The Tech Support Generation 574
prostoalex writes "Newsweek technology columnist Brad Stone is looking forward to the Thanksgiving dinner with his family next week, spending time in candle-lit rooms, preparing holiday shopping lists and... let's admit it - fixing the folks' computer. 'We are the Tech-Support Generation. Our job is to troubleshoot the complex but imperfect technology that befuddle mom and dad, veterans of the rotary phone, the record player and the black-and-white cabinet television set. Next week, on our annual pilgrimage home, we'll turn our Web-trained minds and joystick-conditioned fingers to the task of rescuing our parents from bleeding-edge technology on the blink', Brad Stone writes. In related news, what other products besides Google Desktop Search, Spybot Search & Destroy, Google Toolbar and Service Pack 2 are Slashdotters installing on their parents' Windows machines?"
Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:3, Informative)
I installed Firefox on my Mom's machine after Homeland Security's announcement [fcw.com]recommending switching to alternative browsers from IE. She had major problems getting Turbo Lister to run correctly and apparently it was a known incompatibility. So I unin
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:4, Funny)
>>talk to me about how your mom needs to use IE
>>for some stupid secondary app
You want to talk back to my mom? Be my guest.
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:3, Informative)
DON'T use it unless you're prepared to reinstall when it botches the job (installing IE doesn't fix it all up).
Better advice... set your IE proxy server to a nonexistent address. then it just won't work, esp. when security vulnerabilities try to get it to do something nasty.
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, it's one of the few reasons I switched.
Canadians, we're obsessed with the weather.
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:5, Funny)
Why do you need an app on your computer to tell you the weather? Wouldn't a static text box saying "It's cold!" be sufficient?
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Firefox & Thunderbird (Score:3, Funny)
Unless you have my parents. They trust NOTHING that I do on the computer yet they have always refered to me as the 'little computer nerd', they would send me to thier friends houses to fix problems with a windows box but I was running a vic20 and C=64 at the time, they ask me for phone support, but as soon as we get started they hand the phone to someone else in the house that can 'understand' me, like I speak in some alien language that is completely
Surely? (Score:5, Funny)
Debian
Re:Surely? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Surely? (Score:2)
You have no idea how quickly I moved to RH8. Gentoo now though.
Re:Surely? (Score:2, Informative)
Bob! (Score:4, Interesting)
SP2 sucks, don't go near it. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm reasonably happy with XP+SP1, but SP2 was a giant step backward.
hmm... (Score:2)
Re:hmm... (Score:2, Informative)
What other products... (Score:5, Funny)
> Google Desktop Search, Spybot Search & Destroy,
> Google Toolbar and Service Pack 2 are Slashdotters
> installing on their parents' Windows machines?"
GNU/Linux
Re:What other products... (Score:2)
-Frank
Re:What other products... (Score:3, Funny)
they are slooow (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:they are slooow (Score:5, Insightful)
"So, now you are all set. Just click ok and you're off!"
"Just... Click... Ok."
"Yes, but WHY do I have to click ok? Can't it just work? I don't understand why this is so complicated."
Aarg! Or how about that situation where you are working with someone (doesn't have to be a parent, colleagues are great for this), and they keep repeating the same improbable method for doing something. For example, they are copying data from one Excel sheet to another, ONE BLOODY CELL AT A TIME, using the MOUSE AND MENU to select the copy and paste operations. But the worst of all is: for some reason between each copy and paste they let go of the mouse and reach over to the keyboard to switch between sheets. And all the cells they are copying are in the same column. And there are over 400 of them...
Re:they are slooow (Score:5, Insightful)
After this, show them that they can do multiple cells between sheets, still using menu copy/paste, and still highlighting the same way, and flipping sheets the same way. Let them practice this one change a few times.
Then show them ctrl-c and ctrl-v, and let them practice several times.
Then show them other ways to highlight, and let them practice.
My problem is that I must resist taking the mouse from her. I must let her practice each thing several times so that SHE understands, and so that I don't have to do it for her every time.
We all have learning curves, and if we have good teachers, they are easier. A good example is worth infinatly more than an RTFM.
None of the above (Score:5, Funny)
They have Macs!
