battery ideogram next to the LED would never have given me that impression. what does it MEAN?"
Five more minutes, then I hung up. I've had many bad experiences with hell, but that was the worst in terms of sheer pointlessness.
Re:Marketing Dweeb Double Speak (Score:5, Interesting)
Just as a counter-point, I own a Sony DSC-P1 [dpreview.com] digital camera. I bought it at Fry's on a business trip to Califoria back in 2001.
During subsequent years, the camera (or its battery) developed a problem; it wouldn't "hold a charge", but would instead signal being fully charged, and then drop to empty/no charge from mere minutes of use. It was useless.
I surfed around, and one day I found this note [dpreview.com] about the problem. It's on a (as far as I know, I'm not a regular) US site, and I'm in Sweden with a camera bought three years ago in a diferent country, and without any warranty cards or anything sent in.
I thought "what the heck", and e-mailed Sony about it. That's right, I just wrote a question to "info@sony.se", describing my situation and linking to the above page (or maybe Sony's page about the problem, which seems to be gone now). Writing to a general "info" address of a major multinational felt almost silly, in an "of course I won't get a reply" kind of way. But, what can I say; I got a reply within 24 hours! It was from their service representatives here, asking me to send the camera to them, including all accessories. No questions asked.
I did so, and in one week I got it back, with a new battery (that's a $50 value right there, approximately), new charger, a replaced power port in the camera body, and upgraded firmware. The cost to me was the postage to get the camera to the service techs, approx $8 or so.
So, I guess my point is that Sony are surely capable of excellent service, too!
Obligatory PA quote (Score:3, Funny)
Piro: "I see the RAID controller got 'the screwdriver'."
Largo: "It was not l33t. It deserved d34th."
Re:Marketing Doubleplus Groupthink (Score:5, Interesting)
Free Market Capitalism (Score:4, Insightful)
What has happened here is the market provided a cheaper means, but at a cost (Customer satisfication) so hopefully, companies will fix this problem by moving these jobs back to where ever they originally were.
Eh, it's a trade off. (Score:5, Insightful)
Eh, I worked in tech support. The English native speakers are equally as worthless as those that are ESL overseas workers. It's basically a trade off for the most part.
From my personal experience the ESL workers have more technical experience and end up being able to do something for you even if it takes longer for you to get your point across. The native English speakers suck at understanding your point AND they suck at the technical side of things.
$9.00/hr jobs with shitty benefits (if any at all) to put up w/raving assholes bitching at you because your Internet connection is down isn't worth it for most people that have a clue (unless they are college students that need a flexible schedule).
Re:Free Market Capitalism (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Free Market Capitalism (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Free Market Capitalism (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to mention things like ketchup...
Anyway, the reason it becomes an issue here is because a good number of people that sit at their desk reading Slashdot all day are tech support people. The jobs have the same level of turnover and pay roughly the same in the US, but some people still prefer a shitty low-paying job at a desk to a shitty low-paying job behind a counter or stove, and almost all people would prefer a shitty low-paying job behind a desk to looking for a new job with that shitty low-paying job on their resume.
Re:Free Market Capitalism (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Free Market Capitalism (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Free Market Capitalism (Score:2)
That's what a service economy means! Thanks for clearing that up.
Re:Free Market Capitalism (Score:3, Interesting)
Developers and hardcore engineers typically don't talk as much. As a result management will be happy to cash out on the quiet group. Off shoring them positions else where. I am not saying there is no good developers offshore, I am just saying developers are the easiet social target for management to pick on. Human Resource 101.
Free Markets -vs- Capitalism (Score:3, Interesting)
The United States of America is historically thought of as a having a Capitalist economy with equity markets playing a central position in its economy. But Capitalism, with its implication of a central role for equity markets, is much older than the US and is often thought to have emerged in its modern form in the city-state of Venice in the fifteenth century. The word "bourse" is a French coinage tha
Re:Free Market Capitalism (Score:4, Interesting)
Why is it specifically a `curse' that Americans lose jobs? Those jobs mean people in a much poorer country can finally make a living.
