Hydrogen Vehicle Generates Its Own Fuel 662
An anonymous reader writes "Our friends at The Arizona Republic have the scoop: 'The truck is hydrogen-powered and creates its own fuel from solar energy and water, a technical feat that rivals the advanced technology being researched by major auto companies and universities. The four-cylinder engine is tuned to run on hydrogen, which is produced by a hand-built electrolysis system mounted in the bed.' You can also help this project."
Conflict of interest? (Score:5, Interesting)
Recycling fuel is anathema to the petroleum industry--BP commercials ("it's a start") aside.
Re:It's near performance already (Score:5, Interesting)
Showing my ignorance (Score:3, Interesting)
I keep wondering why solar can't provide some of this. Build a series of solar panels, collect water (say from a local river), break down the water into H2+O, let the latter out into the air and keep the former for fuel.
Is solar not strong enough/inconsistent enough for such an endeavor? Sure, you'd need a large area with a local water supply (again, a river might be nice), and probably a backup generator for when there wasn't enough sunlight, but overall you'd probably have a very efficient and low-pollution system.
Though perhaps there are engineering issues I'm not aware of. Any energy geeks out there want to help me out?
Re:It's near performance already (Score:5, Interesting)
He had a hard time getting his truck to pass emissions at first since the exhaust was so much cleaner than the air around the test station. The machine just said he registered "off the scale". Finally got a waiver from the state.
Hydrogen to Methane Converter? (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems to me the thing we need is a hydrogen to methane (natural gas) converter.
The widely acknowledged problem with hydrogen is the storage density stinks. The tank is too big and too pressurized for safety, size, and weight concerns.
This vehicle, and many other applications, would be well suited to having a hydrogen to methane converter. Many existing fleets use natural gas in their ONLY SLIGHTLY MODIFIED internal combustion engines.
Methane is CH4, a fairly simple molecule; could we come up with a carbon source to use here? Ethane is C2H6, etc.
Likewise, there are Nitrogen compounds to use. Can someone in chemical engineering comment on the possiblities here of creating more energy-dense storage using some kind of catalyst and raw H or H2 hydrogen?
why not just connect to the power grid? (Score:4, Interesting)
True but now chance a few things (Score:3, Interesting)
So what you got? Free fuel when you park the car at your house. Will enough be generated? Well depending on the money and eviromental cost of the setup it might make a difference not just because of less fuel consumed but also in less fuel consumed getting the fuel to you.
A few miles isn't that impressive yet but if you can save a few liters of bought fuel per day it might start to add up.
Re:Why convert electricity to H (Score:3, Interesting)
instead of a land-based vehicle (Score:3, Interesting)
Given the right design, a blimp has a very large surface to put solar panels on, and it can fly above the clouds for optimal sun exposure.
Now, cue the Hindenberg jokes...
Re:It's near performance already (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It's near performance already (Score:3, Interesting)
My car is already solar powered. (Score:1, Interesting)
My car simply takes that stored energy from the ground and uses that very densely stored energy in its gas tank.
Stored solar energy at its finest!
Great, but the problem now is storing energy. (Score:4, Interesting)
But hey, there are easier ways to make cars less polluting and everyone less dependent on oil! Take alcohol for example, you can produce it cheaply, even in your own backyard from some potatoes or grain, it is way easier and safer to handle than hydrogen and typical car engine can be easily modified to run on it. Same applies to vegetable oils and diesel engine (which was originally designed for vegetable oil).
Re:It's near performance already (Score:3, Interesting)
I LOVE this from their faq: (Score:5, Interesting)
Answer: NO. First of all, the idea of building a solar-hydrogen internal combustion vehicle is neither new or original. As far as we know, nobody has built one before this since the production rate of hydrogen is so low. Secondly, one of our main goals is to promote this technology, and contribute to this field without putting any restrictions on others.
Ok, It's Satire, But.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not sustainable? (Score:3, Interesting)
I drive 8 miles to work in the morning, and 8 miles home in the afternoon. I might go 5 miles out of my way to go to church. If I schedule my grocery shopping, that's only 2 miles down the road. Suburbanite living sounds like a fine application for such a vehicle.
I'll probably stick with my 27 MPG CR-V for as long as I can have it for longer days, but the above consists of about 75% of my miles during a given week.
Re:It's near performance already (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not sustainable? (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the advantages of current cars is that it can be run essentially indefinitely, only stopping once every ~5 hours, and then only for ~5 minutes.
The other problem is that the most common and significant period of "down time" for the car is when it's parked overnight, which is also exactly when parking it doesn't help at all.
No matter how rationally compelling a system such as this would be for the common driving habits of almost everyone (drive to work, park the car for ~9 hours, drive home, park the car for ~12 hours), very few people will buy a car that they can't just get in and drive to a different state (never mind that they haven't done that with their gasoline-engine cars in two decades).
So yes, your point is well-taken. But I think that's how you have to look at alternative-energy cars, if you seriously want them adopted into the marketplace.
OTOH, perhaps I'm overly pessimistic.
(In either case, though, you're right insofar as I should have stated that assumption. Sorry about that)
Transition strategy? (Score:2, Interesting)
If we started out with switchable IC engines, then people could buy the cars as long as there was some chance of using hydrogen part of the time - regular gas would always be available for backup. I bet the state of California would be interested in conceding some CAFE (do they still use that?) points to manufacturers who came out with such vehicles.