Re:None of the above (Score:3, Interesting)
tried that and Macs aren't the solution (Score:3, Interesting)
Unfortunately, they still require a lot of work to support: printing has all sorts of problems, software tries to update itself and fails, Apple software tells you to buy the next version, etc. The Macintosh UI is remarkably unintuitive unless you are a Mac-head. Macs are a little better than Windows overall, but mostly just because they have bits and pieces of UNIX left in
Re:tried that and Macs aren't the solution (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, it's hard in two ways. First, one one machine, the automatic updates are failing with no clear indication why. Second, Macintosh Software Update only updates Apple software; you yourself still have to worry about all the third party applications.
It sounds to me that the problem you have is not that your parents don't know enough about MacOS X, but that you know next to nothing about it.
Indeed
Re:tried that and Macs aren't the solution (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm surprised that someone who's ready to install Linux on a Box for "ease of use" hasn't learned just a touch more about OSX. (most linux geeks I know are computer geeks in general, and like to learn about everything they can).
I've set up numerous folks with both Windows machines and Macs. These are completely computer ignorant users. I've had far less trouble with the Mac users than the Windows
Re:tried that and Macs aren't the solution (Score:3, Insightful)
More than what? I dug into Netinfo, have written a bunch of small Cocoa apps, written some AppleScript, dealt with forked files, installed Fink, and all that. I still can't figure out how to make software update work on one of the machines or fix sporadic printing problems on the other.
(most linux geeks I know are computer geeks in general, and like to learn about everything th
Ack, don't remind me. (Score:5, Interesting)
I won't let them use Windows purely because it would get trashed with spyware, adware and trojans, instead, they get a Slack 10 / KDE install and a nice low UID user with SSHd setup so I can log in as root remotely and fix anything if needed, and easily upgrade and install applications and the kernel.
I don't know enough about windows to support it! (Score:5, Interesting)
So, instead, I have a standing offer. Anyone in my family who's sick of viruses and spyware and the other ills of Windows can get my help setting up and maintaining a Linux box. So far, only my completely-computer-illiterate aunt has taken me up on it (after a major fight with viruses), but she's been so happy with the results that I think some others may come around soon.
Re:I don't know enough about windows to support it (Score:4, Interesting)
my sister uses debian, and I visit her every 4 or 6 months, and everything is in the same good state as before: she writes documents in openoffice, prints then, downloads videos with mldonkey, watches them with mplayer, burns them with k3b.
but she wants games for her son - so I allowed debian to dualboot with win95 (grub). and I don't touch win95 on her computer at all. She uses a husband of her friend for that. He reinstalls it every few months, to get the games running :>
I don't have time to run wine with directx support on her box, heck I even didn't done that on my machine, let alone someone's else machine.
I know enough about Windows to not support it! (Score:3, Funny)
Oh sure, they do the same to me. My brother refuses to help me maintain my nuclear reactor, even though I know he could do it with one hand tied behind his back.
what will I be installing? (Score:2, Informative)
Suse 9.1 on my parents hp.
Also on my friend's computer i built for him a couple years ago.
They use office/internet. That's it.
Why use windows? A few pros. Many, many cons.
Work for an ISP (Score:5, Interesting)
IE6sp1 full
IE55 full
IE517 full
IE_Reinstall_bat (batch file that reinstalls ie using run dll)
IE secure site fix
Winxpsp2
winxp winsock fix (rebuilds winsock using registry)
winxp individual critical fixes
Ad-aware
Ad-aware/spybot definitions
Spybot
Coolweb killer? removal? Shredder? Can't remember offhand
AVG anti-virus (highly recommended)
McAfee AVERT stinger (even more highly recommended)
norton's varius virus removal tools (fix sobig, fix blaster, etc)
Win2k Sp4
Firefox
Thunderbird
Re:Work for an ISP (Score:4, Insightful)
3 things (Score:5, Funny)
Firefox
That Gator thing I love so much
Not the toolbar! (Score:3, Insightful)
I dont install that on anything. Not because there is anything bad about it, but because then you can't disable "Third party browser enhancements" in IE... Which means that it's even easier for spyware to get in. (Yes I know this doesn't disable BHOs...)