It's a curse for anybody to lose a job.
I certainly agree that the pollution and exploitation represent the worst end of the spectrum.
The fundamental problem with all outsourcing though happens when the country exporting the labor is still not able to develop the local economy. Example, people in india get good jobs programming or doing tech support for U.S. companies. These workers now want the various trappings of geek life and can now afford them. So, they buy all of that from Asia and the U.S. Oops, there goes the local economy. At the same time, their pay has no hope of scaling to the point where those goods have the same real cost to them as they do in the U.S. since as soon as their pay gets to that point, the outsourcing will shift somewhere else, leaving a country full of highly skilled workers who can't find work.
If India really wants to build it's economy on tech, local companies will need to start producing tech with the costs and prices scaled to the local economy. Anything else is just ba dotcom style bubble that is sure to burst just when things start looking really good.
All that said, that doesn't mean the outsourcing is actually BAD for India, it COULD provide the tempory boost needed to bootstrap the local economy. Of course, as soon as that process starts, U.S. corps will try to pull a quick switch and outsource elsewhere before they accidentally fund the company that will later eat their lunch.
Re:Free Market Capitalism (Score:5, Insightful)
Presumably, they dine out more often.
Or, they hire cooks, maids, drivers.
They buy nicer and more clothes, which, even if not manufactured locally, are delivered by local truckers and stevedores and sold by people working in retail outlets.
They build bigger houses and pay more taxes.
Presumably, they give more to charity (based on what I've heard about lower-income and formerly-lower-income people in the U.S. tending to give more to charity than upper-income folks, as a percentage of income).
And, when their countries threaten nuclear war w/each other, the big multinationals call 'em up and say "Friends, we're going to have find another back office if you're going to do that."
So, we're exporting jobs, opportunity, world peace, hope, Mom and apple pie. Who could argue with that? Think of the children!
Ok, so I got progressively more sarcastic in the preceding paragraph, but seriously.... It's like giving blood. You lose some, the other party gets what they need.
That's not to say it isn't painful. And it is sure irritating when you see those gains go into some corrupt person's pocket. But you have to hope humans' universal desire for justice will eventually prevail (and corruption will be eliminated), as more and more countries get with the "civilized society" program. (I equate civilization with compassion, not just politely ripping somebody off.)
Here's another angle on corruption, from the economic point of view: it's friction, isn't it? Businesses would prefer not to pay bribes, I bet. Or rather, they'd prefer to keep their expenses predictable, and not greater than their competitor's expenses (i.e., some semblance of "fair").
So, I think the question is not "how can we stop this?" but rather "how can we help this along, so things become fair more quickly?"
Is it better to say "you can't have our jobs until your environment is clean" or is it better to say "here, have some jobs; now please take your new money and spend some of it on cleaning up your environment and implementing new laws"?
Gee, I hope this wasn't a page of nothing. Sorry if it was.
John.
Re:Free Market Capitalism (Score:3, Insightful)
All of those good things you mentioned are what I would consider part of the bootstrapping. However, just as the dot-com boom was a great booster for delivery truck drivers, and office furnature makers (until the real estate prices drove service people into shelters anyway), and the dot-bomb took it all away (except the real-estate prices), if India doesn't develop that stimulus into a full economy at all levels, it will be sustained only until outsourcing shifts to somewhere cheaper.
How many of those mai
Capitalism (Score:2, Insightful)
The money goes to whoever takes the job for a lesser amount of money.
Re:Capitalism (Score:5, Interesting)
I work for a large corporation and we made a big deal out of the language barrier and complete ineptitude of some of the people on the other end of the phone. Now, we've renewed all of our support and paid extra for the premium level of service. HP/Compaq's call center is in Canada somewhere and IBM's call center actually announces itself on the phone menu:
You're call is now being routed to our support center in Atlanta, Georgia.
If enough consumers made a stink about it, tech support wouldn't be in India for them. Come to think of it, if one of the big PC vendors wanted to get a leg up on the competition, they could advertise "English speaking tech support" as the number one feature of their PCs. They'd be sold out in no time.