Re:It's near performance already (Score:3, Interesting)
If it is too dangerous to bike, it is probably too dangerous to drive also. Bikes can be fitted with studded tires that dig into the ice.
Also, if it is only a few miles a day, walking is an adequate substitute, in any temperature.
The best practical use I can see for this is hauling large amounts of goods short distances.
X Prize? (Score:4, Interesting)
- the first gasoline engine to give 100mpg (sustained) in normal driving conditions (heck, even a highway) for a medium-sized sedan.
- First electric car that can take 4 adults 300miles on 4 hours of charge
etc.
Some good-old competition combined with good-old American ingenuity should do wonders for these projects.
Re:It's near performance already (Score:2, Interesting)
Diesel-Electric? (Score:2, Interesting)
So what are the barriers preventing a setup like this from working? Is it simply more efficient to drive the wheels directly from the engine? Would the generator/electric motor add too much weight to the vehicle in order to achieve similar performance levels?
It is still using electricity (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:It's near performance already (Score:5, Interesting)
Hydrogen powered cars aren't that new of an idea, really -- it's simply a case of the percieved 'safety' of having hydrogen in a vehicle. Most people remember something about the Hindenberg exploding, and know it was filled with hydrogen. Nevermind the blimp was coated with aluminum oxide -- one of the oxidizers in the Shuttle's Rocket Boosters, and a key ingredient for Thermite. So there is this irrational 'fear' of hydrogen when compared to gasoline. That irrational fear is one of the largest hurdles to hydrogen powered cars. The other is getting the hydrogen (solar power->hydrogen is much less cost effective than wind turbine->hydrogen.)
A far more practical idea is to have a regular fuel tank holding Hydrogen, and then have your home covered with solar cells to convert water to hydrogen (and oxygen). Even BETTER is to have gas stations that provide Hydrogen, and use electrical sources like wind to provide energy for electolysis. (This is the idea that most engineers are following. Photovoltaic->Hydrogen generation is simply too inefficient, and MUCH more expensive.)
The electrolyzing equipment (as well as photovoltaics, etc.) adds unnecessary weight, bulk, and complexity to the vehicle, greatly reducing the efficiency and reliability of the vehicle.
It's sorta like the Unix mantra: Lots of little tools that are very good at their single job -- not a huge app that combines them all. You don't want to put unnecessary equipment on the car -- putting the fuel generating source ON the vehicle makes about as much sense as putting a machine shop inside the vehicle. Sure, you can make replacement parts 'on the spot', but it sure is a waste when you're driving.
Believe it or not, this is also true when driving the vehicle with electrolyzing equipment onboard -- the amount of H2 it generates at any given moment is inconsequential to the amount burned. It's certainly not enough to extend the operating time by more than a few seconds on the average daily commute.
Re:Well... (Score:1, Interesting)
Indeed! And bizarrely enough the morons in Tucson squander quite a bit of their ground water on golf courses. The last projection I saw said they had about 20 years of ground water left at current utilization.
But they'll have golf courses and pecan orchards, dammit!
Re:It's near performance already (Score:3, Interesting)
Most definitely. I live in Ottawa Canada, which is recognized as the second coldest national capital [greatestcities.com]. Believe me, in the deepest darkest coldest parts of winter there are die-hards still commuting to work with studded tires and good storm gear.
Never underestimate what the die-hard group of cyclists will do. Once in the middle of a blizzard I rolled down my window at a stop light and expressed my awe to a rider I'd seen every single day for months -- this man was out in -20C weather with fresh snow falling, and he was completely unphased by it.
Re:Ok, It's Satire, But.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, Tour de France riders run at this sort of level.
If your stomach/intestine didn't absorb all the calories in your food,
Hmmm, no. Humans are quite capable of passing un-needed calories through undigested. Not as high a percentage as McDonald's-snarfing Americans might like, but...
Hydrogen has its problems (Score:3, Interesting)
We'd do much better exploring biodiesel [unh.edu] than trying to pursue solar/hydrogen as a fuel system.
From the article:And that's not including the subject of efficiency. Solar/hydrogen is extremely inefficient.It's a neat project - I'll grant that easily. However, the end result is that at this time, it's just not feasible.
However, biodiesel is competetive (or close to competetive) with diesel at today's prices. It requires NO modification to your car (assuming your car runs diesel, of course) and can be mixed freely with diesel.
So, there's no penalty for using biodiesel. That's where the money should be put!
Re:It's near performance already (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It's near performance already (Score:1, Interesting)
Personally, I'd be more worried about having a lot of concentrated oxygen left over from splitting the water apart. Many things are kept from becoming explosive because they don't have enough oxygen nearby to continue the reaction.
Re:It's near performance already (Score:3, Interesting)
People are not afriad of hydrogen because of the Hindenberg any more than they are afraid of gasoline because of the world trade center. Hydrogen is not used as a motor fuel because it is expensive to make and difficult to store. My fears of a hydrogen powered car have to do with storing a gas at 10,000 psi. Even an inert gas would be dangerous at the kind of pressures required to get hydrogen to a useful energy density.