Why bother with a windows machine? (Score:3, Interesting)
Show your parents you love them. Buy them an iMac. (And get it used..they're cheap and reliable and all they need.)
PC Anywhere, of course. (Score:2)
Freeware (Score:2)
AVG Antivirus (grisoft.com)
IrfanView (irfanview.com) for viewing
Firefox 1.0 (mozilla.org) since it's more secure than IE and they won't know the difference
Other faves I use but couldn't palm off on them...
Pegasus Mail (pmail.com)
Shortkeys (shortkeys.com) - text macro utility (*great* when I'm doing helpdesk queues at work)
- G
I usually get flamed for this (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe it comes from having a really large extended family of people who just don't want to know how computers should/shouldn't work, but it's just too much sometimes. Strictly my mother and sister now, nobody else.
Re:I usually get flamed for this (Score:5, Funny)
Same thing here... (Score:5, Interesting)
Usually, people think a computer is like a wash machine. They refuse to learn, they just want to push the button and it should work; if it breaks, call the mech. My mother lost several times files because she didn't take the pain to save them on a floppy disk or on a CD-ROM.
Well, after a few weeks like that, I finally told her that in order to drive a car, you need a licence, you don't ask others to come over and drive your car each time you want to go to the supermarket.
On the bright side, my 90 year-old grandfather has bought a computer last summer, and I spent a week during holidays teaching him how to use the basics of mail, wordprocessing, saving, printing and net surfing. We wrote together a complete 12 pages course together (with screen prints), and I'm proud to say that he can use these tools alone now.
Re:Same thing here... (Score:3, Interesting)
Sim
Re:I usually get flamed for this (Score:5, Funny)
Be grateful
Re:I usually get flamed for this (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I usually get flamed for this (Score:5, Interesting)
Since then, the beautiful internet has taught them lessons I could never have taught. My sis got a ton of browser hijacks and adware on her system, so bad that she contemplated getting a new system, until I finally gave in and cleaned it up for her, along with installing Firefox.
My Mom refused to use webmail for "problem" email recipients who spam her with dumb jokes, and finally got stung with 4 days of unreleating virus alerts generated by emails coming in on her POP account from a distant family member who is both a prolific joke spammer, and a really careless web user.
The person got a couple of email viruses and all hell broke loose with family across the country. I had to set up a new pop account for her, and set forwarding of her old pop to her Yahoo account. Second email addy she's had to bail on because of spam and knuckle head family members.
<AOL> (Score:3, Insightful)
All smiles, nods, agreement. Not a single person acted on this though.
I gave up when I realised that most people simply Do Not Learn the "easy" way.
Re:I usually get flamed for this (Score:3, Interesting)
With these two rules, I rarely have to do any recovery work. Most of what I now do is teaching. Oh, and I told her not to use IE or Outlook under any circumstances
Re:I usually get flamed for this (Score:5, Interesting)
I stopped doing that stuff years ago. It just ain't worth the hassle.
Typical genuine scenarios that have contributed to my attitude...
- As you've mentioned, folks whining for help before even attempting to solve their own problem
- When they stop offering any kind of token reward or payment (some never offer anything in the first place), regardless of whether you normally accept such gifts. It's not so bad if it's a two minute job, but some of these morons are so convinced of your passion for IT
problem-solving that they think it's perfectly reasonable for you to spend half a day in their spare room without so much as a cup of tea and
a biscuit
- When they start recommending you to their friends and handing out your number
- When they start with "my neighbour's brother is having trouble..."
- When the "problem" is clearly a veiled request for you to obtain a pirated copy of AutoCAD for them
- "My graphics card has gone faulty. You must have done something to it when you upgraded my hard drive in March" (i.e. they want you to buy and fit them a new card, cos it's your fault that it's busted)
- Asking for advice and then ignoring it ("don't buy it at Dixons", "You'll need more memory than that", "D-Link sucks", "Ethernet is better
than USB for networking", "You should really have some Antivirus", etc.)