Re:Capitalism (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Capitalism (Score:3, Insightful)
How many call centers track the resolution of the issues and customer satisfaction? I would guess it's a very small percentage. Customer satisfaction is the antithesis of the purpose the tech support is there to provide. The reason that good customer service is so hard to find is that people who convince the customer all is lost and they should give
Your name please? (Score:5, Funny)
"OK, Frank, how do you spell that?"
Gah!
Re:Your name please? (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Phonetic alphabet (Score:5, Interesting)
Spend like 10 minutes explaining who you are.
Maybe this will provide the motivation (Score:3, Insightful)
MSFT is very guilty of this (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't use tech support often, but (Score:5, Interesting)
Back to me... I said I don't use tech support much, but my few experiences are mixed. On Aug 9, I wanted to know the exact date that I could expect XP SP2 to hit my lab PCs via AutoUpdates, so I called MS tech support. I talked to a lady who said (in a confident manner), "today!" Well, she was off by a couple of weeks. As usual with support issues, I found better information on the web.
and it's not just the language barrier (Score:5, Insightful)
Ugly Americans (Score:5, Interesting)
I couldn't agree more. I had problems with Earthlink a few months ago after a bad storm had gone through - our DSL was down for most of the day, but I couldn't get a tech to give me a straight answer to my simple question. Eventually, I argued my way to a manager, who still refused to give me a straight answer. By the time I was done, they had lost their "american" accents and were more angry with me than I was with them. We tried calling customer service to get a complaint filed, only to find that the techs I had spoken with never logged any of the calls like they were supposed to, so it was impossible to even attempt to get a free month out of them.
I find that a lot of problems stem from the fact that they refuse to deviate from the scripts that they're given - and won't believe you (with good reason - I know I don't usually believe the useres that I work with) that you've tried all of that already.
Re:Ugly Americans (Score:2)
- Disgruntled former MindSpring employee
Re:Ugly Americans (Score:2, Insightful)
"our DSL was down for most of the day...
so your entitled to a free month why? your DSL died because of a goddamn storm, theres not much tech support can really freaking do. do you call up and bitch at the power companies and demand free electricity when a storm nocks down powerlines and plunges you into darkness for a few minutes to a few hours?
Re:Ugly Americans (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Ugly Americans (Score:3, Insightful)
I find that a lot of problems stem from the fact that they refuse to deviate from the scripts that they're given
I work for a US based call center.
Typically when we're told, "I'm a network administrator! I know what the hell media state: disconnected means! It means something's wrong on YOUR end!" the answer is "Is the PC/Link light on the modem?" followed by, "...no."
It's not that we're not willing to deviate from our pre-determined method of troubleshooting, it's that there are alot of asswads out t
Language is a stupid way to communicate (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Americans speak their own brand of English that's incomprehensible to most of the rest of the world, and vice versa. That goes double for anybody with a regional accent. If I can't understand Mississippian, what chance does somebody from India have?
2) There's a definite technical language gap, irrespective of dialect. Trying to figure out what's actually wrong is usually 90% of handling a call. Your typical electronics consumer only knows that this doohickey isn't doing what he wants it to do.
The dialect-related problems can be solved by having regional call centers, but the technical language gap is a bigger and longer-term problem. As the article says, "We're not going to give you a crash-course in Excel over the phone"... but if the consumer won't give it to himself, he's going to blame the product, the vendor, or the support staff when it doesn't do what he thinks it should.
Give it time (Score:2)
Over time call centres will mature and provide good consistent service independent of location.
By then, voice recognition and text-to-speech technologies and applications will have advanced sufficiently to enable the next generation of call centre, which will employ zero people.
Watching "The Simpsons" finally pays off. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Watching "The Simpsons" finally pays off. (Score:3, Insightful)
May I Suggest (Score:3, Interesting)
again he misses the point though... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm already making plans for my girlfriend and I to move out of california now since it's just too expensive and there are increasingly less and less tech jobs here.
The division seems to be between people who own a home and those who don't. Everyone I see who doesn't own a home here already is struggling and the ones who do are taking vacations. I've pulled out my savings to go on 'vacation' to the east coast to look for work.