- "Selective memory" when, after ignoring your advice, they experience an expensive problem
- When they call you at 21:30 on Christmas Eve with a computer problem
- They decide to save money by building their own system, except that they want you to spec it up, price it up, order the bits (they'll pay you back once it's working), take delivery of the bits and, of course, build it
- You get into the office and find that some ancient filthy hulk of a home PC has been deposited on your desk chair - with a note vaguely
describing a problem, specifying the day that it needs to be fixed by, and warning you against losing any of their (unspecified) data. Lots of
exclamation marks, and a smiley face at the bottom
- When they happen to be a millionaire but they won't upgrade their Amstrad 1640 and dot matrix printer
- They start forwarding every hoax virus warning to you, merely adding a "?" to the top
- They want you to arrange for them to no longer receive any spam
- They show up unannounced at the front door brandishing a laptop that they found at some car boot sale or something. They invite themselves in
and won't leave until you take a look at it. It almost seems to be your fault when it turns out to be missing some vital part - you know, like
the charger or the battery. They get mad at *you* when you tell them how much the replacement part is likely to cost for their lovely "new" £10
laptop
- They haven't got a CD burner, but they know that you have
- They *have* got a burner, but can't be arsed to learn how to work Nero
- They have access to at least a dozen spotty little geeks who are capable of hooking their new Deskjet up, but they still come to you
- They have a novel requirement - say ripping-off audio tapes to CD and scanning, resizing and printing the case inserts. You know that if you
listen to them, it'll suddenly be up to you to do all the research on the hardware required, pirate the software, make it all work, write step-by-step instructions, and be available on the phone the first ten times they try to do it
- Describing an apparently easy-to-fix problem in order to get you to visit, then revealing the true, massive, extent of the task once you're
onsite
Yep. That's why I don't do that sh*t any longer
Re:I usually get flamed for this (Score:3, Insightful)
You just described parenthood.
Re:I usually get flamed for this (Score:2, Informative)
Once upon a time I actually did work tech support. It was better than working for family, and the real tech support job was by far the worst "real" job I've ever had.
Of course most of my family are a bunch of assholes, so that might have something to do with it. Incidentally, the biggest ass
Ignorance of Windows is the Best Defense :) (Score:5, Insightful)
"I'm sorry, I don't know how that works."
Don't get me wrong, I make my living in tech. I code in between 8 and 12 languages (depending on how good my memory is that day), can play a medium grade Linux/Solaris guru when necessary, write web apps, architect large distributed systems, operate a wide variety of service provider and enterprise networking equipment, etc. I also like helping people who are having technical problems. But there's a big difference between being the IM of last resort for various Linux/Python,etc problems and having to deal with Windows users.
FireFox! (Score:2)
I will have your geek card back now.
Security vrs Familiarity (Score:5, Interesting)
However, whereas I'd like to give them a Linux box, they are used to using PCs with a WIndows 95 / XP interface from their PC and the local library. As they, especially my dad, have trouble getting to grips with new tools, I think I will have to compromise and install Windows for them.
I know that even after making it as secure as I can and giving them a quick list of don'ts (open attachements, etc) that it won't be as secure, but as they're both retired there is no business critical data there. I think that their ease of use will be more important than trying to move them away from Windows.
Solution that works (Score:3, Informative)
Firefox and Yahoo messenger (Score:2)
I will also be installing Yahoo messenger, because they are always complaining that we never answer emails - now they
While it's good to help family out... (Score:2, Funny)
"So, what sites you've been surfing lately, gramps ? "
Upgrade to XP Pro, adding flash card reader w/usb (Score:2)
I just got her into using Firefox a couple of weeks ago, after installing an earlier version months ago, only to see it was not being used. She must have
Re:Upgrade to XP Pro, adding flash card reader w/u (Score:2)
Non-patronising, doesn't spam the user with constant hand-holding, but incredibly simple - importing photos, organising them, printing and emailing them (even from Mozilla Thunde
Change the OS (Score:5, Interesting)
I will (for free) wipe MS Windows and install Linux on any friends machine but my days of providing free support for Bill G are over.
I find this cuts down on the support calls and I can then enjoy Thanksgiving.
Ed Almos
Budapest, Hungary
Re:Change the OS (Score:5, Funny)
A new hard drive (Score:2)
It doesn't stop with windows (Score:2)
What are we installing? (Score:3, Funny)
Here is what I'm installing.
what i do... (Score:2)
I've given up Windows support except for my parent (Score:2)
I've given up supporting anyone using Windows except for my parents, whose machine I have remote control over via UltraVNC and SSH (and only when I ask them to load it up - ZoneAlarm has to be given explicit permission to allow it through).
These days, working on a Windows problem is a bit like doing emergency heart surgery in a disease ridden hospital: you know you don't have a choice, but you know there will be more problems to come. And the patient may still die despite yo
Re:I've given up Windows support except for my par (Score:3, Funny)
Perhaps... (Score:3, Funny)
PearPC?
Re:Perhaps... (Score:2)
Remote accessing software anyone? (Score:2)
I use GoToMyPC. If I am at my parents house on Thanksgiving and they start griping and asking me to fix it I will go to there machine, log onto www.gotomypc.com , log into my account, download the java app that it runs on (I forget the size but it is small, 15 minutes on a 56k connection), install it and turn it on.
I will then go back to them and tell them to call me some evening next week and I will log on and fix it. This is Thanksgiving and I am not interested.
Parents use Linux (Score:4, Interesting)
I'll be upgrading them to Mandrake 10.1 official - they are already on Mandrake 10 and are extremely happy with it. Mother in law is on Mandrake 9.2 ,uncle in law Mdk 10, and my aunt is on - yes, Mandrake 10.
Just wondering - if lots of other Slashdotters are doing this kind of thing, are we now seeing the growth of the Linux desktop amongst non-tech users, which just isnt covered by Gartner style estimates.
Getting rid of my parents windows machines...... (Score:2)
Erm... do what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Even if they need to do something really difficult, like install new drivers, it's just a double click on the setup file. I tried installing ATI drivers in Mandrake a few months ago. I'll let you all know how it went when I figure out how to get X working again. I can't even get my parents off IE and onto something much better, like Firefox, because it's still not quite there. Example: My Mum had to fill in this great big form to submit an offer to a potential client, and Firefox couldn't do it because of the javascript involved. Okay, that's probably shoddy coding on the form's part and nothing to do with Firefox, but my Mum doesn't care about who's in the wrong when she's got to do something vital for her business and it won't work. My dad has been working for what was ICL in the 70s and he's still got limited, at best, technical ability. But when he gets into Excel or Visio he knows how to do all the graphs and charts, so who am I to take that away from him? How's he going to figure out how to do an organisational chart in calm pastel management colours in something else? I know I could use Crossover Office or something, but why go to all the hassle of setting up Linux to emulate Windows, when I can just use Windows without a problem.
I don't like MS all that much, and they get up to some pretty dodgy stuff sometimes, but there's a reason why everyone keeps buying their stuff aside from the fact that they bought up all the competition. Some of it is actually fairly good.
Re:Erm... do what? (Score:2)
TightVNC windows service (Score:3, Interesting)
No more running home to fix anything... even printer diagnostics can usually be fixed via phone (unless its some weird HW anomaly..)
I won't set up a dependant (on me) user without it.
Oh, and don't forget cygwin & sshd... helpful for when you don't have crazy bandwidth, and its a simple fix, checkup, whatever..
Got mum to buy a Mac (Score:2, Interesting)
Thanksgiving (Score:2)
A Useful Analogy (Score:5, Interesting)
So, I tell them that I'm like an engineer. I do the computer equivalent of building bridges, designing cars, etc. What they're asking me to do is the computer equivalent of repairing their car after the engine compartment started smoking. They wouldn't expect a bridge designer to be able to fix their car engine, and so they shouldn't expect a programmer to be able to fix their computer. Once they get the idea that I might be able to do something, but it's really not the kind of thing I'm good at, everybody is a lot happier.
Solution (Score:3, Informative)
The result?
- No more support calls
- The first computer my Dad's enjoyed using
- No more rats nest of cables
The other result is when it was time to get a laptop for myself - after using OS X, it had to be a PowerBook.