Re:again he misses the point though... (Score:3, Interesting)
If IT workers didn't insist on inflated wages, we'd be a lot more happy. The jobs are going overseas as Americans ask for too much money to do what is essentially a basic task. Anyone can program a computer given enough books to read. Anyone can fix computer problems. It's not like it's a gift - IT professionals aren't "chosen
Re:again he misses the point though... (Score:4, Insightful)
Believe me, you'll be happy you did, and not because there are any more tech jobs outside of California than in (though there may be because companies are leaving CA for the same reason people do). Instead, it will simply be because you can actually afford to live on the same (or lesser) pay. At least, as long as you don't move to New York or somewhere with a similarly high cost of living.
The division seems to be between people who own a home and those who don't. Everyone I see who doesn't own a home here already is struggling and the ones who do are taking vacations. I've pulled out my savings to go on 'vacation' to the east coast to look for work.
This is simply because those that own a home either bought at a lower price than is currently demanded, or can actually afford a home at current prices. Even those with homes are often taking out 2nds on their home to live their lives and take their vacations.
Before I left California the paper had a front-page story on a Habitat for Humanity house that was selling for $250K to a qualified low-income buyer, and housing prices have continued to go up since then. For $250K in some areas around here (Hampton Roads, VA) I can have a very nice house on a substantial piece of land, or a nice house on a smaller piece of land (depending on how close I want to be to work, basically; and that smaller piece of land is bigger than anything in a CA suburb).
You get what you pay for (Score:2, Insightful)
If you want service, buy a service contract from someone local. As in come to your home and fix it.
money to be made? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:money to be made? (Score:2, Interesting)
That includes cleaning off all the nastiness, installing either a popup stopper or firefox etc.
Not bad really, getting a machine back up and running in under an hour, having a brew and a chat to the users. Its just a bonus to be paid for doing what I would do anyway.
More dumb users (Score:5, Insightful)
Users are getting dumber and calling tech support for things they shouldn't.
Ever hear of someone calling their ISP to help them clear disk space to install the ISP software?
They can just hang up (frustrated customer)
Or they can help the customer, this is expensive, so get a lower level cheaper tech to do it.
That being said I rarely call tech support for anything other then my ISP is broken. Even then I've just about given up, when I telnet to the smtp port on my mailserver and it replies with an error message, they want me to reboot my computer.
Slashdot Headline Clarity Dropping (Score:2, Funny)
But what the headline is really trying to cmmunicate is that satisfaction with tech support is dropping -- especially overseas tech support -- which might lead to more tech support staff being hired in the U.S.
So should I complain "Slashdot Headline Clarity Dropping", or should I just be grateful it's not a dupe?
VOIP will help because of displays (Score:2)
Documentation from hell (Score:4, Insightful)
I got a CAM program with translation to English. The problem is the translator apparently never used any english program himself, learnt english at school and never had to use it really before the translation. Examples? (with my translations)
Secure Tool - save the tool set to a file.
Save Under
Programme End
Displace - move
Edit Row - (the only way to enter text into project)
Demark - unselect
Adjust position - move point
Size line - measure distance
Clearance - material to be removed by the CNC
No, the program is not an after-hours shareware. It's a multi-thousand-dollar commercial software, a flagship product of the company that makes it. And no, it's not really crappy. The backend is marvelous. It's the frontend and translations that really suck.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Didn't RTFA (Score:2)
Language barriers?! Ha. (Score:2, Informative)
I knew I was in trouble (Score:2, Funny)
Waiting Game (Score:5, Interesting)
Its gotten so bad that I recommend people purchase generic computers rather than suffer the abuse of major name brand computers.
Dell? Are you listening? (Score:4, Insightful)
That said, the ONE thing that made Dell better than the rest was their support. It did't take long before they realized that it was a BAD BUSINESS DECISION to move their corporate support overseas. They moved it back to the U.S. pretty quickly when companies started dumping Dell.
That said, it proves they are aware of the problems it causes -- this is not a surprise to them in the least. The message I get from that fast? They prefer to abuse their users when they think they can get away with it. If you're not a corporate user, they don't care about you. Simple right? They might try to deny it, but their actions speak the loudest.
Is it really the offshoring? (Score:5, Insightful)
What upsets me so much about this is not that Microsoft sucks at writing secure, reliable software but rather that there are so many people that are so willing to exploit it. Considering how many unique exploits there are on Windows XP, I feel that regardless of secure we think that Linux or BSD or Mac OS X may be, that if they had the dominant market share in their current state there would also be a large number of malware apps running wild on those platforms.
When you consider that it takes a significant amount of time to diagnose and resolve malware issues properly over the telephone, it immediately becomes impossible to offer good technical support. Sure, there are other key issues, such as outright hardware failure, but when malware is slowing down the machine average call time automatically increases. So unless your policy is to shaft users (and their data) and tell them to reformat/reinstall/use the restore CD right off the bat, or you are willing to pay what it really takes to have enough reps to help your customers, then there is absolutely no way to provide satisfactory technical support. Not in California, not in Canada, not in India.
HP Customer 'support' (Score:2, Interesting)
There is still one company offering great support (Score:2, Informative)
Re:There is still one company offering great suppo (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to seem trollish but Apple also has a few advantages:
1. Less software means that there is less chances for a third party to screw over the PC.
2. Less virii/adware means less problems to contend with as well as a greater chance of a non-fouled system
3. Most of Apples hardware is from Apple. This also means not having to contend with third party problems
4. Most Apple owners seem to have a very specific use f
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
It's that man again... (Score:2)
"One customer service call can easily take the profit out of a product," says Rob Enderle, an analyst at the Enderle Group in San Jose, Calif."
Lord - is there no newspaper column he's not around to bung a quote in for?
Cheers,
Ian
HP off-shored people are bad too (Score:2)
The second time, the people on the phone were even WORSE. Then, they shipped the return box to an old address. This was after THEY confirmed my address was correct, so they very clearly knew the
It's the knowledge, not the accent. (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is not whether the person on the phone has a detectable accent or a professional demeanor. The problem is that for the last five years, tech support people, foreign or domestic have been human versions of Clippy. Only with fewer preprogrammed answers. The problem is that in so many cases they appear to be reading from a top forty FAQ sheet and cannot solve any problem that the average user can't solve themselves.
I'm happy with anyone who actually solves my problem, and I'll be most other customers are, too.
Re:It's the knowledge, not the accent. (Score:4, Insightful)
That means that fully half of the questions are answered by reading off that sheet. Now, if 1/2 of your job can be done for you by reading the appropriate line off of a piece of paper, aren't you going to read that line? More to the point, if you're paying someone to do a job that, about 1/2 the time can be done by reading a known solution off of a piece of paper, aren't you going to insist that they read that line first?
Sure, there are people out there with legitimate problems. They need legitimate solutions. If there was a way to filter the idiots out of the call queue so tech support could help the ones that actually need help (as opposed to the ones that need help reading) I'm sure they'd do it. As is, we're all at the mercy of the horde of vindictive idiots who insist that nothing can possibly be wrong with [insert product here] because it was working yesterday. Of course it was working yesterday; if it hadn't been working yesterday they'd have called in YESTERDAY. What changed? It broke! What's so hard to understand about this?
Tech support suffers because of marketing and feature envy. People want the newest, fastest, latest whiz-bang contraption out there. Even my mother, who hasn't the faintest clue how to perform even the most basic functions with a PC is talking about how great a tablet PC would be. We introduce more and more complex devices to people who have fundamentally no idea what they're doing with them and then are surprised when they can't make them work!
You don't buy a $4,000 amp for your first stereo. You don't buy a Ferrari Testerosa for your kid to learn to drive on. You don't teach a newly hired cook to make baked Alaska before he can make a grilled cheese sandwich. Why do we believe this doesn't hold up for computers?
Cost (Score:3, Informative)
IT support, admin and helpdesks, Bill's legacy (Score:5, Insightful)
I think Microsoft is largely to blame. When people leaving school suddenly awakened to the fact that you don't just get handed a well paying job, Microsoft were pushing MSCE, etc. on the technically challenged masses.