Antivirus and Firewall First (Score:3, Informative)
Seriously though, the first thing which goes on is the latest McAfee Stinger [nai.com]. When that's wiped out most of the viruses, I uninstall their out-of-date Norton - so many people don't realise that the major antivirus vendors are on a rental model and just buy the product and expect it to last forever. Then Avast! Personal Edition [avast.com] goes on, and the PC is fully scanned. After that comes Spybot [safer-networking.org] and Ad-Aware [lavasoft.nu]. I use both because each product has its stregths and weaknesses. All of this is done form a CD burnt with the latest patterns so no internet connectivity happens until their PC has been cleaned. And then Sygate Personal Firewall [sygate.com] completes the mix of security products.
After that comes Thunderbird and Firefox, The GIMP [gimp.org] and Audacity [sf.net] (if they are into that sort of thing. And of course we musn't forget IrfanView [irfanview.com].
If I were a carpenter.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Would they do it without offering to pay me?
Sure, dad (Score:4, Funny)
Not all that different (Score:3, Interesting)
Charge them a symbolic fee, (Score:5, Insightful)
0. Don't waste your time explainig to them what the problem is because they don't have the patience to listen to the entire explanation you are more than willing to give to them.
1. After fixing a problem you are blamed for ALL the other problems that will happen following the origial problem.
2. Unless a speed improvement is more than twice on a benchmark, people over 50 will not notice it, so don't waste time and money switching them from ATA66 to ATA133.
3. Any CPU over 1.5Ghz + 512M is an overkill.
Ask a slightly better question... (Score:3, Insightful)
I have my parents already running OO and Moz, and they don't really use their computer for much else.
If not for that goddamned "Chip's Challenge", I could change them over to Linux today and they wouldn't even notice.
Anyone know of a Linux port/clone of CC? A Flash or SW version would suffice...
Re:Ask a slightly better question... (Score:3, Informative)
Cleaning off spyware (Score:3, Funny)
So please, if you are going to clean spyware up for your family, you should know the following:
1. As good as Spybot and Ad-aware are, neither is comprehensive. Run both. And you're still probably going to be missing some things (see #3 below).
2. After getting spybot and ad-aware installed with the latest updates, set a system restore point (if the OS supports it and system restore is working), and then *reboot into safe mode*. Running the cleaners in safe mode is much more effective than with all the junk running, and you won't end up rebooting and re-scanning to get open files. If you get warnings that there are files that can't be cleaned because of a running process, use a boot cd of some sort to delete it manually... much faster than running a re-scan.
3. After Spybot and Adaware *think* the machine is clean, use the "advanced" tools in spybot to examine the BHO, ActiveX, Startup and LSP lists to be sure. Don't recognize something? Google it. Chances are, if it's not in google, it doesn't belong. If it's a startup item, be sure to delete the target file (or files). The Spybot ActiveX deletion feature doesn't work so well... delete those manually from the location referenced. This usually is necessary to get the trojans and viruses that Adaware and spybot won't warn about.
4. Reboot, connect to the Internet, and then go back and check advanced tools in spybot to see if anything got added to the startup, BHO or other lists... changed entries are bolded, so it's easy to tell.
Then, and only then, will you know that the machine is clean. Keeping it clean is another issue, but at least this will get it done.
-R
My mom has a Mac (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm giving my mom my eMac (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry but linux is not easy to use as a desktop.
I'm going to set her up with my old eMac with Panther and 1GB Ram on it and load Office for Mac 2004. We can get a .MAC account for her to setup and share photos with relatives and use the Virex anti-virus software to protect the windows owning relatives for macro viruses in office documents she might send/receive.
Oh and all this crap about software not updating. I call bullshit. I've only had that happen to me with the IM manager proteus because I had not kept up to date with it but that was only with the check for updates function. Installing an updated version is as simple as going to the website and downloading the dmg disk image and dragging the app package into the Applications directory.
No problems with printers either, you don't need to have a desktop printer to print from applications.
Be glad its only the computer... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Ad-Aware (Score:4, Informative)
Re:They're computer's a bit old, so... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Cut the lead off (Score:2)
(yes, I made a similar mistake once...)
Avast! is better (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Mozilla (Score:3, Informative)