In the end only Microsoft gained. The masses eventually got paid less because of the laws of supply and demand, but still companies felt that they were bestowed with armies of skilled people certified 'smart' by Microsoft.
Actually the armies of idiots might be the one thing that gives Microsoft staying power in companies. Migrate to Linux? Unless you re-hire your whole IT department you are in big troubles.
At least your department will be much smaller.
If you cannot even manage something you are certified for, what about something that actually requires a brain. Now make that idiot a manager and it becomes impossible.
I must apologize for using 'idiot', its a relative thing. I am smart in technology, but an idiot when it comes to stuff like financial investment, legal matters, fixing cars, etc. See, no harm done.
Now helpdesk personnel need to be patient. Thats where the Filipino's shine, pleasant and patient, but not very smart on the technical stuff no matter what they tell themselves.
I guess its a catch 22, very few tech savvy people will work in a helpdesk. Maybe it will be the first true mass market for good AI?
Re:IT support, admin and helpdesks, Bill's legacy (Score:5, Insightful)
The state of "mainstream" IT in the U.S. seems to be more systematic than anything. Business owners and their advisors have gotten it into their head that "official" certifications are what qualifies one for a position, not actual technical knowledge. It functions the same way as the U.S. education system; some of the DUMBEST people I've known were straight A students, but I'm sure with an educational record as "impressive" as a college degree and even graduate school (*shudder*) they'll have no trouble at all finding a job or getting into college/graduate school. Colleges are just making a killing by riding on the blind faith business managers give to college degrees. So is Microsoft. Don't blame them; blame your boss(es).
Attitude, knowledge, language and poor phone conne (Score:3, Interesting)
I called Dell technical support. I initially had a terrible connection. One assumes the IP telephone technology wasn't working well at that point. Even when I tried back and went through all the menus again, the volume was low. I had to ask 3 times to get the person to speak up.
The next problem was that the people you get know very little. I'm a very expert computer user. The operator refused to listen to me when I described the problem and insisted on going through a checlkist of stuff about installing anti-virus, patches, etc. It was very aggrevating and they are not traied to recognize people who have expertise and not trivial problems.
The person's attitude was one of uncertainty and confusion at each step. They literally disappeared for 3-5 minutes at each step. I assume this was to read a document and then ask someone else what it meant. Very annoying. When I tried to discuss things they clearly could only reread the script. When I asked if there was someone more expert they said we had to go through the steps first.
I'm sure they were following procedure, but my problem was a hardware problem. I knew it and that was the issue that they agreed to after 30 minutes of wasting my time. I tried early in the call to just get to the hardware discussion, but had to give up and go through stupid questions and a variety of time wasting steps.
Finally, there was the launguage / accent problem. The person's English was passable and the accent was heavy and made udnerstanding difficult at times.
overall, I hated the experience. I will look for alternatives to Dell with US based support for my next purchases, including my $500K+ of corporate purchases.
The basic problem with tech support (Score:5, Interesting)
Tech support is generally a low-paid entry level job. Many people in tech support aren't there to make a career, they are there simply because they need some kind of job. (It always amused me when I was a teenager looking for entry-level jobs how it always said 'Why are you applying for a job at company X?' and you had to write some BS-filled 'go forward' corporate speak response on how the company is so wonderful, and how it'll be the start of a long career etc. when the genuine answer is simply 'because I need the money'.)
Generally, the people in tech support will not have a clue and don't care to have a clue; they just want to collect their paycheck. Those with a clue would never do tech support even if you doubled their salary because the job is utterly stultifying.
I have worked in a small call centre (12 positions). Fortunately, it *was not* tech support, but railway information. But even there we had the same problem: the job really demanded someone who knew geography well and had an interest in the railways, and the majority of people there just wanted a paycheck. Turnover was fast - it was rare that anyone stayed in the call centre for more than 6 months before leaving the company or finding a job somewhere else in the company. The trouble is there was quite a bit of knowledge you needed to do the job well thanks to the byzantine fare structure and the complex geography of the national railway network, and usually at 6 months the person was just getting competent and fast at doing the job - and they'd go and leave. I would imagine tech support isn't much different.
Re:The basic problem with tech support (Score:3, Insightful)
Dont blame the Indians (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem has nothing to do with where call centers are located but rather who's doing the work on the phone with you. All good support personnel should be trained in "standard" American English to help avoid ambiguity, since everyone can understand the version of English you hear on the CNN or other standard media outlets, even if you dont' normally speak that way.
I myself work with customers on the phone and make a point of suppressing my slight New York accent and not using any slang that might not be clear.
It's difficult enough trying to bridge the gap between technical and non-technical people without a 2-way language barrier getting in the way. A support rep should be able to decipher people's accents, within reason and should be trained in speaking a relatively standard form of the language they are providing support in.
This doesn't just apply to English, but also Spanish. We have support rep where I work who is responsible for helping spanish speaking customers. When on the phone with a customer she speaks "standard" spanish that you would usually hear on Telemundo or Univision. There is a definite difference between the dialect she speaks on the phone and what she uses when she's on the phone with her husband for example.
Partly customer's own fault? (Score:4, Insightful)
If customers don't vote with their wallets then why should Dell/Sony/HP et al. care about good customer support (from the POV of a business)? The idea of good customer support is to build loyalty but the average computer buyer doesn't consider support important at all when buying stuff as they will just get their nearest geek to fix it for them and they don't want to pay the extra money for good support as they want it as cheap as possible. Then from a financial POV to the business, it's just an annoying expense they have to have that doesn't add anything to the bottom line (since customers don't seem to be deserting them in droves or making purchasing decisions based on customer support reputation) and so it makes sense (from a financial POV) to do it as cheaply as possible even if it is crap.
Just A Natural Consequence (Score:4, Insightful)
While companies could try to better train their workers, I think that with respect to foreign language skills a limit is being reached. That is, even if the person in the call center understands English perfectly, they may still have an accent when speaking it that a U.S. customer will have a hard time with. I personally like accents, but Indian accented English is one of the most difficult for me to understand. I usually have to know the person for a while to fully understand what they are saying. Unfortunately, an already upset customer in the U.S. is not likely to have the patience for that.
English better for college labs, tech support (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, lo and behold, computer companies are finally realizing that it's hard for people who may or may not be good at computers, to receive Tech support from someone who barely speaks English.
You'd think that fall into the realm of common sense, but then again, most universities don't care that their TA's hardly speak English, so why should computer companies care?
Tech Support is a LOSS Leader (Score:3, Insightful)
I managed a Computer Store for 3 years, and developed a reputation of being able to solve problems. This brought the customers in and kept them coming back, and telling friends that also came in. My business was selling parts, so I gave information away for free. This produced great sales and great rapport with the clients. Not for any reason other than the solutions were explained, the language was without accent(other than a Southern Drawl), and the recommended solutions WORKED. It increased sales because the clients understood that any problems would be resolved Fairly.
I left that position to work for a Software Company as the Technical Support Manager. This is when Problems became " Issues " and my team of techs also had to make Sales Calls, and after a time were instructed to SELL more than Fix. Time on the phone was rated, solutions were dropped down to quick fixes to get them off the line and get to the next person. Towards the end of my tenure a 900 help line was implemented, and the company went to EMAIL or 900 calls ONLY. They never understood why Technical Support costs them money, and couldn't MAKE money. No matter how many times I tried to explain that SUPPORT should be given freely, as the clients have already PAID for the product (At least for the version they bought). Soon it broke down to releases being rushed (almost a year before they were even ready) because the stock holders wanted to cash out. The Product and the company later went under, in part due to the Internet boom ("Everything on the Net Should be FREE!!") and partially due to no support being given to ANY product without a signed and paid contract.
Technical Support taught me more about human nature than I cared to know. It also taught me that when someone BUYS something, they should be able to call the manufacturer and get support when the product fails. These days it seems that it is easier and cheaper to just replace the product (meaning spending money for a replacement) Rather than fight through the Technical Support nightmare (Language barriers DO affect SALES. ) or the non-solutions provided because the person on the other end of the phone has no clue what it is you are talking about.
When I buy a car or a major appliance, and there is a recall or a problem, I take it back to the dealer where I purchased it to get it repaired. If I have a question on how something on that vehicle or appliance I call that same dealer. They sold it, they shoudl REPRESENT it, at least if they want me to buy from them again. I consider any purchase over $100 a MAJOR purchase. I shouldn't have to go through a translator to get an issue resolved. I shouldn't be talking to Hamir in India when I bought the product downtown at Sears or Best Buy. I should and EXPECT to get the problem solved ASAP rather than say "Oh, thats just how it works, and I have to live with it".
Computers are the ONLY industry where being treated properly (sure, its because of my ignorance I am asking a QUESTION) and with respect to being a CUSTOMER is not required. It has been this way for Years and is only getting worse. Companies in the Industry don't feel they OWE the customer anything, because we have become a Nation/World of consumers. THX1138 anyone? Its turned into a "Brave New World".
Re:Why use tech support? (Score:5, Funny)
And illustrations.
And GUIs.
And they probably love Clippy, too.
"Ooh! Look! My little paperclip friend is back! Brandy, come look! Say 'hi', Clippy!"
"Oh, cuuuuuuute!"
USA Today Levels Dropping (Score:3, Funny)
And illustrations.
And GUIs.
And they probably love Clippy, too.
"Ooh! Look! My little paperclip friend is back! Brandy, come look! Say 'hi', Clippy!"
"Oh, cuuuuuuute!"
I think it was Dave Barry who accused USA Today of being the direct descendant of Weekly Reader.
Re:Why use tech support? (Score:2)
More importantly, it has to be in colour.
Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy (Score:3, Interesting)
The usual fix normally ends up as an E-Mail.
Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy (Score:2)
Southern England accents are impossible. (Score:3, Interesting)
As an interesting aside, most call centres in the UK are in Scotland, because people perceive Scottish accents as educated and authoratative. English accents are, apparently, too annoying to be much good for call centres. Strange but true.
Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy (Score:2, Insightful)
if you don't want to speak or type properly that's fine but you live with the consequences.
Still being a complete dumbass, I see. It's called a "dialect". Look it up super-retardio brother [google.com].
In fact, I hate to tell you, but unless you're speaking the original English language, which you're not, you are using a dialect. I suppose then, that any communication barriers you hit with other English-speakers are your fault, right?
Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy (Score:2, Interesting)
I live in Ireland a reletivly small country and I have sometimes have difficulty understanding people from different regions!
Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy (Score:3, Insightful)
you should always speak in the most clear and correct way when making a non-personal phone call, including additional redundancy e.g. "A for apple".
Uhhh, On Monday, I tried my best to speak with as little slang, and as little of an accent as I could, and I still couldn't make myself clear to Ghumpta in New Delhi, because that's where Dell happened to have moved their support to. It too me having to make Ghumpta repeat himself six times in order to make heads and tails of what he was trying to tell me.
Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy (Score:5, Funny)
Heh. Cockney rhyming tech support.
"What? No, no, I don't *have* a Mac, I have a PC! What? NO! I have *one* broken *Windows* computer! Why do you keep talking about Apples in pairs? And no, I do *not* think this should be lemon squeezy! Give me your manager! No, dammit! Not the *governor!* GAAAAAH!"
Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy (Score:3, Interesting)
It should be noted that such a problem is not inherent to tech support centers overseas. A representative from Vermont may have just as much trouble understandi
Re:Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy (Score:3, Funny)
Lahf is lahk a box a choc'lates, you nevva know whut you gonna git.
Re:AOL and Indians (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't have any problem with any person in the world providing the support. I don't care what country they're from, really. But I do expect two things from them:
1. They should be proficient in the basic responsibilities of their job.
2. They should be understandable.
Unfortunately, finding a support rep that meets even one of those qualifications seems to be quite the accomplishment for most companies.
steve